I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
The last we heard from 343 on the topic they stated that sprint was a hotly debated mechanic during h5’s development that was ultimately kept because “people expected it in FPS games in 2015”.
Well, it’s not 2015 anymore. CS GO has dethroned COD as the world’s most played FPS. Overwatch is a sensation and Doom handedly topped H5 on metacritic.
> 2535439149692170;11464:
> I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
>
> The last we heard from 343 on the topic they stated that sprint was a hotly debated mechanic during h5’s development that was ultimately kept because “people expected it in FPS games in 2015”.
>
> Well, it’s not 2015 anymore. CS GO has dethroned COD as the world’s most played FPS. Overwatch is a sensation and Doom handedly topped H5 on metacritic.
> http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/doom
> http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/halo-5-guardians
Here’s the links
DOOMHalo 5 Guardians
Sprint needs to stay, a modern FPS can’t survive without it. Spartan charge and sliding can go. Keep the other abilities. That would make me happy.
> 2535466533436400;11466:
> Sprint needs to stay, a modern FPS can’t survive without it. Spartan charge and sliding can go. Keep the other abilities. That would make me happy.
And what’s your proof or reasoning for a sprint-less halo not being able to survive when the last sprint less game competently competed with the CoD franchise until the end of its life span (halo 3)?
> 2535466533436400;11466:
> Sprint needs to stay, a modern FPS can’t survive without it.
Two of the top three most played games this year do not have sprint.
> 2535466533436400;11466:
> Sprint needs to stay, a modern FPS can’t survive without it. Spartan charge and sliding can go. Keep the other abilities. That would make me happy.
CS: GO and Overwatch are both modern shooters without sprint. Do those two games ring a bell?
> 2535439149692170;11464:
> I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
Just because 343i isn’t jumping in here doesn’t mean that they are not listening.
> 2625759425619671;11470:
> > 2535439149692170;11464:
> > I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
>
>
> Just because 343i isn’t jumping in here doesn’t mean that they are not listening.
Ok?
> 2625759425619671;11470:
> > 2535439149692170;11464:
> > I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
>
>
> Just because 343i isn’t jumping in here doesn’t mean that they are not listening.
Listening is pointless if there is no communication between us and them on our ideal compromises, or there’s no action to be taken. Besides H3A, I don’t believe they’ll provide a no sprint playlist (let alone a good one) for halo’s future.
For convenience’s sake, Imma just write retorts next to what you say in the quotes, possibly bolded.
> 2625759425619671;11341:
> 2) “Deadspace,” and “stretched flooring,” appear to be the center of your arguments as to why you think maps are “stretched,” to accommodate sprint. I think that citing map dimensions would ring louder than your opinions about how the maps look and feel to you on this point.
>
> - They’re part of the argument, but there also comes the idea of increased pathing which you see in games like Halo 4, on maps like Solace, for example. It’s much more than just maps being outwardly bigger/wider, which you can see, it also comes down to how the very routes of the map need to be designed.
>
> 3) Players can still guess roughly how long it’ll take for their opponents to transition around the map… Having two BMS’ just shake up that formula a little bit. This leads to more unique encounters and better overall gameplay.
>
> - But WHY shake it up? Why make it more unpredictable? It wasn’t entirely predictable beforehand unless you knew the maps well. It only leads to more technically “unique” encounters, because you literally can’t predict enemy movement reliably with two movement speeds, which isn’t better or fun, just stressful. That isn’t good, because it nullifies knowing the map and its lanes.
>
> 4) Oh and you’re saying you actually read what I write? Not based off your replies to point #3 of this post.
>
> - You didn’t even try to counter my post here.
>
> 5) Disagree enemy prediction can and does happen in competitive games of Arena (because of many of the points that I cited in my previous reply on this point). Just watch HCS- how are pros able to consistently win games in Halo 5?? It’s not because they are incapable of predicting where their opponents are going to be.
>
> - It has nothing to do with prediction ability. When your pro settings have radar and things like grenade hitmarkers, the idea of prediction goes out the window. They’re able to win games off of more than just the concept of prediction, which isn’t even a factor, given the aforementioned points.
>
> 7) Maps are not designed solely to cater to sprint. Players can’t even shoot when they’re sprinting or recharge their shields so the risk/reward elements of choosing to use sprint in the first place neutralize this argument; along with the fact that multiple things are deliberated and tested during the development of new maps - not every single one of those deliberations during the creation of a new map come down to “Does this map work for sprint.”
>
> - They neutralize it? How so? You gave me bullet points, but no definitive evidence. How is there risk and reward to not being able to sprint shoot when the maps are so segmented and corner based that escape is easy since you can break line of sight with your opponent quickly? The maps are again, unarguably altered to cater to sprint. If you deny that, you’re wrong. Big examples are Truth, or Solace, or Haven. In development, when you’re basing a game around sprint, or no sprint, you actually need to go “does this map work for sprint”, figuratively, because that map needs to be enlarged to even justify having the ability. Simply denying those things doesn’t make them false.
>
> 8) Hollow numbers in this debate because a) you can’t even remotely prove that I’m a minority on this issue in the millions of gamers around world and b) the decline in overall popularity of Halo is attributed to a wide array of other factors. Trying to pin everything thing on sprint is misguided.
>
> - But I didn’t pin it all on sprint. I just know and acknowledge that it was one of the factors, hence the argument here. And if these are “hollow numbers”, then why are you so adamant on using your own numbers (friends list and the like) as if they’re valid? You know that’s an argumentative hole, right? If you’re going to say that I can’t prove you’re a minority, you can’t prove you’re somehow a majority. You can bring up your friends and the like, but I can just bring up the population gap between older Halos and now to shut that down.
>
> 9) Good, good! I’m proud of you!! You finally made an argument where you admitted it was based off of what you think. That said I respectfully disagree with sprint being the primary culprit of any perceived decline in Halo. Even if you think sprint is a big reason as to why Halo has declined (which would be more believable to me) I’d still have to point out that there’s no way to accurately measure that opinion.
>
> - Sure can look at Halo’s game population and player retention in the last six years, compared to what came beforehand and go by process of elimination. And past the condescension, I said that while I think sprint was a part, that was only because I also know a ton of other things also played a part, such as AAs, loadouts and SAs. That doesn’t make sprint’s effects any smaller, but it certainly had a role, given how it literally changed the game’s fundamentals.
>
> 10) I don’t agree that “challenging,” someone’s ability to even understand how the game works is a valid, respectful, or even acceptable method to counter points on this topic. We’re all fellow fans here and on an equal playing field. I believe that (most of us) just want what we feel is best for the next Halo game. That doesn’t mean that one side has evolved to a higher plane of existence surrounded by being overwhelming “right,” in all of our opinions about sprint.
>
> - You don’t have to agree, but it doesn’t make me wrong. I’ll entirely challenge your ability to grasp how the game works, because it’s exactly what this argument’s about at the very core. What you feel is best, and what is actually best, are two entirely different things. Like, this isn’t even a debate/argument. This is just people who don’t acknowledge or don’t know the downsides of sprint to a BMS, talking to people who do know and whether or not they want it. Has nothing to do with lacking respect or validity.
>
> 11) The result has been a unique experience- Halo offers sprint in a way quite unlike other games with sprint. The developers have taken steps towards mitigating “cat and mouse,” games that resulted from the ability to recharge energy shields while sprinting… And unlike in COD you cannot sprint/shoot which sprint/no shoot is actually more realistic anyway.
>
> - First off, I didn’t say sprint was the result of short term thinking specifically, although its inclusion which only served to homogenize it with its competitors offers no other explanation. 
How is Halo 5 somehow unique when it offers sprint exactly like its competitors bar tying shields to it? And did the developers efforts to mitigate sprint’s side effects work? No, not really, because every single issue with sprint is still present, despite the nerfs, something that’s evident in game. Like, you know that just saying X point but providing nothing more but a base statement isn’t evidence or proof, right? For example, Halo 4 offers loadouts in a way that’s entirely unique, unlike other games with loadouts. The developers have taken steps towards mitigating the “one weapon to rule them all” concept from other games like CoD while also balancing perks in a way that doesn’t outright effect fights, but only kick in afterwards. And unlike CoD, you can switch your loadout mid game, which is more realistic, given the Spartans are in a simulation. See? I didn’t provide much there past base statements, which turn out to be false in the case of the former point. Also, you can’t sprint/shoot in CoD.
> 2533274943854776;11462:
> > 2533274825830455;11379:
> > In this situation you posed, it’s not practically possible to predict to any degree of accuracy that amounts to more than random guessing. The ultimate reason for that is that you have no real preference to put the candy under either cup that I could know about. But that’s besides the point. Let’s consider a different situation: we’re playing chess, and the situation is not a stalemate. Without needing to give any more information about the state of the game I claim: there is no way for you to know which move I’m going to make next. But somehow chess is still considered one of the most predictable and skill based games in history.
> >
> > The problem with your argument is the assumption that I need to be able to know. But I claim, if I was always able to know, the game would be uninteresting because the end result of the game would be determined at the start of the game. Games where either of the players can know what the other will do next are incredibly boring. Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games. After all, I don’t need to know what you will do to win. I just need to 1) be able to weigh the likelihoods of different outcomes, and 2) be prepared for when I inevitably predict wrong.
> >
> > Let’s go back to your candy cup game for a moment. From a design perspective, there are two inherent flaws in this game that make it shallow: 1) the choice of cup is entirely irrelevant to you, and therefore I never have more than a 50% chance of winning, i.e., my choices amount to total guessing; 2) when I inevitably make the wrong choice, I have no way of rectifying my error. Most games that people play seriously don’t have these problems. For example, in Halo, players tend to prefer certain routes on maps, and they can’t help it. If you play with one player enough, you can’t help but learn their habits, and be able to predict their choices in a way that amounts to more than blind guessing. Even players who you don’t know tend to make their choices in somewhat predictable ways, because not all choices are equally favorable to them. On the other hand, in Halo I can often rectify my errors. Say I miss a shot because you make a strafe that throws me off. I can still step up my game, try to be more accurate, predict better, and move more unpredictably to still get the kill. It’s not game over for me if I make the wrong prediction.
> >
> > However, as I have said, player generated randomness is completely essential. In fact, it’s inevitable. Any game where players are allowed to make choices, you can never know what a player will do. You can predict what they might do, but you can never know for sure. However, player generated randomness is also absolutely essential for competitive gameplay. If we have a game where all choices for both players are trivial, i.e., completely obvious, it’s not a game at all. It’s just two people mindlessly executing a series of deterministic instructions. There is no skill in it beacuse neither of the players needs to think what the other player will do.
> >
> > You do, however, raise a point which I intentionally passed over which was not relevant to my point: the right amount of player generated randomness has a delicate balance. Obviously, as you already concluded, if we turn the game into total guessing, there’s no skill in it. On the other hand, as I already concluded, if we make all choices completely trivial, there’s no skill in it either. This means that there is some point, some amount of player generated randomness, where letting players be any more unpredictable would be detrimental, but so would be making their decisions any more easily predictable. In other words, there’s some optimal amount of player generated randomness that we’d ideally want. Jokingly, you could say that the whole process of designing competitive games is a process of seeking this optimum.
>
>
> See, in that candy cup game of mine the player who sets the candy and the cups is working as a Random number generator(I know there are no numbers but bear with me). The reason there is no way to predict anything is that the players don’t have any reasons or motives to go for a particular cup. Ofcourse, you already knew this.
>
> So I’m saying that you and/or SiN SHOOT2KILL can’t just say that sprint adds depth to the game because it’s created by the players.
>
> “Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games.” This is what we need to be talking about. What does predict mean? Because in the candy cup game, depending on the perspective, you could say that you need to predict what the other player might do or you might be forced to guess what the other player will do. The same can be said about sprint. Are you able to predict or are you forced to guess? How can you predict your opponents moves, when everyone has the ability to change their speed whenever they feel like it? Can it be done consistently? And is this subjective or can it be measured? I’m not asking you, but feel free to answer.
>
> The tragedy behind sprints flow prediction is that while it makes flow prediction harder, it also makes it more random. There will be times where you’ll have your numbers down but that guy just happened to be there because there were so many options and routes he could take and to kill him you should have just gotten lucky like he did. I think that we should get rid of those free kills and deaths that sprint provides. It’s not like the flow of the PvP environment was obvious in any Halo ever.
This is the main reason I dislike sprint. If you have adequate map, spawn and game flow knowledge, as well as an accurate prediction on what the opponent is going to do at any given time, there should be very little to no guesswork or surprises. By throwing another variable into player movement you add to the guesswork, and even with accurate prediction on the goals of the opponent you can end up surprised.
Now, sprint isn’t the only mechanic responsible for this effect. Other SA’s cause it as well, particularly due to map design and how you can utilize them for so many shortcuts on maps. But it definitely contributes.
The trouble is whether this, and the other ways sprint alters the game, are good or bad is based on opinion. Despite what zealots say on either side of the fence, Halo can function with or without sprint. Hence the reason 99% of this thread could not exist and the views on the subject would remain the same. All the back and forth is based on, “I like what sprint does.”, or, “I do not like what sprint does.”.
> 2625759425619671;11470:
> > 2535439149692170;11464:
> > I’d love to see 343 jump into the discussion here.
>
>
> Just because 343i isn’t jumping in here doesn’t mean that they are not listening.
And that’s an issue :). I’m sure they listen by eyes and ears on what people want, but they then do the opposite and piss people off. Breakout is -Yoinked!-, the E-sports scene ignores their own players and refuses setting changes, the game as a whole is still bug ridden, the name halo has has had a decreasing stock and losing millions in sales. I’m sure 343 Is watching, but not listening.
next is why and how is sprint a success in halo? Is anything really a success to begin with if it’s not holding the game up? It really isn’t fair to say sprint is a success cause no one praises it, they see halos numbers decreasing. You know how sprint could be viewed as a success tho? By it being a part of a game that has stock going ^^^^^ and not down. Sprint has also been a constant since it’s inclusion in each halo regressing backwards. So what bases are you using that sprint in halo is a success? I believe you even said it was unique from other games as well yes? Care to say why? Cause I’d argue it’s unique in being the only iteration having penalties added to it game by game cause of a crowd that disapproves of it and 343 failing in a “comprise”.
I feel that sprinting is a tactical decision,speed vs ability to fire first.
While sprinting gets you to a to b faster or alternative can help you displace yourself from a bad position, gives a camping or walking enemy a good .5-1 sec advantage in damage output as the sprinter stops and levels their weapon. This makes all the difference in SWAT or in just about any equal weapon fire fight.
Also f*** spartan charge, nothing says “I’m an unskilled player who would rather just panic knife in CoD” quite like spartan charging.
> 2535446485707379;11474:
> > 2533274943854776;11462:
> > > 2533274825830455;11379:
> > >
> >
> >
> > See, in that candy cup game of mine the player who sets the candy and the cups is working as a Random number generator(I know there are no numbers but bear with me). The reason there is no way to predict anything is that the players don’t have any reasons or motives to go for a particular cup. Ofcourse, you already knew this.
> >
> > So I’m saying that you and/or SiN SHOOT2KILL can’t just say that sprint adds depth to the game because it’s created by the players.
> >
> > “Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games.” This is what we need to be talking about. What does predict mean? Because in the candy cup game, depending on the perspective, you could say that you need to predict what the other player might do or you might be forced to guess what the other player will do. The same can be said about sprint. Are you able to predict or are you forced to guess? How can you predict your opponents moves, when everyone has the ability to change their speed whenever they feel like it? Can it be done consistently? And is this subjective or can it be measured? I’m not asking you, but feel free to answer.
> >
> > The tragedy behind sprints flow prediction is that while it makes flow prediction harder, it also makes it more random. There will be times where you’ll have your numbers down but that guy just happened to be there because there were so many options and routes he could take and to kill him you should have just gotten lucky like he did. I think that we should get rid of those free kills and deaths that sprint provides. It’s not like the flow of the PvP environment was obvious in any Halo ever.
>
>
> The trouble is whether this, and the other ways sprint alters the game, are good or bad is based on opinion. Despite what zealots say on either side of the fence, Halo can function with or without sprint. Hence the reason 99% of this thread could not exist and the views on the subject would remain the same. All the back and forth is based on, “I like what sprint does.”, or, “I do not like what sprint does.”.
I can totally agree with all of that… I was still hoping to try to work towards some sort of compromise on the issue, which I’ve discussed multiple times… I haven’t gotten much back from anyone here regarding a willingness to compromise (or for some- to even be partial/open minded on the issue when discussing it). I still don’t think it has to be some “all or nothing,” issue; nor do people have to shout about it here and try to “debunk,” “demolish,” or “destroy,” their fellow fans’ opinions for being on the opposite side of the fence.
I will say that I have learned a lot about this issue while partaking in the sprint discussion in this thread, but it’s been difficult to debate with some anti sprinters coming in here with a one objective- to try and “destroy,” any and all of my pro sprint opinions… What’s been further aggravating is the logic in which some people try to claim “my anti sprint opinion is right and you’re just not educated enough in Halo,” (Or “smart,” enough or “lacking knowledge,” because those are just methods to discredit me versus to even address my pro sprint opinions). People have to realize that “winning,” in this thread doesn’t mean they’ll impact whether sprint is on the next Halo game… We’re all just fellow fans here, discussing this issue on an even playing field. No one is better than the other or more “right,” in their stance.
> 2535466533436400;11466:
> Sprint needs to stay, a modern FPS can’t survive without it. Spartan charge and sliding can go. Keep the other abilities. That would make me happy.
Just a curious question, but do you think a modern shooter could survive without 60fps?
> 2533274886529017;11473:
> 1) For convenience’s sake, Imma just write retorts next to what you say in the quotes, possibly bolded.
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;11341:
> > 7) Maps are not designed solely to cater to sprint. Players can’t even shoot when they’re sprinting or recharge their shields so the risk/reward elements of choosing to use sprint in the first place neutralize this argument; along with the fact that multiple things are deliberated and tested during the development of new maps - not every single one of those deliberations during the creation of a new map come down to “Does this map work for sprint.”
> >
> > - They neutralize it? How so? You gave me bullet points, but no definitive evidence. How is there risk and reward to not being able to sprint shoot when the maps are so segmented and corner based that escape is easy since you can break line of sight with your opponent quickly?
> >
> > 8) Hollow numbers in this debate because a) you can’t even remotely prove that I’m a minority on this issue in the millions of gamers around world and b) the decline in overall popularity of Halo is attributed to a wide array of other factors. Trying to pin everything thing on sprint is misguided.
> >
> > -You know that’s an argumentative hole, right? If you’re going to say that I can’t prove you’re a minority, you can’t prove you’re somehow a majority. You can bring up your friends and the like, but I can just bring up the population gap between older Halos and now to shut that down.
> >
> > 11) The result has been a unique experience- Halo offers sprint in a way quite unlike other games with sprint. The developers have taken steps towards mitigating “cat and mouse,” games that resulted from the ability to recharge energy shields while sprinting… And unlike in COD you cannot sprint/shoot which sprint/no shoot is actually more realistic anyway.
> >
> > - Also, you can’t sprint/shoot in CoD.
For convenience’s sake I’m going to shorten this down to any points that might have anything new to offer (versus the “continual loop” of arguing for the sake of it which is where you’re taking the rest of those points… Make no mistake, I’m not conceding on those points and you aren’t swimming in a “sea of right,” because I’m not responding to them. I’m trying to spare the rest of the people in this thread having to hear any more useless bickering from this new argument with you).
You equally provided “no definitive evidence,” regarding your “map widening to fit sprint” theory. I gave you the answers you’re asking for but you just ignored them. Neutralizing sprint comes down to effective team play and controlling the map, among other things that I’ve already told you. I stated two replies ago: “You can absolutely make pushes reliably in Halo 5. Winning games in Arena quite often comes down to the team making effective pushes to win games, but also boils down to map control, team shots, and shooting better than your opponents in 1v1 situations. When people try to sprint away from me and my team they almost always get pushed and funneled to their doom because of our teamwork to include: effective pushes, proper position, and retaining of map control.” If you do those basic things that you’re supposed to do anyway to win competitive games (properly) than sprint will not be a factor in the game.
Absolutely not. There’s no “argumentative hole,” (though to even respond to you in the first place is debatably me willingly partaking in an “argumentative hole,” with you about this issue in and about itself). You’re not going to “shut down,” anything by firing your weightless arguments at me about this one. It would different if I tried to assert that I was the majority as a pro sprinter but I’ve done nothing of the sort. I’ve spoken to my friends about sprint, my fellow Spartan company members, my Twitch viewers, and various people that join my lobbies- sure. I’ve spoken to a ton of Halo fans about sprint. Their opinions are important enough for me to be able to share here without you trying to “shut them down,” in your own bias methods. Other people have been able to discuss this with me subjectively but because it poses a pro sprint opinion you’re on the offensive yet again to just shoot it down for no good reason. And remember, you and the other anti sprinters tried to claim that a 200-person wide TeamBeyond poll was important enough to bring into the discussion - well I’ve spoken to at least that many people and the answer has been 100% pro sprint.
Yes you actually can sprint and shoot at the same time in Call of Duty. It’s called the Gung-Ho Perk.
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> 2535464451695009;11480:
> > 2625759425619671;11463:
> > 2) The best way to solve the problem of a game playing slow is to find ways to make it play faster… I think this is best accomplished by ensuring that FOV is properly tweaked while keeping sprint in Halo. I’m not saying that “sprint makes Halo play faster,” however there’s still no reason to take out once FOV has been tweaked for optimal gameplay.
> >
> > 3) Battlefield is not equal to Halo… Plus if all Halo does is dial up FOV to something like 120 (like in Battlefield) then that would be moving Halo closer to Battlefield anyway. Bigger maps in Halo doesn’t equate to Halo becoming Battlefield- Plus I didn’t suggest jumping from 24 to 64 as a player count in maps anyway… Just a slight increase in map size and player count is what I’m hoping for in the next Halo title which doesn’t have to equate to Battlefield-types of maps and player counts.
> >
> > 4) Okay but the buggy aspects were just some of the problems cited by that source regarding trying to incorporate sprint as a power up in Halo. What about the reasoning from my points on why sprint being delivered as a power up is detrimental for Halo?
>
>
> 2) I’ll just leave this, since you keep on repeating the same thing without giving an explanation as to how or why.
>
> 3) but you’re still not understanding me.
>
> 4) You really should clarify your suggestions and points or else people will think you’re talking about something else.
3/4) Likewise
I believe we’ve gone about as far as the two of us are going to go on this issue… Multiple misunderstandings on both sides after multiple counters unfortunately indicates that this particular back and forth has about run its course.
Sprint has destroyed the MP side of halo. That’s why people get so heated over this topic shoot2kill.
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