The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > Halo 6 could be the game EVERYONE wants by removing sprint in campaign (yes because who the -Yoink- needs TWO movement speeds in campaign???) and
> > > > > arena multiplayer at first I thought a no sprint playlist might be optimal but hear me out. I pretty sure the new spartan abilities (save -Yoinking!- spartan charge) would be GENERALLY accepted in a halo game if they werent accompanied by sprint it would feel more competitive more strategic and would also still be recognizable to the fine tuned experience we got in halo 5. Warzone and customs would be a whole other beast entirely retaining ALL the features that made halo 5 successful would keep warzone great and would also allow more options for custom games, for those people that actually wanted to play in a sprint arena type setting they could actually fire up the in game custom game lobby adjust the filter and be good to go! lets face it, sprint has NO place in competitive halo and to argue that it does would just be absurd. this would allow arena maps to continue to be designed the PROPER way and please the vets and basically everyone whos willing to give it a chance and you wouldnt lose much of your sprint loving audience at all because there would still be sprint in the game it would just take a backseat!
> > > > > Thoughts? :3
> >
> > yet overwatch, and counterstrike are just fine
>
> OW has ton of Heroes with movement abilities. Besides a movement ability is also very important to balance correctly when making the character, as someone like Tracer wouldn’t be as affective without her blinks. Needles to say, bad comparison.
>
> OT; As for sprint, i really like the implementation in Halo 5, the only thing i find extremely frustrating is the Spartan charge ability, which in “some Arena maps” can be very annoying

No one has anything against movement abilities as a whole, it’s just sprint, which only one character in overwatch has.

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> Halo5’s BMS is already faster than MLG: H3 or MLG: HR-ZBNS.
> PS: MLG is +10% in H3, which mean 2.25+0.23=2.48
> https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/the-sprint-discussion-thread/65b90d3b-03bd-48fa-ae0d-5427f4fbe512/posts?page=476#post9511
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> > Making stuff up doesn’t help your cause. The base movement speed in the original trilogy is 2.25 units per second. In Halo 5 it’s about 2.6 and sprint speed is about 3.3, significantly faster than in the original trilogy.
> > Of course you could go philosophical about what it means to measure things between two games when we can’t take a measuring stick from one to the other, but the above choice of units is consistent for all objects that exist in the games, and is so the only sensible choice of units.
>
> And from the beta, top speed on Sprint was reduced & BMS was increased slightly.
>
> MLG upped BMS in H3 by 10% for their liking, so maps designed for BMS were already circumvented with a higher actual.
>
> … And of course, if Sprint elongates maps because you need equivalent scale distance of weapons out between cover, “simply” upping BMS will require that elongation to occur anyways, or MLG was compensating for already existing gameplay elongation in H3, until Foundry came out to.
>
> A nice thing about Halo5, you’re at faster-than-MLG speed for maps mostly the size of H3’s Pit, and you can use Sprint+Thruster and/or Slide to skip across the map even quicker than using BMS, even quicker than designed, without adding in Forge objects to promote path use that grav-lifts or jetpacks were meant to help speed up in H3, Reach or H4.
>
> So from a vanilla stand-point, Sprint with its H5 restrictions on executing (being damaged stops, shield timer resets), that it chokes Slide and Shoulder Charge from being spammed, and it allows a way to cross maps quicker with every ability used with map knowledge instead of just upping BMS by another 10%… H5G’s Sprint is an especially competitive mechanic.

Wow. I did not realize this. I guess it’s the sheer number of people on here arguing that BMS is lower and what not, bit the number of people arguing for that far outweighed those that said anything differently. It-s interesting to know that Halo 5 BMS is faster than the other games. Thanks Reaper

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> > > If you think we simply just want to move faster, you are sorely mistaken.
> >
> > That’s what the general “pro-sprint” people want from sprint. To move faster. To have the illusion of moving fast. Why do you think people press the sprint button? Cause they want to get from one area to another.
> >
> > Of course, there are people who have other reasons.
> >
> > Making the game about who has his gun up and who has his gun down is a terrible idea. Halo shouldn’t sacrifice the way it does things to cater 100% to your own tastes. Halo shouldn’t have sprint in the first place. Putting in BTB or not won’t change anything. It will still change the game, one way or another.
>
> Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
>
> Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
>
> A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.

How is that wanting halo to cater to his own tastes? That’s just wanting halo to be halo. Although the actual speed is faster, maps are stretched so when you put it in scale it’s not any faster.

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> > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
> >
> > A possible solution is to remove sprint and increase the BMS. Tell me one thing sprint would achieve a higher BMS could not?
> >
> > There are many better alternatives to sprint. We don’t need a game changing mechanic to be part of the game.
>
> If you think we simply just want to move faster, you are sorely mistaken.

Then what the hell do you guys want? It seriously is not clear. People say they want to move faster, a higher BMS solves that.

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> Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
>
> Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
>
> A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?

Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.

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> > > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
> >
> > If you think we simply just want to move faster, you are sorely mistaken.
>
> Then what the hell do you guys want? It seriously is not clear. People say they want to move faster, a higher BMS solves that.

You say it’s not clear, but clearly skipped over my post above.

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> I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.

Arbitrarily changing something to fit a vision isn’t arbitrary.
Want to know why Bungie and 343i changed things for Reach from H3?

> MLG: After playing three seasons of Halo 2, what’s it like to switch over to Halo 3? What elements are similar to Halo 2? Which are different?
> Ogre 2: To be honest, Halo 3 isn’t a whole lot different from Halo 2. I was a little bit disappointed because of this. Going from Halo 1 to Halo 2 was a huge change, because the games are almost nothing alike when it comes to game play. Switching from Halo 2 to Halo 3, there are just new maps and a few new weapons is all that really feels different.
> The game play itself, the physics engine and the way the weapons work, I almost feel are worse than in Halo 2.

Accusing H5 of not being classic because it has sprint ignores Reach & H4’s loadouts and not fighting over PW spawns versus H5’s symmetrical starts & fighting over PW’s. As well as H4’s flinch versus H5G’s descoping of anything Smart Linked.

It ALSO ignores blooming precisions.
If players didn’t achieve any form of speed boost when running forward at top speed, but instead just had FoV change similar to Gears of War, had speed lines H5G already offers, or the “Spartans don’t pant” panting of H4, then the illusion of sprint would be so obviously broken.
BROKEN!

You’d have to have a delay between moving forward fully and using the illusion or bobbing back and forth would induce a constant wall-eye effect. And everyone indeed would not be doing anything faster than when the air pops as we know we do when we achieve full sprint in H5.

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> Why are people still talking about this? here is the thing sure it gives the illusion that maps are bigger, but the main purpose is to add another mechanic to the combat! Not to just looking around the map. You have a choice in game, to walk and have your weapons at the ready, or to get somewhere and be semi defenseless. It is a gamble, but if you can use it to quickly get behind people it is worth it. That is why it needs to stay. It adds variables. I understand that because of this there is a lot of dead space, but honestly that is because a lot of people never try anything new and always go the same paths. It is all tactical, and I love it because you have to weigh the risks and think about your movements, with a more purposeful outlook.

I disagree. While the main purpose may be to “add another mechanic to the combat” that is the only thing it does. It adds another mechanic and it’s a mechanic that’s not necessary. The proof is Halos CE - 3. They established the franchise without it and yes, it’s just that simple. I think you have it backwards. It doesn’t give the illusion that maps are bigger because of sprint, it’s that the maps are bigger and/or designed differently to compensate for it and that gives the illusion that sprint is needed.

“It adds variables. I understand that because of this there is a lot of dead space, but honestly that is because a lot of people never try anything new and always go the same paths.”

Yes, it does add variables. But in the process, just as you’ve pointed out yourself, it creates dead space. Actually, it doesn’t really create dead space as much as it expands dead space zones, but people will always tend to use the same paths because it’s effective or efficient to do so. That’s natural.

“It is all tactical, and I love it because you have to weigh the risks and think about your movements, with a more purposeful outlook.”

This is what I take the biggest issue with. I’ve played enough of all the Halos to know this much from my experience;

The addition of any mechanic (not just sprint… but sprint has the biggest impact I’ve noticed) is going to make you weigh risks and think about movements with a different outlook, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call it more purposeful… that’s up to individual discretion.

I could make the exact same statement about any Halo I’ve played being “all tactical because you have to weigh the risks and think about your movements”. Sprint wasn’t needed to create that sense… that was already there because of map design, weapons/placement, vehicles/placement, enemy positions, etc. In fact, I’d venture to say you needed to more tactical and even more considerate of your movements before sprint because without it, once you made a move, you were committed. You couldn’t run into a situation and suddenly find out that was a mistake, then scamper off to regroup. It was make up your mind and commit… go big or go respawn.

Since Halo 3’s addition of ‘equipment’, the game has been bombarded with a plethora of fluff mechanics. Some worked well, others not so much. As I said, I found sprint to have the biggest impact and it makes sense that it would since it affects movement… one of, if not the most basic aspect of any game.

Thing is, I had more intense, white knuckle games in the older Halos than I did in Halo 4 - 5 and I feel it’s because you had to make due with what was available. You had good, solid game play and the innovation was required on the players’ side, because it wasn’t convoluted with a bunch of filler moves that show off innovation on the devs side at the cost of making everything feel pre-programmed. Sprint isn’t the only contributing factor to it, but I see it as seated at the top of the list.

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> I disagree. While the main purpose may be to “add another mechanic to the combat” that is the only thing it does. It adds another mechanic and it’s a mechanic that’s not necessary. The proof is Halos CE - 3. They established the franchise without it and yes, it’s just that simple. I think you have it backwards. It doesn’t give the illusion that maps are bigger because of sprint, it’s that the maps are bigger and/or designed differently to compensate for it and that gives the illusion that sprint is needed.

To note with the article I linked above about H2 being different from CE.
Much of that is due the mechanic of Dual Wielding, which the franchise was not established with. Extra jump height and the removal of fall damage REALLY changes pathfinding on maps like Hange’Em High vs Tombstone.

Do remember, H3 didn’t have Midship till Mythic, not until ODST released and called it Heretic. H3 didn’t have Wizard sized small maps until Foundry was released in the first DLC.
Until then, H3 maps were larger to compensate for equipment MLG didn’t use. Last Resort is “fatter” than Zanzibar in every area AND adds in more space inside the base. Highground and the Pit are not small maps. Highground and the Pit are great examples of cover being scarce and scattered cheap high spots due to Regenerator, Bubbleshield & Grav-Lift use intent, but not used in competitive play.

Every time you group CE with H2 and H3 as cohesive games that H5G doesn’t emulate, you quickly ignore the things that CE and H5 do have in common, and the things H2/H3 are very different from CE… And then if you ask some, the differences in the way hitscan versus non-hitscan works between H2 & H3, some can write an essay on the subject/

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> > > > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
>
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> > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
>
> Arbitrarily changing something to fit a vision isn’t arbitrary.
> Want to know why Bungie and 343i changed things for Reach from H3?
>
> > MLG: After playing three seasons of Halo 2, what’s it like to switch over to Halo 3? What elements are similar to Halo 2? Which are different?
> > Ogre 2: To be honest, Halo 3 isn’t a whole lot different from Halo 2. I was a little bit disappointed because of this. Going from Halo 1 to Halo 2 was a huge change, because the games are almost nothing alike when it comes to game play. Switching from Halo 2 to Halo 3, there are just new maps and a few new weapons is all that really feels different.
> > The game play itself, the physics engine and the way the weapons work, I almost feel are worse than in Halo 2.
>
> Accusing H5 of not being classic because it has sprint ignores Reach & H4’s loadouts and not fighting over PW spawns versus H5’s symmetrical starts & fighting over PW’s. As well as H4’s flinch versus H5G’s descoping of anything Smart Linked.
>
> It ALSO ignores blooming precisions.
> If players didn’t achieve any form of speed boost when running forward at top speed, but instead just had FoV change similar to Gears of War, had speed lines H5G already offers, or the “Spartans don’t pant” panting of H4, then the illusion of sprint would be so obviously broken.
> BROKEN!
>
> You’d have to have a delay between moving forward fully and using the illusion or bobbing back and forth would induce a constant wall-eye effect. And everyone indeed would not be doing anything faster than when the air pops as we know we do when we achieve full sprint in H5.

So you believe that Bungie needed to drastically alter halo’s formula to the point where its identity was hardly recognizable based on one pro complaint regarding the lack of changes from halo 2 to halo 3? Sounds like a ludicrous explanation to alienating the prior fans of halo for the sake of change.

Those mechanics were never mentioned in my post because they were neither necessary nor relevant to a thread dedicated to the effects of sprint and whether halo is beneficial with sprint in context of its classic game play. It’s also surprising of you to compare the poor mechanics of Reach and 4 to halo 5’s implementations, as if H5 is a great example of classic halo, while completely ignoring the implementations of thrust, clamber, Spartan charge, GP, and stabilize. Let’s stay on topic for once, instead of you seemingly rambling on other irrelevant subjects.

All of my points of feedback for immersing players on moving faster (if that was ever a primary goal w/o compromising game play w/o using sprint, which it never should) would be active if the player was moving forward in the same requirements of halo 5’s sprint, in addition to a small speed boost while remaining the ability to fire in this state. Would that truly be a nauseating experience if this were to be implemented?

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> > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> >
> > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> >
> > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
>
> I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
>
> Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.

The “arbitrarily changing gameplay” part has already been spoken on, but I want to touch more on the higher BMS for immersion.

If we treate Mjolnir as a combat skin vs a suit of armor, which is what it functions as (an enhancing of Spartan’s natural instincts and abilities vs something that any average marine can jump into and become stronger and faster), then we have to assume natural human instincts are part of Mjolnir. Walking really fast through a battlefield is not immersive, at least to the people that say sprint helps with immersion. No amount of flow lines or panting is going to go against the natural sprint motion that is seen in everyday life (from someone jogging in the park to Usain Bolt beating another world record, the general form remains the same. Arm swing for balance and long strides.

Declining of Halo’s sales and population have no bearing on sprint or its effects on gameplay. I can also say that the removal of dual wielding caused the population of Halo to drop and sales to decline. Is that fair? Should we all start clamoring for the return of dual wielding?

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> So you believe that Bungie needed to drastically alter halo’s formula to the point where its identity was hardly recognizable based on one pro complaint regarding the lack of changes from halo 2 to halo 3? Sounds like a ludicrous explanation to alienating the prior fans of halo for the sake of change.

Actually, I believed CE to H2 had already drastically changed Halo into something unreconizable back in 2004.

> Those mechanics were never mentioned in my post because they were neither necessary nor relevant to a thread dedicated to the effects of sprint and whether halo is beneficial with sprint in context of its classic game play.

I agree with your point to a degree but your statement was greatly miss-worded. It opens up other discussions you wish to avoid. If you wish to avoid moving further off topic, than you can’t make such open statements that can’t be contrasted.

> It’s also surprising of you to compare the poor mechanics of Reach and 4 to halo 5’s implementations, as if H5 is a great example of classic halo, while completely ignoring the implementations of thrust, clamber, Spartan charge, GP, and stabilize. Let’s stay on topic for once, instead of you seemingly rambling on other irrelevant subjects.

No it’s quite clear and part of the discussion. Spartan Abilities are symmetrical, not loadouts. Symmetrical starts, not “no-ability” starts are a classic Halo thing. Or you’re stuck having to seperate H2 & H3 from CE as classic gameplay.

And as far as meta gameplay goes, you can design H5 maps knowing everyone always has the same mobility options instead of creating specifics spots for a grav-lift or jetpack.

> All of my points of feedback for immersing players on moving faster (if that was ever a primary goal w/o compromising game play w/o using sprint, which it never should) would be active if the player was moving forward in the same requirements of halo 5’s sprint, in addition to a small speed boost while remaining the ability to fire in this state.

That may be.

> Would that truly be a nauseating experience if this were to be implemented?

YES!
You’d look like your sprinting when moving forward, when not being shot. So between bobbing forward and back, and being shot by different rate of fire weapons, it’s not a great visual mechanic to fool people into something that truly is an illuison. It’s not the illusion of scale, it’s an illusion. Period.

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@thy ReaperMC
Let me clarify. When I refer to classic game play, I’m solely referring to the matter of classic movement, with halo CE, 2 and 3 all featuring basic movement mechanics activated by the movement stick itself, without sprint or any other movement abilities. This focus will carry on for the rest of this discussion.

> Actually, I believed CE to H2 had already drastically changed Halo into something unreconizable back in 2004.

LOL, that’s a fair conclusion. Moving on…

> No it’s quite clear and part of the discussion. Spartan Abilities are symmertical, not loadouts. Symetrical starts, not “no-ability” starts are a classic Halo thing. Or you’re stuck having to seperate H2 & H3 from CE as classic gameplay.

No ability starts are exactly a classic halo mechanic if we refer back to my clarification. Equal starts are just a part of classic halo movement, but basic movement abilities fill in the bigger picture within this discussion. Since CE-3 share this similarity, there should be no point of confusion when grouping these 3 games as examples of classic movement.

> YES! You’d look like your sprinting when moving forward, when not being shot. So between bobbing forward and back, and being shot by different rate of fire weapons, it’s not a great visual mechanic to fool people into something that truly is an illuison. It’s not the illusion of scale, it’s an illusion. Period.

Would it help if there was a requirement of you pressing a button in the same matter as regular sprint in halo 5 for those mechanics to activate? Then you wouldn’t be randomly be switching back between those movements for that disorienting game play, which is an entirely valid complaint otherwise.

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> > >
> > > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> > >
> > > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> > >
> > > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
> >
> > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> >
> > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
>
> The “arbitrarily changing gameplay” part has already been spoken on, but I want to touch more on the higher BMS for immersion.
>
> If we treate Mjolnir as a combat skin vs a suit of armor, which is what it functions as (an enhancing of Spartan’s natural instincts and abilities vs something that any average marine can jump into and become stronger and faster), then we have to assume natural human instincts are part of Mjolnir. Walking really fast through a battlefield is not immersive, at least to the people that say sprint helps with immersion. No amount of flow lines or panting is going to go against the natural sprint motion that is seen in everyday life (from someone jogging in the park to Usain Bolt beating another world record, the general form remains the same. Arm swing for balance and long strides.
>
> Declining of Halo’s sales and population have no bearing on sprint or its effects on gameplay. I can also say that the removal of dual wielding caused the population of Halo to drop and sales to decline. Is that fair? Should we all start clamoring for the return of dual wielding?

Valid points across. I hate debating immersion as justification of game play mechanics for this reason when I have no experience of explaining my argument, especially when immersion matters so little in the long run.

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> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
> > >
> > > If you think we simply just want to move faster, you are sorely mistaken.
> >
> > Then what the hell do you guys want? It seriously is not clear. People say they want to move faster, a higher BMS solves that.
>
> You say it’s not clear, but clearly skipped over my post above.
>
>
> > 2533274968707582;12768:
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> > >

Do you mean the reply to me? So sprint should stay because it “feels” better? Or that sprint should stay for the sci-fi lore?

Both can be achieved in other ways that are not damaging to gameplay. Animations where you swing your arms should work. If moving faster isn’t an issue, then this should suffice, no?

Also, Gear’s jockey run is not just a FOV change, speed is also increased.

12778

> 2533274968707582;12775:
> Let me clarify. When I refer to classic game play, I’m solely referring to the matter of classic movement, with halo CE, 2 and 3 all featuring basic movement mechanics activated by the movement stick itself, without sprint or any other movement abilities. This focus will carry on for the rest of this discussion.

While I know that’s the intent’;

> No ability starts are exactly a classic halo mechanic if we refer back to my clarification. Equal starts are just a part of classic halo movement, but basic movement abilities fill in the bigger picture within this discussion. Since CE-3 share this similarity, there should be no point of confusion when grouping these 3 games as examples of classic movement.

But only 2 share no fall damage, no health packs, high floaty jumps and no equipment for grav-lifts or Elite avatar double-jumping… But never in the same pair! Oh, and H3’s slight delay in jumping to “simulate” crouching before jumping, minor in description, huge impact on gameplay and intent to avoid things.

While it’s understood there is a classical no-sprint trilogy of games, that each one is a classic Halo experience just because they are without sprint REALLY misses what makes CE special in the first place, or how the sandbox is truly affected by Bungie’s ideals of dualing and H3’s equipment.

BTW, a little after HR was released, and LONG before the Elite controller, here is what I wanted for a control scheme to at least make dualing a viable layer :slight_smile:

> Would it help if there was a requirement of you pressing a button in the same matter as regular sprint in halo 5 for those mechanics to activate? Then you wouldn’t be randomly be switching back between those movements for that disorienting game play, which is an entirely valid complaint otherwise.

But aren’t you suggesting we have a button that does nothing to the game then? Aside from manually activating a true illusion?

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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> > > >
> > > > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> > > >
> > > > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
> > >
> > > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> > >
> > > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
> >
> > The “arbitrarily changing gameplay” part has already been spoken on, but I want to touch more on the higher BMS for immersion.
> >
> > If we treate Mjolnir as a combat skin vs a suit of armor, which is what it functions as (an enhancing of Spartan’s natural instincts and abilities vs something that any average marine can jump into and become stronger and faster), then we have to assume natural human instincts are part of Mjolnir. Walking really fast through a battlefield is not immersive, at least to the people that say sprint helps with immersion. No amount of flow lines or panting is going to go against the natural sprint motion that is seen in everyday life (from someone jogging in the park to Usain Bolt beating another world record, the general form remains the same. Arm swing for balance and long strides.
> >
> > Declining of Halo’s sales and population have no bearing on sprint or its effects on gameplay. I can also say that the removal of dual wielding caused the population of Halo to drop and sales to decline. Is that fair? Should we all start clamoring for the return of dual wielding?
>
> Valid points across. I hate debating immersion as justification of game play mechanics for this reason when I have no experience of explaining my argument, especially when immersion matters so little in the long run.

Lore should have little to no effect on multiplayer. The lore+multiplayer people really only came out during Reach, I don’t think any other games have this issue.

Imagine if people said they didn’t want knife movement in CSGO, and wanted a sprint mechanic. People would say the same thing people here are, in a competitive game, lore should be second to gameplay. Knife movement is unrealistic, but no one cares because it works.

12780

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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> > > > >
> > > > > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> > > >
> > > > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
>
> Lore should have little to no effect on multiplayer. The lore+multiplayer people really only came out during Reach, I don’t think any other games have this issue.
>
> Imagine if people said they didn’t want knife movement in CSGO, and wanted a sprint mechanic. People would say the same thing people here are, in a competitive game, lore should be second to gameplay. Knife movement is unrealistic, but no one cares because it works.

While I know you directed the question at them.
Lore+MP players were here since CE.
The knife mechanic is in H5G, your BMS is increased with a sword out. So CSGO players need not be hypothetically questioned.

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> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seeing as how 343, company that was formed because of the game and works only on the game, put sprint in there because they wanted to, I’d say you were to one wanting Halo to cater to your own tastes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stop the game relative talk and focus on Halo 5. BMS may be slightly reduced, but sprint speed is faster than original trilogy BMS. There are countless youtube videos which compare moving across Valhalla/Ragnarok, other remakes, etc. Stop arguing about the illusion of speed. Within Halo 5, sprint speed is faster than BMS. People press the move button to go from one area to another. People sprint to get from one area to another faster than using BMS, but without having their gun up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A higher BMS will never help with immersion. it doesn’t matter if you like immersion or not or question it’s validity, BMS will always have two Spartans fast-walking around the battlefield.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this argument, but the fact that 343 wants to arbitrarily change the gameplay to fit their vision of halo (one that just resembles any other generic sci-fi shooter that is) is entirely selfish. To not change back to classic gameplay based on the declining of halo’s overall sales and population is ignorant and resembles tons of unnecessary stubbornness for the sake of wanting to put their generic identity into halo. Why change the game when it was at its peak of success; is that not ignorant to you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Who says that a higher BMS can’t help create immersion? No one at 343 or Bungie has ever bothered implementing the same mechanics found from sprinting into regular BMS in halo 5 for immersion, such as speed lines, slight panting, and higher FOV to give that same illusion, so you can’t really comment on how BMS can’t function to immerse players like sprint can.
> >
> > Lore should have little to no effect on multiplayer. The lore+multiplayer people really only came out during Reach, I don’t think any other games have this issue.
> >
> > Imagine if people said they didn’t want knife movement in CSGO, and wanted a sprint mechanic. People would say the same thing people here are, in a competitive game, lore should be second to gameplay. Knife movement is unrealistic, but no one cares because it works.
>
> While I know you directed the question at them.
> Lore+MP players were here since CE.
> The knife mechanic is in H5G, your BMS is increased with a sword out. So CSGO players need not be hypothetically questioned.
> https://youtu.be/JCJWERgmLZc?t=48s

But those players were not going around asking for changes to the MP based on lore, and even if they did, they were ignored, which they should be. Asking for changes in a competitive game based off of whatever a book/EU tells you is flawed.

I know this? I meant that if I were to go on any CSGO forum saying we should change how the movement works for realism, I would basically get ignored by most of the community. Asking for things to change that are (were, in Halo’s case) accepted by the majority of the community to fit realism is pointless.

12782

> The best argument against sprint is that Halo doesn’t need sprint.
>
> Cursed Lemon brought this up in a podcast. What problem does sprint solve in the game?
>
> In Halo 1, 2 or 3 was there ever a situation where you thought “I need sprint right now”?
>
> By adding sprint 343 have created their own problem where sprint IS necessary by basing the entire -Yoink- game around it. Now all the maps are huge and the base movement speed is slow, so of course we need sprint now. But if the maps had just been scaled down to the same size as they were in Halo 1 and 2 then sprint would be completely unnecessary.
>
> The glass was already full but 343 insists they need to keep on adding water to it.
>
> All sprint does in Halo is add an extra button you need to push in order to do something you could already do.
>
> CoD NEEDS sprint because if you didn’t have sprint you’d never be able to go from cover to cover since you die in a single shot. Battlefield needs sprint because you spawn on a giant map with 64 players with tanks all around you. Sprint was put in these games because they wouldn’t work without sprint.
>
> 343 has put sprint into Halo 5 because they want to cater to non-Halo fans because they want money, even if it ruins the game play. Ugh.

> In no particular order:
>
> 1. Sprint reduces the penalty of the respawn timer by allowing spawning players to get back to a desirable position faster than they would be able to otherwise.
>
> 2. Sprint increases a player’s margin for error by allowing faster access to and from engagements.
>
> 3. Sprint makes it more difficult for a player’s location to be tracked and communicated. This snowballs into affecting spawning via positional influence rapidly enough to make some spawning situation seem unnecessarily chaotic or random. Additionally this negatively affects an individual’s ability to predictably grenade or shoot at corners and doorways.
>
> 4. Sprint as a base trait results in maps in which the distances between cover rarely feel ideal yet often feel either stretched out or too short. This can also snowball into longer than ideal lines of sight, giving more power to snipers while reducing the relative utility of other weapons (it’s harder to hit longer distance shots beyond red reticle range, especially with the BR and Magnum thanks to their recoil).
>
> 5. Sprint is a dominant trait; including it negatively affects other aspects of gameplay and map design that would have benefited other traits such as jumping and throwing grenades because so much of the game has to be built around it. It stretches the “gun, grenades, melee” triangle into a “gun, grenades, melee, movement” kite where movement occupies the largest point.
>
> 6. When played at higher levels not a single Halo game with Sprint comes close to the pace of a Halo CE 2v2 or Halo 2/ZBNS Reach 4v4 played by the same or equally skilled players. These games feel more immersive because the player is actively doing more throughout the majority of the game, whereas in Sprint-Halo a lot of time on many maps is given up to carefully holding a position and attempting to bait a single kill at a time from the opposing team.
>
> 7. Sprinting forces the player to lower their weapon, thus it is inherently defensive in nature and favours a player attempting to reposition himself. Without Sprint the state of combat is maintained until either playr dies or both fully regain their shields.

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> 2533274970658419;12781:
> But those players were not going around asking for changes to the MP based on lore, and even if they did, they were ignored, which they should be. Asking for changes in a competitive game based off of whatever a book/EU tells you is flawed.
> I know this? I meant that if I were to go on any CSGO forum saying we should change how the movement works for realism, I would basically get ignored by most of the community. Asking for things to change that are (were, in Halo’s case) accepted by the majority of the community to fit realism is pointless.

  1. You clearly will dismiss any alternative to your thinking. Anyone not thinking like the whole does not belong. I’ve long abandoned the ideal that Halo2 does indeed suck myself.

  2. What you really don’t realise is many times on a Counter Strike forum, now and from YEARS AGO, and I mean older than your anti-H4 sprint post, is that while it’s agreed players carry a magic pocket that holds any weapon of size, the “reality” of the situation is that the larger the weapon out, the more it affects your BMS from its weight. So much so that using a Knife allows players to run really fast.

The game uses a bit of “reality” to create a gameplay mechanic you’re wrongly saying it doesn’t.

> 2533274970658419;12782:
> The best argument against sprint is that Halo doesn’t need sprint.
> Cursed Lemon brought this up in a podcast. What problem does sprint solve in the game?
> In Halo 1, 2 or 3 was there ever a situation where you thought “I need sprint right now”?

Yes, in CE, those long walks and the first sound of a frag ting. Part of the group that was hoping for cancelled H2 sprint (though remnants remain).
H2 didn’t launch with a lot of small maps… Just 2 actual “small” maps. Most were squad-BTB maps that could be played 4x4 due to more verticallity over horizontal distance.
H3 didn’t launch with small maps. They came in Foundry and the Mythic pack. MLG increased BMS by 10% because maps were indeed enlarged compared to H2.

> By adding sprint 343 have created their own problem where sprint IS necessary by basing the entire -Yoink- game around it. Now all the maps are huge and the base movement speed is slow, so of course we need sprint now. But if the maps had just been scaled down to the same size as they were in Halo 1 and 2 then sprint would be completely unnecessary.

Really?
H5’s Arena maps all roughly occupy the Pit’s floor space, give or take, and CE-H3 used 2.25BMS, Reach is 2.18BMS, H4 is 2.2BMS and H5 is 2.6BMS.

> All sprint does in Halo is add an extra button you need to push in order to do something you could already do.

Doesn’t take into consideration that indeed, Sprint is the check to prevent Slide and Shoulder Charge to be spammed.

Yes, you can take away Slide and Shoulder Charge by removing Sprint so that you must use Thruster+Melee for a similar effect as SC, and Thruster to get to cover just a few meters away if someone is attacking.

But there’s also a complaint that hitscan weapons are too reliable, so Thruster & Sprint Abilities are separated to allow mobility & combat options to remain more open.

So you can say one thing and ignore another, or you can take the sandbox as a whole. Of course we’re making a reduction every time we compare so singularly.

> CoD NEEDS sprint because if you didn’t have sprint you’d never be able to go from cover to cover since you die in a single shot. Battlefield needs sprint because you spawn on a giant map with 64 players with tanks all around you. Sprint was put in these games because they wouldn’t work without sprint.

Sprint or not, a camper is taking down someone in their line of view. Sprint is more about getting away from grenades or to and from a battle because combat BMS is slow when one readies their weapon to fire (which is a requirement in CoD, not H5).

Battlefield has you spawn in better positions than Halo’s BTB. You’re more often able to get a vehicle than a medic!

It’s casual gamer knowledge to make these kinds of statements, not intimately knowledgeable.