With the new Motion-Sensor from Proving Grounds now in effect Sprint has been perfectly optimized for Halo in my opinion.
Not letting shields recharge while in sprint, quickening the kill time, and not letting walking show up on radar have been the gameplay changes Halo needed to make sprint feel right (in my opinion).
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> 2716903703776124;13824:
> With the new Motion-Sensor from Proving Grounds now in effect Sprint has been perfectly optimized for Halo in my opinion.
>
> Not letting shields recharge while in sprint, quickening the kill time, and not letting walking show up on radar have been the gameplay changes Halo needed to make sprint feel right (in my opinion).
A lot of things have to be considered or changed for this mechanic to be “right”, is that the hallmark of a good addition for a game series that was awesome without it?
> 2535464451695009;13825:
> > 2535428931873471;13823:
> > > 2535464451695009;13800:
> > > tsassi’s not beating around the bush. Basically, they’re just saying that we have to think critically about why we believe our position to be true, and use evidence to support it rather than just stating out our opinion. They’ve done this occasionally for both sides of the sprint debate.
> > >
> > > Anyways, I was going to post later about how we have to stop circle-jerking this thread, but I guess I’ll address it now since I’m replying to you and don’t want to bump this thread if no one posts after me. I don’t really think we should just keep on talking about just flat out removing sprint anymore since we’re going to end up making this an echo-chamber, which it’s kinda been leaning towards for quite a while. Since there’s an incredibly low chance of 343 removing sprint, based on what Frankie said about Halo 5 being the “base of the games” going forward, how about we talk about “improving” or changing sprint for non-sprinters, and to separate future Halo games from the competition (mostly Call of Duty and Titanfall)?
> > >
> > >
> > > As much as I want sprint gone, we need to talk about some sort of middle ground, just so 343 doesn’t keep ignoring all the “Remove Sprint” and “Sprint Sucks” requests, rants, and stuff like that for the third game in a row and possibly think negatively about us classic-style fans. I feel like a transitional phase, much like Reach to Halo 5, would be much better, and less jarring, for the old and new community (mostly for the new community) than Halo 6 straight up removing sprint out the gate. I’m still finalizing my “free-time” thoughts on my proposition, however. It’s close, and some of its ideas are floating around on my posts, but I can’t think of a way to fix a big problem I thought about, which involves “universality.”
> >
> > How can we not “circle jerk” this thread? The fact that sprint has been in the last 3 halo games is why we continue to have this argument. Many of us have mentioned multiple ways to improve Halo that aren’t just “remove sprint” There’s only so much depth possible in an argument like this.
>
> Then let’s discuss ways to fix sprint since we’ve practically driven “remove sprint” to the ground and continue to do so. I’m just saying to keep conversation fresh while being constructive, and the last few pages haven’t been very constructive with reiteration of old ideas. The same arguments to remove sprint with new faces is what I’m seeing. How about something new for a change? How about some middle ground discussion since literally everyone’s all “You’re either with us or against us?” Like I said, I want sprint gone, but let’s change things up for once.
>
>
> I noticed that two others also replied to me, and I’ll discuss whatever you two talked about later since I’m not home yet.
As he said, it’s been 3 games now, and soon this mechanic will have been in more games than the original hailed trilogy. The course of the developers trying to make sprint work for Halo has been driven to the ground instead. There is simply no reason to think about a middle ground.
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Sprint needs to stay, the game would be slow whitout it.
> Removing sprint completely would be beneficial, but realistically, how likely is it for 343 to remove sprint for Halo 6? If they’re still being pressured by shareholders and executives, then most likely not. Might as well discuss ways to reduce its impact on core gameplay instead of just repeating the same thing and the same opinions for another 7 years.
Then be the change you want to see and make some suggestions. It’s one thing to say “we should be doing this instead of that”, but it’s another thing to actually start the discussion you want to see. If you have any ideas you want people to discuss and disect on this thread, then start throwing out ideas. It doesn’t help if you continue to bump the -Yoink!- that you complain about and don’t want to see.
@FightingChances But there has been very little opinions, we have a basis for debate, the gameplay. Then anti sprinters have come up with critical thinking on how it is a negative aspect to it. Pro sprinters have tried to do critical thinking but they were shot down with proof both visually and verbally. We can’t go beyond analytical proof to keep things interesting, we can only keep fighting for what is right.
Ah I see then, but regardless this is a thread and I’m perfectly fine with continually beating this horse if it brings attention. We still have players with their one off statements like the one 2 posts above, not knowing what is really within these pages.
I think my last reply to your newest post might answer your 3rd paragraph.
[deleted]
Some people were talking about the difference in pace between Midship / Heretic and Truth. Here is a side-by-side video of a Halo 3 MLG Slayer match on Heretic and a Halo 5 HCS Slayer match on Truth.
Final scores are 50-39 for the Halo 3 match and 50-40 for the Halo 5 match.
Total match time in Halo 3 was 4:48. Total match time in Halo 5 was 8:19.
Now obviously a comparison between one match for each game does not prove anything. And even if it did, there’s no proof that it’s because of Spartan Abilities, though I think it would strongly suggest that.
I’d really like to find a list of Halo 3 MLG Heretic matches and a list of Halo 5 Truth matches and see how they compare, and if there is any consistent trend.
> 2533274887665513;13821:
> I think one of my biggest problems with the abilities is how they change map design. I have been forging for a long time and me and my friends agree that it isn’t just about where you can go, it’s where you can’t go that equally defines map flow. Again, I think predictability is incredibly important on maps. Having to make clear choices on which path to take depending on the situation makes maps interesting to me. Map design is all about making interesting choices for the player. Should I go here to control the power position or should I go down there to get a power weapon, or do I instead go around there to flank the enemy? As a map designer you want to present a clean cut reason as to why someone should travel somewhere and when. I think the more successful maps take this into account versus a map that is just an area to fight in with no clearly defined pathing, positions or sight lines.
>
> Because of the increased movement speed, strength of automatics, certain power weapons and spartan charge I can no longer create tight close quarters areas on maps without them playing incredibly badly. To me, classic maps were interesting because they had a range of close, mid and long range areas. In Halo 5 every area has to be fairly open to support the sandbox.
>
> Map flow is far harder to control now since players can make ridiculously long jumps. Flow is defined by how players move around a map along the set out paths. When you design a map, you might not want every sight line to be a path. You may want interaction between two spaces but not a connection. If you want one position to fire on another without the player being able to travel directly between the two, you can’t achieve that without making these two areas incredibly far apart. If you try and make a close quarters arena like Empire, everyone can get to anywhere from everywhere. The flow is incredibly uncontrolled. This is partly due to cluttered map design but the abilities are a huge influence on the problem. Restriction is just as important as freedom in a Halo map. When you have complete freedom of movement, there is little strategy in the movement or ability to predict where players will be.
You’ve brought up an excellent point. Forging maps now would be a pain as forgers need to account for sprint much like how 343 has to when they create dev-arena maps. I am not a forger myself, hence why I did not really think about it, but honestly this alone makes me realise now why there are so few “good” forge arena maps. Not just accounditng for speed, cover also needs to be spaced out due to sprint.
Seriously good work bringing this into the discussion, as I am certain there is no way to counter this, as objectively, it would take far, far longer to create a "good’ (working/good flow) arena forge map WITH sprint, as opposed to without it. Thats just sprint…not accounting for clamber, which would also require tweaking.
> 2533274879887605;13829:
> Sprint needs to stay, the game would be slow whitout it.
Nope. Overwatch, Doom etc are all faster than Halo 5 and do not have sprint. Just because you cannot imagine an fps being fast without sprint, it does not mean it is impossible. Go watch some MLG Halo 2 or Halo 3 gameplay on youtube, you will see it is very fast paced. I’d go as far as to say it is faster than Halo 5. Its not that hard to bump up the base speed and call it a day.
On an unrelated note, I do not understand 343’s reasoning when it comes to Sprint.
Halo 4’s multiplayer was rightly criticised on 3 main points: Sprint, Loadouts, and Ordnance. 343 looked at these criticisms and removed Loadouts and Ordnance in Halo 5, but for some reason, they kept sprint. It’s like they’re saying, “Yeah, I know you think you don’t want sprint, but really you do.” I do not understand that mindset.
And if the idea is that the general gaming public expects to be able to sprint, then why are Loadouts gone? Call of Duty has loadouts. Destiny has loadouts. Titanfall has loadouts. Gears of War has loadouts. Shouldn’t they expect to be able to change the weapons they start with as well?
> 2533274913398097;13836:
> On an unrelated note, I do not understand 343’s reasoning when it comes to Sprint.
>
> Halo 4’s multiplayer was rightly criticised on 3 main points: Sprint, Loadouts, and Ordnance. 343 looked at these criticisms and removed Loadouts and Ordnance in Halo 5, but for some reason, they kept sprint. It’s like they’re saying, “Yeah, I know you think you don’t want sprint, but really you do.” I do not understand that mindset.
>
> And if the idea is that the general gaming public expects to be able to sprint, then why are Loadouts gone? Call of Duty has loadouts. Destiny has loadouts. Titanfall has loadouts. Gears of War has loadouts. Shouldn’t they expect to be able to change the weapons they start with as well?
Your points make sense, and I do agree. However, Halo is its own game. 343 need to understand this. Oddly enough, they know from prototype feedback that sprint works better and would be better received, but stubbornly grasp onto sprint purely for a marketing reason. Why? Well, go back a few years, and look at ALL trailers/ads for FPS games. Notice something?? They ALL show of aiming down sights, especially some form of Reflex/Holographic sight that looks familiar to CoD fans, instead of creating or using sights that are not in other games. This is an example of what the fps industry is doing, they have all become very generic. Fortunately, Battlefield 1 took a step away from this, however is let down by that darned premium rubbish, lack of content and micro transactions. If 343 can make Halo 6 a classic Halo, old fans who left after Halo 4 and did not buy an Xbox One due to this (i know many friends who completely switched to PC gaming due to losing love for Halo) would return. Fans of the fps genre will have something fresh to play and learn. Do 343 not realise many players who play CoD now, used to be avid players of Halo 3? But when Halo lost what made it unique starting with Reach, they permanently stuck with COD.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> What reasons can you think of then tsassi?
Changes in trends, aging, Halo isn’t immune to any of these things.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> How is it not true though?
Because sprint doesn’t make maps bigger, the designers’ vision does.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> It is slower because the map is bigger than before, again unless you are sprinting but then you are unable to engage. There’s a lot of open area that there wasn’t before making some spots really bad to be in for fighting compared to before.
On the flip side, players are able to move faster, which allows a player to cover a larger part of the map in a given amount of time, which incerases the likelihood of encountering an opponent. The large amount of open area also increases the likelihood of having a direct line of sight at an opponent. Both of these are effects that can increase the rate of encounters, and therefore possibly the pace of gameplay. You see, it’s not as simple as you think it is.
The history of this argument that sprint makes the game slower is quite interesting. I remember years ago arguing that sprint doesn’t make the game faster, because the maps have been designed with certain pace as a goal, not a fixed size. Since then, somewhere along the line someone decided that it’s not enough to argue that sprint doesn’t actually achieve its main claimed “benefit”, but that it actually does the opposite and makes the game slower. And while I’ve never been completely opposed to this argument, I’ve always been doubtful about it for the exact same reason I’m doubtful about sprint making gameplay faster: maps are designed for a given pace, not for size.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> Of course we know which side, we have prior games to base it on.
Of course you can claim to know, and I can claim to know that there’s a pink unicorn at the center of the Earth. Doesn’t mean there actually is.
Seriously speaking, you don’t know, you believe. It’s possible that you have some line of reasoning to support your belief, but ultimately you can’t prove that your belief is true. To start with, knowing the answer would mean that you have a quantitative definition of both strategy and predictability. That already would make me very happy because I’ve repeatedly failed at coming up with one. Then you would also have to be able to apply these definitions to given two games to rank them. That’d make it even more impressive. But alas, you have no such thing.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> They have proof though tsassi, people have shown context of said proof, we see what the players what and what they think about spartan abilities.
If there is proof, then show me the proof. Of course, there actually is no proof. There are just arguments that appeal to the poster’s intuition, but those arguments are not proofs. A proof takes a set of definitions, and/or previously proven statements, and formally shiows that another statement logically follows from those. There are no proofs in this discussion.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> And above all besides my bolded responses because I can’t do a fancy quote in quote thing
Protip: click the “[/]” button in the top right corner of the post bocks to get into source code view. There you can move the quote tags around as you wish.
> 2533274808578327;13820:
> I think you are looking for some kind of proof that is like a revelation. Almost godly and ethereal in nature but the pudding is more simple and grounded in reality.
No, not really. I’m just looking for a formal proof. If it’s not one, it’s at best a convincing argument, and in an absolute best case scenario (though rarely in this discussion) it might even have enough evidence supporting it that believing otherwise would just be silly, but it’s not a proof.
Actually, I’m not expecting anyone to prove anything. I really just wish that everyone would be critical towards their own arguments, understand where they are making a leap in logic, try to think how they could improve their arguments, and ultimately understand the limitations of their arguments (i.e., that a proof is not possible). I have a long history of being dissatisfied with the quality of my arguments against sprint. I hope others would, too.
> 2716903703776124;13824:
> With the new Motion-Sensor from Proving Grounds now in effect Sprint has been perfectly optimized for Halo in my opinion.
>
> Not letting shields recharge while in sprint, quickening the kill time, and not letting walking show up on radar have been the gameplay changes Halo needed to make sprint feel right (in my opinion).
Sprint and map movement with it has been even more nerfed. That’s three times since Halo 4, and one game only, though the latter is so far not universal.
Halo 4 > Halo 5 Beta
Beta > Retail
Retail > Proving grounds
The latter being an indirect nerf, or buff to BMS. Sprint keeps getting nerfed and nerfed, what point is there to keep it?
tsassi and bryanneo:
I think that a part of the “Map size” argument is how effective \ usable sprint is.
As tsassi said, i343 map developers could have made smaller maps than we have now, question is then how usable sprint would be on them.
If we take Swat as an example, sprinting isn’t that good of an idea, and last time I played it I recall not sprinting much, as well as others having the same idea. That then again is in my skill range.
Smaller maps could lead to more “pants down” moments and as a result sprint isn’t useful. Why would a player default feature be implemented if it in most maps would be less useful than desired?
> 2533274873066506;13805:
> > 2533274825830455;13804:
> > > 2533274808578327;13803:
> > >
> >
> > If you want to be honest, the most you can say is that there are many arguments against sprint that you find compelling.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274808578327;13803:
> > >
> >
> > That sprint is had for Halo is the conclusion you’d like to draw, not the premise of your argument. If you take it as your premise, you’re just begging the question. But as I’ve said, there are good arguments against sprint. They just aren’t rigorous enough to be called proofs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274808578327;13803:
> > >
> >
> > Please, let’s not go there.
>
> The problem with sprint in Halo isn’t just because of how it’s handled, but through an established formula that the first games created. If you know, Bungie wanted to add sprint, but due to tight schedules, and because of that it wasn’t featured, and some of the maps in Halo 2 were kinda built to for it. But I think it’s Halo 3’s formula that a majority of the fans want, a closed quarters, arena-style of gameplay, in a way Halo established the general Halo formula.
The Mongoose was also something cut from Halo 2 but later implemented into Halo 3.
Halo 2’s sprint was said to have been cut due to an undesired map pacing. Chaotic gameplay if I recall the wording.
Sprint was tested for Halo 2, but I have never heard of it even being tested for Halo 3.
Not even ODST which could have had it, didn’t.
One would think that it’d have been tested for Halo 3 if time constraints really were the only issues with sprint for Halo 2.
> 2533274825830455;13816:
> It’s really up to the map designer to decide how large a map is. The importance of sprint only comes to play when the designer wants to set some pace of gameplay for the map.
This, in my opinion, is splitting hairs. It’s true that nothing is stopping the developer from creating a Midship-sized map, in the same way that there’s nothing stopping a developer from placing 9 Rocket spawns on one side of a symmetrical map and making every respawn point face a wall. The real issue is whether a map would play well if you did that. And from my experience in playing and watching Halo 5, a Midship-sized map does not play well in this game.
> 2533274795123910;13839:
> I think that a part of the “Map size” argument is how effective \ usable sprint is.
> As tsassi said, i343 map developers could have made smaller maps than we have now, question is then how usable sprint would be on them.
> If we take Swat as an example, sprinting isn’t that good of an idea, and last time I played it I recall not sprinting much, as well as others having the same idea. That then again is in my skill range.
>
> Smaller maps could lead to more “pants down” moments and as a result sprint isn’t useful. Why would a player default feature be implemented if it in most maps would be less useful than desired?
> 2533274913398097;13841:
> This, in my opinion, is splitting hairs. It’s true that nothing is stopping the developer from creating a Midship-sized map, in the same way that there’s nothing stopping a developer from placing 9 Rocket spawns on one side of a symmetrical map and making every respawn point face a wall. The real issue is whether a map would play well if you did that. And from my experience in playing and watching Halo 5, a Midship-sized map does not play well in this game.
I don’t disagree that small maps could be worse, although I don’t see how smaller maps are necessarily worse with sprint than larger maps. It seems like you’re really just trading one set of issues for another set of issues. Comparing a Midship sized map (which really isn’t even that small) to an obviously ridiculous design decision is certainly unwarranted.
> 2533274825830455;13842:
> Comparing a Midship sized map (which really isn’t even that small) to an obviously ridiculous design decision is certainly unwarranted.
Sorry, just exaggerating the point to make it clearer. But Midship is quite a small map, even in Halo 2/3. I posted this comparison between them in the last page: ViewSync - Multiple YouTube Viewer
The Heretic match is non-stop. aPG spawns, he starts shooting, and he basically doesn’t stop until he’s dead.
To be specific, Halo 3 ended 50-38 and Halo 5 ended 50-40. The Halo 3 match lasted 4 minutes and 48 seconds, and the Halo 5 match lasted 8 minutes and 19 seconds. I’m working on collecting more data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BkmA26fzSDaq4DFcAiKvXf3PazW4aAEoUZewlUm0trw/edit?usp=sharing. I may have to redo the Halo 5 matches though, because they’re from when the map had a Fuel Rod and I’d prefer to collect from only matches with the Energy Sword. As I said in the original post, this doesn’t prove that spartan abilties are the sole reason for the slower pace, but it does show that Halo 5 has a slower pace than at least Halo 3, and in my opinion, gives a reasonable amount of evidence to support that.