The sprint discussion thread

> 2533274808578327;13903:
> The average kill time is a combination of various different scenarios yes?

It’s an average of the total runtime of all 15 games divided by the total number of kills. So for Halo 3 that was 4,769 seconds divided by 1,383 kills, equaling 3.44 seconds.

Sorry, if it wasn’t clear, that number isn’t the average amount of time it takes to kill an opponent, it’s the average amount of time between kills for every player in the game. Or to put it another way, the average amount of time it takes for the scoreboard to increase by one for either team.

> 2533274913398097;13904:
> > 2533274808578327;13903:
> > The average kill time is a combination of various different scenarios yes?
>
> It’s an average of the total runtime of all 15 games divided by the total number of kills. So for Halo 3 that was 4,769 seconds divided by 1,383 kills, equaling 3.44 seconds.
>
> Sorry, if it wasn’t clear, that number isn’t the average amount of time it takes to kill an opponent, it’s the average amount of time between kills for every player in the game. Or to put it another way, the average amount of time it takes for the scoreboard to increase by one for either team.

Ah ok, that makes much more sense now.

Very interesting as well, thank you, and quite ironic.

[deleted]

> 2535464451695009;13906:
> Thinking about it, it makes sense that the sandbox shouldn’t be considered when making the map, but only after the basic design is finished. With Halo 3, I don’t think we’ve ever saw more than two or theee different Equipment pickups on maps. We didn’t even have to use them to win the match. Maybe this design philosophy is what made those maps so memorable and fun to play compared to the last 3 games’ maps.
>
> Going back on topic, judging from how Halo 5 was recieved and talked about by casual gamers ever since its release, I think it’s time for 343 to bring something fresh into the FPS market that very much resembles classic Halo, but isn’t completely the same. I’m not saying to do Halo 4 or Halo 5 amounts of revamp, but to do something much more in line with classic Halo, but is still fresh for everyone. Pure arena shooters are an extremely niche market, judging by how those games sell and are populated on Steam (steamcharts and steamspy), so I don’t think a pure classic Halo title would be the way to go just yet. Maybe it’ll happen down the line with Halo 7 if Quake Champions and Unreal Tournament 4 don’t blow away our sales and population retention expectations, but not just yet. Not for Halo 6.

The sandbox can be considered in terms of how the developers would want things to play out, like having a sniper rifle on the map and making obvious points on the map one can snipe from. But that doesn’t need as much weigh as players are complete equals once they spawn into a normal game (players can customize as much as they please after all). Things can be predictable with flow because of no sprint and then there are spots where tricky or creative maunvers can be executed. Do you think that jump on Lockout from top middle to the snipe tower was an accident people?

Halo is not a true arena shooter though. It has some elements like even starts and weapon pick ups but it very much does it’s own thing, fill a niche that was undoubtedly popular. It’s still a unique game that hasn’t been done yet these days.

> 2533274808578327;13863:
> > 2594261035368257;13862:
> > > 2533274825830455;13853:
> > > You’re missing the point. You don’t design a large map because you want a large map, but because you want to limit the movement of players, and you can’t do that on a smaller map because players can move so fast and jump so far. But that’s only because you want that sort of gameplay. But if you want really frantic, chaotic gameplay, you will restrict yourself to a small box. Now, we can all express our distaste for such chatoic gameplay because it has little depth. On the flip side, it could be kind of fun if you’re not trying to have a serious match.
> > >
> > > That’s just an example, I hope you get the point. We have a certain idea, the vision, of how a match of Halo should play due to years of experience. But someone who’s not interested in that sort of gameplay could come up with very different map design decisions. “Good gameplay” doesn’t exist in a vacuum. We decide what we want, and make our design decisions based on that.
> >
> > This simple statement brings to light (more clearly at least and obviously IMO) why I dislike sprint. It’s addition has allowed and I think even promoted, on some level, a shift in gameplay to a more serious and competitive momentum and nearly disallowed much of the possibility of having a chaotic, fun and frantic option.
>
> I like what you say in your post, but this part bothers me just a little. It’s not that going competitive was bad, classic Halo was so simple, yet complex and modular that people can have their cake and eat in too, in so many different ways. I competed with Halo 2 in tournaments but I still just loved to have super silly and chaotic games as well.
>
>
>
>
> > 2594261035368257;13862:
> > Personally, I think that the addition of sprint is the single biggest mistake ever made for the Halo series.
>
> Oh how I wish we could like just an individual piece of text numerous times.

Just for the sake of clarification, I think you may have misinterpreted something… which isn’t hard to do considering that, in my attempt to condense a lot of thoughts into a post that doesn’t go TL;DR, what’s meant to be said doesn’t always translate very well into how it’s read.

In any case, I have no problem with the going competitive concept or those who like to play competitively. I don’t see it as “bad”. I do feel that sprint is more conducive to the competitive aspect and as I said, it seems to diminish the possibility of the more frantic, chaotic and for those who enjoy that kind of gameplay… fun… aspects. Hence, the “bad” I was referring to wasn’t the move towards more competitive gameplay itself, but the fact that sprint seemed to facilitate that move at the expense of its opposite. It certainly isn’t the only facilitating factor of course, but my feel is that it’s possibly the only one that disturbs the balance of potential between more competitive and more chaotic fun, if that makes sense. This seems to go “hand in hand” with your comment about being able to have your cake and eat it too. (Thanks BTW, now I’m hungry for cake).

> 2594261035368257;13908:
> In any case, I have no problem with the going competitive concept or those who like to play competitively. I don’t see it as “bad”. I do feel that sprint is more conducive to the competitive aspect and as I said, it seems to diminish the possibility of the more frantic, chaotic and for those who enjoy that kind of gameplay… fun… aspects. Hence, the “bad” I was referring to wasn’t the move towards more competitive gameplay itself, but the fact that sprint seemed to facilitate that move at the expense of its opposite. It certainly isn’t the only facilitating factor of course, but my feel is that it’s possibly the only one that disturbs the balance of potential between more competitive and more chaotic fun, if that makes sense. This seems to go “hand in hand” with your comment about being able to have your cake and eat it too. (Thanks BTW, now I’m hungry for cake).

It might be a surprise to tell you then but a ton of pro/competitive players want sprint gone just as much as any casual member would too. It does nobody any good.

> 2533274808578327;13909:
> > 2594261035368257;13908:
> > In any case, I have no problem with the going competitive concept or those who like to play competitively. I don’t see it as “bad”. I do feel that sprint is more conducive to the competitive aspect and as I said, it seems to diminish the possibility of the more frantic, chaotic and for those who enjoy that kind of gameplay… fun… aspects. Hence, the “bad” I was referring to wasn’t the move towards more competitive gameplay itself, but the fact that sprint seemed to facilitate that move at the expense of its opposite. It certainly isn’t the only facilitating factor of course, but my feel is that it’s possibly the only one that disturbs the balance of potential between more competitive and more chaotic fun, if that makes sense. This seems to go “hand in hand” with your comment about being able to have your cake and eat it too. (Thanks BTW, now I’m hungry for cake).
>
> It might be a surprise to tell you then but a ton of pro/competitive players want sprint gone just as much as any casual member would too. It does nobody any good.

It actually surprises me less than you may think. I’m aware (via posts in here) that there are some pro/competitive players that don’t like sprint. After all, just because they’re skilled enough to be a pro doesn’t mean they do what they do just for the money or just because they’re skilled enough, or like being called a pro. They first had to enjoy the game and obviously had enough fun to put in the time to get as good as they are. Their definition of fun will vary just as much as anyone else’s and speaking to the competitive aspect, I think Halo was just fine before sprint ever showed up.

> 2594261035368257;13910:
> I think Halo was just fine before sprint ever showed up.

We hope one day, but 343 seem dead set in their ways.

> 2533274913398097;13902:
> > 2533274825830455;13853:
> > Interesting. That spreadsheet is pretty convincing even with such a little amount of data, because the differences are so drastic. Keep up the good work. More data to test our beliefs is what we always need.
>
> I thought you might like to see the final product:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BkmA26fzSDaq4DFcAiKvXf3PazW4aAEoUZewlUm0trw/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I’ll make a full post later, but the basics are this:
>
> Halo 3’s matches last, on average, 2 minutes and 36.05 seconds less than Halo 5’s matches.
>
> The average time between kills in Halo 3 is 3.44 seconds. The average time between kills in Halo 5 is 5.04 seconds.
>
> Side note: While skimming through Halo 5 Truth matches, I caught a funny quote by Strongside describing Truth as “Midship on steroids, because Halo 5 is so fast paced.” It’s actually the opposite.

It’s pretty crazy when you normally think H3 is pretty slow. I hope someone who can actually do something sees this cause this is why sprint and other abilities like thrust in its current form for example aren’t good for the game.

> 2535456416152038;13883:
> Having a playlist without sprint would feel different like the old halos and that’s not necessarily bad. It would probably feel more strategic.

In my opinion this just isn’t enough. I like to play mostly highly competitive modes like FFA, but for fun play social modes. A mode that’s just slayer with classic style movement and a low player count isn’t what I’m looking for.

> 2535428931873471;13913:
> > 2535456416152038;13883:
> > Having a playlist without sprint would feel different like the old halos and that’s not necessarily bad. It would probably feel more strategic.
>
> In my opinion this just isn’t enough. I like to play mostly highly competitive modes like FFA, but for fun play social modes. A mode that’s just slayer with classic style movement and a low player count isn’t what I’m looking for.

why not? If your not interested then oyu don’t play it but it would be cool to have it in as a game mode to others.

> 2535456416152038;13914:
> > 2535428931873471;13913:
> > > 2535456416152038;13883:
> > > Having a playlist without sprint would feel different like the old halos and that’s not necessarily bad. It would probably feel more strategic.
> >
> > In my opinion this just isn’t enough. I like to play mostly highly competitive modes like FFA, but for fun play social modes. A mode that’s just slayer with classic style movement and a low player count isn’t what I’m looking for.
>
> why not? If your not interested then oyu don’t play it but it would be cool to have it in as a game mode to others.

Don’t you think players like that want a new full complete game as well? Complete with in studio maps purpose built for that gameplay style, new sandbox elements and mechanics?

> 2535456416152038;13914:
> > 2535428931873471;13913:
> > > 2535456416152038;13883:
> > > Having a playlist without sprint would feel different like the old halos and that’s not necessarily bad. It would probably feel more strategic.
> >
> > In my opinion this just isn’t enough. I like to play mostly highly competitive modes like FFA, but for fun play social modes. A mode that’s just slayer with classic style movement and a low player count isn’t what I’m looking for.
>
> why not? If your not interested then oyu don’t play it but it would be cool to have it in as a game mode to others.

Obviously i would want to play, but I’d like to play a Halo game with developer made maps and a more classic movement system in every gamemode, not one playlist with forge maps.

> 2533274913398097;13902:
> > 2533274825830455;13853:
> > Interesting. That spreadsheet is pretty convincing even with such a little amount of data, because the differences are so drastic. Keep up the good work. More data to test our beliefs is what we always need.
>
> I thought you might like to see the final product:
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BkmA26fzSDaq4DFcAiKvXf3PazW4aAEoUZewlUm0trw/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I’ll make a full post later, but the basics are this:
>
> Halo 3’s matches last, on average, 2 minutes and 36.05 seconds less than Halo 5’s matches.
>
> The average time between kills in Halo 3 is 3.44 seconds. The average time between kills in Halo 5 is 5.04 seconds.
>
> Side note: While skimming through Halo 5 Truth matches, I caught a funny quote by Strongside describing Truth as “Midship on steroids, because Halo 5 is so fast paced.” It’s actually the opposite.

Wow these are some excellent hard numbers mate. Looks like we can finally put the nail in coffin on the “faster pace” thing? I knew when I replayed H2 and 3 on the MCC, that they were more intense. I did not have time to search for weapons, I was near always shooting, getting shot at, or chasing an enemy who is about to pick up a power weapon. Good to see the numbers reflect this.

Also, would be great I feel you sent these stats to youtubers who have been at the front of this debate on YouTube. e.g The ACTMAN and Favyn, they would love this data I reckon.

> 2533274875084332;13917:
> > 2533274913398097;13902:
> > > 2533274825830455;13853:
> > > Interesting. That spreadsheet is pretty convincing even with such a little amount of data, because the differences are so drastic. Keep up the good work. More data to test our beliefs is what we always need.
> >
> > I thought you might like to see the final product:
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BkmA26fzSDaq4DFcAiKvXf3PazW4aAEoUZewlUm0trw/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I’ll make a full post later, but the basics are this:
> >
> > Halo 3’s matches last, on average, 2 minutes and 36.05 seconds less than Halo 5’s matches.
> >
> > The average time between kills in Halo 3 is 3.44 seconds. The average time between kills in Halo 5 is 5.04 seconds.
> >
> > Side note: While skimming through Halo 5 Truth matches, I caught a funny quote by Strongside describing Truth as “Midship on steroids, because Halo 5 is so fast paced.” It’s actually the opposite.
>
> Wow these are some excellent hard numbers mate. Looks like we can finally put the nail in coffin on the “faster pace” thing? I knew when I replayed H2 and 3 on the MCC, that they were more intense. I did not have time to search for weapons, I was near always shooting, getting shot at, or chasing an enemy who is about to pick up a power weapon. Good to see the numbers reflect this.
>
> Also, would be great I feel you sent these stats to youtubers who have been at the front of this debate on YouTube. e.g The ACTMAN and Favyn, they would love this data I reckon.

Latenight also as well, he wants sprint gone too.

[deleted]

> 2535464451695009;13919:
> > 2533274808578327;13907:
> > The sandbox can be considered in terms of how the developers would want things to play out, like having a sniper rifle on the map and making obvious points on the map one can snipe from. But that doesn’t need as much weigh as players are complete equals once they spawn into a normal game (players can customize as much as they please after all). Things can be predictable with flow because of no sprint and then there are spots where tricky or creative maunvers can be executed. Do you think that jump on Lockout from top middle to the snipe tower was an accident people?
> >
> > Halo is not a true arena shooter though. It has some elements like even starts and weapon pick ups but it very much does it’s own thing, fill a niche that was undoubtedly popular. It’s still a unique game that hasn’t been done yet these days.
>
> I should have clarified that I was thinking of the sandbox being more in line with everything else that isn’t weapons or grenades. Like I said, I know the basics of map design, and that everything that players do that doesn’t happen through glitches is almost 100% of the time designed to be like that.
>
> Sure it’s not a “true” arena shooter, but it’s the only thing close to arena on consoles besides Gears of War, so I’ll just call it an arena shooter to simplify things. Classic Halo still emphasized movement, but in a different way than traditional arena shooters. Sure pre-Reach Halo’s a unique game too, but who’s to say it won’t fail with the new casual audience? The casual audience seems to like their gimmicks, judging from the most successful shooters of the current generation on both major consoles. Maybe a new classic-pure Halo will succeed, but as of right now? It’s completely unknown to me if it’ll actually succeed past Halo 5’s position on Xbox Live’s Most Played list.
>
> The only thing close to being “pure” and being successful is Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and even then, it’s only gotten bigger on PC with the inclusion of microtransaction cosmetics. That’s not the only reason it got bigger, but it is one of the bigger parts of why it did. The other big one is heavy promotion of the 2013 DreamHack tournament by SteelSeries, who most likely began their partnership with DreamHack back then, and Valve, who crowdfunded the tournament through microtransactions and owns Steam obviously. If it didn’t have all those updates that fixed the game and introduced the game to the casual Steam user, the game would have sat around 50000-75000 concurrent users on average as of right now (judging from SteamSpy’s statistics on CSS and CS1.6) with very little tournament support. The console versions of CSGO failed after the first week or so because the developers couldn’t update as frequently as on PC, and left the game feeling very different from what CS originally was. I see classic Halo with a gimmick being more successful than Halo 5 in its current state.
>
> I’m just basing everything I have on what’s available to the public, and what has worked before for other franchises that have been in somewhat similar states. Doom disappeared for a while, but it’s sitting near the bottom of Steam’s recent AAA catalog with 1000 concurrent players on average. Gears of War went back to its roots after Judgement’s disappointment, but it’s in the same situation as Halo 5. It’s stagnant for a niche game. This isn’t anything against classic Halo, since I stopped buying Halo products right after 4 came out and the multiplayer disappointed me, but the current market seems to favor gimmicks much more than “pure shooters.” Like I said, pure Halo can succeed, but it has to be down the line when the market begins to open up to “less gimmicky” games. Introduce them to multiplayer games with very few gimmicks, such as Quake Champions, then blow them away with the return-to-form of Halo multiplayer.

I don’t think it’s simply gimmicks that are enticing players, just pure quality. It’s easy to tell when a game is well crafted and attempts to be different from the others.

And classic Halo is simple, yet intricate. It has easy to understand game play but the various sandboxes and their elements make it all engaging. The series is almost modular so people can come up with nearly anything, especially with Forge mode getting better and better.

> 2535464451695009;13919:
> EDIT: I also have to mention the resurgence of Halo: Reach right after backwards compatibility was added, but it’s an outlier since the MCC is still supposedly broken.

Yes well, Reach also isn’t on the MCC as well, and it was Bungie’s last Halo game. The news would have sparked interest too.

can u shoot or recharge shields while sprinting? and does it happen to everyone that if they are sprinting and get shot the start walking or just my spartan? keep sprinting
spartan!

> 2535428931873471;13916:
> > 2535456416152038;13914:
> > > 2535428931873471;13913:
> > > > 2535456416152038;13883:
> > > > Having a playlist without sprint would feel different like the old halos and that’s not necessarily bad. It would probably feel more strategic.
> > >
> > > In my opinion this just isn’t enough. I like to play mostly highly competitive modes like FFA, but for fun play social modes. A mode that’s just slayer with classic style movement and a low player count isn’t what I’m looking for.
> >
> > why not? If your not interested then oyu don’t play it but it would be cool to have it in as a game mode to others.
>
> Obviously i would want to play, but I’d like to play a Halo game with developer made maps and a more classic movement system in every gamemode, not one playlist with forge maps.

true. Agreed

> 2533275013212593;13921:
> can u shoot or recharge shields while sprinting? and does it happen to everyone that if they are sprinting and get shot the start walking or just my spartan? keep sprinting
> spartan!

no, and thats one of the many problems with sprint.