The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
12704

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> > What Celestis doesn’t know is that you can’t run full speed and keep your gun steady. You need to move your arms back and forth to keep your balance and help you run faster. So to run full speed, a Spartan would in fact have to lower their gun.
>
> Yes you can. No you don’t. No he wouldn’t. I’ve done it myself, so why wouldn’t an evolved human from the 2500’s be able to do the same?
> This “realism” argument is A) based on a false premise and B) falls completely flat in the context of a science-fiction setting with sentient AIs and faster-than-light travel.
> Even if this were a thing nowadays (which it isn’t), the extension that genetically and cybernetically altered humans in 500 years bow to the same rules, in a completely fictional setting, no less, is merely a preconceived notion and holds no weight.

No you can’t. Look it up.

12705

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> > Hey, everyone! Arc Trooper is back with another proposal that will most likely get shot down because many can’t compromise lol.
> >
> > What if (drumroll please), sprint was removed from certain arena playlists, but it stayed in BTB, Warzone, and one sprint arena playlist? Yes, things like thrust and stabilizers will still be active, but this is a thread for removing sprint, not Spartan abilities. Also, once you hold the energy sword or gravity hammer, sprint would turn on for you. For games like grifball, action sack, and infection, sprint doesn’t really matter (and I actually like it better when sprint is in those playlists), but for things like team arena, team slayer, FFA, swat, etc. there would be no sprint. So what do you think?
>
> coughCampaigncough

Campaign is not affected by sprint, so it would stay.

12706

The issue is either one experience or the other will be half baked. 343i has problems catering to one side already let alone both.

12707

> 2535455681930574;12704:
> > 2533274801176260;12695:
> > > 2535455681930574;12688:
> > > What Celestis doesn’t know is that you can’t run full speed and keep your gun steady. You need to move your arms back and forth to keep your balance and help you run faster. So to run full speed, a Spartan would in fact have to lower their gun.
> >
> > Yes you can. No you don’t. No he wouldn’t. I’ve done it myself, so why wouldn’t an evolved human from the 2500’s be able to do the same?
> > This “realism” argument is A) based on a false premise and B) falls completely flat in the context of a science-fiction setting with sentient AIs and faster-than-light travel.
> > Even if this were a thing nowadays (which it isn’t), the extension that genetically and cybernetically altered humans in 500 years bow to the same rules, in a completely fictional setting, no less, is merely a preconceived notion and holds no weight.
>
> No you can’t. Look it up.

“Look it up” isn’t really a useful response. If you think you have some evidence to suggest that arm movement is necessary for running at full speed, you should share it with us. Otherwise it’s not useful for you both to go “yes, you can”, “no, you can’t”, “yes, you can” back and forth. Both of you only have your own word, which means nothing.

12708

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> > 2535455681930574;12704:
> > > 2533274801176260;12695:
> > > > 2535455681930574;12688:
> > > > What Celestis doesn’t know is that you can’t run full speed and keep your gun steady. You need to move your arms back and forth to keep your balance and help you run faster. So to run full speed, a Spartan would in fact have to lower their gun.
> > >
> > > Yes you can. No you don’t. No he wouldn’t. I’ve done it myself, so why wouldn’t an evolved human from the 2500’s be able to do the same?
> > > This “realism” argument is A) based on a false premise and B) falls completely flat in the context of a science-fiction setting with sentient AIs and faster-than-light travel.
> > > Even if this were a thing nowadays (which it isn’t), the extension that genetically and cybernetically altered humans in 500 years bow to the same rules, in a completely fictional setting, no less, is merely a preconceived notion and holds no weight.
> >
> > No you can’t. Look it up.
>
> “Look it up” isn’t really a useful response. If you think you have some evidence to suggest that arm movement is necessary for running at full speed, you should share it with us. Otherwise it’s not useful for you both to go “yes, you can”, “no, you can’t”, “yes, you can” back and forth. Both of you only have your own word, which means nothing.

I know, but I was tired and had other responses to reply to.

12709

Well, if we need “evidence” as to the benefits of using arms to sprint, and its reality within Halo, even ignoring how the Chief once tore a tendon;

As for Bungie and Halo “knowing” this but not having it gameplay starting in CE, or adding it to H2 as planned in pre-production, or as a possibility in H3 as Starry Night showed us the Smart Scope Module M6, Mongoose, return of the AR and Bubbleshield;

https://i.imgur.com/z29GZvu.gif(image larger than 4 MB)

https://i.imgur.com/8zZTQP6.gif(image larger than 4 MB)

https://i.imgur.com/CI2n0Pb.gif(image larger than 4 MB)

12710

> 2603643534597848;12709:
> Well, if we need “evidence” as to the benefits of using arms to sprint, and its reality within Halo, even ignoring how the Chief once tore a tendon;
> https://kbandstraining.com/arm-swing-while-running-how-to-get-better-at-sprintinghttp://speedendurance.com/2009/09/11/arm-action-in-sprinting/

These sources seem a bit sketchy. Like, they haven’t done any actual research. Both are just short articles on some running enthusiast websites. There’s that one journal article you could probably also find in the top results of Google with a bit more searching, but I mean, even that only looked at energy consumption and not the maximum achievable speed. Not that I’ve done any proper investigation into the topic, but the whole purpose of arm swing seems kind of unclear from what I remember reading. It’s certainly not clear to me whether arm swing is necessary to achieve high speeds or not.

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> > > > > > > > 2535455681930574;12672:
> > > > > > > > Hey, everyone! Arc Trooper is back with another proposal that will most likely get shot down because many can’t compromise lol.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What if (drumroll please), sprint was removed from certain arena playlists, but it stayed in BTB, Warzone, and one sprint arena playlist? Yes, things like thrust and stabilizers will still be active, but this is a thread for removing sprint, not Spartan abilities. Also, once you hold the energy sword or gravity hammer, sprint would turn on for you. For games like grifball, action sack, and infection, sprint doesn’t really matter (and I actually like it better when sprint is in those playlists), but for things like team arena, team slayer, FFA, swat, etc. there would be no sprint. So what do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Or why not just increase the FOV or the BMS? Want the illusion of speed that sprint gives off? An increase in FOV would do just that. Want to actually get around faster? Increase the BMS while retaining the average original map size. Also, we can call vehicles in Warzone and there are a ton of vehicles usually in BTB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint is unnecessary, just increase the BMS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
> > > > >
> > > > > But a compromise like that makes gameplay inconsostent over the playlists.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would we need sprint for specific playlists when we could increase BMS and/or FoV? While on top of that introduce more means of faster map traversal for players on foot like Portals, Teleporters, Man cannons, conveyor belts and then some?
> > > > >
> > > > > Why do you want sprint? We can’t discuss a compromise if we do not have atleast two points to go from.
> > > >
> > > > I would be fine without sprint as well if stuff like portals,teleporters were added but i dont like the bms or fov increase,removing sprint automatically removes spartan charge and side,)cause you cant do either of those moves without sprinting).Unfortunately some of halo 5’s maps/structures are stretched out for sprint.However we can still keep clamber to get to certain positions
> > >
> > > Why? A slight increased BMS would make it slightly faster, coupled with a good acceleration and it gets responsive. Add to that a larger FoV and you not only get a better awareness of what’s infront of you but you also seem to go faster. FoV has been decreased a lot since the early 2000.
> > >
> > > Removing sprint from Halo 5 would remove slide and Spartan Charge, that however would not hold true to a Halo 6 without sprint as both those could easily be implemented without sprint.
> > >
> > > Clamber does not allow you to reach certain positions that weren’t supposed to be reached. We can do without clamber as well.
> >
> > the only way classic halo can work in halo 5 map design/those made by 343 and some maps by community,needs halo 5 evolved settings to work based on just halo 5 map design,ever heard of evolved posted on team beyond: http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/14157-halo-5-evolved-settingsdetails-v2-update/
>
> I’m talking Halo 6

my suggestions applies for halo 6 as well if we still have all or most of the abilites

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> > > > > I would be fine without sprint as well if stuff like portals,teleporters were added but i dont like the bms or fov increase,removing sprint automatically removes spartan charge and side,)cause you cant do either of those moves without sprinting).Unfortunately some of halo 5’s maps/structures are stretched out for sprint.However we can still keep clamber to get to certain positions
> > > >
> > > > Why? A slight increased BMS would make it slightly faster, coupled with a good acceleration and it gets responsive. Add to that a larger FoV and you not only get a better awareness of what’s infront of you but you also seem to go faster. FoV has been decreased a lot since the early 2000.
> > > >
> > > > Removing sprint from Halo 5 would remove slide and Spartan Charge, that however would not hold true to a Halo 6 without sprint as both those could easily be implemented without sprint.
> > > >
> > > > Clamber does not allow you to reach certain positions that weren’t supposed to be reached. We can do without clamber as well.
> > >
> > > the only way classic halo can work in halo 5 map design/those made by 343 and some maps by community,needs halo 5 evolved settings to work based on just halo 5 map design,ever heard of evolved posted on team beyond: http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/14157-halo-5-evolved-settingsdetails-v2-update/
> >
> > I’m talking Halo 6
>
> my suggestions applies for halo 6 as well if we still have all or most of the abilites

I’m not following.

12713

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> > 2603643534597848;12709:
> > Well, if we need “evidence” as to the benefits of using arms to sprint, and its reality within Halo, even ignoring how the Chief once tore a tendon;
> > https://kbandstraining.com/arm-swing-while-running-how-to-get-better-at-sprintinghttp://speedendurance.com/2009/09/11/arm-action-in-sprinting/
>
> These sources seem a bit sketchy. Like, they haven’t done any actual research. Both are just short articles on some running enthusiast websites. There’s that one journal article you could probably also find in the top results of Google with a bit more searching, but I mean, even that only looked at energy consumption and not the maximum achievable speed. Not that I’ve done any proper investigation into the topic, but the whole purpose of arm swing seems kind of unclear from what I remember reading. It’s certainly not clear to me whether arm swing is necessary to achieve high speeds or not.

1st, they are the research.
2nd, take a nonbeliever of arms helping top speed of a spring in a different article;

> Dr. Ralph Mann notes the following: “Contrary to popular belief, superior arm action does not produce superior sprint performance. In fact, regardless of the quality of the sprinter, there is no significant difference in the arm action. If a sprinter could improve the horizontal velocity simply by moving the arms faster, then even old, out of shape coaches could run as fast as the elite sprinter since virtually everyone can move their arms fast enough to produce an elite level stride rate of five steps per seconds.”
>
> In his Mechanics of Sprinting and Hurdling (2010 Edition). The following line is underlined and in bold. “Thus, it is the legs, not the arms, that primarily dictate success in sprinting.”
> He believes that whatever motion demands that are made upon the arms—like those in sprinting– can easily be produced.
>
> However, Mann qualifies his position by noting that this doesn’t mean arms aren’t important in sprinting. “They are critical to the maintenance of balance,” he says, “as well as providing a slight vertical lift during each stride.

That’s a bit of a contrast to the 2nd article I linked discussing Usian Bolt’s arm use and the lady runner’s exaggerated hip action. A bit funny to state arms don’t affect top speed YET are critical for balance at top speed, and the world’s fastest runner is able to run faster than 5 strides per second with variable arm action.

And I don’t know if you ever watch Bolt, but you can tell when he has the race in the bag (cause he’s in it!) and he knows it because his arm action greatly reduces before his stride (about the last 10m or so he tends to do this).
He tends to cut his arm action down to look at the competition to see how much of pace he can reduce.

Now of course, super soldiers in suits have super muscles, but balance is a matter of weight distribution, and sprint and full sprint are a matter of technicalities past run, perhaps.
But we can use the fastest runner alive to see just how much those arms influence.

12714

> 2535455681930574;12672:
> Hey, everyone! Arc Trooper is back with another proposal that will most likely get shot down because many can’t compromise lol.
>
> What if (drumroll please), sprint was removed from certain arena playlists, but it stayed in BTB, Warzone, and one sprint arena playlist? Yes, things like thrust and stabilizers will still be active, but this is a thread for removing sprint, not Spartan abilities.

This would be perfectly fine by me, but having a FOV increase from maintaining forward motion is an even better compromise, as you aren’t going any faster, and no group is harmed as you still get a “speed” increase, and Halo has a “unique” system.

12715

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> the Chief once tore a tendon

Is there a clip? I’d love to see that

12716

Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million
Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k

Obviously no sprint Halo is more popular. If 343 made a real Halo we could see the population go up. Everyone who likes sprint is delusional.

12717

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> Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million (**WRONG)**Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k
>
> Obviously no sprint Halo is more popular. If 343 made a real Halo we could see the population go up. Everyone who likes sprint is delusional.

Way to simplify it to its bare bones. Halo 2 and 3 on average didn’t have 1 million people playing at any given time they did however have at times 1 million people playing but it was not the average.

Halo 2 and 3 did have a big player population base but this is is due to many factors. And everyone who likes sprint is not delusional there are good aspects to it like having sprint in BTB or larger maps which a lot of people like, just look at Battlefield. Imagine battlefield without sprint it would be a boring terrible game. Your short little no sprint will make halo popular again will not work because it is not that simple.

Sprint has its uses especially in larger map design like warzone (side note not a big fan of it), to make Halo the number one game again it will have to include sprint to make larger maps. There is a large population that like large maps because there can be more action and more interaction.

12718

> 2535455477282651;12716:
> Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million
> Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k

Neither Halo 2 nor Halo 3 ever had over one million players playing simultaneously. The highest provable number of simultanous players in Halo 2 is about 150,000. No evidence exist that there would’ve ever been more players playing simultaneously. A year after release, the momentary population of Halo 2 averaged around 50,000 or so. Likewise, for Halo 3 the highest number of players that can be proven to have been online at the same time is about 372,000, while after a year the average seems to have been more or less 100,000.

When it comes Halo 5, there exists no reliable information about the population. So, could you not spread misinformation, please?

12719

> 2533274825830455;12718:
> > 2535455477282651;12716:
> > Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million
> > Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k
>
> Neither Halo 2 nor Halo 3 ever had over one million players playing simultaneously. The highest provable number of simultanous players in Halo 2 is about 150,000. No evidence exist that there would’ve ever been more players playing simultaneously. A year after release, the momentary population of Halo 2 averaged around 50,000 or so. Likewise, for Halo 3 the highest number of players that can be proven to have been online at the same time is about 372,000, while after a year the average seems to have been more or less 100,000.
>
> When it comes Halo 5, there exists no reliable information about the population. So, could you not spread misinformation, please?

Halo 2 and 3 had like 900,000- 1,100,000 lmao
And even if those were the numbers my point still stands

12720

> 2533274866652866;12717:
> > 2535455477282651;12716:
> > Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million (**WRONG)**Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k
> >
> > Obviously no sprint Halo is more popular. If 343 made a real Halo we could see the population go up. Everyone who likes sprint is delusional.
>
> Way to simplify it to its bare bones. Halo 2 and 3 on average didn’t have 1 million people playing at any given time they did however have at times 1 million people playing but it was not the average.
>
> Halo 2 and 3 did have a big player population base but this is is due to many factors. And everyone who likes sprint is not delusional there are good aspects to it like having sprint in BTB or larger maps which a lot of people like, just look at Battlefield. Imagine battlefield without sprint it would be a boring terrible game. Your short little no sprint will make halo popular again will not work because it is not that simple.
>
> Sprint has its uses especially in larger map design like warzone (side note not a big fan of it), to make Halo the number one game again it will have to include sprint to make larger maps. There is a large population that like large maps because there can be more action and more interaction.

Yeah but you don’t build your maps around Sprint. And just because it is useful in some situations doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Thats like saying wall running would be good because I can cling on to walls and get around the map faster because some maps have a lot of walls. Or Exo suits from CoD AW would be a good ideas because I can jump on top of buildings easier becuase there are tall buildings on this map. No Sprint doesn’t work in Halo.Why do you think the population all of sudden drastically declines when they add enhanced movement to Halo? Sprint shouldn’t be in Halo.

12721

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> > > Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million
> > > Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k
> >
> > Neither Halo 2 nor Halo 3 ever had over one million players playing simultaneously. The highest provable number of simultanous players in Halo 2 is about 150,000. No evidence exist that there would’ve ever been more players playing simultaneously. A year after release, the momentary population of Halo 2 averaged around 50,000 or so. Likewise, for Halo 3 the highest number of players that can be proven to have been online at the same time is about 372,000, while after a year the average seems to have been more or less 100,000.
> >
> > When it comes Halo 5, there exists no reliable information about the population. So, could you not spread misinformation, please?
>
> Halo 2 and 3 had like 900,000- 1,100,000 lmao
> And even if those were the numbers my point still stands

No, they really didn’t. I have all the Halo population data that’s available online, you can see my signature for more info. There exists no evidence of Halo 2 ever having more than 150,000 simultaneous players, or Halo 3 ever having more than 370,000 simultaneous players. I’m sorry, but you’re simply misinformed.

12722

> 2533274825830455;12718:
> > 2535455477282651;12716:
> > Halo 2 and 3 average population = 1 million
> > Halo 4 and 5 average population = 20k
>
> Neither Halo 2 nor Halo 3 ever had over one million players playing simultaneously. The highest provable number of simultanous players in Halo 2 is about 150,000. No evidence exist that there would’ve ever been more players playing simultaneously. A year after release, the momentary population of Halo 2 averaged around 50,000 or so. Likewise, for Halo 3 the highest number of players that can be proven to have been online at the same time is about 372,000, while after a year the average seems to have been more or less 100,000.
>
> When it comes Halo 5, there exists no reliable information about the population. So, could you not spread misinformation, please?

Why does no reliable information about the population of Halo 5 exist?
The only possible reason i can see for 343 to remove the population count, is that they’re not confident showing the small amount of players playing their game.

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> > > > > > > > > > > 2535455681930574;12672:
> > > > > > > > > > > Hey, everyone! Arc Trooper is back with another proposal that will most likely get shot down because many can’t compromise lol.
> > > > > > > > > > > What if (drumroll please), sprint was removed from certain arena playlists, but it stayed in BTB, Warzone, and one sprint arena playlist? Yes, things like thrust and stabilizers will still be active, but this is a thread for removing sprint, not Spartan abilities. Also, once you hold the energy sword or gravity hammer, sprint would turn on for you. For games like grifball, action sack, and infection, sprint doesn’t really matter (and I actually like it better when sprint is in those playlists), but for things like team arena, team slayer, FFA, swat, etc. there would be no sprint. So what do you think?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Or why not just increase the FOV or the BMS? Want the illusion of speed that sprint gives off? An increase in FOV would do just that. Want to actually get around faster? Increase the BMS while retaining the average original map size. Also, we can call vehicles in Warzone and there are a ton of vehicles usually in BTB.
> > > > > > > > > > Sprint is unnecessary, just increase the BMS.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Looks like we have found one of the many who can’t compromise. Unless you actually discuss what would work and possible solutions (besides removing it), then I will not continue the conversation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But a compromise like that makes gameplay inconsostent over the playlists.
> > > > > > > > Why would we need sprint for specific playlists when we could increase BMS and/or FoV? While on top of that introduce more means of faster map traversal for players on foot like Portals, Teleporters, Man cannons, conveyor belts and then some?
> > > > > > > > Why do you want sprint? We can’t discuss a compromise if we do not have atleast two points to go from.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It doesn’t. Just look at Halo online or whatever it’s called. It only has sprint in BTB, and everything works fine. You guys aren’t just gonna say "oh just increase the BMS and then everyone will be happy. No, that’s not what we want. Look at the other side instead of coming up with compromises that only help you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wait! Why do you like sprint? Why do you want it in the game? Oh, and I’d personally be fine with sprint in BTB by the way.
> > > > >
> > > > > You’ve never known that I like sprint? Anyways, it adds more variety by having multiple movement speeds, it adds some realism that I like in my games, it helps me get to my places faster than my opponents so I can surprise them, and pretty much just stuff like that. Just adds another twist you have to think about that I like.
> > > > > So you like my compromise?
> > > >
> > > > I do like your compromise. I really liked Reaches BTB. I disliked H4s and H5s BTB, but that’s because of things like ordinance, vehicle health, weapon ranges etc. I generally dislike Warzone, but I do not think that sprint hurts it. Also, I really liked those temple run custom games and sprint works great with them.
> > > > Now, I wanted to address some of your pro-sprint points. Sprint does not give the player more options. You’re saying that in classic Halos you were only able to walk and now in H5 you’re able to walk and run. But a person with a different perspective might allege that in classic Halos you were able to go full speed with your gun up, while in H5 you have to put your gun down to go full speed. You might argue that this is only a matter of perspective, but realistically: You would get across Midship on H2 just as fast as you’d get across Truth on H5, while holding your gun up in H2. You say you like the realism aspect of it, but I will argue that it is subjective and people like Celestis have argued that Spartans should be able to run with their gun up.
> > > > You like that it gets you from point A to point B faster than by walking, but wouldn’t a better solution in that case be smaller maps or a high BMS?
> > > > BTB maps have to be designed around vehicles a lot of the time, so sprint doesn’t bother me in BTB as long as the vehicles are still a little faster than the player(excluding tanks).
> > >
> > > I’m glad someone likes my compromise. I’m beginning to wonder why even try lol. I’m gonna ask a few YouTubers like Favyn and see what they say.
> >
> > Yeah, like I said, I really liked Reaches BTB and I didn’t think that sprint hurt it.
> >
> >
> > > 2535455681930574;12688:
> > > It does give the player more options. That is a fact. Instead of just crouch walking and normal walking, now it’s crouch walking, normal walking, and sprint.
> > > Yes, there are many different perspectives. The way I see it, you always could hold your gun up in every Halo by using the BMS, but in Halo 4 and 5, they allow you to go faster than before, but at the cost of your gun not being ready.
> > > I haven’t tested it myself, but I thought with sprint, you’d get across Truth faster than BMS on midship, but using Halo 5’s BMS walking across Truth would take longer than Halo 2.
> >
> > Here, you do not get across Truth faster than Midship. But in H2 you have the ability to keep your gun up, while in H5 you need to put your gun down.
> >
> >
> > > 2535455681930574;12688:
> > > What Celestis doesn’t know is that you can’t run full speed and keep your gun steady. You need to move your arms back and forth to keep your balance and help you run faster. So to run full speed, a Spartan would in fact have to lower their gun.
> >
> > Yeah, I can’t speak for him/her, but the argument was that a spartan is a super soldier which should be able to go full speed while having it’s gun up. Celestis would always link this. But I think you should talk to Celestis about it. Because I personally don’t care how it affects the immersion.
> >
> >
> > > 2535455681930574;12688:
> > > I made sure I worded that specific sentence very carefully. I said you can get to a place faster than someone else while sprinting. The other player can still be moving at the BMS, but you can get to their destination faster by sprinting.
> >
> > I see…
>
> Glad we agree.
> So I guess you do get to the other side of midship about as fast as sprinting on Truth. Good to know.
> Look at 0:27 in that video. He is running with his AR up, but you can definitely tell that is not full speed. It has actually been proven that you swing your arms to balance yourself when running fast. Just look at the cutscene in halo 2 where Chief runs away from the glassing beams. Yes he doesn’t have a weapon, but you can see he is running at full speed and swinging his arms to balance himself.

Just so you know, Chiefs running speed in the glassing scene is still the identical 7m/s from normal gameplay.