The sprint discussion thread

Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.

I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.

The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.

It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.
>
> I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.
>
> The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.
>
> It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.

Sprinting is something everyone can do, so is going prone, blind firing, wall hugging, corner leaning, block melees, engage in hand-to-hand fighting.
None of these are things our in-game spartan super soldier are capable of doing, which everyone actually is capable of doing. I could list more things that could also be used as game mechanics, which everyone is able to do.
However, perhaps that’s the issue, how super are you if everyone else is capable of doing it? I mean, if you look at the Marines in the other games, you’re out-pacing them all with your weapon up. They’re not keeping up with you.
That sounds rather super to me, being able to move at fast speeds while keeping your weapon up and accurately hit with it.

No one is saying Halo shouldn’t evolve, there are however quite a few thinking that Halo shouldn’t become what most other shooters are, “modern shooter”, but instead “evolve” in its own path.

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.

So why can’t Spartans go prone? Take a piss? Cook a meal?

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.

Because the mechanic has major impacts on the gameplay. One could argue if they’re good or bad - so we do. Which is precisely what this thread is for.

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.

On the contrary: Spartans can sprint and shoot at the same time, with ridiculous accuracy and at higher speeds then what’s presented ingame. Forcing a Spartan’s weapon down for what is essentially a fast stroll to them goes completely against lore.

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.

Sprint is a mechanic that existed for decades. Long before Halo CE in 2001. Even Super Mario had sprint. There have always been games that included it and those who didn’t. Not having sprint is a stylistic choice. The recent Doom doesn’t have sprint. Nor does Overwatch (except for one character). It’s in no way a requirement for games in order to not be “outdated”. Never was.

> 2533274801176260;13526:
> > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.
>
> So why can’t Spartans go prone? Take a piss? Cook a meal?
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.
>
> Because the mechanic has major impacts on the gameplay. One could argue if they’re good or bad - so we do. Which is precisely what this thread is for.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.
>
> On the contrary: Spartans can sprint and shoot at the same time, with ridiculous accuracy and at higher speeds then what’s presented ingame. Forcing a Spartan’s weapon down for what is essentially a fast stroll to them goes completely against lore.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.
>
> Sprint is a mechanic that existed for decades. Long before Halo CE in 2001. Even Super Mario had sprint. There have always been games that included it and those who didn’t. Not having sprint is a stylistic choice. The recent Doom doesn’t have sprint. Nor does Overwatch (except for one character). It’s in no way a requirement for games in order to not be “outdated”. Never was.

Well, you would be wrong then. Sprint wasn’t the only thing I was referring to as outdated. So looks like we are through talking. Because they do indeed to be able to sprint.

> 2533274806679134;13524:
> Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.
>
> I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.
>
> The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.
>
> It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.

Inb4 everyone says lore shouldn’t affect gameplay. Edit: well it looks like I’m too late.

In all seriousness, it should, but only to a certain degree. For instance, it’d be dumb if the Spartans had shields in the gameplay, but not in the lore. The Spartans are so badass in the lore it’d be almost impossible to have that translate to the gameplay. However, I like sprint, and it makes it a bit more immersive for me.

> 2533274806679134;13527:
> > 2533274801176260;13526:
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.
> >
> > So why can’t Spartans go prone? Take a piss? Cook a meal?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.
> >
> > Because the mechanic has major impacts on the gameplay. One could argue if they’re good or bad - so we do. Which is precisely what this thread is for.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.
> >
> > On the contrary: Spartans can sprint and shoot at the same time, with ridiculous accuracy and at higher speeds then what’s presented ingame. Forcing a Spartan’s weapon down for what is essentially a fast stroll to them goes completely against lore.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.
> >
> > Sprint is a mechanic that existed for decades. Long before Halo CE in 2001. Even Super Mario had sprint. There have always been games that included it and those who didn’t. Not having sprint is a stylistic choice. The recent Doom doesn’t have sprint. Nor does Overwatch (except for one character). It’s in no way a requirement for games in order to not be “outdated”. Never was.
>
> Well, you would be wrong then. Sprint wasn’t the only thing I was referring to as outdated. So looks like we are through talking. Because they do indeed to be able to sprint.

We’re in the sprint thread, we’re talking about sprint.

-Tell someone they’re wrong and not telling them how or why
-Talk about other mechanics as outdated, yet do not talk in specific what they are. Shields? Crouch? What?
-Odd end sentence, I can’t make out what it means.

> 2533274806679134;13527:
> Well, you would be wrong then. Sprint wasn’t the only thing I was referring to as outdated. So looks like we are through talking. Because they do indeed to be able to sprint.

Well, I guess we are then. Because they do indeed need to be able to shoot while sprinting.

> 2533274801176260;13523:
> In the sense that there is one memorandum that holds highest authority over the meaning of the word? No. But most people still have a clear grasp of what an Arena shooter is. You’d be hard-pressed to find anybody claiming that Quake isn’t an Arena shooter but, say, Call of Duty is. The disagreement only starts when considering hybrid genres or games (which includes Halo and is probably the reason this issue pops up so oftern) and in very specific details of the games that ultimately only a very select few people consider to be an additional requirement (like the aforementioned hitscan/projectile debate or the question whether or not it has to be on PC to count). Just look at that “UT was not an Arena Shooter” thread we talked about. If you scroll down, they asked the users to give their very own definition of Arena shooters. And while their exact phrasing might differ, almost all of them mention the same criteria. (Except that one guy that names classes and kill-rewards as a requirement, whom I think is merely trolling.) That is still a definition, even if it wasn’t explicitly written down in a dictionary.
> One can’t just label anything an Arena shooter if one so pleases, is all I’m saying…

But no one’s labeling any random game arena shooter here. When I say people have different defitioins, I don’t mean that there’s some guy who thinks character customization is an important component of arena shooters. But even if you look at that thread, while there are some common themes that arise, such as pick-ups and fast movement, the range of these definitions varies a lot.

Take this for example:

> - good responsive movement and variety in movement techniques
> - good game pace that is not slow or boring (granted the players do affect this too)
> - responsive netcode that behaves as you’d expect
> - well thought out, fun maps
> - no RPG-style unlocks/levelling - real skill required’

This is quite vague with words like “good” and “fun”. The only really definitive statement is the one about unlocks. Without that point even something like Titanfall would be an arena shooter under this definition.

Then consider this:

> - Short matches (10-20 mins/match).
> - Dynamic matches (not 10-sec delays per spawn pick, like in TSD/SD).
> - Varied & Unique combat situations (=> Very distinct weapons).
> - Not promoting unlockables/cosmetics too much (having them is ok, excessively promoting them is not).
> - Medium-difficulty in killing opponents (one-shot-kill situations should only exist for head-shots or super-weapons).

The only bullet point here that agrees definitely with the previous one is the “no unlocks”. And again, that’s really the only point that prevents this from including a large number of games people don’t traditionally consider as arena shooters.

Then how about this:

> Fast-paced with depth in regard to movement
> Aim consistency (where you aim is where you fire)
> Emphasis on map control (whether it be power-ups or geography)
> Individual differences in players derived from personal attributes not class
> Level playing field from visibility to character traits (no leveling)

This is the first that’s actually restrictive by putting emphasis on movement and consistency of weapons. This is the first I could actually get behind (because the first two said nothing meaningful about gameplay). Note first appearance of equal starts as an important feature.

Then this (I omitted some remarks in parentheses to conserve space):

> - No gameplay interfering unlocks
> - Deep gameplay mechanics
> - Balanced weaponry
> - Fast paced
> - Biggest reward in arena FPS is personal skill progression

Again, no unlocks and fast pace as a common theme, but otherwise this is really vague. “Deep gameplay mechanics” and “balanced weaponry” is about as vague as it gets as those should arguably be a part of any game with weapons in it. It’s not like anybody wants a shallow and unbalanced game.

The next:

> - gameplay takes place in specific enclosed environments (arenas) - players have to use weapons and items placed around the map - all players in the game have the same abilities and stats on each spawn

Believe it or not, but this is only the second time pick-ups and equal starts are brought up as an important aspect. This is the first literal interpretation that talks about “enclosed environments (arenas)”, whatever that means.

I’m not going to go through all the definitions in the thread. This sample of the first few definitions just shows that the definitions vary from vary vague to reasonably restrictive. Some of these definitions agree on some things, but none of them can agree on any single thing. Some put emphasis on movement, and some on pace in general. Others don’t even mention either of those things, but instead consider map pick-ups and equal starts as important attributes. But these are, again, disregarded by others. I don’t claim that there aren’t common themes in some of these definitions, but I also feel like you’re underestimating the amount of variance all these have.

> 2533274825830455;13531:
> I’m not going to go through all the definitions in the thread. This sample of the first few definitions just shows that the definitions vary from vary vague to reasonably restrictive. Some of these definitions agree on some things, but none of them can agree on any single thing. Some put emphasis on movement, and some on pace in general. Others don’t even mention either of those things, but instead consider map pick-ups and equal starts as important attributes. But these are, again, disregarded by others. I don’t claim that there aren’t common themes in some of these definitions, but I also feel like you’re underestimating the amount of variance all these have.

They have this large amount of variance because the guy asking the question restricted the answers to five bullet points and ten words per point. So the users chose those which they felt most important. (Maybe they also intentionally wanted to add new points that other’s hadn’t mentioned yet.) This is an issue of hierarchy, not of inconsistency. Had they been allowed to make the list as long as they wanted, I have absolutely no doubt that most of them would have arrived at the same criteria, with maybe one or two bullet points differing.

The gist of the matter is that there is a clear definition of an Arena shooter. It might have never been explicitly written down in Wikipedia or Urban Dictionary or wherever, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. So you can’t just slap the label “Arena shooter” on any game out there, because, well, some of them just aren’t. Letting people arbitrarily redefine the term isn’t helping the discussion at all. I concede that probably the best course of action is to avoid the term in the first place and just specify the gameplay aspects you are talking about… but if the term does fall in conversation, you just use the most commonly accepted definition. And if someone elses vastly differs from it (like for example naming killstreaks as a requirement) you don’t just let them have their own way, just because they might “feel” differently about this topic - you educate them, in order to have a consistent basis for discussion.

As I said, for the past decade or so, astronomers have been disagreeing about what is and isn’t a planet, with the most prominent case probably being Pluto. But that doesn’t mean that it’s any less wrong if somebody calls the Sun (or any other star) a planet. In such a case, you don’t just let them have their own way because, oh well, even the experts can’t agree on a definition. Again, you educate them on the meaning of the word, so they don’t misuse it in the future.

Keep the sprint. There’s no going back once I’ve had the taste of the sprint.

> 2533274801176260;13532:
> They have this large amount of variance because the guy asking the question restricted the answers to five bullet points and ten words per point. So the users chose those which they felt most important. (Maybe they also intentionally wanted to add new points that other’s hadn’t mentioned yet.) This is an issue of hierarchy, not of inconsistency. Had they been allowed to make the list as long as they wanted, I have absolutely no doubt that most of them would have arrived at the same criteria, with maybe one or two bullet points differing.

I doubt it. Even if you give people completely free hands, you’re going to see significantly diverging opinions. The only thing common with the opinions is that all atttributes people list can usually be found in the quintessential arena shooters of the 90’s. However, which attributes people favor depends on the person.

> 2533274801176260;13532:
> The gist of the matter is that there is a clear definition of an Arena shooter. It might have never been explicitly written down in Wikipedia or Urban Dictionary or wherever, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. So you can’t just slap the label “Arena shooter” on any game out there, because, well, some of them just aren’t. Letting people arbitrarily redefine the term isn’t helping the discussion at all. I concede that probably the best course of action is to avoid the term in the first place and just specify the gameplay aspects you are talking about… but if the term does fall in conversation, you just use the most commonly accepted definition. And if someone elses vastly differs from it (like for example naming killstreaks as a requirement) you don’t just let them have their own way, just because they might “feel” differently about this topic - you educate them, in order to have a consistent basis for discussion.

You’re missing the point. Even if you don’t get to dictate what people should think is an arena shooter, the world isn’t going to end and people won’t suddenly be calling Mario Party an arena shooter just because you give them the freedom to. People know how to use language. Everyone has a vague idea of what an arena shooter is, but that’s not the same thing as a definition. Everyone agrees that Quake is an arena shooter, but that doesn’t mean they have the same definition. People have differing definitions, and that will become clear when you start to discuss things like whether Halo is an arena shooter or not.

> 2533274801176260;13532:
> As I said, for the past decade or so, astronomers have been disagreeing about what is and isn’t a planet, with the most prominent case probably being Pluto. But that doesn’t mean that it’s any less wrong if somebody calls the Sun (or any other star) a planet. In such a case, you don’t just let them have their own way because, oh well, even the experts can’t agree on a definition. Again, you educate them on the meaning of the word, so they don’t misuse it in the future.

It seems like you’re building yourself a bit of a strawman here. Nobody is calling Sun a planet here. This discussion started because you disagreed with someone who said Halo 5 is more of an arena shooter than Halo has ever been. There does not exist a commonly agreed upon definition of arena shooter that is strict enough to resolve this question. Yet you decided that you have the authority definitions to call their opinion wrong.

Sprint(and other abilities) ruin map design in Halo, and should never return. There is not a single original map in Halo Reach, 4, or 5 that will go down in history as a great Halo map along the lines Chillout, Hang em High, Prisoner, Rat Race, Lockout, Sanctuary, The Pit etc.

> 2533274806679134;13527:
> > 2533274801176260;13526:
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > Respectfully… Sprint is a function every one can do. Almost everyone can get up and sprint right now. It is silly, flat out silly and stupid to not have a Spartan, a super soldier not have the function in game to sprint.
> >
> > So why can’t Spartans go prone? Take a piss? Cook a meal?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > I don’t even understand, nor can I comprehend how this is even a discussion.
> >
> > Because the mechanic has major impacts on the gameplay. One could argue if they’re good or bad - so we do. Which is precisely what this thread is for.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > The Spartans in game need to catch up to the lore. They need to be fast, powerful, and stealthy. With a wide range of abilities such as Spartan Charge, Ground Pound, etc.
> >
> > On the contrary: Spartans can sprint and shoot at the same time, with ridiculous accuracy and at higher speeds then what’s presented ingame. Forcing a Spartan’s weapon down for what is essentially a fast stroll to them goes completely against lore.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274806679134;13524:
> > > It is 2017, NOT 2001. And Halo should evolve. Halo Combat Evolved was ground breaking in 2001. Those mechanics do not fly in today’s first person shooters.
> >
> > Sprint is a mechanic that existed for decades. Long before Halo CE in 2001. Even Super Mario had sprint. There have always been games that included it and those who didn’t. Not having sprint is a stylistic choice. The recent Doom doesn’t have sprint. Nor does Overwatch (except for one character). It’s in no way a requirement for games in order to not be “outdated”. Never was.
>
> Well, you would be wrong then. Sprint wasn’t the only thing I was referring to as outdated. So looks like we are through talking. Because they do indeed to be able to sprint.

Wow what a discourse. Gets his point argued against with common sense and logic. Calls the other guy wrong with literally zero proof and ends the discourse. It’s a thread on a subjective manner there is no definitive right or wrong. Maybe if you took your head out of the sand you’d realize that.

All his points still stand and Overwatch is still most places GoTY despite not having spring or other mechanics that modern gamers expect. Granted it isn’t purely a more arena style FPS, but it does utilize some aspects of arena shooters that are recognizable. No sprint being necessary, health pickups. Solid maps with good flow and verticality. Halo 5 doesn’t really have any of this. Health pickups I don’t care about, but “we should be able to sprint because we’re Spartans in the game” makes about as much sense as me saying you shouldn’t be able to repaid vehicles with a blowtorch or just a wrench in BF. Yea logically it makes sense because you can’t do that, but the games would SUCK so hard if you couldn’t. What we’re arguing here is that Halo would be more fun if 343 took sprint out, made everyone faster, and made the maps without sprint in mind. Literally nothing has changed with the game other than map design not requiring sprint and people are no longer punished for having to get somewhere in a decent time on a map that’s huge because sprint exists.

> 2533274813513633;13535:
> Sprint(and other abilities) ruin map design in Halo, and should never return. There is not a single original map in Halo Reach, 4, or 5 that will go down in history as a great Halo map along the lines Chillout, Hang em High, Prisoner, Rat Race, Lockout, Sanctuary, The Pit etc.

We’ve also seen the death of great asymmetrical maps. I don’t even think 343 have made any funny enough when high ground and Zanzibar/Last Resort are some of my favorite maps.

In my opinion, while sprint isn’t a major issue, it ruins the flow of the game. Sprint is just an artificial illusion mechanic that limits your ability to use your abilities. I’m not saying that we need to use the golden triangle 100%, but I feel like sprint throws of the pacing of Halo too much. On the arena shooter subject, I would say that Halo is sort of in-between arena shooters and tactical shooters. You use more team strategy in Halo than in an arena shooter, but less than in a tactical one, TTK in Halo is higher like arena shooters, rather than ultra low like in tactical ones. Even if you look at classic halo before sprint; it has movement faster than your average tactical shooter, but nowhere near as fast as arena shooters. In my opinion, halo is sort of the perfect blend of what makes each of those types of games good.

> 2533274831961512;13537:
> > 2533274813513633;13535:
> > Sprint(and other abilities) ruin map design in Halo, and should never return. There is not a single original map in Halo Reach, 4, or 5 that will go down in history as a great Halo map along the lines Chillout, Hang em High, Prisoner, Rat Race, Lockout, Sanctuary, The Pit etc.
>
> We’ve also seen the death of great asymmetrical maps. I don’t even think 343 have made any funny enough when high ground and Zanzibar/Last Resort are some of my favorite maps.

Great call on that. I absolutely loved playing Last Resort, and on a variety of game modes, something 343 has also failed it. Last Resort was viable in slayer, snipers, multi team, 1 flag ctf, 1 bomb etc.

I like sprinting

> 2533274960462661;13540:
> I like sprinting

Any particular reason why?

> 2533274964465607;13541:
> > 2533274960462661;13540:
> > I like sprinting
>
> Any particular reason why?

Cause I can run away if I’m in trouble

> 2533274960462661;13542:
> > 2533274964465607;13541:
> > > 2533274960462661;13540:
> > > I like sprinting
> >
> > Any particular reason why?
>
> Cause I can run away if I’m in trouble

Cause I can Spartan Charge :stuck_out_tongue: