The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > 1) Interesting reads. It’s obvious that you are an outlier when it comes to the pro-sprint argument. Actual thought out and explained points are rare amongst the pro-sprint crowd. I apologize for thinking that you didn’t know what you were talking about, because you clearly do.
> >
> > 2) On the immersion side of things, I just disagree with you. If anything I find it more frustrating as maps are obviously designed for sprint, and not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage.
> >
> > 3) Lore wise, Spartans in the past have been able to move at full speed while also being able to shoot. That is how a game with higher FoV would feel, IMO.
> >
> > 4) While I feel that sprint has no place in Arena and it’s pretty easy to explain why, it’s harder to defend BTB. Sprint feels decent in the wide open expanses. But that is a problem in and of itself. The Forge remakes in BTB matchmaking don’t work well at all. They feel too small, and minimize the importance of vehicles. Making BTB maps bigger to compensate for this in Halo 6 seems counter-intuitive as they it will create similar situations but also make walking across those maps even more of a chore. Warzone already does this to a certain extent.
> >
> > 5) Those maps are too big, even with sprint. That is the real problem with Sprint, that it requires maps to be bigger, but by making maps bigger you are making sprint less and less useful, but at the same time more and more required.
> >
> > 6) The solution is proper Vehicle, Man-Cannon, and Teleporter implementation, and well designed maps. It might not be a perfect solution, but the negatives that come with them are a lot less worse than the negatives that come with sprint (the separation of combat and movement, spread out maps, minimization and removal of vehicles).
>
>
> 1) Thanks although aside me and Josh Holmes, I’ve seen a bunch of other solid and rationale points from multiple people (many here in this thread) defending the notion of having sprint in Halo… Believe it or not I don’t always agree with pro sprinters on everything- particularly when it comes to the defense that “sprint helps escape punishment.” I don’t view sprint as helping to escape punishment; especially with the balancing tweaks that 343i applied to Halo 5 in order to mitigate the old “cat and mouse,” games created from sprint on Halo Reach. Either way no harm done - I enjoy debating this issue because I’m hoping to learn more about why some of my fellow fans actually want sprint removed. Participating in this thread has taught me a great deal about how many people feel on the subject of sprint, along with how far some people have been willing to go to viciously speak out against sprint (That’s not to imply that all anti sprinters have conducted themselves in this way either)
>
> 2) That’s understandable - a lot of people have disagreed with me (and Josh Holmes) regarding immersion being a benefit of keeping sprint in Halo. I’ve seen people agree with me too, however and I’d point out that people who dislike something like sprint are going to be the more likely ones to take to a creative medium such as Waypoint to express their displeasure about it… There have been a lot of responses here in his thread to support that as a lot of pro sprinters have stated that they don’t even know that sprint is an issue right now in Halo.
>
> 3) I’ve also discussed sprint/shoot versus sprint/no shoot which is really what I think you’re arguing for… One BMS couldn’t really be an all-out gallop so if you want to be able to sprint/shoot at the same time here are some points that I’ve made about that when comparing sprint/shoot to modern rifle marksmanship and discussing why sprint/no shoot makes sense for Halo.
>
> 4) I could be misunderstanding but it appears (at least by the way that you opening that point) that you’d be at least somewhat open to a split settings compromise on the next Halo, such as what I’ve been calling for in this thread?
>
> 5) I was actually really glad to see larger, more breathtaking maps on Halo 5 in Warzone and hole they continue this trend in Halo 6. I believe they can make maps even larger if they just expand the player count and keep sprint in Warzone.
>
> 6) I’ve argued multiple reasons why I don’t think that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles present a viable substitute to vehicles. I think I already linked my feelings on vehicles so you probably already read that, however to summarize regarding teleporters and man canons: “Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place (You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace).”
>
> I realize that we’re not likely to wholly agree on these points either but I thank you for being patient and open minded enough to read my points and to respond to them!

3/4.) No, I’d rather not have a split setting, I was just admitting that sprint in BTB makes more sense than sprint in Arena. I’d rather not have it still though, as proper map design and use of other objects (even though you don’t like them) and mechanics can give all the benefits of sprint while also keeping the negatives to a minimum, and having a “guns-up sprint” gives all of the benefit and none of the consequence. People would just sprint around at all times, essentially making it a base movement speed, with the effect of greatly increasing the base movement speed. This would spread out maps, drag out encounter distances, and effect the weapon sandbox. All negatives of Sprint as it exists now.

6.) Playing around Teleporters is part of the depth they offer, and are only another option for the player. Sprint becomes the only option when you take things like that away, removing depth and forcing players instead of giving options. Same with Man-Cannons and Vehicles. The combination of the three creates a dynamic where you have multiple means of travel instead of just one, Sprint. You are right that some of the Vehicle implementation in the past has been flawed, and that getting around larger maps such as Sandtrap are a chore if you don’t have any, but my counter is that Sandtrap is not well designed and doesn’t really offer any depth in that regard. Vehicles are the only way to move around that map. Avalanche on the other hand is a good example of how Teleporters, Man-Cannons, and Vehicles can be balanced in a way that gives players many options, and adds to the depth of the game. And on the point about how you shouldn’t have to risk moving faster, that is literally what Sprint is now. If you get shot while sprinting you are at a massive disadvantage. In Arena (and I realize that we are talking about BTB primarily here) if you get caught sprinting and get hit by a shot or two you are done. It’s the exact same thing, and a primary argument about removing sprint, it separates movement and combat.

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> > > 1) Interesting reads. It’s obvious that you are an outlier when it comes to the pro-sprint argument. Actual thought out and explained points are rare amongst the pro-sprint crowd. I apologize for thinking that you didn’t know what you were talking about, because you clearly do.
> > >
> > > 2) On the immersion side of things, I just disagree with you. If anything I find it more frustrating as maps are obviously designed for sprint, and not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage.
> > >
> > > 3) Lore wise, Spartans in the past have been able to move at full speed while also being able to shoot. That is how a game with higher FoV would feel, IMO.
> > >
> > > 4) While I feel that sprint has no place in Arena and it’s pretty easy to explain why, it’s harder to defend BTB. Sprint feels decent in the wide open expanses. But that is a problem in and of itself. The Forge remakes in BTB matchmaking don’t work well at all. They feel too small, and minimize the importance of vehicles. Making BTB maps bigger to compensate for this in Halo 6 seems counter-intuitive as they it will create similar situations but also make walking across those maps even more of a chore. Warzone already does this to a certain extent.
> > >
> > > 5) Those maps are too big, even with sprint. That is the real problem with Sprint, that it requires maps to be bigger, but by making maps bigger you are making sprint less and less useful, but at the same time more and more required.
> > >
> > > 6) The solution is proper Vehicle, Man-Cannon, and Teleporter implementation, and well designed maps. It might not be a perfect solution, but the negatives that come with them are a lot less worse than the negatives that come with sprint (the separation of combat and movement, spread out maps, minimization and removal of vehicles).
> >
> >
> > 1) Thanks although aside me and Josh Holmes, I’ve seen a bunch of other solid and rationale points from multiple people (many here in this thread) defending the notion of having sprint in Halo… Believe it or not I don’t always agree with pro sprinters on everything- particularly when it comes to the defense that “sprint helps escape punishment.” I don’t view sprint as helping to escape punishment; especially with the balancing tweaks that 343i applied to Halo 5 in order to mitigate the old “cat and mouse,” games created from sprint on Halo Reach. Either way no harm done - I enjoy debating this issue because I’m hoping to learn more about why some of my fellow fans actually want sprint removed. Participating in this thread has taught me a great deal about how many people feel on the subject of sprint, along with how far some people have been willing to go to viciously speak out against sprint (That’s not to imply that all anti sprinters have conducted themselves in this way either)
> >
> > 2) That’s understandable - a lot of people have disagreed with me (and Josh Holmes) regarding immersion being a benefit of keeping sprint in Halo. I’ve seen people agree with me too, however and I’d point out that people who dislike something like sprint are going to be the more likely ones to take to a creative medium such as Waypoint to express their displeasure about it… There have been a lot of responses here in his thread to support that as a lot of pro sprinters have stated that they don’t even know that sprint is an issue right now in Halo.
> >
> > 3) I’ve also discussed sprint/shoot versus sprint/no shoot which is really what I think you’re arguing for… One BMS couldn’t really be an all-out gallop so if you want to be able to sprint/shoot at the same time here are some points that I’ve made about that when comparing sprint/shoot to modern rifle marksmanship and discussing why sprint/no shoot makes sense for Halo.
> >
> > 4) I could be misunderstanding but it appears (at least by the way that you opening that point) that you’d be at least somewhat open to a split settings compromise on the next Halo, such as what I’ve been calling for in this thread?
> >
> > 5) I was actually really glad to see larger, more breathtaking maps on Halo 5 in Warzone and hole they continue this trend in Halo 6. I believe they can make maps even larger if they just expand the player count and keep sprint in Warzone.
> >
> > 6) I’ve argued multiple reasons why I don’t think that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles present a viable substitute to vehicles. I think I already linked my feelings on vehicles so you probably already read that, however to summarize regarding teleporters and man canons: “Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place (You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace).”
> >
> > I realize that we’re not likely to wholly agree on these points either but I thank you for being patient and open minded enough to read my points and to respond to them!
>
>
> 3/4.) No, I’d rather not have a split setting, I was just admitting that sprint in BTB makes more sense than sprint in Arena.
>
> 6.) Playing around Teleporters is part of the depth they offer, and are only another option for the player. Sprint becomes the only option when you take things like that away, removing depth and forcing players instead of giving options. Same with Man-Cannons and Vehicles. The combination of the three creates a dynamic where you have multiple means of travel instead of just one, Sprint. You are right that some of the Vehicle implementation in the past has been flawed, and that getting around larger maps such as Sandtrap are a chore if you don’t have any, but my counter is that Sandtrap is not well designed and doesn’t really offer any depth in that regard. Vehicles are the only way to move around that map. Avalanche on the other hand is a good example of how Teleporters, Man-Cannons, and Vehicles can be balanced in a way that gives players many options, and adds to the depth of the game.

3/4 Okay like I said, I thought I might have misunderstood the meaning of that point from you so thanks for clarifying. And thanks for reading and responding to those points anyway.

  1. But there are still teleporters, man canons, and vehicles in Halo 5 and they’re still used all the time… Take this clip for example which highlights the usefulness of a man canon in Halo 5 :wink:

I wasn’t arguing that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles shouldn’t be in Halo- Just that they aren’t a viable substitute for sprint. They still have their variety of uses to enhance gameplay as you outlined in this point.

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> Woah woah woah- let me stop you before you begin on this- you have yet to even reply to my previous counters to you let alone to effectively “deconstruct,” any of my arguments; yet your aggressive nature in this thread to blindly do just that to any and every point you’ve considered to be “pro sprint,” has been nearly unparalleled. Plus I can refer to previous discussions anyway that I want to- the quotes are accurate and the debate has already been taking place. Who are you to try to tell me how I can or cannot post here?
>
> 2) All I need to know is explained in the parts of that quote which I left there… You’re 100% bias in this issue and you’ll attack every point that I’ll ever make just like that if it comes off as “pro sprint,” to you.
>
> 3) You haven’t even responded to my last points to you on this- you just pop back out whenever the moment feels right to try to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” my points but when I fully responded to you you’d rather ignore it.
>
> 4) The choice is simple- do they a) provide players to pick between two BMS’ or do they be b) force players to use just one BMS. Two choices of movement = choice, and that’s no illusion bud… That’s how it is.

1.) :stuck_out_tongue: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/the-sprint-discussion-thread/65b90d3b-03bd-48fa-ae0d-5427f4fbe512/posts?page=569#post11365

And what? I never at all told how you to post, never implied it. I just said you should maybe look at your points, then quote me, given I constantly refute your points, but you keep bringing them up like some are still valid, despite being disproven.

2.) I won’t attack your points, I’ll refute and argue against them. Has nothing to do with bias given I know both sides of the coin, and don’t argue just because I “like” something. I’m arguing them because I know both sides and the downsides one brings and has brought compared to the other. Seems others are doing the same against you, too. Hmm. Don’t think you used bias properly, there. :stuck_out_tongue:

3.) Exhibit 1.)

4.) “Choices” with one being a clear disadvantage due to map structure, meaning if you don’t sprint in out of combat scenarios, you’re putting yourself at a clear disadvantage, mobility wise. Let me simplify, the game doesn’t force you to sprint, but it clearly punishes you for not doing so, thus making it not so much a choice, but necessity for basic map movement.

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> > Woah woah woah- let me stop you before you begin on this- you have yet to even reply to my previous counters to you let alone to effectively “deconstruct,” any of my arguments; yet your aggressive nature in this thread to blindly do just that to any and every point you’ve considered to be “pro sprint,” has been nearly unparalleled. Plus I can refer to previous discussions anyway that I want to- the quotes are accurate and the debate has already been taking place. Who are you to try to tell me how I can or cannot post here?
> >
> > 2) All I need to know is explained in the parts of that quote which I left there… You’re 100% bias in this issue and you’ll attack every point that I’ll ever make just like that if it comes off as “pro sprint,” to you.
> >
> > 3) You haven’t even responded to my last points to you on this- you just pop back out whenever the moment feels right to try to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” my points but when I fully responded to you you’d rather ignore it.
> >
> > 4) The choice is simple- do they a) provide players to pick between two BMS’ or do they be b) force players to use just one BMS. Two choices of movement = choice, and that’s no illusion bud… That’s how it is.
>
>
> 1.) :stuck_out_tongue: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/6e35355aecdf4fd0acdaee3cc4156fd4/topics/the-sprint-discussion-thread/65b90d3b-03bd-48fa-ae0d-5427f4fbe512/posts?page=569#post11365
>
> And what? I never at all told how you to post, never implied it. I just said you should maybe look at your points, then quote me, given I constantly refute your points, but you keep bringing them up like some are still valid, despite being disproven.
>
> 2.) I won’t attack your points, I’ll refute and argue against them. Has nothing to do with bias given I know both sides of the coin, and don’t argue just because I “like” something. I’m arguing them because I know both sides and the downsides one brings and has brought compared to the other. Seems others are doing the same against you, too. Hmm. Don’t think you used bias properly, there. :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> 3.) Exhibit 1.)
>
> 4.) “Choices” with one being a clear disadvantage due to map structure, meaning if you don’t sprint in out of combat scenarios, you’re putting yourself at a clear disadvantage, mobility wise. Let me simplify, the game doesn’t force you to sprint, but it clearly punishes you for not doing so, thus making it not so much a choice, but necessity for basic map movement.

I don’t know how you manage to slide responses in like that without me seeing them- only yours never seem to show up in my feed. I’ll have to look at them later, I have other stuff to do… Though it’s doubtful that after your last set of heated and bias counters that you’d have had much new to offer on those particular points… Just more “tearing away,” to try and “disembowel,” “debunk,” and/or “destroy,” (or whatever you wanna call it these days) every single pro sprint opinion that you read in these threads. Bottom line is that you don’t have some god-given sense of right to stand upon on this issue to claim that you know more about the game or are more educated which makes your opinions against sprint more “right,” than my opinions arguing to keep sprint.

11448

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> I don’t know how you manage to slide responses in like that without me seeing them- only yours never seem to show up in my feed. I’ll have to look at them later, I have other stuff to do… Though it’s doubtful that after your last set of heated and bias counters that you’d have had much new to offer on those points.

There was nothing heated or biased about what I spoke about. Heated implies I’m angry, which I’m not and was never implied to be (Actually said I wasn’t angry at one point in my rant), and bias implies I speak about one side as if it’s the trump card, without taking any consideration into the other, which is wrong, given I need to look into and understand the other side entirely to make my points in the first place.

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> > > > 1) Interesting reads. It’s obvious that you are an outlier when it comes to the pro-sprint argument. Actual thought out and explained points are rare amongst the pro-sprint crowd. I apologize for thinking that you didn’t know what you were talking about, because you clearly do.
> > > >
> > > > 2) On the immersion side of things, I just disagree with you. If anything I find it more frustrating as maps are obviously designed for sprint, and not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage.
> > > >
> > > > 3) Lore wise, Spartans in the past have been able to move at full speed while also being able to shoot. That is how a game with higher FoV would feel, IMO.
> > > >
> > > > 4) While I feel that sprint has no place in Arena and it’s pretty easy to explain why, it’s harder to defend BTB. Sprint feels decent in the wide open expanses. But that is a problem in and of itself. The Forge remakes in BTB matchmaking don’t work well at all. They feel too small, and minimize the importance of vehicles. Making BTB maps bigger to compensate for this in Halo 6 seems counter-intuitive as they it will create similar situations but also make walking across those maps even more of a chore. Warzone already does this to a certain extent.
> > > >
> > > > 5) Those maps are too big, even with sprint. That is the real problem with Sprint, that it requires maps to be bigger, but by making maps bigger you are making sprint less and less useful, but at the same time more and more required.
> > > >
> > > > 6) The solution is proper Vehicle, Man-Cannon, and Teleporter implementation, and well designed maps. It might not be a perfect solution, but the negatives that come with them are a lot less worse than the negatives that come with sprint (the separation of combat and movement, spread out maps, minimization and removal of vehicles).
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) Thanks although aside me and Josh Holmes, I’ve seen a bunch of other solid and rationale points from multiple people (many here in this thread) defending the notion of having sprint in Halo… Believe it or not I don’t always agree with pro sprinters on everything- particularly when it comes to the defense that “sprint helps escape punishment.” I don’t view sprint as helping to escape punishment; especially with the balancing tweaks that 343i applied to Halo 5 in order to mitigate the old “cat and mouse,” games created from sprint on Halo Reach. Either way no harm done - I enjoy debating this issue because I’m hoping to learn more about why some of my fellow fans actually want sprint removed. Participating in this thread has taught me a great deal about how many people feel on the subject of sprint, along with how far some people have been willing to go to viciously speak out against sprint (That’s not to imply that all anti sprinters have conducted themselves in this way either)
> > >
> > > 2) That’s understandable - a lot of people have disagreed with me (and Josh Holmes) regarding immersion being a benefit of keeping sprint in Halo. I’ve seen people agree with me too, however and I’d point out that people who dislike something like sprint are going to be the more likely ones to take to a creative medium such as Waypoint to express their displeasure about it… There have been a lot of responses here in his thread to support that as a lot of pro sprinters have stated that they don’t even know that sprint is an issue right now in Halo.
> > >
> > > 3) I’ve also discussed sprint/shoot versus sprint/no shoot which is really what I think you’re arguing for… One BMS couldn’t really be an all-out gallop so if you want to be able to sprint/shoot at the same time here are some points that I’ve made about that when comparing sprint/shoot to modern rifle marksmanship and discussing why sprint/no shoot makes sense for Halo.
> > >
> > > 4) I could be misunderstanding but it appears (at least by the way that you opening that point) that you’d be at least somewhat open to a split settings compromise on the next Halo, such as what I’ve been calling for in this thread?
> > >
> > > 5) I was actually really glad to see larger, more breathtaking maps on Halo 5 in Warzone and hole they continue this trend in Halo 6. I believe they can make maps even larger if they just expand the player count and keep sprint in Warzone.
> > >
> > > 6) I’ve argued multiple reasons why I don’t think that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles present a viable substitute to vehicles. I think I already linked my feelings on vehicles so you probably already read that, however to summarize regarding teleporters and man canons: “Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place (You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace).”
> > >
> > > I realize that we’re not likely to wholly agree on these points either but I thank you for being patient and open minded enough to read my points and to respond to them!
> >
> >
> > 3/4.) No, I’d rather not have a split setting, I was just admitting that sprint in BTB makes more sense than sprint in Arena.
> >
> > 6.) Playing around Teleporters is part of the depth they offer, and are only another option for the player. Sprint becomes the only option when you take things like that away, removing depth and forcing players instead of giving options. Same with Man-Cannons and Vehicles. The combination of the three creates a dynamic where you have multiple means of travel instead of just one, Sprint. You are right that some of the Vehicle implementation in the past has been flawed, and that getting around larger maps such as Sandtrap are a chore if you don’t have any, but my counter is that Sandtrap is not well designed and doesn’t really offer any depth in that regard. Vehicles are the only way to move around that map. Avalanche on the other hand is a good example of how Teleporters, Man-Cannons, and Vehicles can be balanced in a way that gives players many options, and adds to the depth of the game.
>
>
> 3/4 Okay like I said, I thought I might have misunderstood the meaning of that point from you so thanks for clarifying. And thanks for reading and responding to those points anyway.
>
> 6) But there are still teleporters in Halo 5 and they’re still used all the time… Take this clip for example :wink:
> I wasn’t arguing that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles shouldn’t be in Halo- Just that they aren’t a viable substitute for sprint. They still have their variety of uses to enhance gameplay as you outlined in this point.

When properly utilized they are though. Beaver Creek is a perfect example. They are there as an option and not a requirement. Avalanche is another great example of teleporter implementation for the use of quick map traversal. It’s not as precise as Sprint, meaning you can’t go exactly where you want, Teleporters and Man-Cannons are absolutely viable replacements for quick travel.

11450

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>
>
> There was nothing heated or biased about what I spoke about. Heated implies I’m angry, which I’m not and was never implied to be (Actually said I wasn’t angry at one point in my rant)

A rant (which is what you admit your counters to have been) typically implies that you were either angry or not fully considering what you were even typing out… Which is how many of your counters came across to me on those points the first time you typed them up. I just want to stay on topic in this thread and discuss sprint constructively… None of your arguments ever lead to a constructive outcome- you just continuously try to affirm your opinions are more “right,” because people in thread sometimes like your posts and so you think you’re more educated than me and know more about how the game works… That’s the loop you always want to go back into and it’s not rationale.

11451

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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Interesting reads. It’s obvious that you are an outlier when it comes to the pro-sprint argument. Actual thought out and explained points are rare amongst the pro-sprint crowd. I apologize for thinking that you didn’t know what you were talking about, because you clearly do.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) On the immersion side of things, I just disagree with you. If anything I find it more frustrating as maps are obviously designed for sprint, and not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) Lore wise, Spartans in the past have been able to move at full speed while also being able to shoot. That is how a game with higher FoV would feel, IMO.
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) While I feel that sprint has no place in Arena and it’s pretty easy to explain why, it’s harder to defend BTB. Sprint feels decent in the wide open expanses. But that is a problem in and of itself. The Forge remakes in BTB matchmaking don’t work well at all. They feel too small, and minimize the importance of vehicles. Making BTB maps bigger to compensate for this in Halo 6 seems counter-intuitive as they it will create similar situations but also make walking across those maps even more of a chore. Warzone already does this to a certain extent.
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) Those maps are too big, even with sprint. That is the real problem with Sprint, that it requires maps to be bigger, but by making maps bigger you are making sprint less and less useful, but at the same time more and more required.
> > > > >
> > > > > 6) The solution is proper Vehicle, Man-Cannon, and Teleporter implementation, and well designed maps. It might not be a perfect solution, but the negatives that come with them are a lot less worse than the negatives that come with sprint (the separation of combat and movement, spread out maps, minimization and removal of vehicles).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1) Thanks although aside me and Josh Holmes, I’ve seen a bunch of other solid and rationale points from multiple people (many here in this thread) defending the notion of having sprint in Halo… Believe it or not I don’t always agree with pro sprinters on everything- particularly when it comes to the defense that “sprint helps escape punishment.” I don’t view sprint as helping to escape punishment; especially with the balancing tweaks that 343i applied to Halo 5 in order to mitigate the old “cat and mouse,” games created from sprint on Halo Reach. Either way no harm done - I enjoy debating this issue because I’m hoping to learn more about why some of my fellow fans actually want sprint removed. Participating in this thread has taught me a great deal about how many people feel on the subject of sprint, along with how far some people have been willing to go to viciously speak out against sprint (That’s not to imply that all anti sprinters have conducted themselves in this way either)
> > > >
> > > > 2) That’s understandable - a lot of people have disagreed with me (and Josh Holmes) regarding immersion being a benefit of keeping sprint in Halo. I’ve seen people agree with me too, however and I’d point out that people who dislike something like sprint are going to be the more likely ones to take to a creative medium such as Waypoint to express their displeasure about it… There have been a lot of responses here in his thread to support that as a lot of pro sprinters have stated that they don’t even know that sprint is an issue right now in Halo.
> > > >
> > > > 3) I’ve also discussed sprint/shoot versus sprint/no shoot which is really what I think you’re arguing for… One BMS couldn’t really be an all-out gallop so if you want to be able to sprint/shoot at the same time here are some points that I’ve made about that when comparing sprint/shoot to modern rifle marksmanship and discussing why sprint/no shoot makes sense for Halo.
> > > >
> > > > 4) I could be misunderstanding but it appears (at least by the way that you opening that point) that you’d be at least somewhat open to a split settings compromise on the next Halo, such as what I’ve been calling for in this thread?
> > > >
> > > > 5) I was actually really glad to see larger, more breathtaking maps on Halo 5 in Warzone and hole they continue this trend in Halo 6. I believe they can make maps even larger if they just expand the player count and keep sprint in Warzone.
> > > >
> > > > 6) I’ve argued multiple reasons why I don’t think that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles present a viable substitute to vehicles. I think I already linked my feelings on vehicles so you probably already read that, however to summarize regarding teleporters and man canons: “Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place (You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace).”
> > > >
> > > > I realize that we’re not likely to wholly agree on these points either but I thank you for being patient and open minded enough to read my points and to respond to them!
> > >
> > >
> > > 3/4.) No, I’d rather not have a split setting, I was just admitting that sprint in BTB makes more sense than sprint in Arena.
> > >
> > > 6.) Playing around Teleporters is part of the depth they offer, and are only another option for the player. Sprint becomes the only option when you take things like that away, removing depth and forcing players instead of giving options. Same with Man-Cannons and Vehicles. The combination of the three creates a dynamic where you have multiple means of travel instead of just one, Sprint. You are right that some of the Vehicle implementation in the past has been flawed, and that getting around larger maps such as Sandtrap are a chore if you don’t have any, but my counter is that Sandtrap is not well designed and doesn’t really offer any depth in that regard. Vehicles are the only way to move around that map. Avalanche on the other hand is a good example of how Teleporters, Man-Cannons, and Vehicles can be balanced in a way that gives players many options, and adds to the depth of the game.
> >
> >
> > 3/4 Okay like I said, I thought I might have misunderstood the meaning of that point from you so thanks for clarifying. And thanks for reading and responding to those points anyway.
> >
> > 6) But there are still teleporters in Halo 5 and they’re still used all the time… Take this clip for example :wink:
> > I wasn’t arguing that teleporters, man canons, and vehicles shouldn’t be in Halo- Just that they aren’t a viable substitute for sprint. They still have their variety of uses to enhance gameplay as you outlined in this point.
>
>
> When properly utilized they are though.

Well… Thanks again for being subjective when reading my posts and for offering your constructive feedback. Makes sense that we wouldn’t agree on all those points (since you’re still going to be against sprint and I’m still going to be pro sprint) but it was an insightful discussion with you. I’ve also enjoyed reading some of the new points you brought to the debate today.

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> 2625759425619671;11308:
> A rant typically implies that you were either angry or not fully considering what you were even typing out… Which is how many of your counters came across to me on those points the first time you typed them up.

Lol no? Bar the definition of rant which I find to be partially disingenuous, what I write is just long winded with a lot of emphasis due to repetition in what I write. If I was angry, I’d be doing more than just countering points. I’d be name calling, legitimately jabbing at your reputation, playstyle, etc, which I don’t. I fully consider what I type, entirely. It’s how I nearly max out the character limit each and every time in my hour long thinks on what to put in said box.

> 2533274886529017;11338:
> And I’m saying this, not as someone who’s “angry” at you or anything, but just personally baffled, more so.

I mean, I ranted, sure, but explained that I wrote what I said not out of anger, but out of sheer puzzlement.

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> 2533274886529017;11452:
> > 2625759425619671;11308:
> > A rant typically implies that you were either angry or not fully considering what you were even typing out… Which is how many of your counters came across to me on those points the first time you typed them up.
>
>
> Lol no? Bar the definition of rant which I find to be partially disingenuous, what I write is just long winded with a lot of emphasis due to repetition in what I write. If I was angry, I’d be doing more than just countering points. I’d be name calling, legitimately jabbing at your reputation, playstyle, etc, which I don’t. I fully consider what I type, entirely. It’s how I nearly max out the character limit each and every time in my hour long thinks on what to put in said box.
>
>
> > 2533274886529017;11338:
> > And I’m saying this, not as someone who’s “angry” at you or anything, but just personally baffled, more so.
>
>
> I mean, I ranted, sure, but explained that I wrote what I said not out of anger, but out of sheer puzzlement.

Omg like for real?? Look I’ll read your “long winded” (your words not mine) reply later on when I get some time and I’ll admit that I completely missed it somehow today. For some reason only your replies don’t show up in my feed on Waypoint so that one managed to slip right past me. But why… why has this degraded into an argument on semantics about what the word “rant,” means to you versus what it means to me?

Either way I made the point because I have excerpted words out that you’ve written to me in this past sprint “debate,” we’ve recently gotten into (if you’d even call it that) which is why I think you’re heated and your arguments lead to a “continual loop,” that is not constructive.

-Stuff like implying you’re more educated than me which is why you’re more right…

-Or when you open counter points with “You literally don’t understand…”

-Or when you form argument like “The idea you’d… [insert anti sprint comment here] is misguided, because it wouldn’t help…”

-Or when you write off an entire point of mine with “meaning that argument is soooooo weak.”

-And again FTR you called it a rant, not me- “Read my rant on that, again”

Those types of things aren’t typically spoken from a person that is 100% level headed and subjective in a debate, nor can they even lead to constructive outcomes unless they’re completely ignored.

11454

At this point I don’t think that I can bring up any new tidbits to the conversation. So everything I say has very likely been said multiple times already. But i really don’t want to back track through 10000 plus posts.

I dont agree with seperating the community between “pro-sprint” and “anti-sprint”. Because I am not pro sprint, I just don’t think it breaks the game. It should be " sprint breaks the game" vs " Sprint doesn’t break the game".

The part of community that finds something game breaking, or detrimental, will always be louder than those that are satisfied. I love the thruster in halo 5. I think it’s the best thing added in a very long time. I also can’t stand the Spartan charge. I have commented and posted and moaned and complained about the SC endlessly since halo 5 launch. I’ve mentioned how good the thruster is like twice. So one side is going to be much louder on this debate.

All I know is I like playing halo 5 on truth just as much as I used to enjoy midship. I don’t care about FOV, bigger maps, whatever. The gameplay is a little different. But ultimately the map plays out the same it used to. I could go either way on this. Remove sprint, don’t remove sprint, I do want a faster bms than halo 3 though, with or without sprint.

I really think this debate has turned into those who hate sprint vs those that could care less about sprint.

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[deleted]

11456

You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to fam.

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> 2533274886529017;11365:
> > 2625759425619671;11341:
> >
>
>
> 2) Just look at Truth and Midship, maps that you can specifically see how sprint alone affects the map, given the deadspace and stretched flooring. It has nothing to do with “trying to expand the player count”, because the map’s BASED on 4v4 gameplay. It’s supposed to be premiere competitive material. It doesn’t need to be designed, or cater to more than a 4v4 scenario, and it’s wrong to say they don’t favor people who use sprint, because sprint, being as fast as a proper BMS, is normal navigation speed around these stretched maps and thus, those maps entirely favor consistent sprinters.
>
> 3) How does unpredictability benefit the game in any way? Not being able to know and prepare for something doesn’t benefit anyone…
>
> 4) You didn’t read what I said.
>
> 5) I said enemy prediction is unreliable in Halo 5.
>
> 6) Multiple incorrect reasons, sure.
>
> 7) The point remains, not having sprint didn’t impact the maps because the maps weren’t ever designed FOR sprint in the first place.
>
> 8) Yes, okay, now you know not everyone shares your viewpoint? And to that point, my point was on how your minority (Still considered as such) still doesn’t compare to the hundreds of thousands (Possibly in the millions, given the population we saw with Halo 3) who’ve left the most recent games and franchise as a whole, seemingly.
>
> 9) If you’d read what I’ve said, I’ve implied that while I think Halo’s decline was caused by sprint, I do think other things contributed as well.
>
> 10) I’m challenging your ability to understand how the game works
>
> 11) It wasn’t that Halo had a hard time standing out despite being this unique experience with its competitors or something, it was because it purposely homogenized itself with its competitors to attempt to leech off of their fanbases, when that’s short term thinking and obviously has had long lasting repercussions on the game’s population and popularity.

  1. Looks like you started with #2 so #1 is gone.

  2. “Deadspace,” and “stretched flooring,” appear to be the center of your arguments as to why you think maps are “stretched,” to accommodate sprint. I think that citing map dimensions would ring louder than your opinions about how the maps look and feel to you on this point. Furthermore I stated some of the many other reasons why map sizes might be increased anyway other than just blaming it on sprint (Although it seems that blaming everything in Halo that’s perceived as bad on sprint is easier for some anti sprinters). Bottom line is those maps sizes could still have to be increased with or without sprint… I do guarantee you that not every single mapmaking process during development is deliberated by 343i on the sole basis of whether or not the finished product will accommodate sprint.

  3. Again this point just keeps going round and round with you because you’re not reading what I’m actually writing. I’ll make this counter short and simple for you: I’m not arguing that making things completely random is good for gameplay. If you go back and read my previous post I went through great length to try and explain that to you- players can still guess roughly how long it’ll take for their opponents to transition around the map… Having two BMS’ just shakes up that formula a little bit. This leads to more unique encounters and better overall gameplay- and for the final time that is NOT an argument for having something completely unpredictable which is all you keep on arguing about. That’s not my argument so stop it. Once more, I’m… not… arguing… for… complete… randomness… Can’t try to make that any clearer, I really can’t.

  4. Oh and you’re saying you actually read what I write? Not based off your replies to point #3 of this post.

  5. Disagree enemy prediction can and does happen in competitive games of Arena (because of many of the points that I cited in my previous reply on this point). Just watch HCS- how are pros able to consistently win games in Halo 5?? It’s not because they are incapable of predicting where their opponents are going to be.

  6. You can’t open a counter argument with something like that without even providing justification.

  7. Maps are not designed solely to cater to sprint. Players can’t even shoot when they’re sprinting or recharge their shields so the risk/reward elements of choosing to use sprint in the first place neutralize this argument; along with the fact that multiple things are deliberated and tested during the development of new maps - not every single one of those deliberations during the creation of a new map come down to “Does this map work for sprint.”

  8. Hollow numbers in this debate because a) you can’t even remotely prove that I’m a minority on this issue in the millions of gamers around world and b) the decline in overall popularity of Halo is attributed to a wide array of other factors. Trying to pin everything thing on sprint is misguided.

  9. Good, good! I’m proud of you!! You finally made an argument where you admitted it was based off of what you think. That said I respectfully disagree with sprint being the primary culprit of any perceived decline in Halo. Even if you think sprint is a big reason as to why Halo has declined I’ll still have to point out that there’s no way to accurately measure that opinion. I’ve listed out a way for 343i to accurately assess how fans truly feel about sprint and to try to cater to as many fans as possible with a compromise of split settings in the next Halo. Barring 343i proactively seeking out fan feedback by doing something like that, there’s really no way to truly tell who represents the majority on this issue anyway.

  10. I don’t agree that “challenging,” someone’s ability to even understand how the game works is a valid, respectful, or even acceptable method to counter points on this topic. We’re all fellow fans here and on an equal playing field. I believe that (most of us) just want what we feel is best for the next Halo game. That doesn’t mean that one side has evolved to a higher plane of existence surrounded by being overwhelming “right,” in all of our opinions about sprint.

  11. Sprint wasn’t the result of short term thinking… I know you think that sprint was cut from Halo 2 for different reasons that I do, but fact remains that it was developed to be in Halo as early as late 2003- early 2004. Sprint didn’t get implemented into Halo until Halo Reach about 6-7 years later on (As a part time AA) and it evolved into a permanent ability in Halo 4… Halo 5 was marked by 343i spending an enormous amount of time carefully tweaking and balancing sprint. The result has been a unique experience- Halo offers sprint in a way quite unlike other games with sprint. The developers have taken steps towards mitigating “cat and mouse,” games that resulted from the ability to recharge energy shields while sprinting… And unlike in COD you cannot sprint/shoot which sprint/no shoot is actually more realistic anyway for reasons that I’ve already covered in this thread (Plus it supports how the Spartans were actually trained to fire weapons in the first place).

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> 2535449890874046;11456:
> You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to fam.

You can just walk everywhere

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> 2535449890874046;11456:
> You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to fam.

Been debunked, multiple times. You’re punished for not sprinting.

11460

Although split settings or a classic playist which im all for if done properly sounds great on paper, what does this exactly mean for the maps ? If you were to drop a classic playlist in H5 right now it simply wouldn’t work with the way the dev made maps are designed around the new movement systems and abilities.

To be quite frank I’ve simply got no faith in 343 to deliver.

343 said have stated they couldn’t allocate the resources for BTB maps so how the hell will they manage it for a classic playlist as well as BTB. Im not trying to write the idea off, im just trying to be realsitic based on what 343 have stated and what we got from H5 with BTB which the community roundly rejected, should the fans who have been wanting for so long have to settle for forged maps ?

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> 2535449890874046;11456:
> You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to fam.

Go into a Halo 5 match and don’t sprint and then tell us how it went.

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> 2533274825830455;11379:
> In this situation you posed, it’s not practically possible to predict to any degree of accuracy that amounts to more than random guessing. The ultimate reason for that is that you have no real preference to put the candy under either cup that I could know about. But that’s besides the point. Let’s consider a different situation: we’re playing chess, and the situation is not a stalemate. Without needing to give any more information about the state of the game I claim: there is no way for you to know which move I’m going to make next. But somehow chess is still considered one of the most predictable and skill based games in history.
>
> The problem with your argument is the assumption that I need to be able to know. But I claim, if I was always able to know, the game would be uninteresting because the end result of the game would be determined at the start of the game. Games where either of the players can know what the other will do next are incredibly boring. Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games. After all, I don’t need to know what you will do to win. I just need to 1) be able to weigh the likelihoods of different outcomes, and 2) be prepared for when I inevitably predict wrong.
>
> Let’s go back to your candy cup game for a moment. From a design perspective, there are two inherent flaws in this game that make it shallow: 1) the choice of cup is entirely irrelevant to you, and therefore I never have more than a 50% chance of winning, i.e., my choices amount to total guessing; 2) when I inevitably make the wrong choice, I have no way of rectifying my error. Most games that people play seriously don’t have these problems. For example, in Halo, players tend to prefer certain routes on maps, and they can’t help it. If you play with one player enough, you can’t help but learn their habits, and be able to predict their choices in a way that amounts to more than blind guessing. Even players who you don’t know tend to make their choices in somewhat predictable ways, because not all choices are equally favorable to them. On the other hand, in Halo I can often rectify my errors. Say I miss a shot because you make a strafe that throws me off. I can still step up my game, try to be more accurate, predict better, and move more unpredictably to still get the kill. It’s not game over for me if I make the wrong prediction.
>
> However, as I have said, player generated randomness is completely essential. In fact, it’s inevitable. Any game where players are allowed to make choices, you can never know what a player will do. You can predict what they might do, but you can never know for sure. However, player generated randomness is also absolutely essential for competitive gameplay. If we have a game where all choices for both players are trivial, i.e., completely obvious, it’s not a game at all. It’s just two people mindlessly executing a series of deterministic instructions. There is no skill in it beacuse neither of the players needs to think what the other player will do.
>
> You do, however, raise a point which I intentionally passed over which was not relevant to my point: the right amount of player generated randomness has a delicate balance. Obviously, as you already concluded, if we turn the game into total guessing, there’s no skill in it. On the other hand, as I already concluded, if we make all choices completely trivial, there’s no skill in it either. This means that there is some point, some amount of player generated randomness, where letting players be any more unpredictable would be detrimental, but so would be making their decisions any more easily predictable. In other words, there’s some optimal amount of player generated randomness that we’d ideally want. Jokingly, you could say that the whole process of designing competitive games is a process of seeking this optimum.

See, in that candy cup game of mine the player who sets the candy and the cups is working as a Random number generator(I know there are no numbers but bear with me). The reason there is no way to predict anything is that the players don’t have any reasons or motives to go for a particular cup. Ofcourse, you already knew this.

So I’m saying that you and/or SiN SHOOT2KILL can’t just say that sprint adds depth to the game because it’s created by the players.

“Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games.” This is what we need to be talking about. What does predict mean? Because in the candy cup game, depending on the perspective, you could say that you need to predict what the other player might do or you might be forced to guess what the other player will do. The same can be said about sprint. Are you able to predict or are you forced to guess? How can you predict your opponents moves, when everyone has the ability to change their speed whenever they feel like it? Can it be done consistently? And is this subjective or can it be measured? I’m not asking you, but feel free to answer.

The tragedy behind sprints flow prediction is that while it makes flow prediction harder, it also makes it more random. There will be times where you’ll have your numbers down but that guy just happened to be there because there were so many options and routes he could take and to kill him you should have just gotten lucky like he did. I think that we should get rid of those free kills and deaths that sprint provides. It’s not like the flow of the PvP environment was obvious in any Halo ever.

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> 2535464451695009;11455:
> > 2625759425619671;11405:
> > > 2535464451695009;11381:
> > >
>
>
> 2) _F_ield _O_f _V_iew itself is not a problem, but speed perception is, and field of view can change at any time to improve a player’s perception of speed, thus improving a player’s perception of the game flow.
>
> 3) I’m saying that if they do increase the map sizes, what difference is there between Battlefield and Halo then for casual players?
>
> 4) Being buggy does not mean it detriments the game’s experience.

  1. The best way to solve the problem of a game playing slow is to find ways to make it play faster… I think this is best accomplished by ensuring that FOV is properly tweaked while keeping sprint in Halo. I’m not saying that “sprint makes Halo play faster,” however there’s still no reason to take out once FOV has been tweaked for optimal gameplay.

  2. Battlefield is not equal to Halo… Plus if all Halo does is dial up FOV to something like 120 (like in Battlefield) then that would be moving Halo closer to Battlefield anyway. Bigger maps in Halo doesn’t equate to Halo becoming Battlefield- Plus I didn’t suggest jumping from 24 to 64 as a player count in maps anyway… Just a slight increase in map size and player count is what I’m hoping for in the next Halo title which doesn’t have to equate to Battlefield-types of maps and player counts.

  3. Okay but the buggy aspects were just some of the problems cited by that source regarding trying to incorporate sprint as a power up in Halo. What about the reasoning from my points on why sprint being delivered as a power up is detrimental for Halo?