The sprint discussion thread

[Celestis]

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> I just looked up “does moving your arms make you run faster” and it was one of the top results lol. If you run really fast, you need to keep your balance, and the only way to do that is to swing your arms. I think we both know we won’t change each other’s minds, so let’s just believe what we want and agree to disagree.

How on earth can you say that when the paper investigating the metabolic cost of different running methods already has three techniques listed that don’t involve arm swinging?
This isn’t an opinion anymore. It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.
At this point I feel like I’m talking to a creationist…

[DARTH_CEDIOUS]

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> > I just looked up “does moving your arms make you run faster” and it was one of the top results lol. If you run really fast, you need to keep your balance, and the only way to do that is to swing your arms. I think we both know we won’t change each other’s minds, so let’s just believe what we want and agree to disagree.
>
> How on earth can you say that when the paper investigating the metabolic cost of different running methods already has three techniques listed that don’t involve arm swinging?
> This isn’t an opinion anymore. It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.
> At this point I feel like I’m talking to a creationist…

welcome to Generation-Trump where an opinion is worth more then facts or scientific research…
People just choose what to believe and look for “sources” to back it up no matter if they are reliable and thanks to the internet, everybody who thinks of oneself as an expert is given the tools to spread -Yoink-… I could put a totally made up pseudo “scientific” article out on the internet talking about how gamers who use a number within their gamertag are significantly less intelligent and more likley to commit crimes in real life then those who don’t use numbers and some day, someone will probably link said article as his/her “source”…

[GED2208]

> 2533274926572108;12734:
> 343 should just develop a classic multiplayer mode where you can’t sprint. There needs to be sprint in the campaign, Spartans are super soldiers in nearly the 27th century.

i agree but they need to do some work before they implement it, for example Grenades need to bounce less, every weapon needs there damage automatically tuned for balancing. bullet magnetism needs to be adjusted with and without scoping in. There just some that would make a classic playlist a real classic playlist.

[DARTH_CEDIOUS]

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> > > > Pokemon Sun and Moon have sold 2.5x more units than Halo 5
> > > >
> > > > Halo 5 has 4.31m sales
> > > > Pokemon has sold over 10m
> > > >
> > > > A franchise with no deviation from it’s core formula ever, that has been around longer than Halo, on less popular console than Xbox, with “outdated” turnbased combat gameplay, is selling over double the franchise that “has to evolve to stay relevant”
> > > >
> > > > Yep, Halo reaaaaalllllly needed those changes
> > >
> > > Exactly, these back and forth arguments can keep going on indefinitely and nobody is ever going to get the upper hand because as they added mechanics (like sprint) they also added balancing mechanisms. The real bottom line is did it make the game play better, more fun, or just plain change it… and how many people liked how it changed. The problem with the bottom line is simple, “better” and “more fun” are subjective.
> > >
> > > We’ve seen every argument for why sprint “is needed” that people can come up with and there isn’t a single one that can’t be countered. But the plain simple fact is what it is. I don’t need to go into some long winded, in-depth post to counter it. All I have to do is point to any pre-sprint Halo title… and yes… it’s just that simple. The only people who will likely try to refute this are those who simply refuse to accept that a mechanic that they like and want isn’t “needed” and try to prove that argument by nit picking details pursuant to why “they need” it.
> > >
> > > Of course, the argument sounds much more convincing if someone can make it look like Halo needed it. When I see statements like “Halo needs sprint because”… I automatically convert it to “I need sprint because”. “Sprint is necessary because”… becomes “I find sprint necessary because”… etc. The only argument that has at least some merit is that the game needs to evolve. If I take your statement at face value (which I’m not into that game at all and have no knowledge of it, so I kind of have to) even the need to evolve and change is arguable to a point.
> > >
> > > The way I see it, if the state of this game (or more accurately, its fans) has driven this subject to well over 600 pages just over 1 mechanic… then obviously it’s more than just sprint that’s causing problems. I personally feel it’s the fact that they keep throwing a bunch of cheap filler mechanics at game play that doesn’t need them to begin with.
> > >
> > > I would challenge 343 to actually refine Halo as a game, rather than to just keep throwing a bunch of the “latest, greatest” fluff at it, in hopes that something sticks. If they’d focus on refining the game itself, its maps and basics, rather than having to continuously refine the whole formula just to balance a plethora of little more than “push button X to counter additional mechanic Y” then they’d be more likely to improve peoples’ experiences rather than expanding them for the sake of it.
> >
> > They need to stop trying to do what works for other games, (or doesn’t work looking at infinite warfare) and copying it hoping that they will have the same success. Halo will never be in “first place” if it isn’t making its own innovations. If the follower never learns anything he wasnt taught he won’t surpass the master.
>
> Halo isn’t that unique to begin with, it borrowed heavily from other fps at it’s time like Half life in some aspects, but I guess you mean in terms of future iterations.

it’s not so much about beeing unique, but about creating a identity and sticking to it. Halo might have used stuff that others devs have used before but it brought it to a new level and made those things it’s own.
So yes, halo took stuff from other games but it mixed those old and new stuff together with improvments to create soemthing new. Taking that identity years after it’s creation and throw in stuff that is poplar, just because it’s popular ist not the same…

[MorseyBaby]

My view is that 343 did everything possible to allay concerns about sprint in Halo 5 and they did a pretty good job at trying to balance it, but it is still a mechanic which works better for a ‘health-based’ game than a game like Halo, which is primarily all about a recharging shield.

In H3 MP: if someone got the drop on you at medium/long range it took skill on your part and a screw up on theirs to get out of it.

H4 just saw people run away, find cover and turn the tables, while H5 the same as H4 is true, but at least people can’t recharge their shields while sprinting. Because of that: there are ways of mitigating the problem, but with so much cover on maps you pretty much have to let the enemy return fire at you before their sheild is even half down, otherwise they just run away - it’s really killed the days of duelling in MP.

You could argue that therefore it’s encouraging more teamwork in Halo - which as i’ve stated elsewhere is a big part of Halo MP and one I’m keen to keep.

I can live with it in the game, but I’d rather be rid of it and instead replace it with more emphasis that the more you move the lower your accuracy is - so all these people who dart about while BR/Magnum-ing will need a little more skill in doing so.

[GED2208]

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> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
> > >
> > > Lore should have little to no effect on multiplayer. The lore+multiplayer people really only came out during Reach, I don’t think any other games have this issue.
> > >
> > > Imagine if people said they didn’t want knife movement in CSGO, and wanted a sprint mechanic. People would say the same thing people here are, in a competitive game, lore should be second to gameplay. Knife movement is unrealistic, but no one cares because it works.
> >
> > While I know you directed the question at them.
> > Lore+MP players were here since CE.
> > The knife mechanic is in H5G, your BMS is increased with a sword out. So CSGO players need not be hypothetically questioned.
> > Halo 5 Mythbusters: Episode 2 - YouTube
>
> But those players were not going around asking for changes to the MP based on lore, and even if they did, they were ignored, which they should be. Asking for changes in a competitive game based off of whatever a book/EU tells you is flawed.
>
> I know this? I meant that if I were to go on any CSGO forum saying we should change how the movement works for realism, I would basically get ignored by most of the community. Asking for things to change that are (were, in Halo’s case) accepted by the majority of the community to fit realism is pointless.

CSGO and halo are two different games even tho they fall into the first person shooter genre. True sprinting increasing map size, but as long as you account for this sprinting doesnt ruin gameplay.

[GED2208]

> 2535455477282651;12786:
> People saying they like Sprint because you can move faster.
> How is that a good thing and why does Halo need it in it’s gameplay? I thought Halo already had great gameplay why don’t they just innovate outside the gameplay.

Elaborate on how you would innovate on halo 3.

[GED2208]

> 2533274922666376;12804:
> I simply look at the success of Halo CE, 2 and 3…and then compare it to the success of Halo 4 and Halo 5…
>
> My friends list used to play the original trilogy religiously, and I mean every day…
>
> I understand there is more than one reason for losing player population, but the biggest elephant in the room, and the most debated point for multiplayer, is the inclusion of sprint…
>
> Halo DOES NOT NEED to conform to standard elements in FPS’s these days e.g. sprint and quick mobility, yet it’s a sad truth that 343 can’t see that the direction their taking the franchise is off a cliff…
>
> Just get rid of sprint already, we’re two games on from Halo 3 and neither have had anywhere near the success of player retention…

I wouldnt say the biggest elephant in the room is sprint far from it. no one has any evidence as to why halo isnt selling 12 million copies any more.

[PurpleStuffz]

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> > > > > > Some guy on Twitter said that Bravo said at rtx that Halo 6 will have Halo 5’s core gameplay. Can someone confirm that he said this because if it’s true then Halo might just die.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t have link, but I can confirm that this was said. Of course it’s going to be tweaked (like Spartan charge for instance), but it’s mostly going to be the same. Think of it like the change from 2 to 3. All I can say is please don’t just write it off. Get a good day in there before just writing it off because it has sprint in it.
> > > >
> > > > If they mess up with Halo 6 people will leave this franchise.
> > >
> > > People have said that with every game.
> >
> > And how many people have already left cause they made changes that only a small ammount of people cared about in halo 5.
> >
> > Halo 5 is basicly the meta of halo 4 when the population died and every body was just using thruster packs because that community hated abilities. I came back to halo 4 after not playing for a while and saw the meta and the reduced playlist so I left.
>
> There’s still hope for a Halo 3 Remastered. Or maybe they scrapped Spartan abilities during development.

I think 343 listen too much to the community. The community came up with the idea for having micro transactions and possibly even reqs the topic on it went into a great deal of information at the time almost nobody read the whole thing. They ask for thruster only as well the die hard fans of death to abilities.

[GED2208]

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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274939777077;12798:
> > > > > The difference is that 343 made changes to Halo that were detrimental to the overall uniqueness of the franchise. The rest of those games, in most cases, made changes that didn’t alienate the original fan-base as much as Halo has.
> > > >
> > > > So, lucky them, right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274939777077;12798:
> > > > > Also, why exactly can we not compare the success of different games? If one game has a 15 hour campaign and one game has a 4 hour campaign, am I not allowed to compare them and say why one might have been more successful?
> > > >
> > > > There are successful games that are purely single player, and games that have no single player component to speak of. There are some amazing games that can be completed in a few hours, and terrible games that take ages to grind through. I don’t know what information you can glean from the number of hours one has to spend to complete the single player, it’s entirely arbitrary when it comes to the quality of that single player experience.
> > >
> > > I was simply using the hours as an example. I see no reason why we’re apparently not allowed to say ‘This game was better because of this’, or ‘This game would have been better if it had this.’ I’m not saying longer campaign = better campaign, in many cases I would much prefer an awesome 3 hour campaign over a mediocre 16 hour campaign. I’m just saying that there’s no reason not to compare games to see which one is better, and for what reasons.
> > >
> > > Also, what exactly do you mean by ‘So lucky them, right?’ I don’t see why Luck has anything to do with it. 343 made poor decisions with a lot of the changes they made to Halo. Other companies have been able to make changes to series, without completely ruining the series identity, and alienating the fanbase.
> >
> > Which games have made changes to the series and retained their original fanbase?
> >
> > Also, you can’t arbitrarily define Halo’s identity and then say it’s ruined. Halo’s “identity” is purely subjective. Everyone has a different idea of what it is.
>
> 343 changed things that didn’t need changing, added things that didn’t need adding, and removed things that shouldn’t have been removed. Change is not always a good thing.
>
> A large part of this is because 343 is trying to appeal to Non Halo fans, instead of the fans that Halo already has. They did this by making Halo more like other FPS’s and less like Halo, and therefore Halo lost it’s identity.

So halo’s identity boils down to sprint give me a break.

[thy_ReaperMC]

> 2533274801176260;12844:
> > 2535455681930574;12826:
> > I just looked up “does moving your arms make you run faster” and it was one of the top results lol. If you run really fast, you need to keep your balance, and the only way to do that is to swing your arms. I think we both know we won’t change each other’s minds, so let’s just believe what we want and agree to disagree.
>
> How on earth can you say that when the paper investigating the metabolic cost of different running methods already has three techniques listed that don’t involve arm swinging?
> This isn’t an opinion anymore. It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.
> At this point I feel like I’m talking to a creationist…

Please, if you’re going to quote an article, make a point. You seem have lost yours.
Now, first of all, this is an article on running, not sprinting. Having said that;

> In support of our running arm swing hypothesis, the demand for net metabolic power increased when running without arm swing. Even in our best attempt at refutation, we found that while running with The Journal of Experimental Biology 2458 the hands held in a relaxed position behind the lower back, the demand for net metabolic power increased by 3%. As expected, the more restricted arm swinging conditions progressively increased the metabolic cost of running. Overall, we believe that our comprehensive approach to testing our running arm swing hypothesis provides the most conclusive evidence to date that arm swing provides a metabolic benefit during human running.

> Confirming our previous speculation about torso motion when running without arm swing (Arellano and Kram, 2012), we found that subjects significantly increased the peak-to-peak amplitude of both shoulder and pelvis rotation (Fig.3). Our findings support the idea that arm swing helps to minimize torso rotation. In the absence of arm swing during running, increasing the peak-to-peak amplitude of both shoulder and pelvis rotation is most likely a compensatory strategy to counterbalance the rotational angular momentum of the swinging legs (Miller et al., 2009).

> While our results highlight the benefit of arm swing during distance running, human arm swing during sprinting might serve a different function, where acceleration and maximizing power output, and not minimizing metabolic energy cost, are of primary importance.

> 2533274801176260;12840:
> I already conceded that swinging the arms has a positive effect on energy consumption. I really don’t see what I’d be ignoring in this discussion…

You don’t know you’ve forgoten something if you have truly forgotten it either.

> ]Yes, please use a non-motion-captured animation from a 12 year old video game to disprove human anatomy.

Now you’re using prepubecent anatomy to prove your adult super-human’s ways?
Please.
I suggest watching the videos on “Why do children run funny.” Short answer, “It works for them, they’re learning and growing.”

> I, myself, was able to run at top speed while simultaneously shooting a lasertag-gun (and precisely at that) for about one-and-a-half hours. Not continuously, of course, since I’m untrained, but with small pauses in between. I don’t know, maybe I produced more muscle acid doing that than I’d normally would. As I said, I’m not really used to exercise, and therefore would have gotten sore muscles either way. But still, untrained as I am, there was really no issue in doing this. It was ridiculously easy.
> I’m not arguing that it might be the most efficient way of running. I’m just saying it’s very much possible. Both from a scientific point of view and personal experience.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/652/230114_908223010.png

> I… don’t really get where you’re going with this. It should be obvious that the faster the speed, the larger the step distance, so you’re more “leaping” than “moving legs fast” as the Roadrunner does.

No, not the Roadrunner as she keeps her body level as the legs take long strides. Kinda works for her as her wings can act like lift to keep her floating level and on a near friction-less surface.
I do definitely mean much more bouncing. Like how Hulk gets around the planet.
Otherwise, we need something like the GENII suit, which GIVES the user Roadrunner-like life thanks to thruster support. As noted with Locke’s “true lore” abilities;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUGH4QGFRqQ

[GED2208]

> 2533274801973487;12845:
> > 2533274801176260;12844:
> > > 2535455681930574;12826:
> > > I just looked up “does moving your arms make you run faster” and it was one of the top results lol. If you run really fast, you need to keep your balance, and the only way to do that is to swing your arms. I think we both know we won’t change each other’s minds, so let’s just believe what we want and agree to disagree.
> >
> > How on earth can you say that when the paper investigating the metabolic cost of different running methods already has three techniques listed that don’t involve arm swinging?
> > This isn’t an opinion anymore. It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.
> > At this point I feel like I’m talking to a creationist…
>
> welcome to Generation-Trump where an opinion is worth more then facts or scientific research…
> People just choose what to believe and look for “sources” to back it up no matter if they are reliable and thanks to the internet, everybody who thinks of oneself as an expert is given the tools to spread -Yoink-… I could put a totally made up pseudo “scientific” article out on the internet talking about how gamers who use a number within their gamertag are significantly less intelligent and more likley to commit crimes in real life then those who don’t use numbers and some day, someone will probably link said article as his/her “source”…

Just had a quick look at the article correct me if im wrong but they were measuring metabolic rates, not balance and not speed of arm.
In the introduction they say that arms are used to counter balance swininging legs.
*"Both Hinrichs (Hinrichs, 1987) and Hamner et al. (Hamner et al., 2010) identified that the primary function of arm swing during distance running is to counterbalance the angular momentum generated by the swinging legs about the vertical axis, resulting in a net vertical angular momentum that fluctuates with a relatively low magnitude about zero"This was the purpose of there study.“The main purpose of this study was to re-examine the effects of arm swing on the metabolic cost of human running and to seek the biomechanical basis for any greater cost associated with arm swing restriction.”*Looks like Arc Trooper 48 was right.

[Arc_Trooper_48]

> 2533274801176260;12844:
> > 2535455681930574;12826:
> > I just looked up “does moving your arms make you run faster” and it was one of the top results lol. If you run really fast, you need to keep your balance, and the only way to do that is to swing your arms. I think we both know we won’t change each other’s minds, so let’s just believe what we want and agree to disagree.
>
> How on earth can you say that when the paper investigating the metabolic cost of different running methods already has three techniques listed that don’t involve arm swinging?
> This isn’t an opinion anymore. It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.
> At this point I feel like I’m talking to a creationist…

So much for agreeing to disagree. The Reaper has already made a reply that would probably be better than mine, so consider that the real reply to your statement.

[Arc_Trooper_48]

> 2535456165221911;12823:
> I read people’s comments about compromising sprint. One question, how can you compromise something that cannot be compromised? About the sprint, there are only two options, keeping or removing. Keeping sprint in certain aspect of game or removing it in certain aspect of game is not a compromise. Like some people countered, what if people want to play that certain aspect of game but never want sprint there or want sprint? Since they cannot play what they want with the gameplay they want, this sprint issue will probably continue, it doesn’t solve the problem. Like said at beginning, sprint is something that cannot be compromised. What people want is absence of sprint and another wants presence of sprint. You can’t compromise this.
>
> By the way, this issue would have been never existed if 343 never added sprint to Halo.

You actually can compromise sprint and it’s quite easy, as I’ve made many of compromises. The problem is when people just want their way and don’t think about the others who don’t want that way.

FYI, sprint was introduced in Reach (Bungie), not halo 4 (343).

[ShadowAngel9228]

> 2533274874872263;12848:
> My view is that 343 did everything possible to allay concerns about sprint in Halo 5 and they did a pretty good job at trying to balance it, but it is still a mechanic which works better for a ‘health-based’ game than a game like Halo, which is primarily all about a recharging shield.
>
> In H3 MP: if someone got the drop on you at medium/long range it took skill on your part and a screw up on theirs to get out of it.
>
> H4 just saw people run away, find cover and turn the tables, while H5 the same as H4 is true, but at least people can’t recharge their shields while sprinting. Because of that: there are ways of mitigating the problem, but with so much cover on maps you pretty much have to let the enemy return fire at you before their sheild is even half down, otherwise they just run away - it’s really killed the days of duelling in MP.
>
> You could argue that therefore it’s encouraging more teamwork in Halo - which as i’ve stated elsewhere is a big part of Halo MP and one I’m keen to keep.
>
> I can live with it in the game, but I’d rather be rid of it and instead replace it with more emphasis that the more you move the lower your accuracy is - so all these people who dart about while BR/Magnum-ing will need a little more skill in doing so.

Reply to paragraphs in order:

1.sprint really isn’t working out if they’re having to change it each and every game, same with abilities and anything else they refuse to give up on. I don’t recall bungie touching their movement system(till reach) at all cuz you don’t fix what isn’t broken.

2. Yes? Halos not known as a game where getting the first shot guarantees you kill.

3. I can agree to this but some like to think people don’t run away and I’ll call B.S. Considering I’ve seen it, I’ve done it, and I’ve got friends that do it. It’s more of a defensive ability rather than an offensive one.

4. I actually disagree. It’s much harder to track and contain a whole team if they all sprint wherever. Not being able to fire my weapon while chasing them is part of that issue as well where as pre-reach you could chase and attack.

5. I too can live without it if it stays its current iteration but nevertheless the fact that they have changed its approach every game and including panalties to it shows they’re not 100% confident in it. Bungie maintained its movement 1-3 for over almost a decade and didn’t see issues from it whatsoever.

[MorseyBaby]

> 2533274923562209;12858:
> > 2533274874872263;12848:
> > My view is that 343 did everything possible to allay concerns about sprint in Halo 5 and they did a pretty good job at trying to balance it, but it is still a mechanic which works better for a ‘health-based’ game than a game like Halo, which is primarily all about a recharging shield.
> >
> > In H3 MP: if someone got the drop on you at medium/long range it took skill on your part and a screw up on theirs to get out of it.
> >
> > H4 just saw people run away, find cover and turn the tables, while H5 the same as H4 is true, but at least people can’t recharge their shields while sprinting. Because of that: there are ways of mitigating the problem, but with so much cover on maps you pretty much have to let the enemy return fire at you before their sheild is even half down, otherwise they just run away - it’s really killed the days of duelling in MP.
> >
> > You could argue that therefore it’s encouraging more teamwork in Halo - which as i’ve stated elsewhere is a big part of Halo MP and one I’m keen to keep.
> >
> > I can live with it in the game, but I’d rather be rid of it and instead replace it with more emphasis that the more you move the lower your accuracy is - so all these people who dart about while BR/Magnum-ing will need a little more skill in doing so.
>
> Reply to paragraphs in order:
>
> 1.sprint really isn’t working out if they’re having to change it each and every game, same with abilities and anything else they refuse to give up on. I don’t recall bungie touching their movement system(till reach) at all cuz you don’t fix what isn’t broken.
>
> 2. Yes? Halos not known as a game where getting the first shot guarantees you kill.
>
> 3. I can agree to this but some like to think people don’t run away and I’ll call B.S. Considering I’ve seen it, I’ve done it, and I’ve got friends that do it. It’s more of a defensive ability rather than an offensive one.
>
> 4. I actually disagree. It’s much harder to track and contain a whole team if they all sprint wherever. Not being able to fire my weapon while chasing them is part of that issue as well where as pre-reach you could chase and attack.
>
> 5. I too can live without it if it stays its current iteration but nevertheless the fact that they have changed its approach every game and including panalties to it shows they’re not 100% confident in it. Bungie maintained its movement 1-3 for over almost a decade and didn’t see issues from it whatsoever.

To be honest: I completely agree with you. Think we’re on pretty much the same page.

I was thinking more in terms of 1vs1 duels commonin previous halo games being replaced with 2vs1 fights etc and yes: on a team level if people split up that’s true, but likewise I was thinking smaller.

My main point I think was: although I never really liked sprint I respect 343 for trying to make it work rather than just discarding it in a very reactionary way, which they could have done. That said: I think it’s run its course now

[Celestis]

> 2603643534597848;12854:
> Please, if you’re going to quote an article, make a point. You seem have lost yours.

No, I didn’t. I can spell it out again if you like: “It’s scientifically documented that you don’t need your hands to maintain your balance while running.”

> In support of our running arm swing hypothesis, the demand for net metabolic power increased when running without arm swing. Even in our best attempt at refutation, we found that while running with The Journal of Experimental Biology 2458 the hands held in a relaxed position behind the lower back, the demand for net metabolic power increased by 3%. As expected, the more restricted arm swinging conditions progressively increased the metabolic cost of running. Overall, we believe that our comprehensive approach to testing our running arm swing hypothesis provides the most conclusive evidence to date that arm swing provides a metabolic benefit during human running.

I already admitted that swinging your arms is more efficient for the energy balance. Why do you keep on throwing in a quote that we both agree on?

> Confirming our previous speculation about torso motion when running without arm swing (Arellano and Kram, 2012), we found that subjects significantly increased the peak-to-peak amplitude of both shoulder and pelvis rotation (Fig.3). Our findings support the idea that arm swing helps to minimize torso rotation. In the absence of arm swing during running, increasing the peak-to-peak amplitude of both shoulder and pelvis rotation is most likely a compensatory strategy to counterbalance the rotational angular momentum of the swinging legs (Miller et al., 2009).

Correct. Since you don’t use your hands to counter the torque, you use other body parts, like shoulders and/or pelvis. Exactly what I was pointing out. You just quoted what I’ve been saying for like four months or so…

> While our results highlight the benefit of arm swing during distance running, human arm swing during sprinting might serve a different function, where acceleration and maximizing power output, and not minimizing metabolic energy cost, are of primary importance.

A: “might” serve a different function. They are speculating here.
B: We already know from the other artcile that you quoted, that three different scientists agree that this is not the case and arm swinging has no effect on power output:
“Contrary to popular belief, superior arm action does not produce superior sprint performance.”
C: “Once the runner is up to top speed, the arms mostly serve to counter-balance the legs and have minimal effect on setting the tone for stride rate or length.”
Two of the three begin with “once the runner is up to top speed”, so there might be an effect on acceleration but not on speed. Their main effect is to maintain balance, which we already know from the aforementioned paper can be achieved using various other methods that don’t involve arm swinging.

> 2603643534597848;12854:
> Now you’re using prepubecent anatomy to prove your adult super-human’s ways?
> Please.
> I suggest watching the videos on “Why do children run funny.” Short answer, “It works for them, they’re learning and growing.”

This doesn’t even make any sense. Who was ever talking about child or prepubecent anatomy?
Seriously, you have this weird habit of throwing completely unrelated topics into a discussion. You did the same thing with the ADS discussion, where you suddenly changed the topic to dual wielding.
Honestly, 90% of the time I don’t even know what you’re talking about from your constant off-topic.

> 2603643534597848;12854:
> http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/652/230114_908223010.png

Fine, don’t believe me. You wouldn’t have anyways. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s ridiculously easy, even for a contemporary person. Much more so when we start extrapolating 500 years into the future with the cybernetically and genetically enhanced -Yoink!- sapiens augeous.

> 2533274866652866;12855:
> Looks like Arc Trooper 48 was right.

*What??**How?*His entire point was that you cannot run without swinging your arms. Three out of the four running techniques under investigation in this paper don’t use arm swinging.
How is he right when even the premise of the study conducted completely disproves his entire statement?

[LeoMohamedN10]

> 2533274848599184;12755:
> > 2535434037793365;12754:
> > > 2535455681930574;12752:
> > > > 2535434037793365;12749:
> > > > > 2535455681930574;12678:
> > > > > > 2535434037793365;12677:
> > > > > > > 2535455681930574;12672:
> > > > > > >
>
> Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
>
> Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
>
> A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.

How? Halo’s gameplay is already set. 343i are the ones who changed it. I don’t want Halo to cater to my own tastes, I want Halo to be Halo again. Remember, 343i are making Halo games, not another franchise.

Sprint is faster than BMS in the original trilogy, that’s true. However, you have to remember that the maps in Halo 4 and 5 generally are significantly larger than the ones in Halo 1-3. Ragnarok and Pit Stop are exceptions as those are 1:1 remakes. That’s not the case in Halo 5, as Truth is significantly bigger than both Midship or Heretic. Meaning that walking from one side to another in Halo 3’s Midship is the same speed as walking from one side to another in Halo 5’s Truth.

Let’s first make sure we’re clear on the definition of immersive. When something is immersive, that means it provides information or stimulation for a number of senses. In this particular case, the sense we are talking about is sight.____The claim is that sprint makes you feel more like you’re in the game due to running in bursts (as the average human would do in real life), and therefore should be in the game.
Firstly, immersion is not actually a top priority as far as gameplay goes. It is something that should be sought after so long as more important factors, such as balance, are not disrupted in the process. Sprint is an example of “immersion” that does have several harmful effects on the gameplay itself and therefore is not an appropriate addition simply for the sake of “immersing” the player.
Secondly, if immersion means making you, a normal human being, feel more like you’re moving around in the world itself in the same way that you would be capable of, then immersion is not appropriate in that sense.You are playing as a spartan who, as pointed out earlier, have been shown in the canon to be able to sprint at speeds far faster than you or I am capable of while aiming and shooting accurately and without having to stop after 5 seconds.A true immersion in the sense of making us feel like Spartans from the Halo universe would mean making us move around the world in the way that they would be capable of, and in the process, sprint and lowered weapons would simply be abandoned.
As with the canon argument, if you really truly believe that “immersion” is a priority in a game, then you’ll actually be against sprint and lowered weapons.

> 2533274828953572;12756:
> Why are people still talking about this? here is the thing sure it gives the illusion that maps are bigger, but the main purpose is to add another mechanic to the combat! Not to just looking around the map. You have a choice in game, to walk and have your weapons at the ready, or to get somewhere and be semi defenseless. It is a gamble, but if you can use it to quickly get behind people it is worth it. That is why it needs to stay. It adds variables. I understand that because of this there is a lot of dead space, but honestly that is because a lot of people never try anything new and always go the same paths. It is all tactical, and I love it because you have to weigh the risks and think about your movements, with a more purposeful outlook.

That means Halo lost what made it unique. The fact that there was no mobility mode and combat mode. The fact that this was a simple game that allows you to use creative methods to out skill and outgun your opponent. Complexity gives the illusion of creativity, only.

There are so many tactical things that you could add in the game that some people may love it, but it might as well also completely change the game. Such as sprint.

> 2535455681930574;12757:
> > 2535434037793365;12754:
> > > 2535455681930574;12752:
> > > > 2535434037793365;12749:
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> > > > > > 2535434037793365;12677:
> > > > > > > 2535455681930574;12672:
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > > If you think we simply just want to move faster, you are sorely mistaken.
> >
> > That’s what the general “pro-sprint” people want from sprint. To move faster. To have the illusion of moving fast. Why do you think people press the sprint button? Cause they want to get from one area to another.
> >
> > Of course, there are people who have other reasons.
> >
> > Making the game about who has his gun up and who has his gun down is a terrible idea. Halo shouldn’t sacrifice the way it does things to cater 100% to your own tastes. Halo shouldn’t have sprint in the first place. Putting in BTB or not won’t change anything. It will still change the game, one way or another.
>
> No it’s not. People also want different options. Thinking that we just want to move fast is ignorant.
>
> The game hasn’t and will never be about who has his gun up or down. 100% to my own tastes? If it wanted it to be 100% to my own tastes, I wouldn’t be here trying to compromise. In fact, I don’t even need to try to compromise because by the looks of it, sprint is staying.

The minority do. The most argument people tend to use for pro sprint is “because halo 1-3 was too slow!” or “I’m a super soldier I should be able to traverse maps faster!”

It can’t be ignorant. These are the most common excuses for its inclusion, so it’s totally OK for me to assume that that’s what you want too.

The game is like that now. The guy who has his gun down is at a disadvantage to the one who had his gun up. You aren’t trying to compromise here, as you’re missing every single reason why we don’t want in the game.

Not to mention it’s not a good compromise. As it hardly fixes anything, and the reasons why you want sprint to stay are the same reasons why we believe sprint needs to go and why it changes the game.

[A_Blue_Illusion]

> 2535455681930574;12834:
> > 2535455477282651;12829:
> > Some guy on Twitter said that Bravo said at rtx that Halo 6 will have Halo 5’s core gameplay. Can someone confirm that he said this because if it’s true then Halo might just die.
>
> I don’t have link, but I can confirm that this was said. Of course it’s going to be tweaked (like Spartan charge for instance), but it’s mostly going to be the same. Think of it like the change from 2 to 3. All I can say is please don’t just write it off. Get a good day in there before just writing it off because it has sprint in it.

Halo 6 has been written off for me. Ever since the abysmal failure they tried to pass off as BTB released, which was when I quit the MP altogether. Shortly after that, I made up my mind that 6 would be the first Halo I didn’t bother to pre-order and it would be a mere rental… unless some major changes happened, that were much more than just the retention of sprint. A rental will still allow me to give it its ‘good day’ but I hold out little confidence it’ll get more than the amount of time it takes me to finish the campaign… if… I can stomach it.

[tsassi]

> 2535434037793365;12861:
> As with the canon argument, if you really truly believe that “immersion” is a priority in a game, then you’ll actually be against sprint and lowered weapons.

I so intensely dislike the immersion argument. But seeing it turned around like this… that’s just whole another level of silliness. Immersion is purely, 100%, completely, entirely, totally, absolutely subjective. The argument you are making here is “Oh, but you see, your immersion is the wrong kind of immersion. My immersion is the right one”. No it’s not. Everyone is immersed by different things, which is why any argument relating to immersion, no matter which way, has no ground to stand on.

One thing I’ve fought for every now and then is to make people understand that in the grand scheme of things, no argument is of any worth if the people involved can’t agree on the premises. And when your premises are so nuanced as what makes a person immersed, it’s almost guaranteed that your opposition is going to disagree with the premise of your argument, and you’re not going to get anywhere. And this doesn’t concern just the immersion argument, but every argument. There are much fewer facts in the world than one would like to believe. So, if you want to tell someone they’re wrong, find some ground which you can do that on, first.