The sprint discussion thread

Precision · October 19, 2016, 3:08am

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> > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
>
>
> People who justify the use sprint as a “playstyle” are kinda lying to themselves. It’s not a playstyle mechanic like ground pound would be. It’s a habitual thing you need to use on a consistent basis to even operate properly. It’s not something that emphasizes or helps your playstyle, because it’s not optional, nor offensive, it’s forcibly added onto it. And the thing is, no map can be made with sprint in mind without giving it an advantage, because, again, justification for its use and presence in the first place. It’s either, you design the map so sprint has an advantage and thus, justification, or you just don’t add sprint and design the maps around a uniform movement speed.
>
> And no, adding a mechanic doesn’t automatically increase the skillgap. If anything, the added mechanics in Halo 5 have decreased the skillgap, on top of adding needless clutter and complexity. Simplicity in game builds your skillgap in most shooters. With that simplicity giving way to depthful options, like CE’s movement and the multitudes of things you could do with it, all while keeping your weapon up. In fact, most of the “abilities” Halo 5 presents as these new and hip things are things that were in old games, but had a skillgap behind them and weren’t shoved in your face, nor was the game designed around their constant use. Thrust compensates for a strafe, clamber compensates for crouch jumping, slide compensates for a crouch strafe. Like, none of those things increase the skillgap and if anything, decrease them since you make these once legitimately difficult/skill taking options easy, and commonplace. But on top of that, you decrease accessibility for the casual audience by increasing the amount of buttons you need to press for basic movement among other things. For example, to go as fast as I can possibly go in Halo 5, I need to press four buttons in a strict sequence. In Halo 1-3, I needed one. My left analogue stick. Mashing these buttons isn’t skill, it’s habitual, annoying, and tiring.
>
> If you were to remove all of these abilities and design certain map areas/combat scenarios around crouch jumping and strafing/crouch strafing respectively, you’d have a game that’s not only accessible, but has proper depth to its movement abilities without being gimmicky, alienating, and without decreasing the required skill needed to perform them. You’d also have maps that aren’t consistently designed in an inconsistent manner based around these inconsistent abilities, and would be more widely received in a positive light. But more importantly, you’d have a game that could sustain its own population because it’s:
>
> A.) Accessible without being dumbed down.
> B.) Not trying to do other game’s strong suits in a weaker manner, thus homogenizing the FPS market while shooting itself in the foot.
> C.) Most importantly, trying to be of its own in identity and style, like Halo once was doing in 2007, before it followed market trends.

Thrust does not compensate for strafe, it is an added movement ability. Mid-air strafing is not possible without a thruster. Want to talk about being friendly to newer players? Why force someone to crouch jump then? Clambering is easier, and most new people use toggle crouch. Also in many jumps, if you are experienced enough, you can crouch jump without clambering it, and keep your gun up at all times. Boom, more of a skill gap between players at lower levels. I also don`t use a sprint playstyle, I keep my gun up as much as possible and I do perfectly fine. Sprinting most definitely is a playstyle. TONS of players love to sprint everywhere, and they pay dearly for it because they almost never land the first shot if they are spotted. In fact, ground pound is NOT a playstyle, it is a game mechanic. Sprinting and quickly going to CQC is a playstyle. Is it a good one? Hell no, so im not sure why all of these “competitive” players on this forum say it needs to be removed. Sprinting is most definitely optional. If you are saying “I need to sprint everywhere to win because sprint is OP” then you are lying to yourself. Just like if you dont sprint, sometimes you die, there are many more cases to where if you are sprinting you will die. It MOST CERTAINLY adds to the skill gap. Denying that sprint doesnt add to a skill gap, but jumping without clambering does is sheer cognitive dissonance.

343 is just now starting to figure out how to make somewhat decent maps where sprint isnt as annoying after 2 full games. Do you seriously want them to revert back to something they have never even done by telling them to design maps without the sprint factor involved? That is just asking for a horrible release of Halo 6. H3A will be out later and I probably will play that the most of anything. Yes it doesnt have sprint, like I said im not some sprinting fanboy COD kid, but H3 was its own game and made strides in its own way. H5 has made progress and is a very smooth FPS because of how well the abilities make the player feel. They feel they have more control over their character in almost every way more than the other games. Trying to stunt this will lose a lot of players, period.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 3:13am

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> >
> > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
>
>
> No
>
> Any ability that:
> -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
>
> For instance:
> An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
>
> Clamber
> Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.

Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.

OpaqueJaguar286 · October 19, 2016, 3:15am

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> > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
>
>
> People who justify the use of sprint as a “playstyle” are kinda lying to themselves. It’s not a playstyle mechanic like ground pound would be. It’s a habitual thing you need to use on a consistent basis to even operate properly. It’s not something that emphasizes or helps your playstyle, because it’s not optional, nor offensive, it’s forcibly added onto it. And the thing is, no map can be made with sprint in mind without giving it an advantage, because, again, justification for its use and presence in the first place. It’s either, you design the map so sprint has an advantage and thus, justification, or you just don’t add sprint and design the maps around a uniform movement speed.
>
> And no, adding a mechanic doesn’t automatically increase the skillgap. If anything, the added mechanics in Halo 5 have decreased the skillgap, on top of adding needless clutter and complexity. Simplicity in game builds your skillgap in most shooters. With that simplicity giving way to depthful options, like CE’s movement and the multitudes of things you could do with it, all while keeping your weapon up. In fact, most of the “abilities” Halo 5 presents as these new and hip things are things that were in old games, but had a skillgap behind them and weren’t shoved in your face, nor was the game designed around their constant use. Thrust compensates for a strafe, clamber compensates for crouch jumping, slide compensates for a crouch strafe. Like, none of those things increase the skillgap and if anything, decrease them since you make these once legitimately difficult/skill taking options easy, and commonplace. But on top of that, you decrease accessibility for the casual audience by increasing the amount of buttons you need to press for basic movement among other things. For example, to go as fast as I can possibly go in Halo 5, I need to press four buttons in a strict sequence. In Halo 1-3, I needed one. My left analogue stick. Mashing these buttons isn’t skill, it’s habitual, annoying, and tiring.
>
> If you were to remove all of these abilities and design certain map areas/combat scenarios around crouch jumping and strafing/crouch strafing respectively, you’d have a game that’s not only accessible, but has proper depth to its movement abilities without being gimmicky, alienating, and without decreasing the required skill needed to perform them. You’d also have maps that aren’t consistently designed in an inconsistent manner based around these inconsistent abilities, and would be more widely received in a positive light. But more importantly, you’d have a game that could sustain its own population because it’s:
>
> A.) Accessible without being dumbed down.
> B.) Not trying to do other game’s strong suits in a weaker manner, thus homogenizing the FPS market while shooting itself in the foot.
> C.) Most importantly, trying to be of its own in identity and style, like Halo once was doing in 2007, before it followed market trends.

This sums up why I don’t like SA’s.

Exuberant_Umbra · October 19, 2016, 3:52am

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> Thrust does not compensate for strafe, it is an added movement ability. Mid-air strafing is not possible without a thruster. Want to talk about being friendly to newer players? Why force someone to crouch jump then? Clambering is easier, and most new people use toggle crouch. Also in many jumps, if you are experienced enough, you can crouch jump without clambering it, and keep your gun up at all times. Boom, more of a skill gap between players at lower levels. I also don`t use a sprint playstyle, I keep my gun up as much as possible and I do perfectly fine. Sprinting most definitely is a playstyle. TONS of players love to sprint everywhere, and they pay dearly for it because they almost never land the first shot if they are spotted. In fact, ground pound is NOT a playstyle, it is a game mechanic. Sprinting and quickly going to CQC is a playstyle. Is it a good one? Hell no, so im not sure why all of these “competitive” players on this forum say it needs to be removed. Sprinting is most definitely optional. If you are saying “I need to sprint everywhere to win because sprint is OP” then you are lying to yourself. Just like if you dont sprint, sometimes you die, there are many more cases to where if you are sprinting you will die. It MOST CERTAINLY adds to the skill gap. Denying that sprint doesnt add to a skill gap, but jumping without clambering does is sheer cognitive dissonance.

343 is just now starting to figure out how to make somewhat decent maps where sprint isnt as annoying after 2 full games. Do you seriously want them to revert back to something they have never even done by telling them to design maps without the sprint factor involved? That is just asking for a horrible release of Halo 6. H3A will be out later and I probably will play that the most of anything. Yes it doesnt have sprint, like I said im not some sprinting fanboy COD kid, but H3 was its own game and made strides in its own way. H5 has made progress and is a very smooth FPS because of how well the abilities make the player feel. They feel they have more control over their character in almost every way more than the other games. Trying to stunt this will lose a lot of players, period.

Older Halos didn’t force you to crouch jump, that was my exact point which you seemingly missed. Clambering being easier is exactly that. It’s unneededly easier and unarguably a crutch for new players, but is forced on you in that maps are specifically designed with it in mind. You don’t add anything to the player’s skill with clamber, you just take a gameplay option that used to take some skill to perform, and give it to everyone in a new form, while designing maps around it, making crouch jumping next to irrelevant. And if you talk about Halo 5 jumps, no, you really can’t crouch jump with them. For example, the cubbies on Truth? You can’t do that unless you buff jump height, like in Evolved settings. Same for a lot of Plaza jumps, or Empire/Eden jumps. Or any map in this game. It’s not as easy as “just crouch jump”. There’re so many jumps that are specifically designed around clamber that take away your ability to crouch jump, because the height is ABOVE your jump/crouch jump height, again, to incentivize clamber.

And how is Ground Pound not a playstyle ability? It literally gives you to option to either ground pound, or just jump and attack from above with your gun, or melee. It’s not required for anything, and isn’t forced on you. It can also be used to make quicker movements across the map in gametypes like flag. It’s versatile, but not forced on you. Sprint is different. It’s forced on the player for basic map movement, and not using it results in you being put at a disadvantage by default, because you can’t cross distances quickly, you can’t rush to contest power weapons/powerups, nor help your teammates as fast. It’s the farthest ability from being a “playstyle” one because everyone’s forced to use it for basic movement.

And you know just saying “it’s a playstyle/it’s optional/if you believe X, you’re lying to yourself” without providing some substance to your paragraph doesn’t prove your point? There was no argument in that entire first paragraph. Just statements without reasoning. Provide some reasoning. HOW is it a playstyle? HOW is “sprinting everywhere” a playstyle and not just basic gameplay because of how maps are designed, with you just catching them off guard incidentally. HOW is ground pound “not a playstyle” ability because it’s a game mechanic? Being a game mechanic goes for anything. Sprint’s a game mechanic. Guess it’s not a playstyle ability. I’m not being serious there, because there’s more to it that I’ve gone on about, but “it’s a game mechanic” is not proper reasoning for not being playstyle based, and is beyond flawed and outright wrong because of how it can be applied to everything else, because “playstyle” and “game mechanic” are not mutually exclusive.

343i’s spent two games and 4 years trying to make DECENT maps where sprint isn’t as annoying or detrimental compared to the 6 years Bungie spent designing maps around a lack of sprint with maps that remain iconic in Halo to this day. If you’ve spent 4 years trying to balance something within your game to no success, chances are, it’s not going to work, and you should drop it, for more reason than just balance. Perhaps to revive the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players you’ve alienated and driven off.

And how do you have “more control” when each and every action you do TAKES control from you? When you thrust, you can’t shoot or move your viewpoint, when you slide you can’t shoot or move your viewpoint, when you sprint you can’t shoot. Same for GP and Spartan Charge. How is that “more” control? It’s just artificial smoothness in regards to how the animations feel. How exactly did Halo 5 make progress when it couldn’t support its own population 6 months after launch? That’s a sign of failure, not success or progress. And you know, the amount of players you’d potentially bring back with the removal of these things is much greater than those you’d potentially lose.

Hatchetforce · October 19, 2016, 3:53am

I look at sprinting from a realism point of view. That realism is established by the books. Yes, that canon. Sprinting needs to stay. 343 should be careful in this case of “giving the squeaky wheel the grease” at the expense of all the other wheels.

EDIT:

Exuberant said:

“Immersion isn’t justification for inclusion, as said before”

Well it is in this case. And “said before” is immaterial. Repetition of a matter does not make it correct. Every time Bungie or 343 has strayed from the canon, trouble ensues. The issues you have with Sprint are not actually caused by Sprint. Maybe you should research matters more. Map layout, weapons access, other capabilities and designs have a far greater impact on the game than Sprint. People look for a simple solution to the matter and they converge on the obvious. Sprint wasn’t in previous titles so it must be the culprit. No. Usually the simplest explanation is correct. Just not in this case. The issue here is one of a more complex design flaw. Look at two modern shooters. BF4 and COD’s MW series. Both include sprint. Both in many cases, not all, but many have similar weapons. Even if you remove the vehicles from the game the actual on foot combat plays out in a wholly different fashion. Two games that look so similar but play so vastly different and both have Sprint. Sprint is not your enemy in this case.

For the record I do not like the multiplayer in HALO 5. I prefer 2 and 3. But Sprinting is not the issue. The Req System is far more evil than Sprinting. Allowing Spawn raping is far more evil than Sprinting. These maps are designed for quick player deaths. This forces the Req System which drives a sufficient number of players to purchase Req Cards. It is a money machine. Despite all of this and my not liking HALO 5 MP, Sprinting is not the issue.

Exuberant_Umbra · October 19, 2016, 3:56am

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> I look at sprinting from a realism point of view. That realism is established by the books. Yes, that canon. Sprinting needs to stay. 343 should be careful in this case of “giving the squeaky wheel the grease” at the expense of all the other wheels.

Immersion isn’t justification for inclusion, as said before.

Naqser · October 19, 2016, 3:56am

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> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> >
> >
> > No
> >
> > Any ability that:
> > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> >
> > For instance:
> > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> >
> > Clamber
> > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
>
>
> Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.

Then don’t say that any added mechanic increases the skill gap.
Did I mention the Hydra? No. I’m not talking game assets, I’m talking game mechanics.

Did I compare anything to sprint? No, I challenged the notion that any added mechanic increases the skill gap and provided examples with explanations.

Yeah I’m sure sprint allows that kind of stuff compared to non-sprint games without any reasoning as to why or how that is the case. Shall we go with “blind acceptance”?

So, how much skill actually goes into deciding wether or not to sprint? Then again, since when was the Skill Gap based on decision making only, as opposed to the effects of mechanics have on the gameplay once you’ve decided what to do.

Am I wrong in my assumption that you in a previous post tied people’s dislike and opinion of sprint to their “ability to adapt”? Coming to the conclusion that failure to adapt resulted in a dislike for a specific mechanic? In this case sprint. Wait, you rant on Spartan Charge and the Hydra, one would think that you dislike them, I’m going to have to say that you’ve utterly failed to adapt.

xTheMorningstar · October 19, 2016, 4:03am

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> 343 should be careful in this case of “giving the squeaky wheel the grease” at the expense of all the other wheels.

Both 343 and Bungie have already done this by injecting sprint into halo
Halo never had sprint, those games are argueably
more popular and more successful, however because of the pressure to keep up with the “modern fps” trend it was thrown into a game which s existing mechanics co nflicted with it to appease players who were not fans of the franchise

Sprint and other such mechanics were put into halo to attract players who were not halo fans
The squeaky wheel already got the grease which is partly why the franchise has been in decline ever since

Precision · October 19, 2016, 4:54am

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>
> Older Halos didn’t force you to crouch jump, that was my exact point which you seemingly missed. Clambering being easier is exactly that. It’s unneededly easier and unarguably a crutch for new players, but is forced on you in that maps are specifically designed with it in mind. You don’t add anything to the player’s skill with clamber, you just take a gameplay option that used to take some skill to perform, and give it to everyone in a new form, while designing maps around it, making crouch jumping next to irrelevant. And if you talk about Halo 5 jumps, no, you really can’t crouch jump with them. For example, the cubbies on Truth? You can’t do that unless you buff jump height, like in Evolved settings. Same for a lot of Plaza jumps, or Empire/Eden jumps. Or any map in this game. It’s not as easy as “just crouch jump”. There’re so many jumps that are specifically designed around clamber that take away your ability to crouch jump, because the height is ABOVE your jump/crouch jump height, again, to incentivize clamber.
>
> And how is Ground Pound not a playstyle ability? It literally gives you to option to either ground pound, or just jump and attack from above with your gun, or melee. It’s not required for anything, and isn’t forced on you. It can also be used to make quicker movements across the map in gametypes like flag. It’s versatile, but not forced on you. Sprint is different. It’s forced on the player for basic map movement, and not using it results in you being put at a disadvantage by default, because you can’t cross distances quickly, you can’t rush to contest power weapons/powerups, nor help your teammates as fast. It’s the farthest ability from being a “playstyle” one because everyone’s forced to use it for basic movement.
>
> And you know just saying “it’s a playstyle/it’s optional/if you believe X, you’re lying to yourself” without providing some substance to your paragraph doesn’t prove your point? There was no argument in that entire first paragraph. Just statements without reasoning. Provide some reasoning. HOW is it a playstyle? HOW is “sprinting everywhere” a playstyle and not just basic gameplay because of how maps are designed, with you just catching them off guard incidentally. HOW is ground pound “not a playstyle” ability because it’s a game mechanic? Being a game mechanic goes for anything. Sprint’s a game mechanic. Guess it’s not a playstyle ability. I’m not being serious there, because there’s more to it that I’ve gone on about, but “it’s a game mechanic” is not proper reasoning for not being playstyle based, and is beyond flawed and outright wrong because of how it can be applied to everything else, because “playstyle” and “game mechanic” are not mutually exclusive.
>
> 343i’s spent two games and 4 years trying to make DECENT maps where sprint isn’t as annoying or detrimental compared to the 6 years Bungie spent designing maps around a lack of sprint with maps that remain iconic in Halo to this day. If you’ve spent 4 years trying to balance something within your game to no success, chances are, it’s not going to work, and you should drop it, for more reason than just balance. Perhaps to revive the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players you’ve alienated and driven off.
>
> And how do you have “more control” when each and every action you do TAKES control from you? When you thrust, you can’t shoot or move your viewpoint, when you slide you can’t shoot or move your viewpoint, when you sprint you can’t shoot. Same for GP and Spartan Charge. How is that “more” control? It’s just artificial smoothness in regards to how the animations feel. How exactly did Halo 5 make progress when it couldn’t support its own population 6 months after launch? That’s a sign of failure, not success or progress. And you know, the amount of players you’d potentially bring back with the removal of these things is much greater than those you’d potentially lose.

Actually there were quite a few jumps that required a well timed crouch jump to navigate maps in certain ways in the older games. Also if you want to jump into cubbies on truth, maybe argue for higher jump height? That has dropped as well but it seems no one is complaining about that. Nah, instead lets all whine about sprint because its too hard to figure out when and when not to use it apparently. Who cares if we have to clamber to make some jumps? Many jumps dont need it, just like how in the older games not every jump needed a crouch, but some do. To go that route you make that decision instead of taking a different route. Halo is 80% about decision making ability, and 20% about actually shooting. This has NEVER CHANGED. You blaming sprint for every fault in the game is your crutch.

Again I will say, Ground pound is NOT a playstyle while sprinting actually is (even though I personally dislike the playstyle). Why? Let me break it down for you people barney style since you want to act like 6 year olds and try to say I have no argument even though I have been making valid points all night. Sprinting can be done in almost every situation, ground pound cannot. If I see a player across the yard, I cant magically ground pound him, but I can sprint towards him to a better position or shoot from my current position. Sprint also comes with spartan charge. This makes sprinting an offensive tactic, no matter how dumb spartan charge may be. Ground pound is an ability that can be used given the right circumstances. If you had a jetpack (please god no) then ground pound would be a playstyle because your whole game could be played like that. You can sprint/charge/spray and pray all over every map, but you cannot only focus on ground pounds against people close to your skill level and even be slightly effective. It is an opportunistic spartan ability, not a playstyle.

Also, making maps without sprint as a factor has always been much easier. It was done amazingly even in the N64 days, everyone knew what those maps needed when bungie was making games. Making maps for H5 and it`s abilities are definitely much more of a challenge, because you actually DO have more control. I can thrust in any direction, even changing my direction mid-air, and have my reticle back up to shoot in less that 1/10th of a second. I can boost/slide/jump over a gap and if i see someone under me I can slam fist first into the back of their head, embarrassing them. Saying we have less control is probably the worst point you have tried to make.

You saying that sprint killed off hundreds of thousands of players is completely untrue even though I can see why you think so. You need to remember that during the H2 and H3 games, halo was a very dominant franchise because it was a great game in a time when there werent very many good shooters available. When people played it usually came down to COD vs Halo. Then BF was starting to get bigger, PC gaming started making a comeback, newer console franchises started entering the scene or getting bigger like destiny, tom clancey, and titanfall, ect. Back then, a ton of people who had xboxes basically picked between 2 game franchises. Now the market is full of FPS games and every population has been spread out.

With that being said, I really wish some of you would actually read and sleep on what I have said. I use to think the same exact way you do. I refused to play reach and h4 mainly because of sprint. Now that it has changed for the better, I urge you to do the same. Anymore attempted insults and I will stop playing nice.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 5:09am

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> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> > >
> > >
> > > No
> > >
> > > Any ability that:
> > > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> > >
> > > For instance:
> > > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> > >
> > > Clamber
> > > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
> >
> >
> > Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.
>
>
> Then don’t say that any added mechanic increases the skill gap.
> Did I mention the Hydra? No. I’m not talking game assets, I’m talking game mechanics.
>
> Did I compare anything to sprint? No, I challenged the notion that any added mechanic increases the skill gap and provided examples with explanations.
>
> Yeah I’m sure sprint allows that kind of stuff compared to non-sprint games without any reasoning as to why or how that is the case. Shall we go with “blind acceptance”?
>
> So, how much skill actually goes into deciding wether or not to sprint? Then again, since when was the Skill Gap based on decision making only, as opposed to the effects of mechanics have on the gameplay once you’ve decided what to do.
>
> Am I wrong in my assumption that you in a previous post tied people’s dislike and opinion of sprint to their “ability to adapt”? Coming to the conclusion that failure to adapt resulted in a dislike for a specific mechanic? In this case sprint. Wait, you rant on Spartan Charge and the Hydra, one would think that you dislike them, I’m going to have to say that you’ve utterly failed to adapt.

Given the context of my paragraph beforehand, I thought you were making that comparison. In that case i`m sorry.
Now you are correct that a hydra closes a skill gap and I agree. But the reason I say they cant be compared is because the hydra is not what I would consider to be a game mechanic. It is more of a weapon ability. I consider anything that everyone starts out with the ability to do as a game mechanic. The basic building blocks of the game.

Also I do hate spartan charge because it rewards people for over sprinting. Is it annoying? YES. Does it need to be removed? I dont think so. I think if they nerfed the knockback and stun quite a bit then it would still be useful, canon, and easily reversed. I also hate auto-lock weapons, even the plasma pistol. But I still use them because if I dont, the other team will. I have adapted and I know how to use them, but that doesnt mean I like them whatsoever. Its one of the parts of halo I have never liked.

Now, yes quite a bit of skill goes in to deciding when and when not to sprint. Decision making has always been the biggest skill determination in halo. I have known people who can perfect kill anything that moves, but couldnt get a 50 in H2, H3, or even past diamond 4 in H5. I am not the best shot out there, and even on my bad days where I cant aim for crap I still usually do pretty well. The skill gap is definitely created by one`s ability to adapt and make smart plays.

Exuberant_Umbra · October 19, 2016, 5:59am

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> Also if you want to jump into cubbies on truth, maybe argue for higher jump height? That has dropped as well but it seems no one is complaining about that. Nah, instead lets all whine about sprint because its too hard to figure out when and when not to use it apparently. Who cares if we have to clamber to make some jumps? Many jumps dont need it, just like how in the older games not every jump needed a crouch, but some do. To go that route you make that decision instead of taking a different route. Halo is 80% about decision making ability, and 20% about actually shooting. This has NEVER CHANGED.

Argue for a higher jump height and make most clamber routes irrelevant? Don’t think that’s gonna happen when 343i banks so heavily on Spartan Abilities. However, I’m complaining exactly about the lack of jump height in favor of clamber because it makes crouch jumping next to irrelevant. And we whine about sprint not because we don’t know “when to use it properly and when not to” (Flawed logic and disregard for what we’ve said), but because it has actual negative effects on the game and its pacing, and skillgap, which we’ve spoken on. Has nothing to with our use of it.

And who cares about clambering? People who want to crouch jump, and have some semblance of skill in their basic movement but can’t and don’t? Those who’ve played the games for the past 14 years and been able to jump in an a uninterrupted manner without being forced to use clamber to do so? Comparing an older game’s jump to crouch jump ratio to the newer game’s clamber to crouch jumping is only similar in the sense that clamber (Like the old jump) is a constant design decision in maps, but unlike the old jump, or crouch jump, it overshadows crouch jumping because it effectively replaces it, with basic geometry being higher than your default jump can handle and thus the effective range of crouch jumping being kicked out.

Also, random arbitrary numbers placed into your argument without a source or citation don’t strengthen it. Please don’t do that. And furthermore, I never blamed sprint for every fault in the game. It certainly is what makes up a lot of the faults, but not the sole reason to my issues.

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> Again I will say, Ground pound is NOT a playstyle while sprinting actually is (even though I personally dislike the playstyle). Sprinting can be done in almost every situation, ground pound cannot. If I see a player across the yard, I cant magically ground pound him, but I can sprint towards him to a better position or shoot from my current position. Sprint also comes with spartan charge. This makes sprinting an offensive tactic, no matter how dumb spartan charge may be. Ground pound is an ability that can be used given the right circumstances. You can sprint/charge/spray and pray all over every map, but you cannot only focus on ground pounds against people close to your skill level and even be slightly effective. It is an opportunistic spartan ability, not a playstyle.

Sprinting can be done in every situation, ground pound cannot. Exactly. Ground Pound is not only situational, but with it comes many other options, compared to sprint where you’re constantly using it to navigate the map. With Ground Pound, you can either commit to it, or use a weapon/melee attack from above. You’re not forced into its use, and thus, your use of ground pound over other attacks can become a part of your playstyle. You can become adept at finding areas to ground pound in, and thus learn to get better with it, and adapt to its weaknesses and upsides. It’s the definition of a playstyle attack. You can choose to make it a part of what you do normally, or you don’t because the other options are just as viable. There’s a reason Jimbo (An EU pro) refers to himself as “The Ground Pound King”, and NO ONE refers to themselves as “The Sprint King”.

Sprint isn’t like that. Sprint is something you need to do to simply operate on the same level as everyone else. You’re forced to use it, or perform in a less consistent manner compared to other players who can over-contest you in weapons/powerups/positions otherwise. It’s not a playstyle, it’s a habit. And Spartan Charge, an inherently broken mechanic (That was made to fix the issue of sprint double melees, a sprint exclusive issue) doesn’t make sprint on its own offensive. It’s inherently defensive, because it still allows for escape from dangerous situations faster than your opponents can follow. You can’t use it “offensively” because it doesn’t help in combat. It’s a transport ability, it isn’t an attack maneuver. Spartan Charge at best is a panic melee, over an attack people will constantly go for, because when people sprint, they don’t go “Imma go Spartan Charge this guy”. It happens as a panic response upon encountering enemies when you’re in sprint and get caught with your gun down.

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> Also, making maps without sprint as a factor has always been much easier. It was done amazingly even in the N64 days, everyone knew what those maps needed when bungie was making games. Making maps for H5 and it`s abilities are definitely much more of a challenge, because you actually DO have more control. I can thrust in any direction, even changing my direction mid-air, and have my reticle back up to shoot in less that 1/10th of a second. I can boost/slide/jump over a gap and if i see someone under me I can slam fist first into the back of their head, embarrassing them. Saying we have less control is probably the worst point you have tried to make.
>
> You saying that sprint killed off hundreds of thousands of players is completely untrue even though I can see why you think so. You need to remember that during the H2 and H3 games, halo was a very dominant franchise because it was a great game in a time when there werent very many good shooters available. When people played it usually came down to COD vs Halo.

You realize that N64 games are entirely different than shooter titles of the now? Bar that, so what if you can thrust in any direction. In past games you could move in any direction without sacrificing the ability to fight. I could jump up a ledge using my skills, without relying on one button and a forced animation to carry me up. I could add an element of unpredictability to my strafe, mid-strafe by jumping which gave me a vertical boost over horizontal. The thing is, jumping is still properly predictable as my momentum’s able to be followed much easier, meaning the person who has the better shot can counter it. It wasn’t just a jerky, unpredictable action. When you jumped or strafed in earlier Halos, you didn’t have your reticle back up in “1/10th” a second, you always had it up, consistently. Saying you can do “x” action doesn’t prove how you have more control, it just proves you can do more gimmicky things. It doesn’t get into how the ability mechanically works.

And what? There weren’t many good shooters? What. CoD was literally on the rise, Gears of War existed, as did Battlefield. That’s completely false. Halo 3 alone stood against and above CoD for its entire lifespan (Until 2009/10) and had many competitors enter the frame, but there’s a reason people stuck with Halo despite the viable competition available to the consumer. And it’s not false that Halo taking on common gameplay elements to go with the trends ended up resulting in its loss in popularity, and overall identity.

Naqser · October 19, 2016, 6:21am

> 2533274838217981;12033:
> > 2533274795123910;12030:
> > > 2533274838217981;12025:
> > > > 2533274795123910;12023:
> > > > > 2533274838217981;12020:
> > > > > > 2533274886529017;12019:
> > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No
> > > >
> > > > Any ability that:
> > > > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > > > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > > > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > > > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> > > >
> > > > For instance:
> > > > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > > > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> > > >
> > > > Clamber
> > > > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.
> >
> >
> > Then don’t say that any added mechanic increases the skill gap.
> > Did I mention the Hydra? No. I’m not talking game assets, I’m talking game mechanics.
> >
> > Did I compare anything to sprint? No, I challenged the notion that any added mechanic increases the skill gap and provided examples with explanations.
> >
> > Yeah I’m sure sprint allows that kind of stuff compared to non-sprint games without any reasoning as to why or how that is the case. Shall we go with “blind acceptance”?
> >
> > So, how much skill actually goes into deciding wether or not to sprint? Then again, since when was the Skill Gap based on decision making only, as opposed to the effects of mechanics have on the gameplay once you’ve decided what to do.
> >
> > Am I wrong in my assumption that you in a previous post tied people’s dislike and opinion of sprint to their “ability to adapt”? Coming to the conclusion that failure to adapt resulted in a dislike for a specific mechanic? In this case sprint. Wait, you rant on Spartan Charge and the Hydra, one would think that you dislike them, I’m going to have to say that you’ve utterly failed to adapt.
>
>
> Given the context of my paragraph beforehand, I thought you were making that comparison. In that case i`m sorry.

Now you are correct that a hydra closes a skill gap and I agree. But the reason I say they cant be compared is because the hydra is not what I would consider to be a game mechanic. It is more of a weapon ability. I consider anything that everyone starts out with the ability to do as a game mechanic. The basic building blocks of the game.

Also I do hate spartan charge because it rewards people for over sprinting. Is it annoying? YES. Does it need to be removed? I dont think so. I think if they nerfed the knockback and stun quite a bit then it would still be useful, canon, and easily reversed. I also hate auto-lock weapons, even the plasma pistol. But I still use them because if I dont, the other team will. I have adapted and I know how to use them, but that doesnt mean I like them whatsoever. Its one of the parts of halo I have never liked.

Now, yes quite a bit of skill goes in to deciding when and when not to sprint. Decision making has always been the biggest skill determination in halo. I have known people who can perfect kill anything that moves, but couldnt get a 50 in H2, H3, or even past diamond 4 in H5. I am not the best shot out there, and even on my bad days where I cant aim for crap I still usually do pretty well. The skill gap is definitely created by one`s ability to adapt and make smart plays.

And again, I am not talking about the Hydra and its projectile lock on. I am talking about a mechanic allowing players to lock on to targets using any gun, in layman terms, auto-aim. Not aim assists, not bullet magnetism, not seeking projectiles. An implemented auto-aim mechanic that automatically aims at the locked target for the player. An aim-bot base mechanic given to every single player upon spawn usable with every weapon, melee and grenades, usable for a short period of time.
Section 8: Predjudice
Iirc, GTA 4.

So you’ve adapted to things despite disliking them but find no issue in telling others who dislike sprint they’ve failed to adapt?

This is how I see skill and skill gap:

Skill gap, is what I’d like to explain as the difference between what an experienced user who knows the program can do with it, vs the expert user, who has reached the “usability ceiling”, or is close to it. The usability ceiling being the point where you can get no more “effect” out of the program despite your skill.

I know eveeything about MS paint, but I can’t draw a photorealistic car in it. Others can.
Put in a wireframe model of a car that I can apply to the paper and the color, and I’m jumping far ahead in my ability in drawing a photorealistic car, while the expert user only saves time.

Reduction in skill gap is moving users closer to each other in terms of what’s possible to do with the given assets in an efficient manner.

If we then want to use sprint:
Generally easier to escape, it is easier for an escapee to disengange an encounter due to the assailant not being able to keep up and deal damage at the same time, as opposed to non-sprint.

The escapee’s ability to disengage is increased towards an “expert’s” ability to disengage.

Making a decision however is relative skill between players. While the game does present you with a series of choices, it’s not the abilities / mechanics themselves that in terms of “skill to use efficiently” benefit from those choices, it is if you make a mistake or not, choosing the right option compared to your opponent., based on what you know.

Sprint, or any ability, isn’t more skillful to use, doesn’t add to the skill gap, becsuse they present the options “use or don’t use”.

Perhaps the easiest way to explain how I see it is:
A mechanic present you with options, but that doesn’t add to the skill gap of the game itself, only to the relative skill of the players present.
How an ability affects a game in terms of usability is different than the skill used in making the choices based on the ability.

/How I see it, explained in a somewhat to me satisfactory way.

If we’re going to share stories I feel the choice of using / not using sprint is second nature, not something I contemplate every turn, so to me the decision to use or not use doesn’t add skill.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 6:34am

> 2533274886529017;12034:
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> >
>
>
> Argue for a higher jump height and make most clamber routes irrelevant? Don’t think that’s gonna happen when 343i banks so heavily on Spartan Abilities. However, I’m complaining exactly about the lack of jump height in favor of clamber because it makes crouch jumping next to irrelevant. And we whine about sprint not because we don’t know “when to use it properly and when not to” (Flawed logic and disregard for what we’ve said), but because it has actual negative effects on the game and its pacing, and skillgap, which we’ve spoken on. Has nothing to with our use of it.
>
> And who cares about clambering? People who want to crouch jump, and have some semblance of skill in their basic movement but can’t and don’t? Those who’ve played the games for the past 14 years and been able to jump in an a uninterrupted manner without being forced to use clamber to do so? Comparing an older game’s jump to crouch jump ratio to the newer game’s clamber to crouch jumping is only similar in the sense that clamber (Like the old jump) is a constant design decision in maps, but unlike the old jump, or crouch jump, it overshadows crouch jumping because it effectively replaces it, with basic geometry being higher than your default jump can handle and thus the effective range of crouch jumping being kicked out.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> >
>
>
> Sprinting can be done in every situation, ground pound cannot. Exactly. Ground Pound is not only situational, but with it comes many other options, compared to sprint where you’re constantly using it to navigate the map. With Ground Pound, you can either commit to it, or use a weapon/melee attack from above. You’re not forced into its use, and thus, your use of ground pound over other attacks can become a part of your playstyle. You can become adept at finding areas to ground pound in, and thus learn to get better with it, and adapt to its weaknesses and upsides. It’s the definition of a playstyle attack. You can choose to make it a part of what you do normally, or you don’t because the other options are just as viable. There’s a reason Jimbo (An EU pro) refers to himself as “The Ground Pound King”, and NO ONE refers to themselves as “The Sprint King”.
>
> Sprint isn’t like that. Sprint is something you need to do to simply operate on the same level as everyone else. You’re forced to use it, or perform in a less consistent manner compared to other players who can over-contest you in weapons/powerups/positions otherwise. It’s not a playstyle, it’s a habit. And Spartan Charge, an inherently broken mechanic (That was made to fix the issue of sprint double melees, a sprint exclusive issue) doesn’t make sprint on its own offensive. It’s inherently defensive, because it still allows for escape from dangerous situations faster than your opponents can follow. You can’t use it “offensively” because it doesn’t help in combat. It’s a transport ability, it isn’t an attack maneuver. Spartan Charge at best is a panic melee, over an attack people will constantly go for, because when people sprint, they don’t go “Imma go Spartan Charge this guy”. It happens as a panic response upon encountering enemies when you’re in sprint and get caught with your gun down.
>
>
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> >
>
>
> Bar that, so what if you can thrust in any direction. In past games you could move in any direction without sacrificing the ability to fight. I could jump up a ledge using my skills, without relying on one button and a forced animation to carry me up. I could add an element of unpredictability to my strafe, mid-strafe by jumping which gave me a vertical boost over horizontal. The thing is, jumping is still properly predictable as my momentum’s able to be followed much easier, meaning the person who has the better shot can counter it. It wasn’t just a jerky, unpredictable action. When you jumped or strafed in earlier Halos, you didn’t have your reticle back up in “1/10th” a second, you always had it up, consistently. Saying you can do “x” action doesn’t prove how you have more control, it just proves you can do more gimmicky things. It doesn’t get into how the ability mechanically works.
>
> And what? There weren’t many good shooters? What. CoD was literally on the rise, Gears of War existed, as did Battlefield. That’s completely false. Halo 3 alone stood against and above CoD for its entire lifespan (Until 2009/10) and had many competitors enter the frame, but there’s a reason people stuck with Halo despite the viable competition available to the consumer. And it’s not false that Halo taking on common gameplay elements to go with the trends ended up resulting in its loss in popularity, and overall identity.

I was just playing devil`s advocate with the jump height comment. Maybe clamber should be taken out, I personally dont care if any spartan ability is taken out except thrust. Thrust needs to stay. I truly dont care if H5 sprint is removed for H6 either because I will still scrape kids all day regardless of what they complain about next. My issue is that it is not killing the game, other people like it, and if anything it has helped increase the minuscule skill gap that Halo 4 left us with since the sprint was broken in that game. My argument here is that it helps increase the skill gap. Denying that is utterly ridiculous. Having to make a decision based on a situation is what makes this game, adding more decisions and “gimmicky” abilities increases the possible outcomes of a battle exponentially, literally. Learning to adapt to those “gimmicks” is what puts a person to the higher end of the skill gap. Just like how you say
“When you jumped or strafed in earlier Halos, you didn’t have your reticle back up in “1/10th” a second, you always had it up, consistently. Saying you can do “x” action doesn’t prove how you have more control, it just proves you can do more gimmicky things.”
That is quite literally the definition of learning a skill. If I choose not to go for the 3rd shot in order to make you miss 2 shots at the chance I miss my thrusting shot, there is a trade off. Learning it becomes a useful skill, screwing it up ensures my death. Since you consider that a gimmick, why dont we just remove jump and play octagon all day? That sounds like something you would be more interested in.

Also I agree, ground pound does take skill. But it is a skill, not a playstyle. Kind of like thrust shotting. Useful skill, not a playstyle, but part of my playstyle. Those are merely “weapons” in a players personal arsenal of “gimmicks”.
Also one of these “gimmicks” is the spartan charge. Im not very fond of it but it is a trick people use ON PURPOSE. Its not even close to a reactionary attack. Most people who sprint do so with an AR, and looking for people to charge. That is how CQC players operate. They get in your face quickly to take you out of your comfort zone. At higher level is it less effective? Absolutely, BECAUSE OF THE SKILL GAP IT HAS CREATED.
-MIC DROP-

Also as I JUST said, at the time it was basically COD and Halo running the FPS game with BF coming up in popularity. GOW is a 3rd person shooter so that is irrelevant. That is why it had a much more populated community. Higher quality game than COD + less market competition = higher player base. And those “arbitrary” numbers in my arguments are nontheless true. Halo has always been about outsmarting the enemy at the higher levels. The most accurate way I could convey that to you was with a percentage based on my experience and many others will agree.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 6:43am

> 2533274795123910;12035:
> > 2533274838217981;12033:
> > > 2533274795123910;12030:
> > > > 2533274838217981;12025:
> > > > > 2533274795123910;12023:
> > > > > > 2533274838217981;12020:
> > > > > > > 2533274886529017;12019:
> > > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No
> > > > >
> > > > > Any ability that:
> > > > > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > > > > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > > > > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > > > > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance:
> > > > > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > > > > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> > > > >
> > > > > Clamber
> > > > > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.
> >
> >
> > Given the context of my paragraph beforehand, I thought you were making that comparison. In that case i`m sorry.

Now you are correct that a hydra closes a skill gap and I agree. But the reason I say they cant be compared is because the hydra is not what I would consider to be a game mechanic. It is more of a weapon ability. I consider anything that everyone starts out with the ability to do as a game mechanic. The basic building blocks of the game.

Also I do hate spartan charge because it rewards people for over sprinting. Is it annoying? YES. Does it need to be removed? I dont think so. I think if they nerfed the knockback and stun quite a bit then it would still be useful, canon, and easily reversed. I also hate auto-lock weapons, even the plasma pistol. But I still use them because if I dont, the other team will. I have adapted and I know how to use them, but that doesnt mean I like them whatsoever. Its one of the parts of halo I have never liked.

Now, yes quite a bit of skill goes in to deciding when and when not to sprint. Decision making has always been the biggest skill determination in halo. I have known people who can perfect kill anything that moves, but couldnt get a 50 in H2, H3, or even past diamond 4 in H5. I am not the best shot out there, and even on my bad days where I cant aim for crap I still usually do pretty well. The skill gap is definitely created by one`s ability to adapt and make smart plays.
>
>
> And again, I am not talking about the Hydra and its projectile lock on. I am talking about a mechanic allowing players to lock on to targets using any gun, in layman terms, auto-aim. Not aim assists, not bullet magnetism, not seeking projectiles. An implemented auto-aim mechanic that automatically aims at the locked target for the player. An aim-bot base mechanic given to every single player upon spawn usable with every weapon, melee and grenades, usable for a short period of time.
> Section 8: Predjudice
> Iirc, GTA 4.
>
> So you’ve adapted to things despite disliking them but find no issue in telling others who dislike sprint they’ve failed to adapt?
>
> This is how I see skill and skill gap:
>
> Skill gap, is what I’d like to explain as the difference between what an experienced user who knows the program can do with it, vs the expert user, who has reached the “usability ceiling”, or is close to it. The usability ceiling being the point where you can get no more “effect” out of the program despite your skill.
>
> I know eveeything about MS paint, but I can’t draw a photorealistic car in it. Others can.
> Put in a wireframe model of a car that I can apply to the paper and the color, and I’m jumping far ahead in my ability in drawing a photorealistic car, while the expert user only saves time.
>
> Reduction in skill gap is moving users closer to each other in terms of what’s possible to do with the given assets in an efficient manner.
>
> If we then want to use sprint:
> Generally easier to escape, it is easier for an escapee to disengange an encounter due to the assailant not being able to keep up and deal damage at the same time, as opposed to non-sprint.
>
> The escapee’s ability to disengage is increased towards an “expert’s” ability to disengage.
>
> Making a decision however is relative skill between players. While the game does present you with a series of choices, it’s not the abilities / mechanics themselves that in terms of “skill to use efficiently” benefit from those choices, it is if you make a mistake or not, choosing the right option compared to your opponent., based on what you know.
>
> Sprint, or any ability, isn’t more skillful to use, doesn’t add to the skill gap, becsuse they present the options “use or don’t use”.
>
> Perhaps the easiest way to explain how I see it is:
> A mechanic present you with options, but that doesn’t add to the skill gap of the game itself, only to the relative skill of the players present.
> How an ability affects a game in terms of usability is different than the skill used in making the choices based on the ability.
>
> /How I see it, explained in a somewhat to me satisfactory way.
>
> If we’re going to share stories I feel the choice of using / not using sprint is second nature, not something I contemplate every turn, so to me the decision to use or not use doesn’t add skill.

At higher levels when 1v1s are less common, sprinting will inevitably be a person`s downfall when used incorrectly. I used sprint to overextend to save a flag cap that was going in anyways? Guess what, I blocked the wrong spawn by doing so and now the enemy team is spawning middle and ready for a double cap. I decided to sprint to a position instead of looking around the map and seeing who of my teammates is in a battle first? My teammate then gets possibly out gunned while the other team moves toawrds me with greater numbers. It most certainly is something that people need to learn to use, and that is why it increases the skill gap.

“So you’ve adapted to things despite disliking them but find no issue in telling others who dislike sprint they’ve failed to adapt?”
Yes exactly. Because the things I dislike actually remove the skill gap more than not. There is no problem with H5`s sprint. Reach and H4? Sure, but H5 sprint actually increases the skill gap, which is why I am defending it.

NOTORI3TY · October 19, 2016, 6:51am

I honestly don’t mind if sprint stays in or out of the game. I enjoyed the halo 5 but there mechanics and maps definitely need to be reworked even though it’s satisfying to run up on somebody on the back and Spartan charge(not the only ability that needs work) a kill, it feels way to easy to get a kill, I’m -Yoink- at halo 3 I find it hard to go on a 1v1 and come out victorious but I still enjoyed the game for the fact that it was challenging and I knew that If I died i was outplayed purely on skill, it was all fair play since the mechanics were well thought out, unlike in halo 5 just because some guy sprinted from the corner and charged me and then followed up with a headshot for the kill. the fact that the sprint easily enables Spartan charge so quickly, ruins any steady pace the franchise had. I’m not saying take off sprint I could honesty careless if it was enabled/disabled but the mechanics for it need to work. They need to keep the game “pace steady”. I feel like the best solution they could do for the game is make sprint limited like they did in reach where you had a certain amount of sprint and you were some what able to toggle it on or off, while implementing the mechanic from halo 5 that if you get shot you instantly come back to a walking pace(to counter any people that just run in with shotys or suicide bombers). That way the vets can still play in a old fashioned steady pace game while the new players can still enjoy getting from point a to point b quicker. This could also work for warzone to giving the vehicles in warzone for of a reason and importance to the game. It can also still fit with the lore that they give for the new generation of Spartans. This is just my idea though of how they could fix it I’ll love to know what you guys think of this.

Exuberant_Umbra · October 19, 2016, 6:57am

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> My argument here is that it helps increase the skill gap. Denying that is utterly ridiculous. Having to make a decision based on a situation is what makes this game, adding more decisions and “gimmicky” abilities increases the possible outcomes of a battle exponentially, literally. Learning to adapt to those “gimmicks” is what puts a person to the higher end of the skill gap.

It doesn’t? When you have so many different possible outcomes and scenarios that could happen, that leads to unpredictability which lessens the skillgap. It isn’t possible to reliably predict anything about your enemies, be it their movement, or fighting style because they can do so much that you can’t properly prep for. It increases the amount of possible outcomes, which is exactly the issue, because you can’t accurately respond until they happen. “Adapting” is a flawed and moot point where there’s so much to adapt to that you legitimately can’t, and a lot of that battle’s left up to chance on your end.

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> Also I agree, ground pound does take skill. But it is a skill, not a playstyle. Kind of like thrust shotting. Useful skill, not a playstyle, but part of my playstyle. Those are merely “weapons” in a players personal arsenal of “gimmicks”.
>
> Also one of these “gimmicks” is the spartan charge. Im not very fond of it but it is a trick people use ON PURPOSE. Its not even close to a reactionary attack. Most people who sprint do so with an AR, and looking for people to charge. That is how CQC players operate. They get in your face quickly to take you out of your comfort zone. At higher level is it less effective? Absolutely, BECAUSE OF THE SKILL GAP IT HAS CREATED.
>
> -MIC DROP-

You’re not explaining how it’s not a playstyle. You’re just making moot comparisons and saying “nope”. You didn’t counter my giant paragraph at all and avoided the point of it. Try again.

But to the next point, you have no understanding of how a skillgap is created. As in, legitimately. You know what’s less effective in higher levels? The Magnum. The most skilltaking weapon in the game. People know how to strafe, weave, and dodge, on top of knowing how to use easier weapons like the Storm Rifle, AR, BR, or DMR. Just because it’s harder to use in higher levels doesn’t mean there’s a skillgap that’s automatically created. And you realize people sprint with an AR because it’s not only an easy as heck weapon to use in CQC, but because if the chance to Spartan Charge another user comes along, you literally get a free kill with your AR compared to a Magnum. They don’t look for people to charge, they just know if they DO charge, they get a free kill out of it compared to if they were holding a Sniper Rifle, or precision weapon.

> 2533274838217981;12010:
> Also as I JUST said, at the time it was basically COD and Halo running the FPS game with BF coming up in popularity. GOW is a 3rd person shooter so that is irrelevant. That is why it had a much more populated community. Higher quality game than COD + market less competition = higher player base. And those “arbitrary” numbers in my arguments are nontheless true. Halo has always been about outsmarting the enemy at the higher levels. The most accurate way I could convey that to you was with a percentage based on my experience and many others will agree.

It’s not irrelevant. You know games compete with more than just their own genre, right? And again, arbitrary numbers mean nothing without evidence. Saying they’re “nonetheless true” doesn’t make it true. Just because you and others agree on a percentage, doesn’t make that percentage accurate, because there’s literally no way to measure that in a manner that provides a percentile value. Again, stop that.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 7:17am

> 2533274886529017;12039:
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > My argument here is that it helps increase the skill gap. Denying that is utterly ridiculous. Having to make a decision based on a situation is what makes this game, adding more decisions and “gimmicky” abilities increases the possible outcomes of a battle exponentially, literally. Learning to adapt to those “gimmicks” is what puts a person to the higher end of the skill gap.
>
>
> It doesn’t? When you have so many different possible outcomes and scenarios that could happen, that leads to unpredictability which lessens the skillgap. It isn’t possible to reliably predict anything about your enemies, be it their movement, or fighting style because they can do so much that you can’t properly prep for. It increases the amount of possible outcomes, which is exactly the issue, because you can’t accurately respond until they happen. “Adapting” is a flawed and moot point where there’s so much to adapt to that you legitimately can’t, and a lot of that battle’s left up to chance on your end.
>
>
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > Also I agree, ground pound does take skill. But it is a skill, not a playstyle. Kind of like thrust shotting. Useful skill, not a playstyle, but part of my playstyle. Those are merely “weapons” in a players personal arsenal of “gimmicks”.
> >
> > Also one of these “gimmicks” is the spartan charge. Im not very fond of it but it is a trick people use ON PURPOSE. Its not even close to a reactionary attack. Most people who sprint do so with an AR, and looking for people to charge. That is how CQC players operate. They get in your face quickly to take you out of your comfort zone. At higher level is it less effective? Absolutely, BECAUSE OF THE SKILL GAP IT HAS CREATED.
> >
> > -MIC DROP-
>
>
> You’re not explaining how it’s not a playstyle. You’re just making moot comparisons and saying “nope”. You didn’t counter my giant paragraph at all and avoided the point of it. Try again.
> But to the next point, you have no understanding of how a skillgap is created. As in, legitimately. You know what’s less effective in higher levels? The Magnum. The most skilltaking weapon in the game. People know how to strafe, weave, and dodge, on top of knowing how to use easier weapons like the Storm Rifle, AR, BR, or DMR. Just because it’s harder to use in higher levels doesn’t mean there’s a skillgap that’s automatically created. And you realize people sprint with an AR because it’s not only an easy as heck weapon to use in CQC, but because if the chance to Spartan Charge another user comes along, you literally get a free kill with your AR compared to a Magnum. They don’t look for people to charge, they just know if they DO charge, they get a free kill out of it compared to if they were holding a Sniper Rifle, or precision weapon.
>
>
> > 2533274838217981;12010:
> >
>
>
> It’s not irrelevant. You know games compete with more than just their own genre, right? And again, arbitrary numbers mean nothing without evidence. Saying they’re “nonetheless true” doesn’t make it true. Just because you and others agree on a percentage, doesn’t make that percentage accurate, because there’s literally no way to measure that in a manner that provides a percentile value. Again, stop that.

Ok this is getting quite annoying. First of all, there is a huge difference between things like sprint affecting gameplay and the BS unpredictable reqs and such in warzone. Even in WZ where there are TONS more different things that could happen, the better team STILL generally wins. So im sure having sprint is not going to make a 4v4 with standard map weapons “unpredictable” Because I predict the enemy all day. I predict the enemy correctly the majority of the time even if I still end up dying. Acting like its “too much to deal with” is ridiculous. I can basically look at my watch and call out to you where people are going to be based on a situation, and that comes with experience. So does using sprint efficiently. Sprint adds to the skill gap for H5. Not the other games. This “sprint is killing halo” BS is all in your head. I use to think the same thing, once you start paying more attention to how the game is being played by others, you will see the truth that sprint is not the problem in H5.

Ground pound is NOT a playstyle. A playstyle is a SET of strengths/preferences in a game which dictates how their gameplay comes together. I am a support player. My skills are cross map shooting, predicting/blocking spawns, thrust shooting and using parts of the map in my strafe. My buddy Jamie is a CQC guy. He uses the sword like no one else I have ever seen. He sprints, he is good with melee and short distance weapons, and he uses ground pound quite a bit. GP is PART of his playstyle, not his playstyle. I disregarded your entire paragraph because you obviously ignored my previous on that told you the exact thing I just had to repeat. It is a skill, not a playstyle. It is PART of someone`s playstyle if they choose to use it. A sprinting playstyle is so common I dont understand how you are not grasping this. In COD and even in Reach and such there were dedicated sprinting classes for those who choose a sprinting playstyle. Im going to leave it at that.

And ok, I wont use the scary numbers anymore. I will just say that anyone who has played this game consistently will agree that Halo is about smart plays and experience more than shooting by a longshot.

Precision · October 19, 2016, 7:19am

> 2533275001818694;12038:
> I honestly don’t mind if sprint stays in or out of the game. I enjoyed the halo 5 but there mechanics and maps definitely need to be reworked even though it’s satisfying to run up on somebody on the back and Spartan charge(not the only ability that needs work) a kill, it feels way to easy to get a kill, I’m -Yoink- at halo 3 I find it hard to go on a 1v1 and come out victorious but I still enjoyed the game for the fact that it was challenging and I knew that If I died i was outplayed purely on skill, it was all fair play since the mechanics were well thought out, unlike in halo 5 just because some guy sprinted from the corner and charged me and then followed up with a headshot for the kill. the fact that the sprint easily enables Spartan charge so quickly, ruins any steady pace the franchise had. I’m not saying take off sprint I could honesty careless if it was enabled/disabled but the mechanics for it need to work. They need to keep the game “pace steady”. I feel like the best solution they could do for the game is make sprint limited like they did in reach where you had a certain amount of sprint and you were some what able to toggle it on or off, while implementing the mechanic from halo 5 that if you get shot you instantly come back to a walking pace(to counter any people that just run in with shotys or suicide bombers). That way the vets can still play in a old fashioned steady pace game while the new players can still enjoy getting from point a to point b quicker. This could also work for warzone to giving the vehicles in warzone for of a reason and importance to the game. It can also still fit with the lore that they give for the new generation of Spartans. This is just my idea though of how they could fix it I’ll love to know what you guys think of this.

I agree with you. Maybe a limited sprint could help ease the tension between both sides. Or a slightly faster base speed as well. I think nerfing spartan charge would be the biggest thing to fix first though.

Naqser · October 19, 2016, 7:23am

> 2533274838217981;12037:
> > 2533274795123910;12035:
> > > 2533274838217981;12033:
> > > > 2533274795123910;12030:
> > > > > 2533274838217981;12025:
> > > > > > 2533274795123910;12023:
> > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12020:
> > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;12019:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any ability that:
> > > > > > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > > > > > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > > > > > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > > > > > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For instance:
> > > > > > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > > > > > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clamber
> > > > > > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.
>
>
> At higher levels when 1v1s are less common, sprinting will inevitably be a person`s downfall when used incorrectly. I used sprint to overextend to save a flag cap that was going in anyways? Guess what, I blocked the wrong spawn by doing so and now the enemy team is spawning middle and ready for a double cap. I decided to sprint to a position instead of looking around the map and seeing who of my teammates is in a battle first? My teammate then gets possibly out gunned while the other team moves toawrds me with greater numbers. It most certainly is something that people need to learn to use, and that is why it increases the skill gap.

“So you’ve adapted to things despite disliking them but find no issue in telling others who dislike sprint they’ve failed to adapt?”
Yes exactly. Because the things I dislike actually remove the skill gap more than not. There is no problem with H5`s sprint. Reach and H4? Sure, but H5 sprint actually increases the skill gap, which is why I am defending it.

Anecdote with nothing about sprint which hadn’t been doable with BMS only.

What does adaption have to do with skill gap?
How can one dislike and adapt to something that according to you decrease the skill gap, but dislike and because of that opinion, not adapt to something that according to you increase the skill gap?
You are aware of what adaption means right?

Just in case, here’s one appropriate definition:
to adjust oneself to different conditions, environment, etc.

Zero things to do with an individual’s opinion regarding the new conditions, environment and so forth.
Zero things to do with how the new conditions, environment etc affect anything.

So now mechanics can decrease the skill gap, despite you saying that “Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap.”. What?

Precision · October 19, 2016, 7:32am

> 2533274795123910;12042:
> > 2533274838217981;12037:
> > > 2533274795123910;12035:
> > > > 2533274838217981;12033:
> > > > > 2533274795123910;12030:
> > > > > > 2533274838217981;12025:
> > > > > > > 2533274795123910;12023:
> > > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12020:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;12019:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274838217981;12010:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You must not fully understand what I mean by “sprinters”. Everyone sprints in halo 5 because of map movement capability, but some people use sprint as their playstyle. The maps are the main problem because instead of making maps that allow sprinting, they have made them to give it an advantage. That is the problem. Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap, removing it does not make the game any harder whatsoever. People who are going to challenge too much or push too far always will, whether sprint is in the game or not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any ability that:
> > > > > > > -Benefits a lower skilled player more than a higher skilled player
> > > > > > > -Allows lower skilled players to perform actions in a similar manner to higher skilled players
> > > > > > > -Removes viable options or nullifies actions i.e decreases depth
> > > > > > > Decrease the skill gap by bringing the players closer to each other.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For instance:
> > > > > > > An Auto Lock on system for aiming.
> > > > > > > A lower skilled player who can’t maintain a good aim benefits from this far more than a higher skilled player who can maintain a good aim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clamber
> > > > > > > Allows lower skilled players who can’t routinely manage jumps, a second chance of succeeding the jump, more than a higher skilled player who routinely is successful at jumps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, which is why I said weapons like the hydra were terrible ideas. Comparing an auto-lock on weapon to the ability to sprint as an advantage is stupid. Its apples and oranges my friend. Sprint also creates the opportunity for a lot of new jumps that take a large amount of skill to do that newcomers cannot execute. It gets the same results like I have said. The skill gap most definitely increases with 2 movement speeds and a players ability to realize when to use them or not. Kind of like how people need to learn when to challenge or not. THAT is a comparable instance.
> >
> >
> > At higher levels when 1v1s are less common, sprinting will inevitably be a person`s downfall when used incorrectly. I used sprint to overextend to save a flag cap that was going in anyways? Guess what, I blocked the wrong spawn by doing so and now the enemy team is spawning middle and ready for a double cap. I decided to sprint to a position instead of looking around the map and seeing who of my teammates is in a battle first? My teammate then gets possibly out gunned while the other team moves toawrds me with greater numbers. It most certainly is something that people need to learn to use, and that is why it increases the skill gap.

“So you’ve adapted to things despite disliking them but find no issue in telling others who dislike sprint they’ve failed to adapt?”
Yes exactly. Because the things I dislike actually remove the skill gap more than not. There is no problem with H5`s sprint. Reach and H4? Sure, but H5 sprint actually increases the skill gap, which is why I am defending it.
>
>
> Anecdote with nothing about sprint which hadn’t been doable with BMS only.
>
> What does adaption have to do with skill gap?
> How can one dislike and adapt to something that according to you decrease the skill gap, but dislike and because of that opinion, not adapt to something that according to you increase the skill gap?
> You are aware of what adaption means right?
>
> Just in case, here’s one appropriate definition:
> to adjust oneself to different conditions, environment, etc.
>
> Zero things to do with an individual’s opinion regarding the new conditions, environment and so forth.
> Zero things to do with how the new conditions, environment etc affect anything.
>
> So now mechanics can decrease the skill gap, despite you saying that “Also, any kind of added mechanic will increase the skill gap.”. What?

Stop nitpicking. You know what I mean. Any kind of REASONABLE mechanic added to halo (like the ones we have) will increase the skill gap because it increases the number of possibilities during engagements.

And yes. Adaptation means to adjust, not love. It is possible to learn something without liking it. I am good at math but I -Yoinking!- hate it. Does that mean I think no one should learn math? No. That is the argument you are making. Stop taking up for your friends and actually use some logic. Adaptation is directly related to skill gap. If I never learned how to use sprint effectively, or use the plasma pistol, I would be behind the power curve and closer to the bottom of the skill gap.

Even at the higher levels of play, sprint creates a skill gap. E6 lost to CLG quite a few times last season in the pro league. Both teams agreed that E6 was sprinting way too much, and they paid dearly for those play calls.