The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
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> > > I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.
> > >
> > > I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.
> > >
> > > Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.
> >
> >
> > Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).
>
>
> Why wouldn’t someone sprint to the sniper all the time from the start?
> “Be more unpredictable in terms of time”?
> What prevented anyone in Halo 2 from stopping now and then or move below highest BMS in order to achieve the same result?

Because that “someone” could pick between walking or sprinting… And at least with sprint they could
zig zag away from random grenade tosses and escape the intial “ambush,” traps that teams set for people. If you spawned underneath the sniper ramp for instance, you wouldn’t have to make an all-out sprinting dash for it. Would a lot of people do that? Probably but not everyone would be as wholly predictable in their movement speed towards weapons like that as they were with one BMS. That’s why I’ve been saying it’s “slightly less random,” which is better and more challenging for gameplay than it being 100% predictable.

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> Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).

As these things tend to go, many people probablt have taken the abbreviation to refer to anything that has an element of randomness, and while I’m no one to dictate how people should speak, I don’t think it’s good practice to use it that way for the reasons outlined in my posts. Besides, words have a habit of losing their meaning when used too liberally. I’m an advocate of the “player generated” vs. “game generated” distinction because the former is beneficial, and in fact necessary, for a meaningful multiplayer experience, while the latter is almost always detrimental.

But beyond that, I’m not making an argument against you here. As I said, I don’t think “it adds randomness” is a valid argument against sprint.

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> Can you honestly number your replies? Your responses are all over the place
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> 8) There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying
>
> 9) Halo 3 was hardly “smooth” either for a number of reasons that I just stated. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable
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> 13) Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be

  1. But cutting sprint would lead to mass exodus from Halo. That wouldn’t count as a Double standard? Yes, you’ve said it before taht cutting sprint would cause players to leave.

  2. Halo 3 was “playable” with standard speed. Perhaps you could read the reason for the tweaks they made? I did link to it.

  3. Harder for one game to stand out. CoD. Sure. There was competition back then as well.

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> > Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).
>
>
> As these things tend to go, many people probablt have taken the abbreviation to refer to anything that has an element of randomness, and while I’m no one to dictate how people should speak, I don’t think it’s good practice to use it that way for the reasons outlined in my posts. Besides, words have a habit of losing their meaning when used too liberally. I’m an advocate of the “player generated” vs. “game generated” distinction because the former is beneficial, and in fact necessary, for a meaningful multiplayer experience, while the latter is almost always detrimental.

Couldn’t agree with you more… I’ve honestly thought about that myself in the past, but I’ve watched so many Twichers and Youtoubers toss it around like slang I guess it’s sort of started to stick with me too… Doesn’t make it right for me to use it incorrectly and it even appeared to cause some confusion in part because “RNG,” isn’t a universally recognized thing in gaming for the reasons you mentioned. I do actually agree with your point on this and will try to refrain from using incorrect terminology such as that.

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> > 8) There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying
> >
> > 9) Halo 3 was hardly “smooth” either for a number of reasons that I just stated. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable
> >
> > 13) Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be
>
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> 8) But cutting sprint would lead to mass exodus from Halo. Double standard. Yes, you’ve said it before.
>
> 9) Halo 3 was “playable” with standard speed. Perhaps you could read the reason for the tweaks they made? I did link to it.
>
> 13) Harder for one game to stand out. CoD. Sure. There was competition back then as well.

Why are you even responding for someone else before they can respond? I’m not trying to nullify your response with that, but you literally skimmed through and picked 3 things “off the top,” for you to focus on before Exuberant Umbra even had a chance to reply to the counters that were meant for that person.

Either way:

  1. No that’s hardly a double standard. I implied that cutting sprint could lead to a mass exodus in the next Halo game but two wrongs wouldn’t make a right anyway. If you’re trying to affirm that adding sprint 3 AAA Halo titles ago 6 years back drove people away then the answer wouldn’t be to take it back out in the next Halo title just to drive more people away from Halo (What you’re implying is actually illogical in that sense and I don’t mean to be rude about that at all). It’s like trying to fight fire :fire: with fire :fire: Either way- me wanting what’s best for Halo and it’s fans in the next Halo game is hardly any sort of “double standard,” as you’re directly suggesting there.

  2. Whatever reasoning you may have linked, the fact remains that Halo 3 wasn’t as “smooth,” as Exuberant Umbra was suggesting. The MLG community did have to tweak BMS by increasing it by 10% to make it playable. So that entire point that I made for Exuberant Umbra still stands because Halo 3 wasn’t completely “smooth,” as their point stated (This counter to that point wasn’t about your previous post which was a separate issue anyway)

  3. CoD, sure- but there wasn’t anywhere nearly as much pressure from all the additional FPS titles, along with added pressure from various other types of games and console exclusive titles. Point is the market is much more saturated today for one title to stand out than it was during the CE/2 days when XBL was just getting started.

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I can’t believe people re still talking about sprint…I’m not sure this is the main reason this game sucks…

This game died shortly after it was released for the following raisins:
1./ The campaign was a repeat of the same bad guy over and over again - boring
2./ The new Warzone gametype and req system didnt match core halo gameplay - Ie arena. It instead introduced a boring, long winded (albeit different) cog into the franchise and was too large a focus from the get go
3./ Arena had too few gametypes, most of which were unplayable if you preferred straight out slayer. So playability dwindled.
4./ The maps are the same… we were promised new maps…“WAIT” we thought, “FREE MA…oh wait - they’re the same map but poorly tweaked into a less enjoyable version that I now have to play over and over”.
5./ People wanted to basically play a halo 2 or 3 remaster…BECAUSE THE MASTERCHIEF COLLECTION WAS A RIP OFF AND WAS NEVER PROPERLY FIXED
6./ Oh yeah…and sprint changed the game…but why the hell you should flinch out of sprint (unless you’re at full speed and ready for a tackle that does little damage and has a large recovery time) I will never know…the whole mechanic was overthough

Basically the franchise changed for the worse. Masterchief was milked for all he had and now has nothing to offer.
This game is garbage for all the above reasons (alongside halo 4).

I haven’t played halo 5 in months

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> > > 8) There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying
> > >
> > > 9) Halo 3 was hardly “smooth” either for a number of reasons that I just stated. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable
> > >
> > > 13) Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be
> >
> >
> > 8) But cutting sprint would lead to mass exodus from Halo. Double standard. Yes, you’ve said it before.
> >
> > 9) Halo 3 was “playable” with standard speed. Perhaps you could read the reason for the tweaks they made? I did link to it.
> >
> > 13) Harder for one game to stand out. CoD. Sure. There was competition back then as well.
>
>
> Why are you even responding for someone else before they can respond? I’m not trying to nullify your response with that, but you literally skimmed through and picked 3 things “off the top,” for you to focus on before Exuberant Umbra even had a chance to reply to the counters that were meant for that person.
>
> Either way,
>
> 8) No that’s hardly a double standard. I implied that cutting sprint could lead to a mass exodus in the next Halo game but two wrongs wouldn’t make a right anyway. If you’re trying to affirm that adding sprint 3 AAA Halo titles ago 6 years back drove people away so the answer would be to take it back out in the next Halo title just to drive more people away from Halo then what you’re implying is illogical. It’s like trying to fight fire :fire: with fire :fire: Either way way me wanting what’s best for Halo and it’s fans in the next Halo game is hardly any sort of “double standard,” as you’re directly implying there.
>
> 9) Whatever reasoning you may have linked, the fact remains that Halo 3 wasn’t as “smooth,” as Exuberant Umbra was suggesting. The MLG community did have to tweak BMS by increasing it by 10% to make it playable. So that entire point still stands.
>
> 13) CoD, sure- but there wasn’t anywhere nearly as much pressure from all the additional FPS titles, along with added pressure from various other types of games and console exclusive titles. Point is the market is much more saturated today for one title to stand out than it was during the CE/2 days when XBL was just getting started.

It’s a forum, I can answer whatever I want whenever I want to. Perhaps I felt like the other points are you two bickering, some points are being taken care of by tsassi, rng stuff, and some too hefty to take up on the phone.

  1. No, I’m questioning the claim that sprint wasn’t the sole purpose of players leaving but cutting sprint would be.

  2. So MLGs reasoning isn’t good enough? How was it not playable?

  3. Halo 2 launched two years after XBL started. There were plenty of games launching back then as well.

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I like having sprint

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> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 8) There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying
> > > >
> > > > 9) Halo 3 was hardly “smooth” either for a number of reasons that I just stated. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable
> > > >
> > > > 13) Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be
> > >
> > >
> > > 8) But cutting sprint would lead to mass exodus from Halo. Double standard. Yes, you’ve said it before.
> > >
> > > 9) Halo 3 was “playable” with standard speed. Perhaps you could read the reason for the tweaks they made? I did link to it.
> > >
> > > 13) Harder for one game to stand out. CoD. Sure. There was competition back then as well.
> >
> >
> > Why are you even responding for someone else before they can respond? I’m not trying to nullify your response with that, but you literally skimmed through and picked 3 things “off the top,” for you to focus on before Exuberant Umbra even had a chance to reply to the counters that were meant for that person.
> >
> > Either way,
> >
> > 8) No that’s hardly a double standard. I implied that cutting sprint could lead to a mass exodus in the next Halo game but two wrongs wouldn’t make a right anyway. If you’re trying to affirm that adding sprint 3 AAA Halo titles ago 6 years back drove people away so the answer would be to take it back out in the next Halo title just to drive more people away from Halo then what you’re implying is illogical. It’s like trying to fight fire :fire: with fire :fire: Either way way me wanting what’s best for Halo and it’s fans in the next Halo game is hardly any sort of “double standard,” as you’re directly implying there.
> >
> > 9) Whatever reasoning you may have linked, the fact remains that Halo 3 wasn’t as “smooth,” as Exuberant Umbra was suggesting. The MLG community did have to tweak BMS by increasing it by 10% to make it playable. So that entire point still stands.
> >
> > 13) CoD, sure- but there wasn’t anywhere nearly as much pressure from all the additional FPS titles, along with added pressure from various other types of games and console exclusive titles. Point is the market is much more saturated today for one title to stand out than it was during the CE/2 days when XBL was just getting started.
>
>
> It’s a forum, I can answer whatever I want whenever I want to. Perhaps I felt like the other points are you two bickering, some points are being taken care of by tsassi, rng stuff, and some too hefty to take up on the phone.
>
> 8) No, I’m questioning the claim that sprint wasn’t the sole purpose of players leaving but cutting sprint would be.
>
> 9) So MLGs reasoning isn’t good enough? How was it not playable?
>
> 13) Halo 2 launched two years after XBL started. There were plenty of games launching back then as well.

Woah there big guy, I’m not telling you where you can or cannot post. I was just trying to keeps things in perspective that the reply and all the counter arguments therein were intended for Exuberant Umbra who hasn’t yet gotten an opportunity to reply themself before you stepped in. That doesn’t mean anyone told you that you can’t post. Along those lines, I also still responded to you, didn’t I?

  1. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. What I said about cutting sprint now driving away players from Halo is in no way different than what anti sprinters have said that adding sprint did 6 years ago, 3 AAA Halo titles back… My reply to you is therefore the same as it was from my previous post.

  2. It really just seems that you’re trying to bait me into engaging with you on your separate issue by loosely tying it to this point… Not really sure why else you’d keep trying to come back to this point that was somewhat similar to the other issue from your previous post.

-I just cited one reason why Halo 3 wasn’t smooth- which was the need for the MLG community to tweak the default settings.

-There were also the near universally accepted bad map designs- particularly on BTB maps.

-There were also the incredible long respawn timers on everything in the game.

-There were also the FOV issues that everyone keeps citing (yet fails to acknowledge that Halo 3 didn’t have sprint yet had FOV issues- another reason why adjusting FOV doesn’t have to correlate to sprint issues).

-There was the “leading shots” with projectiles thing that a lot of people didn’t like; man there were so many reasons why Halo 3 just wasn’t as “smooth,” as Exuberant Umbra claimed in their previous post.

It’s like Exuberant Umbra was suggesting “Just because 1-3 didn’t have sprint they were completely smooth and perfect!” Which is illogical when you stop to think about each of the issues that those games actually did have at the time of their release (like the rampant, unstoppable cheating on Halo 2 over XBL).

  1. And yet Halo 2 still set the standard for all FPS’ to follow on XBL. This is an interesting clip to watch to listen to Frankie explain how Halo 2 did this for XBL (such as at 18:18 in the video). There was also a really good Sprint episode (no pun intended) where Max Hoberman really got into the nitty gritty of how Halo 2 set the standard for multiplayer skill-based matching and things like that. Speaking of sprint however, did you know it was actually planned by Bungie as early as Halo 2??? Sprint was literally in the coding for Halo 2, so it’s not like Reach was the first Halo to technically have “sprint,” either.
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I agree that over saturation is a big problem but its a problem thats only compounded further by 343 and to an extent Microsoft with their decisions both in development and release.

Why borrow and add mechanics from a multitude of other games at the expense of core mechanics that made your game such a resounding hit to begin with ? In doing so you saturate your own product and essentially become another face in the crowd rather than standing out from it. Look at the hype for MWR and BF1 its rather telling about the current climate in gaming right now and what people want.

The holiday release doesn’t help, they couldn’t pick a worse slot than October with COD being released a month later. When H5 released, CoD, Battlefront and R6S were all due not long after and TTK released the month prior. The game was clearly not finished and was lacking franchise staple modes/playlists and basic features, if it was delayed till March 2016 not only would the game have been in a far better state at launch but the only competetition on the horizon was Doom, Battleborn and Overwatch two of which were new IP’s with one being completely dead on arrival and a game trying to re-establish itself on the market but never being particularly known for its multiplayer component anyway.

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> 1) I agree that over saturation is a big problem but its a problem thats only compounded further by 343 and to an extent Microsoft with their decisions both in development and release.
>
> 2) Why borrow and add mechanics from a multitude of other games at the expense of core mechanics that made your game such a resounding hit to begin with ? In doing so you saturate your own product and essentially become another face in the crowd rather than standing out from it. Look at the hype for MWR and BF1 its rather telling about the current climate in gaming right now and what people want.
>
> 3) The holiday release doesn’t help, they couldn’t pick a worse slot than October with COD being released a month later. When H5 released, CoD, Battlefront and R6S were all due not long after and TTK released the month prior. The game was clearly not finished and was lacking franchise staple modes/playlists and basic features, if it was delayed till March 2016 not only would the game have been in a far better state at launch but the only competetition on the horizon was Doom, Battleborn and Overwatch two of which were new IP’s with one being completely dead on arrival and a game trying to re-establish itself on the market but never being particularly known for its multiplayer component anyway.

  1. Agreed on both sides then.

  2. Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.

  3. Uhm… Okay the Holiday release window agreeably sucks… Not much else to say on that end but you raised some interesting thoughts on the subject.

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> 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.

at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay

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> > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
>
>
> at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay

I believe there wasn’t ever an official word from Bungie on why it was cut, albeit that’s a decent enough assumption. Point was that sprint was actually a part of Halo 2’s coding so we know Bungie had developed sprint for Halo as far back as Halo 2. And Bungie eventually came back to add sprint into Halo Reach anyway; just as they had always planned for Halo.

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> > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> >
> >
> > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
>
>
> I believe there wasn’t ever an official word from Bungie on why it was cut, albeit that’s a decent enough assumption. Point was that sprint was actually a part of Halo 2’s coding so we know Bungie had developed sprint for Halo as far back as Halo 2.

it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)

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> > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> >
> >
> > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
>
>
> I believe there wasn’t ever an official word from Bungie on why it was cut, albeit that’s a decent enough assumption. Point was that sprint added into Halo 2’s coding so we know Bungie had developed sprint for Halo as far back as Halo 2.

Im not sure its even relevant tbh bungie didn’t add it in the final build for whatever reason and they didn’t feel the need to add it for H3 or even ODST where it might have actually made sense to have it in, take from that what you will.

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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > >
> > >
> > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> >
> >
> > I believe there wasn’t ever an official word from Bungie on why it was cut, albeit that’s a decent enough assumption. Point was that sprint was actually a part of Halo 2’s coding so we know Bungie had developed sprint for Halo as far back as Halo 2.
>
>
> it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)

To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach. Either way sprint has technically been a part of Halo for over 12 years now versus the 6 just counting Halo Reach.

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> > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
>
>
> I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.
>
> I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.
>
> Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.

How can player generated randomness be predicted? You see I understand that flow prediction is a valuable skill and I know that flow is created by the players.

But lets make a game. I have two cups and I will hide some candy under one of them. If you can guess which cup has the candy under it, you get to keep that candy. But if you guess wrong, you’ll have to give me all of your candy. There is no way for you to know which cup is the right one. But this is player generated randomness, right?

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> > 2625759425619671;11342:
> > > 2533274825830455;11340:
> > > > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > > > It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
> > >
> > >
> > > I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.
> > >
> > > I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.
> > >
> > > Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.
> >
> >
> > Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).
>
>
> Why wouldn’t someone sprint to the sniper all the time from the start?
> “Be more unpredictable in terms of time”?
> What prevented anyone in Halo 2 from stopping now and then or move below highest BMS in order to achieve the same result?

Nobody just “stops,” in Halo. Like they say in the real military, “complacency kills.” Players are going to be proactively moving around the map for nearly the entire match. When players get to pick between two separate movement speeds it randomizes the speed in which they may traverse around the map. The point still stands…

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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Sprint wasn’t borrowed from anywhere. Bungie incorporated sprint into Halo as far back as Halo 2.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > at the time of halo 2 other games with sprint where already out (CoD United offensive for example).
> > > > and it was cut from halo 2 because it didn’t fit the halo style gameplay
> >
> >
> > it’s true they developed sprint for halo 2 and to me thats one of the best anti sprint arguments. they tried it, it didn’t fit , they removed it again (you’re right, i’m assuming this, but it makes sense to me. maybe someone has a source?)
>
>
> To me it just means that sprint was planned and developed to be a part of Halo as far back as 2004 with Halo 2. That’s not a phenomenal "anti sprint argument,"especially if it made it as far as to the actually coding of the game. It could have just as easily been a matter of not having enough time to polish it due to the rushed development cycle… When they had a few more years to refine sprint they executed their plan to add sprint to Halo with Halo Reach.

i heard somewhere (i don’t know the source anymore) that it was scraped early in development (so there would have been plenty time to implement it). to me that sounds like they looked how it would fit and decided to remove it because it didn’t fit. i think many games try things out and remove them again because they didn’t fit. so thats why i think it’s a good anti sprint argument, because it was tried by the developers and they didn’t saw it fit.
also note i’m not completely against sprint. i think it was implemented well in reach. and sprint isn’t the main thing i don’t like about h5. there are plenty more things (ADS, Microtransactions…)

11363

I cannot believe this is a real topic

It disgusts me and its embarrassing. 343 finally brought halo into the modern era of multiplayer gaming by adding sprint and people are complaining?

Sprint should definitely have been in halo reach not as an armor ability but as a tool available to everyone

if they removed sprint for halo 6 i would not buy it guaranteed its too much of a step back

moving around at snails pace is not fun the game becomes way too slow and in a game mode like warzone it will take 5 minutes to get across the map unless u have a vehicle

KEEP SPRINT AND PLEASE KILL THIS THREAD