The sprint discussion thread

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> > Bungie added sprint into the game, 343 kept it in the game, and therefore it falls to people making convincing arguments as to why sprint should be removed. Ignoring obvious red herrings like H3 population and sales (anything that can’t be definitively linked with sprint), it seems that a few key arguments remain. Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> >
> > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
>
>
> Ah, ah, ah. While cat and mouse “existed” in earlier Halos, it was a much rarer occurrance and at that, the player never put their weapon down when running and chasing. It was a constantly engaging action, in which the “cat” had every option in their favor, since they had their opponent on the run, could chase with their weapon up, and their opponent couldn’t move faster than they could. It didn’t stop combat or slow the game’s pace down and if the person actually escaped, they did it through proper juking or map movement. In earlier Halos, you never had to contextually put your weapon down to perform a certain action or ability. And the “larger maps” weren’t designed in a way that elongated movement lanes and created dead zones due to a movement speed above your base movement speed. Large maps in older Halos were much more compact and less stretchy.
>
> Now, in newer Halos with sprint, you have maps that need to be elongated in an artificial manner to justify sprint’s inclusion. This results in improperly longer lanes such as those on Truth as the best example. The best way to see this in general outside of Truth is just to solely walk around maps with Halo 5’s base movement speed. You can see how long lanes are compared to prior Halos. On top of that, sprint forces you to put your weapon down, taking control from you, and stopping combat from happening consistently. Something not present in older games. Finally, cat and mouse is a very big issue in newer Halos, compared to old. In older Halos, your best bet was to strongside out of a scenario IF you could. Even if you did, your opponent had full control, could follow you at your movement speed, and always had their weapon up. Now, when you run, you run faster than them, and you put your weapon down, as said before. If your opponent were to chase, they’d run at the same movement speed as you, but couldn’t attack, meaning you stop combat from two people, slowing the pace WAY down, and the person who’s running gets rewarded because they’re getting themselves out of, and avoiding a scenario they should’ve died in, which is amplified if they run to their teammates and entirely escape, which is common. This slows pacing, makes the game less punishing, and rewards the wrong people.
>
> All of these problems are entirely related to sprint.

Let’s break this down.

First, cat and mouse gameplay. Through my own experience with the series, I’ve some across two distinctly seperate ways to approach a situation (in this case, you are the cat). In pro leagues and highly team oriented play, I’ve seen people put shots in on an enemy whenever they see them, regardless of map position, enemy position, etc. In general , casual gameplay (I’m not pro but I’m not bad by any means, so just standard casual gameplay) people prefer to wait until they can put 3-4 shots on someone before engaging. When playing as a random, giving map position away is generally not favorable, because you are mostly unaware of your teammates or if the enemy team is communicating or not. No one wants to be stuck in a 2v1. All of this leads to cat and mouse gameplay. Sprint does nothing to change any of these scenarios, because of the scaling on maps. As anti-sprinters always say, maps are scaled for sprint. Time taken to move from cover A to cover B in Halo 3 is time taken to sprint from cover A to cover B in Halo 5. So sprint doesn’t help in terms of general movement. Which leads to the chase. Anyone chasing for out of position kills is making a large mistake. Unless pro teams are playing the game wrong, most teams prefer to keep a tactical position (higher ground, power weapon spawn) and put shots in to keep an enemy out of the fight rather than give up position for a kill.

Here’s the thing. First maps are elongated for sprint, but then maps allow for escapes too easily. Seems to me like most of the time, the person was in a poor position to pick up that kill in the first place, or they are chasing when they shouldn’t. Both scenarios have played out across all the games, and the elongation you speak of combined wit abilities like thruster and ground pound should allow you to pick off a weak player, sprinting down an elongated piece of the map, without sacrificing position. But only if you were in the optimal combat position to begin with.

All of this leads to map elongation. Which is just scaled sprint maps. The elongation itself isn’t bad, it’s a physical map property. Most of the issues I find people arguing about is how the elongation creates so many dead zones. I went back and looked at some of the Halo 3/Halo 4 heatmaps. Seems to me they line up fairly well with Halo 5 heatmaps. When anti-sprinters argue about dead zones, they make it seem like Halo 3 had fights happening in all locations and Halo 5 has it focused to 2-3 spots. But generally, the heatmaps show that Halo has always had an outside/middle dominated heatmap, sort of a circle with a dot in the middle. The space between that was mainly used for traversal, which still seems to be true. So what exactly is it about the Halo 5 dead zones that make them so different to Halo 3 dead zones?

Putting your gun down to sprint is just another tactical option to me, something Halo is full of. Deciding to use a vehicle, equipment in Halo 3, even choosing when to scope with a sniper or not were all decisions that could help or hinder you.
Sprint is the same. Yes, I’m not moving around maps faster relative to other Halo games. But I’m moving faster than BMS. I’m getting to a power weapon faster, rushing to help a teammate, etc. In other game modes, like SWAT, i’m never sprinting, gun always ready to fire. It’s about choices.

The final thing I want to talk about is optimal combat speed. A lot of reasons people argue against simply not sprinting is because they feel they aren’t moving around the map at the rate they were meant to. Yet, people mention pegging joysticks as alternate movement speeds, ignore the vertical aspect of Halo 5’s gameplay, and the fact that map positioning is in constant flux after first spawn. Moving around the map at optimal combat speed is just a pretty sound byte to buff the anti-sprint arguments, but ultimately it means very little.

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> >
> > Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> >
> > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
>
>
> Weapons down were “a problem before sprint”? What?
> Of course you can have issues like that without sprint, they are issues on their own due to problems in other aspects of the game design. However, and a big however, that doesn’t mean sprint isn’t more fuel on the fire.
>
> You do realise that the existense of sprint in Halo does not exempt anyone from your “burden of proof” phrase? Its existence is not proof of any claim other than “Sprint is in Halo”.

The current default position, of a 343 made Halo, is sprint is in the game. Theyve made that abundantly clear. Burden of proof being to swing the decision to a non-default position, that being Halo without sprint. That’s yours, and many others, to argue. Most of you claim Halo is better without sprint.

Understand? Or shall I break it down some more?

Edit:
Weapon down is just emblematic of the larger issue, that being removal of combat options. Which occurred when using equipment, dual wielding, choosing to wield a melee weapon, etc. Sprint has offensive uses.

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> > > What I find funny about this whole argument is that (SiN SHOOT2KILL) is heavily one sided on being a “PRO SPRINT DIEHARD”. He can’t even give a reason to how it improves Halo in general. All he says as a comeback is that it uses logic (which makes no sense due to the fact Halo is a fictional game) and that it helps you get to places faster, which we proved otherwise. This being the case, all he’s going to do is repeat himself using “big words” to make it seem more legit from what he’s saying. At least us, “ANTI SPRINT DIEHARDS” as you would call us, could give legitamate reasons to why and how sprint changes gameplay and mechanics on Halo and how it could be fixed by getting rid of sprint, and increasing BMS and FoV and other things which would help technically improve Halo by not putting your gun down at any time and using you’re strafe to out BR kids and get kills. Plus the maps wouldn’t be stretched anymore which could lead to smaller, better maps in general. And by the way, BtB maps didn’t need sprint back then because there were a plethera of vehicles and long range weapons to choose from once you spawned (Sandtrap, Valhalla, Rats Nest, etc.) Plus those maps, in my opinion, weren’t even that big on a 8v8. It’s not like Battlefield to where you need to Sprint for 2 minutes just to find one person (Not saying BF is bad because I enjoy the gameplay, but serving the game as an example of too big of a map). And if you bring up Warzone for sprint being needed, it is only that way because the map was built around sprint just like the rest of the maps on Halo 5. You need to come up with a way to try and persuade us on why Sprint is needed in future Halo titles, otherwise this conversation/debate doesn’t need to be discussed anymore and 343i could go ahead and remove Sprint already because I’m sick of this.
> >
> >
> > Bungie added sprint into the game, 343 kept it in the game, and therefore it falls to people making convincing arguments as to why sprint should be removed. Ignoring obvious red herrings like H3 population and sales (anything that can’t be definitively linked with sprint), it seems that a few key arguments remain. Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> >
> > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
>
>
> I’m tired, but here’s my stuff.
>
> Larger maps mostly mean maps have to be accommodated for sprint movement, which Midship and its successors shown. The engagement distances are longer, causing Truth to become a (mostly) mid-range map instead of being an extremely close-range. None of the current maps (that I played), except Molten, appear to be close quarters, or support at least a moderate amount of close quarter spaces. Lanes are favored in map design to accommodate for the larger play spaces as well, and reduce the number of line-of-sights. Distant firefights seem to be more favored now instead of the close range BR and AR battles of before. Whether this is fun or not depends on the player, but it’s apparent map sizes (and design) changed because of the inclusion of sprint. BTB maps haven’t seemed to change, but I wouldn’t know. They always seemed to work for me in each title. No complaints about sprint in there.
>
> I don’t remember putting a gun down (or removing my offensive abilities) before for anything except some vehicles, skulls, and objective mode items, so…
>
> Cat-and-mouse gameplay. Usually in the OG trilogy, cat-and-mouse gameplay occurred around the vertical transition areas of the map instead of the same level, like in post-Reach. Sometimes same level cat-and-mouse plays occurred, but not as often and they didn’t last as long as they do with sprint.

Sprint has offensive capabilities in this game, which limits other offensive capabilities. So did dual wielding, equipment, vehicular combat, etc.

[deleted]

I think we’re all done arguing with you SiN Shoot2kill. You provide “reasons” as to why your argument still remains valid but the truth and fact of the matter is that anything we say will not further this discussion at all nor will it change your mind.

The fact of the matter is as follows:

  1. You want sprint in a competitive multiplayer game
  2. The vast majority of the Halo community (people who were major players since halo CE, and have since quit thanks to Halo 5) hate sprint and asked for it to be removed after Halo 4. 343 decided to ignore than and put sprint in halo 5.
  3. With overwhelming evidence to support the fact that Sprint simply doesn’t work in Halo games, along with the lead designer on Halo 2 and 3 saying they didn’t include it because it didn’t promote good gameplay, there simply is no reason to keep it in.

You’re going to continue the fight though …so… on that note, I don’t think I really have anything to say further on the matter.

Okay if you dont like sprint go play reach or mcc on xbox one

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> > > > > What I find funny about this whole argument is that (SiN SHOOT2KILL) is heavily one sided on being a “PRO SPRINT DIEHARD”. He can’t even give a reason to how it improves Halo in general. All he says as a comeback is that it uses logic (which makes no sense due to the fact Halo is a fictional game) and that it helps you get to places faster, which we proved otherwise. This being the case, all he’s going to do is repeat himself using “big words” to make it seem more legit from what he’s saying. At least us, “ANTI SPRINT DIEHARDS” as you would call us, could give legitamate reasons to why and how sprint changes gameplay and mechanics on Halo and how it could be fixed by getting rid of sprint, and increasing BMS and FoV and other things which would help technically improve Halo by not putting your gun down at any time and using you’re strafe to out BR kids and get kills. Plus the maps wouldn’t be stretched anymore which could lead to smaller, better maps in general. And by the way, BtB maps didn’t need sprint back then because there were a plethera of vehicles and long range weapons to choose from once you spawned (Sandtrap, Valhalla, Rats Nest, etc.) Plus those maps, in my opinion, weren’t even that big on a 8v8. It’s not like Battlefield to where you need to Sprint for 2 minutes just to find one person (Not saying BF is bad because I enjoy the gameplay, but serving the game as an example of too big of a map). And if you bring up Warzone for sprint being needed, it is only that way because the map was built around sprint just like the rest of the maps on Halo 5. You need to come up with a way to try and persuade us on why Sprint is needed in future Halo titles, otherwise this conversation/debate doesn’t need to be discussed anymore and 343i could go ahead and remove Sprint already because I’m sick of this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bungie added sprint into the game, 343 kept it in the game, and therefore it falls to people making convincing arguments as to why sprint should be removed. Ignoring obvious red herrings like H3 population and sales (anything that can’t be definitively linked with sprint), it seems that a few key arguments remain. Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> > > >
> > > > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
> > >
> > >
> > > I’m tired, but here’s my stuff.
> > >
> > > Larger maps mostly mean maps have to be accommodated for sprint movement, which Midship and its successors shown. The engagement distances are longer, causing Truth to become a (mostly) mid-range map instead of being an extremely close-range. None of the current maps (that I played), except Molten, appear to be close quarters, or support at least a moderate amount of close quarter spaces. Lanes are favored in map design to accommodate for the larger play spaces as well, and reduce the number of line-of-sights. Distant firefights seem to be more favored now instead of the close range BR and AR battles of before. Whether this is fun or not depends on the player, but it’s apparent map sizes (and design) changed because of the inclusion of sprint. BTB maps haven’t seemed to change, but I wouldn’t know. They always seemed to work for me in each title. No complaints about sprint in there.
> > >
> > > I don’t remember putting a gun down (or removing my offensive abilities) before for anything except some vehicles, skulls, and objective mode items, so…
> > >
> > > Cat-and-mouse gameplay. Usually in the OG trilogy, cat-and-mouse gameplay occurred around the vertical transition areas of the map instead of the same level, like in post-Reach. Sometimes same level cat-and-mouse plays occurred, but not as often and they didn’t last as long as they do with sprint.
> >
> >
> > Sprint has offensive capabilities in this game, which limits other offensive capabilities. So did dual wielding, equipment, vehicular combat, etc.
>
>
> True, with the Spartan Abilities, but sprint itself prevents you from firing until you run at a normal pace, unlike Gears of War. Sprint doesn’t make you a harder target to hit, like in Gears’ Roadie Run, just a mild annoyance at mid to long range.
>
> Offensive tactics wouldn’t be the same as offensive capabilities imo.

Things like charge and slide are both tied to sprint. Slide is a tactic, charge is primarily combat based (I guess you could use it for movement but I wouldn’t understand why).

Equipment, dual wielding, even using a vehicle didn’t make you less of a target (getting into a vehicle made you a larger target). But they were all offensive uses that limited other aspects of offense. Sprint does the same. It has an inherent offensive capability that makes it objectively similar to decisions like dual wielding and using equipment.

Even Gears, wall bouncing and sprint are two options given to the player to decide what to use. There may benefits to either one, but both options are available.

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> Okay if you dont like sprint go play reach or mcc on xbox one

Things like this is the reason neither side will ever listen.

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> I think we’re all done arguing with you SiN SHOOT2KILL. You provide “reasons” as to why your argument still remains valid but the truth and fact of the matter is that anything we say will not further this discussion at all nor will it change your mind.
>
> The fact of the matter is as follows:
>
> 1. You want sprint in a competitive multiplayer game
> 2. The vast majority of the Halo community (people who were major players since halo CE, and have since quit thanks to Halo 5) hate sprint and asked for it to be removed after Halo 4. 343 decided to ignore than and put sprint in halo 5.
> 3. With overwhelming evidence to support the fact that Sprint simply doesn’t work in Halo games, along with the lead designer on Halo 2 and 3 saying they didn’t include it because it didn’t promote good gameplay, there simply is no reason to keep it in.
>
> You’re going to continue the fight though …so… on that note, I don’t think I really have anything to say further on the matter.

I’d love to know where you got the fact about point 2.

Just because someone couldn’t implement a mechanic in one game doesn’t exclude it from the entire series.

Former members of Bungie have also told 343 to move ahead with their vision of Halo. Do we really start to treat what Bungie says as word of God?

If the overwhelming evidence you mention is the arguments of this thread, however you feel they are represented, arguments against those still exist, and this argument is not over.

Quick note. Don’t say “the fact of the matter is as follows”, then proceed to list someone’s point of view and random subjective thoughts on sprint.

[deleted]

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> > > > > > > What I find funny about this whole argument is that (SiN SHOOT2KILL) is heavily one sided on being a “PRO SPRINT DIEHARD”. He can’t even give a reason to how it improves Halo in general. All he says as a comeback is that it uses logic (which makes no sense due to the fact Halo is a fictional game) and that it helps you get to places faster, which we proved otherwise. This being the case, all he’s going to do is repeat himself using “big words” to make it seem more legit from what he’s saying. At least us, “ANTI SPRINT DIEHARDS” as you would call us, could give legitamate reasons to why and how sprint changes gameplay and mechanics on Halo and how it could be fixed by getting rid of sprint, and increasing BMS and FoV and other things which would help technically improve Halo by not putting your gun down at any time and using you’re strafe to out BR kids and get kills. Plus the maps wouldn’t be stretched anymore which could lead to smaller, better maps in general. And by the way, BtB maps didn’t need sprint back then because there were a plethera of vehicles and long range weapons to choose from once you spawned (Sandtrap, Valhalla, Rats Nest, etc.) Plus those maps, in my opinion, weren’t even that big on a 8v8. It’s not like Battlefield to where you need to Sprint for 2 minutes just to find one person (Not saying BF is bad because I enjoy the gameplay, but serving the game as an example of too big of a map). And if you bring up Warzone for sprint being needed, it is only that way because the map was built around sprint just like the rest of the maps on Halo 5. You need to come up with a way to try and persuade us on why Sprint is needed in future Halo titles, otherwise this conversation/debate doesn’t need to be discussed anymore and 343i could go ahead and remove Sprint already because I’m sick of this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bungie added sprint into the game, 343 kept it in the game, and therefore it falls to people making convincing arguments as to why sprint should be removed. Ignoring obvious red herrings like H3 population and sales (anything that can’t be definitively linked with sprint), it seems that a few key arguments remain. Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m tired, but here’s my stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > Larger maps mostly mean maps have to be accommodated for sprint movement, which Midship and its successors shown. The engagement distances are longer, causing Truth to become a (mostly) mid-range map instead of being an extremely close-range. None of the current maps (that I played), except Molten, appear to be close quarters, or support at least a moderate amount of close quarter spaces. Lanes are favored in map design to accommodate for the larger play spaces as well, and reduce the number of line-of-sights. Distant firefights seem to be more favored now instead of the close range BR and AR battles of before. Whether this is fun or not depends on the player, but it’s apparent map sizes (and design) changed because of the inclusion of sprint. BTB maps haven’t seemed to change, but I wouldn’t know. They always seemed to work for me in each title. No complaints about sprint in there.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t remember putting a gun down (or removing my offensive abilities) before for anything except some vehicles, skulls, and objective mode items, so…
> > > > >
> > > > > Cat-and-mouse gameplay. Usually in the OG trilogy, cat-and-mouse gameplay occurred around the vertical transition areas of the map instead of the same level, like in post-Reach. Sometimes same level cat-and-mouse plays occurred, but not as often and they didn’t last as long as they do with sprint.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sprint has offensive capabilities in this game, which limits other offensive capabilities. So did dual wielding, equipment, vehicular combat, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > True, with the Spartan Abilities, but sprint itself prevents you from firing until you run at a normal pace, unlike Gears of War. Sprint doesn’t make you a harder target to hit, like in Gears’ Roadie Run, just a mild annoyance at mid to long range.
> > >
> > > Offensive tactics wouldn’t be the same as offensive capabilities imo.
>
>
> I’ll just number off each paragraph’s response.
>
> 1. Like I said, offensive capabilities aren’t the same as tactics. I don’t think slide is as bad as sprint since it’s essentially a smaller, but limited Roadie Run. You can slide without implementing sprint, but the designers are gonna have to pull some (possibly annoying) Max Payne -Yoink- to do it.
>
> 2. How about in Arena (4v4 and less) gameplay? I have no problem with sprint in bigger modes because of (some maps’) travel time, but in Arena it’s kinda eh. Sprint (in general, not just for Halo 5) saves the same purpose as vehicles, but you don’t take more damage to kill and you sacrifice all of your offensive capabilities except positioning. Not enough pros to outweigh that imo. Even with Covenant vehicles, I don’t think you can shoot while boosting. It’s unrelated, but what do you think about the map design changes because of sprint? It’s more lane-focus isntead of a “playground” focus. I think it makes the game more similar to Call of Duty and Counter-Strike imo. I dunno how to describe it, but you can see what I mean when playing Halo 2’s vehicle-less maps.
>
> 3. I honestly see no cons to wall bouncing in most maps as it (and countering it) is purely skill-based. Roadie Run has a purpose, since it allows wall-bouncing and fake-outs, and makes you a harder target to hit by making you smaller.

Ditto with the numbers.

  1. Charge is an offensive capability tied to sprint. Slide just serves as an alternate way to view sprint, as a ultity traversal tool. Sprint is tied to Spartan Charge, making it offensive.

  2. My opinion on sprint in Arena is that Halo 5 has the largest focus on team based gameplay that I’ve seen. I think sprint is a large part of this. Halo 5 is the most fun I’ve had with Halo multiplayer.
    I understand the map differences between H2 and H5, but I think the main issue is that the focus on ultra competitive maps has hindered the making of ultra-memorable maps. Less circular maps and more rounded rectangles. I dont necessairly find that as a bad thing, and the heatmaps show that combat essentially takes place in the same location.

  3. The con to wall bouncing is that it is simply controlled chaos. Makes it harder to keep track of players and can sometimes lead to death, but you are more aware of someone’s reaction to roadie running than wall bouncing. Gears if full of these nuances. Hard aiming instead of soft aiming/blindfire, drag aim, etc. Gears is full of options, and the best players use all of them.

> 2533274909445208;11935:
> What I find funny about this whole argument is that (SiN SHOOT2KILL) is heavily one sided on being a “PRO SPRINT DIEHARD”. He can’t even give a reason to how it improves Halo in general. All he says as a comeback is that it uses logic (which makes no sense due to the fact Halo is a fictional game) and that it helps you get to places faster, which we proved otherwise. This being the case, all he’s going to do is repeat himself using “big words” to make it seem more legit from what he’s saying. At least us, “ANTI SPRINT DIEHARDS” as you would call us, could give legitamate reasons to why and how sprint changes gameplay and mechanics on Halo and how it could be fixed by getting rid of sprint, and increasing BMS and FoV and other things which would help technically improve Halo by not putting your gun down at any time and using you’re strafe to out BR kids and get kills. Plus the maps wouldn’t be stretched anymore which could lead to smaller, better maps in general. And by the way, BtB maps didn’t need sprint back then because there were a plethera of vehicles and long range weapons to choose from once you spawned (Sandtrap, Valhalla, Rats Nest, etc.) Plus those maps, in my opinion, weren’t even that big on a 8v8. It’s not like Battlefield to where you need to Sprint for 2 minutes just to find one person (Not saying BF is bad because I enjoy the gameplay, but serving the game as an example of too big of a map). And if you bring up Warzone for sprint being needed, it is only that way because the map was built around sprint just like the rest of the maps on Halo 5. You need to come up with a way to try and persuade us on why Sprint is needed in future Halo titles, otherwise this conversation/debate doesn’t need to be discussed anymore and 343i could go ahead and remove Sprint already because I’m sick of this.

So im gunna disagree with you on the btb map of sand trap probably the most boring map to play. Not sure about a plethora of vechicles either, btb only become fun in h4 (the rest of of h4 was not so good). Dont get me wrong HCE blood glutch sidewinder H3 valhalla were good. But because those maps were big they could easily lack action.

And i have yet to hear any legitimate reasons why sprint changes gameplay apart from predictability and gun down. So for at least sprint feels faster, it doesnt matter if its an illusion or real.

I have been on this discussion for a whileb and some people have very good points one of which is increases the fov ive looked on youtube and this makes halo faster which im all for, i would say im pro sprint or anti sprint just pro faster bms or movement in general.

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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Those arguments being larger maps, having to put a gun down, and cat and mouse gameplay. The problem with these three arguments is that they have existed in games before sprint, and therefore, to 343i or anyone with any actual say in the franchise, these problems are not related to sprint.
> > >
> > > As many Waypointers love to say, the burden of proof falls to those making the claim. In the 343 era of Halo, sprint is in the game, meaning those who want it removed should be offering compelling reasons for its removal. So far, that hasn’t happened.
> >
> >
> > Weapons down were “a problem before sprint”? What?
> > Of course you can have issues like that without sprint, they are issues on their own due to problems in other aspects of the game design. However, and a big however, that doesn’t mean sprint isn’t more fuel on the fire.
> >
> > You do realise that the existense of sprint in Halo does not exempt anyone from your “burden of proof” phrase? Its existence is not proof of any claim other than “Sprint is in Halo”.
>
>
> The current default position, of a 343 made Halo, is sprint is in the game. Theyve made that abundantly clear. Burden of proof being to swing the decision to a non-default position, that being Halo without sprint. That’s yours, and many others, to argue. Most of you claim Halo is better without sprint.
>
> Understand? Or shall I break it down some more?
>
> Edit:
> Weapon down is just emblematic of the larger issue, that being removal of combat options. Which occurred when using equipment, dual wielding, choosing to wield a melee weapon, etc. Sprint has offensive uses.

So yes? Any pro-sprinter is exempt from the “burden of proof” despite what they claim, when they do and how they do it? Because Halo having sprint is proof enough of their claim.

Also like that there has been “no compelling” reason to remove it, because that’s entirely up to you to judge. Just like there never were any compelling reasons to remove any of the other present mechanics we have today, because their existence in the game is proof enough of them being good for the game. Dual wielding, Custom Loadouts, Bloom, Armor Abilities.

Let me get this straight, you’re putting short animations on asset usage and asset attributes (range) in the same category as a mechanical action?

So you say, yet you most likely will point towards an ability which only has sprint as a prerequisite of performing it, in which you go from sprinting, to the new action in which you are not sprinting, do not continue sprinting afterwards and which prerequisite could easily be removed / replaced. Or?

> 2533274848599184;11971:
> > 2533274932051506;11969:
> > Okay if you dont like sprint go play reach or mcc on xbox one
>
>
> Things like this is the reason neither side will ever listen.
>
>
> > 2549359074790154;11968:
> > I think we’re all done arguing with you SiN SHOOT2KILL. You provide “reasons” as to why your argument still remains valid but the truth and fact of the matter is that anything we say will not further this discussion at all nor will it change your mind.
> >
> > The fact of the matter is as follows:
> >
> > 1. You want sprint in a competitive multiplayer game
> > 2. The vast majority of the Halo community (people who were major players since halo CE, and have since quit thanks to Halo 5) hate sprint and asked for it to be removed after Halo 4. 343 decided to ignore than and put sprint in halo 5.
> > 3. With overwhelming evidence to support the fact that Sprint simply doesn’t work in Halo games, along with the lead designer on Halo 2 and 3 saying they didn’t include it because it didn’t promote good gameplay, there simply is no reason to keep it in.
> >
> > You’re going to continue the fight though …so… on that note, I don’t think I really have anything to say further on the matter.
>
>
> I’d love to know where you got the fact about point 2.
>
> Just because someone couldn’t implement a mechanic in one game doesn’t exclude it from the entire series.
>
> Former members of Bungie have also told 343 to move ahead with their vision of Halo. Do we really start to treat what Bungie says as word of God?
>
> If the overwhelming evidence you mention is the arguments of this thread, however you feel they are represented, arguments against those still exist, and this argument is not over.
>
> Quick note. Don’t say “the fact of the matter is as follows”, then proceed to list someone’s point of view and random subjective thoughts on sprint.

> The Fact of the matter is as follows

fair point

> I’d love to know where you got the fact about point 2.
>
> Just because someone couldn’t implement a mechanic in one game doesn’t exclude it from the entire series.

Fair enough but we’ve had 2 games now where a majority absolutely hate the mechanic. It hasn’t gotten any better.
I could list off a ton of youtubers and pro players that hate the mechanic as being a part of halo, but I really dont have the time nor the will to do the work for you. Finding pro sprint professional players is few and far between. Just surf youtube for an hour.
I believe this → http://i.imgur.com/mAz8UIa.png --speaks for itself.

> Do we really start to treat what Bungie says as word of God?

I’m not saying that we have to hail to all mighty Bungie, but the people who made Halo 2 and 3 multiplayer seem to have a very good understanding of what makes a mechanic work as they spent multiple months after E3 making specifically multiplayer work. Someone who has invested over 8 years worth of time into figuring out what mechanics make multiplayer work and what don’t, probably have a really good idea of what’s going on.

I had a conversation with Jamie Goresmear (lead designer on both Halo 2 and 3) here recently on Twitter: http://i.imgur.com/8DR9cS9.png
He doesn’t seem to echo the statement of other Bungie people.

Overwhelming evidence comes from the fact that the Halo community as a whole has died. MLG doesn’t include this as an official sport outside of the Halo Championships which are hosted by Microsoft. Halo 5 is #18 on the most played list and falling every day, and you rarely hear anyone talk about it outside of gaming social circles. To say that’s all Sprint’s fault would not be correct as it is just one of the major pillars that stands along other minor and major pillars that have made Halo 5 a failure. Many long time Halo Fan Streamers have pointed to Sprint being an incredibly contraversal topic and one that breaks gameplay mechanics.

Here, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6zDz5tMhw
He pretty much sums up most of the toipcs. A quick YouTube search though will echo the fact that the majority of the community hates sprint. I’m not sure where you think this majority “pro-sprint” crowd is but…

Risk/Reward is not a positive.

Halo is not a tactical game. In fact the entire game is built upon the idea of providing a superhuman power trip to the player and this is accomplished by limiting(or outright eliminating) risk/reward gameplay mechanics.Let’s look at Halo’s core mechanics here.

Rebounding health
When HCE launched FPS games did not use rebounding health/shields they used health and shield pick ups. Pick ups created a very risk/reward heavy mechanic. You often had to decide whether you where on the defensive looking for health or on the offensive searching for players. With rebounding health Halo big time lessened the risk/reward of health decisions. All you had to do was wait a few seconds and your shields were back.

Two Weapon Limit
Again, when HCE launched FPS didn’t have two weapon limits. They let you carry all kinds of weapons at once. These weapons were usually incredibly niche. Halo limited you to two and then gave you more utilitarian type weapons. This lessened the risk/reward nature of weapon choices.

Hotkey Nades
Instead of having to scroll through a list to grenades, switch to them, throw them and then switch back to a weapon you just needed to press one button in Halo. This lessened the risk/reward of using grenades.

Movement
Unlike most games you don’t bloom and lose accuracy for moving, strafing or jumping. This totally removed the risk/reward of picking between movement and combat.

Shooting
You don’t bloom when you’re not aiming down sights. You don’t bloom due to ROF. There are no alt functions on weapons. The entirety of shooting is designed around not having risk/reward.

These were the core pillars of Halo gameplay and they all strove to eliminate or lessen the importance of risk/reward gameplay. So…why does it make any sense to throw in one single mechanic that is entirely built around the concept of risk/reward? That mechanic would be actively working in the complete opposite direction of the rest of the mechanics in the game? Can someone explain to me how sprint being “tactical” is a good thing? How it providing risk/reward is a good thing?

PS duel wielding, AAs, bloom, perks, loudouts, fall damge and equipment all providing risk/reward and they were all removed from Halo.

I like sprint. I think we should keep it for both campaign and multiplayer. It makes it more fast paced and keeps you focused at all times. I can guarantee if Halo stays the exact same, people will complain it’s not evolving. With that being said however, too much change isn’t a good thing. This is just my opinion on this matter.

> 2535418851574306;11978:
> I can guarantee if Halo stays the exact same, people will complain it’s not evolving.

Agreed. We’ve had sprint for 10 years. It’s time for change.

> 2535439149692170;11979:
> > 2535418851574306;11978:
> > I can guarantee if Halo stays the exact same, people will complain it’s not evolving.
>
>
> Agreed. We’ve had sprint for 10 years. It’s time for change.

Exactly! So many people think were ‘becoming COD’, How exactly are we doing that? Do you see Spartans in WW2? Of course not lol so many games have sprint, we can’t dwell in the past and hang onto what once was. It’s time for change, it’s time to step up.

> 2625759425619671;11962:
> So recently @FightingChances asked me to provide examples as to how sprint has helped me in Halo.
>
>
>
>
> > How has sprint helped you and your friends win or lose? Just give me straight up response. Examples or whatever, not links to posts.
>
>
> Follow up from @FightingChances to clarify:
>
>
>
>
> > I don’t think you understood what I’m asking. How has it helped you means “Did you win because you used sprint to do something spectacular?”
>
>
> A few minutes ago I closed out such a game in a Doubles match (thanks to sprint) with under a minute to go when we were down 22-24.
>
> As time was ticking away towards an otherwise certain defeat I utilized sprint (along with 2 shots remaining in my sniper rifle) to help chase down and eliminate the enemy team.
>
> For the sake of brevity in the clip, I cut out the first kill that I got which made it 23-24 which is where this short 30 second clip picks up. If I didn’t have sprint to help me chase down and eliminate this camping enemy team they could have easily sat back and drained the time out in this match.
>
> Summary: Just watch how sprint helps: make this game feel so much closer and suspenseful, increase the tension in the situation, and lead to a much more exciting finish to the outcome of the game (Compared to if I was just walking).
>
> I went back through and found some additional “bonus clips” (below) that I’ve made in the past to demonstrate how sprint helps make each play happen and how sprint benefits gameplay in Halo. What better way to talk about how sprint helps in Halo than to just show you guys in some highlights!! So grab some popcorn, sit back on the couch, and enjoy!! :wink:
>
> Bonus clip #1: No matter how much you practice your 4-shot, you’ll never beat this one-shot
>
> Summary: I used sprint in order to quickly make an all-out dash to recover my fallen sniper rifle before it would have been either a) taken by somebody else or b) just disappeared on the despawn timer (Either case would have been much more likely than recovering this important power weapon if I would have had to have tried to walk back to retrieve my weapon without sprint. Plus- I probably would have needed to get into an engagement just to get it back). Instead I was able to run back, snag the sniper, and pop this enemy with a quick snap shot in order to help hang on to a narrow lead in this match.
>
> Bonus clip #2: Responding to the call
>
> Summary: At about 5:02 left in the game one of my teammates who was a long ways away from me called for help. Thanks to sprint I was able to get there quickly and respond to his call outs in order to deliver the play that sealed our victory in this match.
>
> Bonus clip #3: Assault on the Warthog
>
> Summary: I used sprint to dash into position in order to surprise the enemy team and take this Warthog down (with a little Ring Around The Rosie action going on). This came late in the game and helped us seal the victory in this BTB match.
>
> Bonus clip #4: Getting off to a hot start on Molten
>
> Summary: During an Arena match on Doubles I effectively utilized sprint to blitz the enemy spawn location at the onset of this match on Doubles, then proceed to made a dash for the sniper rifle which helped the team get off to a massive lead early during this match.
>
> Bonus clip #5: Get off my hill, bruh…
>
> Summary: Sprint enabled me to close down on this enemy and make this cool-looking assassination quickly in order to make the play happen before they even had a chance to react.
>
> Bonus clip #6: <em>Killionaire (plus one) with the Sniper Rifle</em>.
>
> Summary: Picked up this Nornfang 'Naire when playing Warzone on Skirmish at Darkstar. This shows that it’s more challenging and fun to try and hit enemies that are both walking and sprinting (As opposed to if they had just one constant BMS which would have made this play much less suspenseful)
>
> Bonus clip #7: <em>No-scope FTW on Doubles</em>
> You’ll have to forgive the hype (and language) in this clip. This was the match where I hit Onyx in Doubles last season so I was pretty excited for the win.
> Summary: I took advantage of the enemy’s incorrect usage of sprint when they charged me near the end of this game by sealing the deal with the one timer snipe. This is a good example of how sprint helps add another element of skill to the game and can be used both offensively and defensively.
>
> Bonus clip #8: Got yer back teammate!!
>
> Summary: Sprint enabled me to respond to my teammates call out quicker and more effectively during this play as I used it to help me get into position before dropping down on the enemy team with the double kill.
>
> Bonus clip #9: Beat that Knight with a stick…
>
> Summary: Sprint is useful when combined with the additional speed that the Gravity Hammer has to offer (as evident in this clip). In this particular play I was able to dash past all the other enemies with sprint in order to focus solely on taking out the Mythic boss to win the match.
>
> Bonus clip #10: Rapid succession
>
> Summary: Sprint helped me get into the perfect position in order to make these rapid head shots which helped the team push the enemy back early on during this game.
>
> Bonus clip #11: Two quick snapshots to the face
>
> Summary: Nothing too special about this play; however I posted it to demonstrate how sprint can help close the gap between enemies faster to build up more kill steaks (such as this double kill)
>
> Bonus clip #12: Is there NO ONE else?!
>
> Summary: While it’s not captured during this 30-second XBL highlight clip; sprint helped set this play up. I utilized sprint in order to dash past the AIs in Noctus and run straight into the core room where this snapshot overkill took place. My teammates were able to follow in after me and core the enemy team FTW right behind the hole that I opened up with this play.

Nearly all of this is independent of sprint. It’s based on map design and how movement plays into it. The same actions would be possible with more compact maps and/or faster BMS without sprint. Case and point, if you die, respawn and rush back to a power weapon with a smaller map or, say, sprint BMS the outcome is the same. This is the basis for the illusion argument. The difference is sprint alters additional aspects of gameplay.

The only exception is when your opponent was not expecting you to sprint when you did it. In this case you gain an edge either because you outmaneuvered your opponent or they were unable to anticipate your actions due to multiple movement speeds adding unpredictability. You might view this as beneficial to gameplay, just as you might view being able to do these actions as beneficial to begin with. Other players may not share those views.

> 2535418851574306;11980:
> > 2535439149692170;11979:
> > > 2535418851574306;11978:
> > > I can guarantee if Halo stays the exact same, people will complain it’s not evolving.
> >
> >
> > Agreed. We’ve had sprint for 10 years. It’s time for change.
>
>
> Exactly! So many people think were ‘becoming COD’, How exactly are we doing that? Do you see Spartans in WW2? Of course not lol so many games have sprint, we can’t dwell in the past and hang onto what once was. It’s time for change, it’s time to step up.

Yes. Sprint needs to go. It’s time for change. Glad we are in agreement.

> 2535439149692170;11982:
> > 2535418851574306;11980:
> > > 2535439149692170;11979:
> > > > 2535418851574306;11978:
> > > > I can guarantee if Halo stays the exact same, people will complain it’s not evolving.
> > >
> > >
> > > Agreed. We’ve had sprint for 10 years. It’s time for change.
> >
> >
> > Exactly! So many people think were ‘becoming COD’, How exactly are we doing that? Do you see Spartans in WW2? Of course not lol so many games have sprint, we can’t dwell in the past and hang onto what once was. It’s time for change, it’s time to step up.
>
>
> Yes. Sprint needs to go. It’s time for change. Glad we are in agreement.

Hahaha sneaky. Im all for sprint. #MakeHaloGreatAgain