WE NEED SPRINT IT SPEEDS UP THE GAME
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> 2) You’ve said this before but maps don’t have to be wider to accommodate sprint. Many remade maps are very close in size to their predecessors on Halo 5 and any perceived “widening,” could be attributed to the fact that newer games are trying to expand the potential player count in those maps. There are other reasons why map sizes could be increased- besides maps don’t favor people that use sprint all the time.
>
> 3) I’m arguing that the slight increase in unpredictability is beneficial for gameplay because it adds a layer of skill to the game. I’m not arguing that tossing in random RNG is good for the game- I’m arguing that the difference between knowing where your opponent will spawn and then knowing how long it’ll take them to move from that spawn is slightly less predictable with sprint than without it. That unique subtly is what makes it beneficial for gameplay, not any perceived notion of “complete randomness” that you seem to have about this point
>
> 4) You can absolutely make pushes reliably in Halo 5. Winning games in Arena quite often comes down to the team making effective pushes to win games, but also boils down to map control, team shots, and shooting better than your opponents in 1v1 situations.
>
> 5) I’ve given multiple reasons why vehicles, man canons, teleporters, and temporary speed boosts are not an effective substitute for sprint. I was suggesting that not having sprint hurt the game play on those larger maps.
>
> 8) There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying
>
> 9) Again I’m going to receive this as a jab because you’re basically challenging my ability to understand how the game operates solely on the fact that I just disagree with you regarding one mechanic of the game. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable
>
> 12) It’s absolutely logical to assume that someone who likes sprint can care about the integrity of the game. In fact it’s illogical for you to claim the converse of that like you tried to do there
>
> 13) Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be
2.) Just look at Truth and Midship, maps that you can specifically see how sprint alone affects the map, given the deadspace and stretched flooring. It has nothing to do with “trying to expand the player count”, because the map’s BASED on 4v4 gameplay. It’s supposed to be premiere competitive material. It doesn’t need to be designed, or cater to more than a 4v4 scenario, and it’s wrong to say they don’t favor people who use sprint, because sprint, being as fast as a proper BMS, is normal navigation speed around these stretched maps and thus, those maps entirely favor consistent sprinters.
3.) How does unpredictability benefit the game in any way? Not being able to know and prepare for something doesn’t benefit anyone, because again, you can only deal with the element of unpredictability when you specifically cross that bridge, not beforehand, meaning all skill in map knowledge and movement is basically null. And again, sprint is much more than just lengthening the time in which you perform map navigation. As other sprint based maps show, the routes of engagement increase as well, meaning the player needs to account for many more possible confrontational routes/possibilities, which in some cases is impossible.
4.) You didn’t read what I said. I said enemy prediction is unreliable in Halo 5. I didn’t speak about pushes, or map control, although, those mean a lot less in a game where, if you die, you can just sprint back to where you died compared to past games, where losing your position was punished for. Also, lol “boils down to shooting better than your opponent in a 1v1”. Pretty sure that’s what any game with a PvP option’s boiled down to.
5.) Multiple incorrect reasons, sure. You get that teleporters and mancannons are static for a reason, right? It boils down to predictability and proper map flow/player distribution, not allowing players to chaotically just rush everywhere. And you also get that getting camped by your mancannons just shows a lack of proper map control and team comp, not an issue with map transport, right? Take Avalanche or Valhalla for example. The mancannons on those maps are super close to your base and well on your side of the map. If you’re getting camp killed by those… I honestly dunno what to say. The point remains, not having sprint didn’t impact the maps because the maps weren’t ever designed FOR sprint in the first place. There’s a difference in being a classic Halo BTB map, and a sprint Halo BTB map. I went about explaining that map design with classic Halo in depth, specifically in my last post.
6 & 7.) Yes, okay, now you know not everyone shares your viewpoint? And to that point, my point was on how your minority (Still considered as such) still doesn’t compare to the hundreds of thousands (Possibly in the millions, given the population we saw with Halo 3) who’ve left the most recent games and franchise as a whole, seemingly.
8.) If you’d read what I’ve said, I’ve implied that while I think Halo’s decline was caused by sprint, I do think other things contributed as well. Things that, like sprint, alienated longtime fans of the franchise. AAs, loadouts, SAs, etc.
9.) I’m challenging your ability to understand how the game works not due to a disagreement, but due to the constant vouching for sprint in spite of it offering nothing objectively positive compared to a BMS, on top of passing off facts of how both movement systems operate as “opinions”.
12.) I loved Halo 4’s loadouts to bits. But that was super detrimental to the game and the franchise, much like you and your friends and some people here like sprint in the most recent Halos. The difference here is being able to admit the issues the mechanic brings. 
Someone who likes sprint can entirely care for integrity. Someone who vouches for sprint actively, does not. I liked loadouts, but if I vouched for loadouts in Halo, exactly like Halo 4’s implementation, then I’d show I do not care about Halo’s actual gameplay integrity, because loadouts bring nothing but harm, even if they’re disguised as the illusion of choice and freedom.
13.) You realize that singular games like Doom and Overwatch stood out like Halo once used to without catering to a casual, wide audience, right? Even if briefly? The notion that Halo somehow just had a hard time standing out recently due to competition, especially given the franchise’s past, having successfully competed for three years straight (Halo 3’s lifespan) among multiple different CoD games and a Gears of War game, and raking in the viewership at MLG, among other competitors entirely goes against that. It wasn’t that Halo had a hard time standing out despite being this unique experience with its competitors or something, it was because it purposely homogenized itself with its competitors to attempt to leech off of their fanbases, when that’s short term thinking and obviously has had long lasting repercussions on the game’s population and popularity.
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> > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> > >
> > >
> > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> >
> >
> > To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.
>
>
> i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
They didn’t remove sprint from Halo 2, however… That’s why it’s still in the coding of the game. If they actually made a definitive decision to remove it then it would have been removed completely… To me that just screams the fact that they didn’t have enough time to finish implementing, tweaking, and balancing sprint like they would have needed to in order to properly execute it. The exact same issues happened with the Forerunner tank level (where the beginning of the level is still in the coding of the game) and the Flood Juggernaut- those things were planned to be in the game but weren’t fully executed in Halo 2 because of how rushed the development cycle was for Halo 2. They still made it into the coding of Halo 2 and can be accessed on Halo 2 PC just like sprint.
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> Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.
LOL, with cut content, that is NOT how it works. Nice try.
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> > >
> > >
> > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> >
> >
> > To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.
>
>
> i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
It wasn’t in h3 either after their attempt with H2. So when did reach come out? 2010? That’s 6 years of bungie trying to “develope” one mechanic and even then I say they added it more as a “-Yoink- you!” To the fan base since it was their last game anyways along with the other abominations in reach. It doesn’t take 6 years to get one mechanic to work, the assumption (as you said) is bungie didn’t think it worked until they decided why not with reach since they’d get no repercussions.
i have to LoL at these “sprint is needed for speed” comments above cause it’s not true. You people are ignorant, and oblivious to other games and how they’re designed if you truly think sprint makes a game faster.
[deleted]
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> > Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.
>
>
> LOL, with cut content, that is NOT how it works. Nice try.
It was there… In the coding- Sprint made it so far into Halo 2 it can even be easily be accessed and utilized on Halo 2 PC. That means it passed the planning phase and made it all the way to the final stages of development like the Flood Juggernaut and the Forerunner Tank level which both also made it all the way into the coding just like sprint. Those things were cut out at the very end of the planning only because there simply was not enough time to complete everything that Bungie had planned for Halo 2.
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> > >
> > >
> > > To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.
> >
> >
> > i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> > also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
>
>
> It wasn’t in h3 either after their attempt with H2. So when did reach come out? 2010? That’s 6 years of bungie trying to “develope” one mechanic and even then I say they added it more as a “-Yoink- you!” To the fan base since it was their last game anyways along with the other abominations in reach. It doesn’t take 6 years to get one mechanic to work, the assumption (as you said) is bungie didn’t think it worked until they decided why not with reach since they’d get no repercussions.
>
> i have to LoL at these “sprint is needed for speed” comments above cause it’s not true. You people are ignorant, and oblivious to other games and how they’re designed if you truly think sprint makes a game faster.
i just assume now you meant someone other than me because i never said anything like “sprint is needed for speed”. i also don’t see any argument in that “statement”. i also prefer the classic halo gameplay (don’t even play h5 anymore and my service record clearly shows which halos i played the most)
nonetheless i didn’t mind sprint in reach and i also don’t think it’s the biggest problem in h5. But i would love for it being removed again
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> > > Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.
> >
> >
> > LOL, with cut content, that is NOT how it works. Nice try.
>
>
> It was there… In the coding- and can easily be accessed on Halo 2 PC. That means it passed the planing phase and made it all the way to the final stages of development like the Flood Juggernaut and the Forerunner Tank level which both also made it all the way into the coding just like sprint.
I think he/she ment that it has been a part of Halo for 12 years a much as Halo has been an RTS for 15 years
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> > > Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.
> >
> >
> > LOL, with cut content, that is NOT how it works. Nice try.
>
>
> It was there… In the coding- and can easily be accessed on Halo 2 PC. That means it passed the planing phase and made it all the way to the final stages of development like the Flood Juggernaut and The Forerunner Tank level which both also made it all the way into the coding just like sprint.
That isn’t how it works at all. If sprint made it past planning, and was in the final stages of dev, it would’ve been in the game, because things like map design, based around sprint, and thus the inclusion of sprint couldn’t just be changed on a dime, and when you look at every map in Halo 2, you can clearly tell they’re not based around the sprint mechanic. Much like looking at H5 to H3, look at H2 to H3 with Midship and Heretic. Same map. Same movement speed. No sprint. Or Zanzibar and Last Resort. Pretty obvious that it was cut early on, much like Halo 5’s early commit to sprint, which would’ve had to be done in the case of how map design works.
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> I think he/she ment that it has been a part of Halo for 12 years a much as Halo has been an RTS for 15 years
I did, actually, yes. But the argument has now spiraled a little past that point.
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> > > Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.
> >
> >
> > LOL, with cut content, that is NOT how it works. Nice try.
>
>
> It was there… In the coding- Sprint made it so far into Halo 2 it can even be easily be accessed and utilized on Halo 2 PC. That means it passed the planning phase and made it all the way to the final stages of development like the Flood Juggernaut and the Forerunner Tank level which both also made it all the way into the coding just like sprint. Those things were cut out at the very end of the planning only because there simply was not enough time to complete everything that Bungie had planned for Halo 2.
You’re reaching, reach for the stars bro
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> > > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> >
> >
> > i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> > also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
>
>
> They didn’t remove sprint from Halo 2, however… That’s why it’s still in the coding of the game. If they actually made a definitive decision to remove it then it would have been removed completely… To me that just screams the fact that they didn’t have enough time to finish implementing, tweaking, and balancing sprint like they would have needed. The exact same issues happened with the Forerunner tank level (where the beginning of the level is still in the coding of the game) and the Flood Juggernaut- those things were planned to be in the game but weren’t fully executed in Halo 2 because of how rushed the development cycle was for Halo 2.
you often find stuff in game codes which was removed for various reasons. (i’m also not familiar with game development, but i assume why spend time and remove it from the code completely if it’s not in the way of anything else?)
but for the stuff not being in the followup game (in halos case halo 3) can be interpreted that it didn’t fit anymore. contentwise it could just not making sense anymore or there where new better ideas or followup ideas. gameplaywise it could be the same, but seeing that the halo 3 gameplay style was so similar to halo 2s (not the same, but similar) makes me assume, that they realy didn’t see sprint fit.
in halo reach i think they just tried out different stuff (maybe scraped ideas) because it’s kind of a spin off game (note: one of my favorite halos).
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> > > > > > This guy must have the advanced thrusters mod on. Dodging questions like a pro!
> > >
> > >
> > > What your thought process is, is A LOT different than the rest of us, even the other pro sprinters.
> >
> >
> > To the contrary, my thought process lines up pretty closely with Josh Holmes (343i Executive Producer) when he advocated for sprint here and here.
> >
> > I just want to seek a viable compromise, such as the potential for split settings/playlists in the next Halo game regarding sprint so that as many fans as possible will be satisfied with the game.
>
>
> 1) Your opinions are fine by me,
>
> 2) but the way you project some of those opinions to us come off as out of whack. Your other arguments are fine, but your FOV posts are some of the weakest arguments you’ve had.
>
> You repeatedly say you make a point about it, but all I see is a suggestion. To tsassi, you said it can be changed so sprint wouldn’t have to be removed, but never explain HOW it should be changed. To l Jinxed l, you did the same thing, but in a small section of a much bigger post. Should FOV be increased so that players feel faster or should it be decreased so that the difference between normal running and sprinting speed feels greater than it actually is?
>
> As for your counter against “sprint is unneeded/redundant”, with “FOV is loosely tied to sprint” is kind of weak. If something is related to percieved or actual movement speed, then it’s as related to sprint as base movement speed and map sizes are. If we have something that makes us feel like we’re moving fast, why do we need another thing that makes us move fast? That’s why they’re saying it’s redundant.
>
> 3) If the map sizes are good enough for normal speed, sprinting would ruin the map flow. If the movement speed is fast enough to make the map flow well, then sprint would ruin the current map flow.
>
> Remove sprint from Halo 5 and don’t change anything else, or don’t sprint at all in a few matches, and the game will feel very very slow and empty. Go into custom games and remove sprint and increase the movement speed and acceleration to match sprint and compensate for the lack of it, then the map flows just as well. It wouldn’t matter if the map was designed for sprint or not, because a slow movement speed with sprint is almost the same as a fast movement speed without sprint on the same map. But the thing is, you’re always moving fast in the latter option.
>
> 4) For me, I just want Armor Abilities to come back as map pickups so a thread this big hopefully doesn’t happen again. Sprint would still be in the game, but you’re gonna have to fight for it.
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Thank you and likewise
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That’s because I don’t believe that FOV is as closely correlated to sprint as some anti sprinters in this thread. For instance, Halo 3 was universally accepted to have had the worst FOV of the series and yet Halo 3 did not have sprint. I believe that altering FOV is technically a separate issue when compared to whether or not sprint should be kept in Halo. You could alter FOV and still have movement problems, with or without sprint (As evidenced by Halo 3). It’s actually understandable for you to claim that my “FOV arguments are the weakest,” among all my arguments because I don’t want to get into a separate off topic discussion about FOV when this thread is about sprint and its effects on Halo. I’m trying to tailor my arguments towards sprint, not FOV. The monitor asked me quite directly to discuss FOV/sprint so I discussed my thoughts on it but that response wasn’t intended to be a strong, front-runner argument as to why sprint should stay in Halo… My arguments on why sprint is good for Halo cover that aspect, not FOV arguments.
-
As far as map sizes go, I’d actually anticipate 343i to go bigger in the next Halo sequel. And they can accomplish bigger by increasing the player count and keeping sprint… No reason to go backwards by reducing map size- especially if the main argument to alter everything about the game like that to the point of moving backwards from the success found in Warzone would center around sprint (It would be entirely based upon trying to force out the sprint mechanic anyway under that logic).
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I don’t actually agree with sprint being a “pick up,” idea either… Just like in Halo 3, “sprint pick ups,” were so few and far between they didn’t offer sprint to the entire team. They only offered sprint to one member of the team at a time and it was limited, left an enormous trail behind the player to give away their position and path to the enemy, and they had a dreadfully long respawn timer.
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> > > > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.
> > >
> > >
> > > i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> > > also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
> >
> >
> > It wasn’t in h3 either after their attempt with H2. So when did reach come out? 2010? That’s 6 years of bungie trying to “develope” one mechanic and even then I say they added it more as a “-Yoink- you!” To the fan base since it was their last game anyways along with the other abominations in reach. It doesn’t take 6 years to get one mechanic to work, the assumption (as you said) is bungie didn’t think it worked until they decided why not with reach since they’d get no repercussions.
> >
> > i have to LoL at these “sprint is needed for speed” comments above cause it’s not true. You people are ignorant, and oblivious to other games and how they’re designed if you truly think sprint makes a game faster.
>
>
> i just assume now you meant someone other than me because i never said anything like “sprint is needed for speed”. i also don’t see any argument in that “statement”. i also prefer the classic halo gameplay (don’t even play h5 anymore and my service record clearly shows which halos i played the most)
> nonetheless i didn’t mind sprint in reach and i also don’t think it’s the biggest problem in h5. But i would love for it being removed again
The speed comment wasn’t directed at you but to the guys who said it above. The top paragraph was directed at you.
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> How can player generated randomness be predicted? You see I understand that flow prediction is a valuable skill and I know that flow is created by the players.
>
> But lets make a game. I have two cups and I will hide some candy under one of them. If you can guess which cup has the candy under it, you get to keep that candy. But if you guess wrong, you’ll have to give me all of your candy. There is no way for you to know which cup is the right one. But this is player generated randomness, right?
In this situation you posed, it’s not practically possible to predict to any degree of accuracy that amounts to more than random guessing. The ultimate reason for that is that you have no real preference to put the candy under either cup that I could know about. But that’s besides the point. Let’s consider a different situation: we’re playing chess, and the situation is not a stalemate. Without needing to give any more information about the state of the game I claim: there is no way for you to know which move I’m going to make next. But somehow chess is still considered one of the most predictable and skill based games in history.
The problem with your argument is the assumption that I need to be able to know. But I claim, if I was always able to know, the game would be uninteresting because the end result of the game would be determined at the start of the game. Games where either of the players can know what the other will do next are incredibly boring. Games where both players need to predict what the other player might do are the interesting games. After all, I don’t need to know what you will do to win. I just need to 1) be able to weigh the likelihoods of different outcomes, and 2) be prepared for when I inevitably predict wrong.
Let’s go back to your candy cup game for a moment. From a design perspective, there are two inherent flaws in this game that make it shallow: 1) the choice of cup is entirely irrelevant to you, and therefore I never have more than a 50% chance of winning, i.e., my choices amount to total guessing; 2) when I inevitably make the wrong choice, I have no way of rectifying my error. Most games that people play seriously don’t have these problems. For example, in Halo, players tend to prefer certain routes on maps, and they can’t help it. If you play with one player enough, you can’t help but learn their habits, and be able to predict their choices in a way that amounts to more than blind guessing. Even players who you don’t know tend to make their choices in somewhat predictable ways, because not all choices are equally favorable to them. On the other hand, in Halo I can often rectify my errors. Say I miss a shot because you make a strafe that throws me off. I can still step up my game, try to be more accurate, predict better, and move more unpredictably to still get the kill. It’s not game over for me if I make the wrong prediction.
However, as I have said, player generated randomness is completely essential. In fact, it’s inevitable. Any game where players are allowed to make choices, you can never know what a player will do. You can predict what they might do, but you can never know for sure. However, player generated randomness is also absolutely essential for competitive gameplay. If we have a game where all choices for both players are trivial, i.e., completely obvious, it’s not a game at all. It’s just two people mindlessly executing a series of deterministic instructions. There is no skill in it beacuse neither of the players needs to think what the other player will do.
You do, however, raise a point which I intentionally passed over which was not relevant to my point: the right amount of player generated randomness has a delicate balance. Obviously, as you already concluded, if we turn the game into total guessing, there’s no skill in it. On the other hand, as I already concluded, if we make all choices completely trivial, there’s no skill in it either. This means that there is some point, some amount of player generated randomness, where letting players be any more unpredictable would be detrimental, but so would be making their decisions any more easily predictable. In other words, there’s some optimal amount of player generated randomness that we’d ideally want. Jokingly, you could say that the whole process of designing competitive games is a process of seeking this optimum.
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> > > > > > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
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> > > > > > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > > > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
> > > > also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)
> > >
> > >
> > > It wasn’t in h3 either after their attempt with H2. So when did reach come out? 2010? That’s 6 years of bungie trying to “develope” one mechanic and even then I say they added it more as a “-Yoink- you!” To the fan base since it was their last game anyways along with the other abominations in reach. It doesn’t take 6 years to get one mechanic to work, the assumption (as you said) is bungie didn’t think it worked until they decided why not with reach since they’d get no repercussions.
> > > i have to LoL at these “sprint is needed for speed” comments above cause it’s not true. You people are ignorant, and oblivious to other games and how they’re designed if you truly think sprint makes a game faster.
> >
> >
> > i just assume now you meant someone other than me because i never said anything like “sprint is needed for speed”. i also don’t see any argument in that “statement”. i also prefer the classic halo gameplay (don’t even play h5 anymore and my service record clearly shows which halos i played the most)
> > nonetheless i didn’t mind sprint in reach and i also don’t think it’s the biggest problem in h5. But i would love for it being removed again
>
>
> The speed comment wasn’t directed at you but to the guys who said it above. The top paragraph was directed at you.
ok. yeah i do agree that they would have implemented it in halo 3 if the only problem with it in halo 2 was time constraints. reach is a spin off game where they tried out many things. things that where thought of but not implemented in the other games for whatever reasons (in case of sprint i do think the reason is, that it didn’t fit)
but i still liked reach very much and don’t see it as an “abomination” (that would be h5 if you will so)
and my problems with “modern halos” are way more than just sprint
[deleted]
Yeaaah. more or less.
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> I cannot believe this is a real topic
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> It disgusts me and its embarrassing. 343 finally brought halo into the modern era of multiplayer gaming by adding sprint and people are complaining?
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> Sprint should definitely have been in halo reach not as an armor ability but as a tool available to everyone
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> if they removed sprint for halo 6 i would not buy it guaranteed its too much of a step back
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> moving around at snails pace is not fun the game becomes way too slow and in a game mode like warzone it will take 5 minutes to get across the map unless u have a vehicle
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> KEEP SPRINT AND PLEASE KILL THIS THREAD
We don’t need you to buy Halo 6, go play CoD if you want sprint so bad. If 343i finally removes sprint, more people would come back to Halo. This new Halo community is small anyways compared to Halo 2 and 3s.