The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> > > >
> > > > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
> > >
> > > The fall in sales began at Reach. Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how. Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.
> >
> > I actually brought this up yesterday. Halo 3 was the most played game in 2008 and 2009, the decline in sales and popularity didn’t begin until 2010 with the launch of Halo Reach. I loved Halo Reach, but it was not the game to base the new trilogy off. It was a misstep and 343i should have avoided it.
> >
> > There’s a lot of room to improve Halo 3, but the simple, “slow” and team based gameplay was one of the titles strong selling points to the casual and non FPS crowd. And the equal, predictable (tactical) gameplay made the it a solid competitive title. Rather than the more random, less predictable, more frantic nature of modern FPS games that is actually off putting to both the casual and competitive communities.
> >
> > Halo Reach, H4 and H5 add far more complexity and randomness to the games, I’d argue that each title actually adds in more and more as it goes along, and you can clearly see the titles suffering as a result. For me the argument between which is better, “classic or modern” is a no brainer. Classic was far better for the series. The only question left is whether or not the damage done by Halo Reach, H4, H5 and 343i can be reversed without things getting worse before they get better.
>
> I don’t think classic would farewell now days, bring a halo out without sprint, clamber and all that and alot of people would be bored very quickly, sure the harcore fanbase / competitive side would be happy but there simply isn’t enough of you to make enough money to keep the franchise going. ive played many custom games in halo 5 and i haven’t seen a single one without sprint, if it where that much of an issue someone would of made a popular game without it.
> i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.

There’s very little evidence for that theory though. With the last classic Halo game being released in 2007, and MCC being broken to bits (while actually it still sold around 5 million copies, which is not far from Halo 5’s 6ish million) it’s actually just speculation that a non-modern fps title, or a MP title without sprint would sell badly.

Splatoon for instance, sold 5 million copies also, on a console with only 20 million units sold. It is the furthest thing from a hyper competitive, sprint based, modern online shooter. Yet it found its own audience. The people who bought this title will be those who would actually enjoy some online MP action but have found the current titles far too boring, frantic or whatever.

If you notice I also mentioned that the new gameplay is actually off putting for casual and non-fps players too, and I mean that. A huge draw for Halo 3 was that people who have never touched an online MP title (and in my experience an FPS title) were picking up the game and enjoying it. The reason they could enjoy Halo 3 was because it was slow and predictable. It gave new gamers a chance to be eased in to the gameplay and the experience. The more random, the more complex a game becomes the less enjoyable a player will find the game because it takes far more time, skill and knowledge to understand the to be successful.

It’s actually Halo 5 that only appeals to the Hardcore. It only appeals to those who are already familiar with Halo or other online MP titles. For everybody else, the game is too complex.

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> > > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > > >
> > > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> > >
> > > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> >
> > Essentially yes. If the issue with not sprinting is not being able to quickly get back in to combat and effectively traverse the map (and avoid feeling slow) then why wouldn’t speeding up the normal movement speed achieve the same goal?
> >
> > Doing this would impart all the benefits of sprint with none of the issues the mechanic brings. Players are no longer forced to choose between engaging a player and either giving chase or retreating. They could continue combat whilst moving. Making combat the default. Moving wouldn’t be something you do instead of combat, but something you do while engaging in combat. It would reduce cat and mouse gameplay, and help promote team work because you can always help with cover fire or team shooting while also changing your position.
> >
> > There is also the matter of map design that and not just player speed that factors in to the pace of the gameplay, but that’s another, yet totally related, argument.
> >
> > (This is essentially the back bone argument to anti-sprint)
>
> The whole point of combat is deciding when to give chase, retreat or fight, you essentially want to remove the hurdles of an ability, imo it just makes it less exciting, it’ll make multi encounters completely one sided so when i come up against more than one player my odds of survival are slashed because if i walk away they can just keep up with me while shooting, with sprint i can outmanoeuvre, separate them and come out on top.

  1. why does there have to be hurdles?

  2. Yes, if the other team is moving as a team and using team work, and you are running around alone and are putting yourself in open positions that make you vulnerable, then why shouldn’t the other team deserve a kill?

  3. This randomness, and complexity is what I’m talking about. It makes the game less team based, less predictable (and therefore less tactical/competitive) and more open to abuse by lone wolf players. The knock on effect I’ve detailed in my other posts.

I’d argue the whole point of combat is to win your engagements. and I never said you couldn’t retreat or chase without sprint, only that you could do so while still engaging other players

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> > > > > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
> > > >
> > > > The fall in sales began at Reach. Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how. Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.
> > >
> > > I actually brought this up yesterday. Halo 3 was the most played game in 2008 and 2009, the decline in sales and popularity didn’t begin until 2010 with the launch of Halo Reach. I loved Halo Reach, but it was not the game to base the new trilogy off. It was a misstep and 343i should have avoided it.
> > >
> > > There’s a lot of room to improve Halo 3, but the simple, “slow” and team based gameplay was one of the titles strong selling points to the casual and non FPS crowd. And the equal, predictable (tactical) gameplay made the it a solid competitive title. Rather than the more random, less predictable, more frantic nature of modern FPS games that is actually off putting to both the casual and competitive communities.
> > >
> > > Halo Reach, H4 and H5 add far more complexity and randomness to the games, I’d argue that each title actually adds in more and more as it goes along, and you can clearly see the titles suffering as a result. For me the argument between which is better, “classic or modern” is a no brainer. Classic was far better for the series. The only question left is whether or not the damage done by Halo Reach, H4, H5 and 343i can be reversed without things getting worse before they get better.
> >
> > I don’t think classic would farewell now days, bring a halo out without sprint, clamber and all that and alot of people would be bored very quickly, sure the harcore fanbase / competitive side would be happy but there simply isn’t enough of you to make enough money to keep the franchise going. ive played many custom games in halo 5 and i haven’t seen a single one without sprint, if it where that much of an issue someone would of made a popular game without it.
> > i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.
>
> There’s very little evidence for that theory though. With the last classic Halo game being released in 2008, and MCC being broken to bits (while actually it still sold around 5 million copies, which is not far from Halo 5’s 6ish million) it’s actually just speculation that a non-modern fps title, or a MP title without sprint would sell badly.
>
> Splatoon for instance, sold 5 million copies also, on a console with only 20 million units sold. It is the furthest thing from a hyper competitive, sprint based, modern online shooter. Yet it found its own audience. The people who bought this title will be those who would actually enjoy some online MP action but have found the current titles far too boring, frantic or whatever.
>
> If you notice I also mentioned that the new gameplay is actually off putting for casual and non-fps players too, and I mean that. A huge draw for Halo 3 was that people who have never touched an online MP title (and in my experience an FPS title) were picking up the game and enjoying it. The reason they could enjoy Halo 3 was because it was slow and predictable. It gave new gamers a chance to be eased in to the gameplay and the experience. The more random, the more complex a game becomes the less enjoyable a player will find the game because it takes far more time, skill and knowledge to understand the to be successful.
>
> It’s actually Halo 5 that only appeals to the Hardcore. It only appeals to those who are already familiar with Halo or other online MP titles. For everybody else, the game is too complex.

I think the reason MCC sold that many copies is because it contained 4 games in one with the anniversary, I think halo 5 has its own audience now who don’t mind the abilities, check halo Reddit its constantly full of people sharing and enjoying halo 5 .

My point is though if halo without sprint is so important then grab halo 5 get a community together and start non sprint customs, but i don’t see any of that, I’m all for 343 making a non sprint playlist but it just seems the need for it is not much.
I don’t think anybody plays a game because its easy to master

I mostly stay on reddit now where 343 actively speak to the community more and theres nothing about sprint there.
basically if you want no sprint that badly you need to group together and make it so as its just not an issue in everyone elses eyes.

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> > > > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > > > >
> > > > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> > > >
> > > > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> > >
> > > Essentially yes. If the issue with not sprinting is not being able to quickly get back in to combat and effectively traverse the map (and avoid feeling slow) then why wouldn’t speeding up the normal movement speed achieve the same goal?
> > >
> > > Doing this would impart all the benefits of sprint with none of the issues the mechanic brings. Players are no longer forced to choose between engaging a player and either giving chase or retreating. They could continue combat whilst moving. Making combat the default. Moving wouldn’t be something you do instead of combat, but something you do while engaging in combat. It would reduce cat and mouse gameplay, and help promote team work because you can always help with cover fire or team shooting while also changing your position.
> > >
> > > There is also the matter of map design that and not just player speed that factors in to the pace of the gameplay, but that’s another, yet totally related, argument.
> > >
> > > (This is essentially the back bone argument to anti-sprint)
> >
> > The whole point of combat is deciding when to give chase, retreat or fight, you essentially want to remove the hurdles of an ability, imo it just makes it less exciting, it’ll make multi encounters completely one sided so when i come up against more than one player my odds of survival are slashed because if i walk away they can just keep up with me while shooting, with sprint i can outmanoeuvre, separate them and come out on top.
>
> 1) why does there have to be hurdles?
>
> 2) Yes, if the other team is moving as a team and using team work, and you are running around alone and are putting yourself in open positions that make you vulnerable, then why shouldn’t the other team deserve a kill?
>
> 3) This randomness, and complexity is what I’m talking about. It makes the game less team based, less predictable (and therefore less tactical/competitive) and more open to abuse by lone wolf players. The knock on effect I’ve detailed in my other posts.

to me it makes it a more unique and challenging experience and opens up more possibility of game play.

the game should be about skill not about numbers, there is less room for skill as all you have to do is point and shoot, no other manoeuvres except jumping and crouching.

its only randomness until you learn tactics, once you played with the abilities for awhile you prepare for every move they can do

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> > > > > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> > > > >
> > > > > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> > > >
> > > > Essentially yes. If the issue with not sprinting is not being able to quickly get back in to combat and effectively traverse the map (and avoid feeling slow) then why wouldn’t speeding up the normal movement speed achieve the same goal?
> > > >
> > > > Doing this would impart all the benefits of sprint with none of the issues the mechanic brings. Players are no longer forced to choose between engaging a player and either giving chase or retreating. They could continue combat whilst moving. Making combat the default. Moving wouldn’t be something you do instead of combat, but something you do while engaging in combat. It would reduce cat and mouse gameplay, and help promote team work because you can always help with cover fire or team shooting while also changing your position.
> > > >
> > > > There is also the matter of map design that and not just player speed that factors in to the pace of the gameplay, but that’s another, yet totally related, argument.
> > > >
> > > > (This is essentially the back bone argument to anti-sprint)
> > >
> > > .
> >
> > 1) why does there have to be hurdles?
> >
> > 2) Yes, if the other team is moving as a team and using team work, and you are running around alone and are putting yourself in open positions that make you vulnerable, then why shouldn’t the other team deserve a kill?
> >
> > 3) This randomness, and complexity is what I’m talking about. It makes the game less team based, less predictable (and therefore less tactical/competitive) and more open to abuse by lone wolf players. The knock on effect I’ve detailed in my other posts.
>
> to me it makes it a more unique and challenging experience and opens up more possibility of game play.
>
> the game should be about skill not about numbers, there is less room for skill as all you have to do is point and shoot, no other manoeuvres except jumping and crouching.
>
> its only randomness until you learn tactics, once you played with the abilities for awhile you prepare for every move they can do

It’s not very unqiue when every other online MP title plays the same.

I didn’t say it was about number, I said teamwork, which is a skill all of it’s own.

You avoided the complexity issue. The more complex a game is the more off putting it is.

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> > > > > > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > > > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fall in sales began at Reach. Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how. Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.
> > > >
> > > > I actually brought this up yesterday. Halo 3 was the most played game in 2008 and 2009, the decline in sales and popularity didn’t begin until 2010 with the launch of Halo Reach. I loved Halo Reach, but it was not the game to base the new trilogy off. It was a misstep and 343i should have avoided it.
> > > >
> > > > There’s a lot of room to improve Halo 3, but the simple, “slow” and team based gameplay was one of the titles strong selling points to the casual and non FPS crowd. And the equal, predictable (tactical) gameplay made the it a solid competitive title. Rather than the more random, less predictable, more frantic nature of modern FPS games that is actually off putting to both the casual and competitive communities.
> > > >
> > > > Halo Reach, H4 and H5 add far more complexity and randomness to the games, I’d argue that each title actually adds in more and more as it goes along, and you can clearly see the titles suffering as a result. For me the argument between which is better, “classic or modern” is a no brainer. Classic was far better for the series. The only question left is whether or not the damage done by Halo Reach, H4, H5 and 343i can be reversed without things getting worse before they get better.
> > >
> > > I don’t think classic would farewell now days,
> >
> > It’s actually Halo 5 that only appeals to the Hardcore. It only appeals to those who are already familiar with Halo or other online MP titles. For everybody else, the game is too complex.
>
> I think the reason MCC sold that many copies is because it contained 4 games in one with the anniversary, I think halo 5 has its own audience now who don’t mind the abilities, check halo Reddit its constantly full of people sharing and enjoying halo 5 .
>
> My point is though if halo without sprint is so important then grab halo 5 get a community together and start non sprint customs, but i don’t see any of that, I’m all for 343 making a non sprint playlist but it just seems the need for it is not much.
> I don’t think anybody plays a game because its easy to master

Much of the hype surrounding MCC was about being able to play the Classic games online again. The game and the classic gameplay had its own audience as well. They’ve just been beaten down by the sub par releases they’ve been given over the last 7 years.

No one is going to buy Halo 5 in hopes of playing Classic Halo. Those of us that enjoy Classic gameplay that still play have already set up clubs on MCC.

I didn’t say they were trying to master the game. I’m saying they need to be able to play the game to a certain standard to find it fun. When that learning curve is too steep players give up before they have reached a level in which they find it fun.

I’m all about making Halo fun again for the wider and classic audiences (political humour aside)

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> i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.

LOL
H5G might be the worst offender yet.
Yes, Reach and 4 had more armor ablities, but you only had one of them at a time. H5G essentially took most of them and handed them to the player all at the same time, and then some. It’s a Frankenstein of basically every modern fad mechanic conceivable, from Jetpacks (Stabilizer/Thruster) over ADS and sprint to AoE-abilities like Ground Pound and Charge.

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> > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > >
> > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> >
> > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
>
> The fall in sales began at Reach. Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how. Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.

The fall in sales began at Reach after Halo 3’s massive success. If I recall correctly Halo Reach still outsold Halo 4. Reach had a sales drop but not a significant one and still retained a population. Halo 4 just died and Halo 5 never even really got there.

> 2533274801176260;13295:
> > 2533274850895003;13294:
> > The fall in sales began at Reach.
>
> Which also had sprint as an armor ability in gamemodes with loadouts, and playlists without them (e.g. SWAT) defaulted to sprint as a spawn ability.
> At least back then, campaign was not scaled for sprint since the developers had to account for the player having different armor abilities.
>
>
> > 2533274850895003;13294:
> > Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how.
>
> Get shot / be close to death → Thrust then sprint away.
> It’s a reflex reaction. The is no “knowing when to use it”, at least not on a more complex level.
>
>
> > 2533274850895003;13294:
> > Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.
>
> Nothing in OG Halo prevents it from being a fast-paced shooter without sprint. In fact, CE to this day still is the fastest Halo game there is.
> Overwatch is merely an example for fast-paced shooters without sprint, since 343 and a huge chunk of their target audience cannot grasp this concept, even though the evidence is in their face…

This. I’d also like to add I threw in Overwatch because it is an extremely accessible shooter with great competitive options while still being extremely fun for casuals where Halo 4 was too gimmicky and CoD-like to be competitive and Halo 5 is hypercompetitive, even in the “social modes” I am very much aware that Overwatch is a MOBA-like shooter, but that doesn’t stop it from being fast paced without sprint which is my entire point. Their map design allows near constant contact something we continuously say, yet keep getting ignored on.

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> > > > > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> > > > >
> > > > > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> > > >
> > > > Essentially yes. If the issue with not sprinting is not being able to quickly get back in to combat and effectively traverse the map (and avoid feeling slow) then why wouldn’t speeding up the normal movement speed achieve the same goal?
> > > >
> > > > Doing this would impart all the benefits of sprint with none of the issues the mechanic brings. Players are no longer forced to choose between engaging a player and either giving chase or retreating. They could continue combat whilst moving. Making combat the default. Moving wouldn’t be something you do instead of combat, but something you do while engaging in combat. It would reduce cat and mouse gameplay, and help promote team work because you can always help with cover fire or team shooting while also changing your position.
> > > >
> > > > There is also the matter of map design that and not just player speed that factors in to the pace of the gameplay, but that’s another, yet totally related, argument.
> > > >
> > > > (This is essentially the back bone argument to anti-sprint)
> > >
> > > The whole point of combat is deciding when to give chase, retreat or fight, you essentially want to remove the hurdles of an ability, imo it just makes it less exciting, it’ll make multi encounters completely one sided so when i come up against more than one player my odds of survival are slashed because if i walk away they can just keep up with me while shooting, with sprint i can outmanoeuvre, separate them and come out on top.
> >
> > 1) why does there have to be hurdles?
> >
> > 2) Yes, if the other team is moving as a team and using team work, and you are running around alone and are putting yourself in open positions that make you vulnerable, then why shouldn’t the other team deserve a kill?
> >
> > 3) This randomness, and complexity is what I’m talking about. It makes the game less team based, less predictable (and therefore less tactical/competitive) and more open to abuse by lone wolf players. The knock on effect I’ve detailed in my other posts.
>
> to me it makes it a more unique and challenging experience and opens up more possibility of game play.
>
> the game should be about skill not about numbers, there is less room for skill as all you have to do is point and shoot, no other manoeuvres except jumping and crouching.
>
> its only randomness until you learn tactics, once you played with the abilities for awhile you prepare for every move they can do

Uh Spartan charge removes skill since it gets target assist. And no it is still random when you learn how to use it because there’s a gigantic variety of tactics they can employ with sprint. So much I argue you can’t fully prepare for it. It isn’t like classic shooters where they only had limited options and could use them to either flee or turn the tables. You’re also saying all these different things and not giving any explanation as to how these scenarios occur in-game.

> 2533274801176260;13309:
> > 2533274923746051;13300:
> > i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.
>
> LOL
> H5G might be the worst offender yet.
> Yes, Reach and 4 had more armor ablities, but you only had one of them at a time. H5G essentially took most of them and handed them to the player all at the same time, and then some. It’s a Frankenstein of basically every modern fad mechanic conceivable, from Jetpacks (Stabilizer/Thruster) over ADS and sprint to AoE-abilities like Ground Pound and Charge.

I’d also like to add they were like “we had a hard time deciding whether or not sprint should be in the game,” and then proceeded to attach a super gimmicky Spartan ability to it. Like hey people already hate sprint let’s make it more infuriating!

13312

> 2533274923746051;13302:
> > 2547348539238747;13301:
> > > 2533274923746051;13298:
> > > > 2533274804424245;13291:
> > > > > 2535429516640149;13288:
> > > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > > >
> > > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> > >
> > > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> >
> > Essentially yes. If the issue with not sprinting is not being able to quickly get back in to combat and effectively traverse the map (and avoid feeling slow) then why wouldn’t speeding up the normal movement speed achieve the same goal?
> >
> > Doing this would impart all the benefits of sprint with none of the issues the mechanic brings. Players are no longer forced to choose between engaging a player and either giving chase or retreating. They could continue combat whilst moving. Making combat the default. Moving wouldn’t be something you do instead of combat, but something you do while engaging in combat. It would reduce cat and mouse gameplay, and help promote team work because you can always help with cover fire or team shooting while also changing your position.
> >
> > There is also the matter of map design that and not just player speed that factors in to the pace of the gameplay, but that’s another, yet totally related, argument.
> >
> > (This is essentially the back bone argument to anti-sprint)
>
> The whole point of combat is deciding when to give chase, retreat or fight, you essentially want to remove the hurdles of an ability, imo it just makes it less exciting, it’ll make multi encounters completely one sided so when i come up against more than one player my odds of survival are slashed because if i walk away they can just keep up with me while shooting, with sprint i can outmanoeuvre, separate them and come out on top.

I completely disagree because that wasn’t how early Halo was played. It was about smart movement and map control. You get caught out you die. Sprint negates a lot of that. Without it, it becomes a battle of skill and wit. You against them, who aims better, who uses terrain better is rewarded and wins. You’re relying on sprint to do the work for you to outmaneuver them and that’s the issue. If you sprint away and I can’t stop you I can’t chase because I simply won’t catch you and, even if I could, I still have to stop to shoot you if we run the same speed ergo if you make a mistake you aren’t always 100% punished. I find that far more boring that the slim possibility if outmaneuvering someone with sprint. The entire premise of Halo was “two men enter and one man leaves, the lesser one is respawning.” Sprint just stamps this into the ground.

13313

> 2533274923746051;13300:
> > 2547348539238747;13299:
> > > 2533274850895003;13294:
> > > > 2533274831961512;13292:
> > > > > 2533274850895003;13284:
> > > > > > 2535455477282651;13283:
> > > > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> > > >
> > > > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
>
> I don’t think classic would farewell now days, bring a halo out without sprint, clamber and all that and alot of people would be bored very quickly, sure the harcore fanbase / competitive side would be happy but there simply isn’t enough of you to make enough money to keep the franchise going. ive played many custom games in halo 5 and i haven’t seen a single one without sprint, if it where that much of an issue someone would of made a popular game without it.
> i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.

What is your proof? That there too few Halo 5 no sprint custom games? Maybe because most of those who dislike Halo 5 didn’t even bother buying an Xbox One let alone Halo 5. You are making a baseless claim. You can say that once a proper sprintless Halo game came out with its own maps and matchmaking. Then we can talk about if such game would fail or not.

13314

> 2533274923746051;13306:
> My point is though if halo without sprint is so important then grab halo 5 get a community together and start non sprint customs, but i don’t see any of that, I’m all for 343 making a non sprint playlist but it just seems the need for it is not much.

Ever heard of Reclaimer Settings or Evolved Settings (or whatever they are called now)? There’s an entire community out there creating an ability-less gameplay from H5Gs sandbox, forging maps and constantly tweaking settings.
Meanwhile, ElDewrito, a multiplayer game born from the leaked Halo Online beta, recreates basically the Halo 3 game on PC. Because of where it came from, it does have sprint in the game code, but is disabled on most servers to allow for classic gameplay.
So the demand is definitely there, if players go to such huge lengths just in order to build by themselves what 343 fails to provide.

> 2533274923746051;13306:
> I mostly stay on reddit now where 343 actively speak to the community more and theres nothing about sprint there.

Wrong.

13315

Also the fact most of us aren’t willing to spend so much on a console and game with no support on sprintless Halo at all. Think people are satisfied with just playing on forged maps? There’s also weapon balance which is far from perfect when turning off the Spartan Abilities.

13316

> 2533274831961512;13310:
> The fall in sales began at Reach after Halo 3’s massive success. If I recall correctly Halo Reach still outsold Halo 4. Reach had a sales drop but not a significant one and still retained a population. Halo 4 just died and Halo 5 never even really got there.

As far as I know it did, but only in the long run. For most of its lifetime, Halo 4 outsold Reach by a slight margin, but in the end Reach caught up with its successor. I don’t know when this happened, probably Halo 4’s long-term sales took a hit when the game was included in the MCC while Reach’s got a boost from the backwards compatibility. H5G just flat-out failed, no way to sugarcoat it.
Player-wise that’s an entirely different story, but that should be discussed in its respective thread.

13317

> 2533274923746051;13306:
> > 2547348539238747;13304:
> > > 2533274923746051;13300:
> > > > 2547348539238747;13299:
> > > > > 2533274850895003;13294:
> > > > > > 2533274831961512;13292:
> > > > > > > 2533274850895003;13284:
> > > > > > > > 2535455477282651;13283:
> > > > > > > > No one actually dislikes the original style of gameplay but a lot of people dislike Halo 5’s gameplay.
> > > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with the original gameplay. No one loses.
> > > > > > > > Make the next Halo game with spartan abilities and a good chunk of the current population and buyers stop playing Halo. Also the half the of the fan base they lost don’t come back.
> > > > > > > > Think about it. Microsoft care about money so they want more people to buy it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some people actually dislike the old styled Halos because they were slow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bump up base movement speed and/or make maps smaller. Halo 5 can still be judged pretty slow, but most people are oblivious to the fact that sprint just makes it “feel faster” rather than it actually being faster. It still stands to reason that Halo has been losing out on sales over time which shows the new direction isn’t working very well. Halo 4 sold fast and then died. MS didn’t even bother releasing figures for 5, which is bad and the only figure they released they had to include additional inflators just for Halo 5 to touch Halo 3. I still think this can be partially attributed to lack of a balance between competitive and casual as well, but I do honestly hate sprint and find there’s no real decent argument that hasn’t been cut down a thousand times before in this thread whereas many only want sprint to stay because “they like it.” Overwatch is a prime example of a game a ton of people enjoy. It is fast paced without sprint, easy to pick up, but hard to master, and knows their audience. 343 just cannot nail down anything that will make the community mostly happy and that’s why I’m terrified for Halo Wars and Halo 6.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fall in sales began at Reach. Sprint adds a new element to the game because of knowing when to use it and how. Overwatch is a different story because of the type of game it is and skills that allow more speed and/or verticality.
> > > >
> > > > I actually brought this up yesterday. Halo 3 was the most played game in 2008 and 2009, the decline in sales and popularity didn’t begin until 2010 with the launch of Halo Reach. I loved Halo Reach, but it was not the game to base the new trilogy off. It was a misstep and 343i should have avoided it.
> > > >
> > > > There’s a lot of room to improve Halo 3, but the simple, “slow” and team based gameplay was one of the titles strong selling points to the casual and non FPS crowd. And the equal, predictable (tactical) gameplay made the it a solid competitive title. Rather than the more random, less predictable, more frantic nature of modern FPS games that is actually off putting to both the casual and competitive communities.
> > > >
> > > > Halo Reach, H4 and H5 add far more complexity and randomness to the games, I’d argue that each title actually adds in more and more as it goes along, and you can clearly see the titles suffering as a result. For me the argument between which is better, “classic or modern” is a no brainer. Classic was far better for the series. The only question left is whether or not the damage done by Halo Reach, H4, H5 and 343i can be reversed without things getting worse before they get better.
> > >
> > > I don’t think classic would farewell now days, bring a halo out without sprint, clamber and all that and alot of people would be bored very quickly, sure the harcore fanbase / competitive side would be happy but there simply isn’t enough of you to make enough money to keep the franchise going. ive played many custom games in halo 5 and i haven’t seen a single one without sprint, if it where that much of an issue someone would of made a popular game without it.
> > > i personally think halo 5 has found the sweet spot with movement and abilities not too much not too little.
> >
> > There’s very little evidence for that theory though. With the last classic Halo game being released in 2008, and MCC being broken to bits (while actually it still sold around 5 million copies, which is not far from Halo 5’s 6ish million) it’s actually just speculation that a non-modern fps title, or a MP title without sprint would sell badly.
> >
> > Splatoon for instance, sold 5 million copies also, on a console with only 20 million units sold. It is the furthest thing from a hyper competitive, sprint based, modern online shooter. Yet it found its own audience. The people who bought this title will be those who would actually enjoy some online MP action but have found the current titles far too boring, frantic or whatever.
> >
> > If you notice I also mentioned that the new gameplay is actually off putting for casual and non-fps players too, and I mean that. A huge draw for Halo 3 was that people who have never touched an online MP title (and in my experience an FPS title) were picking up the game and enjoying it. The reason they could enjoy Halo 3 was because it was slow and predictable. It gave new gamers a chance to be eased in to the gameplay and the experience. The more random, the more complex a game becomes the less enjoyable a player will find the game because it takes far more time, skill and knowledge to understand the to be successful.
> >
> > It’s actually Halo 5 that only appeals to the Hardcore. It only appeals to those who are already familiar with Halo or other online MP titles. For everybody else, the game is too complex.
>
> I think the reason MCC sold that many copies is because it contained 4 games in one with the anniversary, I think halo 5 has its own audience now who don’t mind the abilities, check halo Reddit its constantly full of people sharing and enjoying halo 5 .
>
> My point is though if halo without sprint is so important then grab halo 5 get a community together and start non sprint customs, but i don’t see any of that, I’m all for 343 making a non sprint playlist but it just seems the need for it is not much.
> I don’t think anybody plays a game because its easy to master
>
> I mostly stay on reddit now where 343 actively speak to the community more and theres nothing about sprint there.
> basically if you want no sprint that badly you need to group together and make it so as its just not an issue in everyone elses eyes.

Reddit is awful, people will neg you for anything, ANYTHING vs 343 it current halo. Makes me glad waypoint doesn’t have that crap.

anyways, what audience does h5 have? I’ve seen the trend where each game progressively drops in sales, by the millions at that. That’s no joke and shows something is wrong. You then have many people in here talk about to many playlists being an issue because of the bad pop, the ranks being messed up and matchmaking people because there’s not enough, ect ect ect. I just can’t support any current halo game until they can get the arrow to go up instead of down for a change. Again, they’re losing people by the MILLIONS! Something is broken.

to your second paragraph: the evolved settings are where you’d see most play non sprint, and no sprint was a big part of it being made. Truth be told a no sprint playlist on 343 maps (cuz they’d do it) would be pointless, they’re not scaled to work together among some other things I could list. The demand probably won’t be there anymore because 7+ million of the fan base has left by now, so of course only the people who like it will be here to support sprint. It’s why you also see much less talk if how great h3,2,1 were and more along the lines if reach, 4 and 5. Out with the old, in with new.

13318

> 2533274923746051;13302:
> The whole point of combat is deciding when to give chase, retreat or fight, you essentially want to remove the hurdles of an ability, imo it just makes it less exciting, it’ll make multi encounters completely one sided so when i come up against more than one player my odds of survival are slashed because if i walk away they can just keep up with me while shooting, with sprint i can outmanoeuvre, separate them and come out on top.

How does the removal of sprint prevent you from doing any of these? I was chasing, retreating, fighting and outmanouvering enemies in CE and 2 long before the sprint mechanic was even introduced to shooters, let alone shoehorned into Halo. Because of the higher (average) TTK in earlier titles it was also much easier to just kill groups of players you encounter. Those odds of survival you speak of are so low because of sprint, as the enhanced mobility required the TTK to be lowered while Aim Assist and Bullet Magnetism were raised in order to be able to kill off sprinting players…

13319

> 2533274923746051;13298:
> > 2533274804424245;13291:
> > > 2535429516640149;13288:
> > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> >
> > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
>
> so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> removing sprint would be the removal of the fight or flight feeling imo
> to sprint you have to give up your weapons, remove sprint and you all just keep walking at the same speed theres no thrill to it.
> if i meet 3 players on my own i would first try a few lucky shots then retreat using sprint and then they would sprint meaning weapons down meaning i have a chance to outmanoeuvre them.

I don’t get any thrill from sprinting from a fight, personally… Because it’s easy to do. It’s something anybody can do on a whim. Takes very little effort. You’re telling me you wouldn’t get more of a thrill from actually having to use your brain to escape engagements? You can outmaneuver opponents in past Halos as well, it just requires significant forethought. Sprint didn’t introduce fight or flight to Halo, it just makes the flight part far easier.

I want to display significant skill and feel satisfaction from escaping a fight where I’m at a disadvantage, but to each their own.

13320

> 2533274804424245;13319:
> > 2533274923746051;13298:
> > > 2533274804424245;13291:
> > > > 2535429516640149;13288:
> > > > Sprint is a very important tactical advantage for people who can you use it, and is, for me, and integral part of Halo 5
> > >
> > > For you it may be integral but by definition, it really isn’t. Ever heard of the Halo 5 Evolved settings? People have removed sprint and upped the base movement speed to sprint speed (5% faster, actually) and believe it or not (with some other minor settings tweaks): it doesn’t break the game. In fact, quite a few people who’ve thoroughly tested it in 4v4 think it’s superior to default Halo 5.
> >
> > so instead of sprint what you want is your spartan to be continuously sprinting but able to shoot at the same time?
> > removing sprint would be the removal of the fight or flight feeling imo
> > to sprint you have to give up your weapons, remove sprint and you all just keep walking at the same speed theres no thrill to it.
> > if i meet 3 players on my own i would first try a few lucky shots then retreat using sprint and then they would sprint meaning weapons down meaning i have a chance to outmanoeuvre them.
>
> I don’t get any thrill from sprinting from a fight, personally… Because it’s easy to do. It’s something anybody can do on a whim. Takes very little effort. You’re telling me you wouldn’t get more of a thrill from actually having to use your brain to escape engagements? You can outmaneuver opponents in past Halos as well, it just requires significant forethought. Sprint didn’t introduce fight or flight to Halo, it just makes the flight part far easier.
>
> I want to display significant skill and feel satisfaction from escaping a fight where I’m at a disadvantage, but to each their own.

I agree. People sprinting away is awful. You can just sprint right into an engagement, get up to on -Yoink- and realize “oh -Yoink- I -Yoinked!- up, better run” and then get away cuz it’s pretty pointless to chase in reach-5. It punishes the guy that was winning to much. At least with an upped BMS you can still chase and shoot while still letting someone have that run away instinct without punishing the original winner of the last engagement.

13321

wow very salty in here, you all have good points but my point is i very very doubt no sprint is coming back, stick to your playlists or halo online.

13322

> 2533274923746051;13321:
> wow very salty in here, you all have good points but my point is i very very doubt no sprint is coming back, stick to your playlists or halo online.

Don’t play the salt game, it doesn’t help your case at all, to me especially it just means you like to think anyone vs your points is just mad for the sake of it, can’t stand anyone resorting to salt retorts.

theres many things people said wouldn’t be taken out but were, look at duel wielding, armor abilities in a sense, the removal of custum loadouts and ordinances, the list can go on. Sprint is no different, and if, when they do, I’ll reference the many people who have said the same thing you just did.

there are 0 no sprint playlists nor is there a dedicated game to it, I think it’s pretty justified of those to bring up the issue, especially when you kick out the old formula which never regressed and this new one continues to drop.

343 will do two things. 1.eventually fix this huge mistake when reality hits and have to spend years just to fix it all, or 2. Continue to force this to ground untill there’s nothing left due to their stubbornness.

13323

> 2533274923746051;13321:
> wow very salty in here, you all have good points but my point is i very very doubt no sprint is coming back, stick to your playlists or halo online.

I’ll fix that for you. My arguments just got wrecked and I have no comeback so I’ll play the salt card. 343 can keep bringing sprint back, but they can only blame themselves when the series and sales dry up