The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
11324

> 2533274921982810;11323:
> > 2625759425619671;11320:
> > > 2533274921982810;11316:
> > > > 2625759425619671;11298:
> > > > > 2535464451695009;11296:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;11295:
> > > > > > > 2535464451695009;11294:
> > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11290:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;11287:
> > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11270:
> > > > > > > > > > Omg don’t even- opening up an argument with “people who lack knowledge always…” is a jab anyway you want to look at that statement. You just disagree with that because you’re antisprint so it makes sense for you that someone who disagrees would “lack knowledge,” but that statement was indeed a jab, any way you want to try to cut the cake now. Altering FOV simply has nothing to do with whether or not sprint should stay so I couldn’t disagree more with you there.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can look at it as a jab all you want, but if you boil it down to its entire base meaning rather than a small (sometimes) out of context snippet of the comment, it’s far from it. Has nothing to do with my viewpoint on anti-sprint. Bar that point, you can disagree, but again, it shows a lack of understanding for what a wider FoV does for player perception. Take some time and talk to hardcore PC players about FoV. Or talk to hardcore CE players, given they’re closer to what we speak of (I know a few if you need references).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yeah well you seem to disagree on me on just about everything I say in this thread… Even when I posted evidence to support that plasma pistols can kill people in game to counter a point when someone said that “you can’t get kills with plasma pistols,” as a way for them to try to counter the lore element of why sprint should stay… You kept on and kept on arguing against that long after that person conceded and basically said “yeah my fault maybe plasma pistol kills weren’t the best example.” Pretty sure that person would have been a lot more heated if I tried to just open with “you lack knowledge…” versus just posting evidence that plasma pistols can actually kill people in game. They didn’t have an issue with me for that because what I did was counter the point, not try to discredit the person.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Either way you can’t open a counter argument with “You lack knowledge because you always…” without sending a jab with that statement. Especially when my original point they tried to counter with that statement showed that I do have knowledge about FOV in Halo. I can only assume you’re disagreeing with the obvious fact that that’s a jab because you’ve disagreed with just about everything that I have said in this thread up to this point.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You’re letting your emotions get in the way again. What they said (“people who lack knowledge always underestimate”) wasn’t directed at you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There’s nothing “emotion[al],” about the problem with that… The problem is that opening up a counter argument with “you lack knowledge because you always…” is that the person was attempting to discredit me instead of my points about FOV. That’s not an effective (or constructive) method of debating. The fact that it was also a jab was just a secondary problem anyway… Jabs can happen in debates, sure- but not as a way to open up a counter argument like that.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now you’re just being willfully ignorant, not only are you misquoting what he said you weren’t even quoted in the post.
>
>
> He quoted exuberant umbra who had quoted you and said “people” but you are insistent that he directly aimed that commen at you, a comment which he gives plenty of valid reasons why some “PEOPLE” do lack knowledge and undervalue the effects of FOV. You’ve been told this already but still you keep miss quoting with “you” when it wasn’ that at all so yeah willfully ignorant.

No all Exuberant has done after the fact was try to paint that original post to appear more neutral. There was no misquoting going on, the comment was a counter argument to my original point on FOV as you can clearly see in that original post. Either way I accurately quoted that person and linked their original post. Even if the context was different as you suggested here, I still accurately quoted that person.

11325

[deleted]

11326

> 2625759425619671;11324:
> > 2533274921982810;11323:
> > > 2625759425619671;11320:
> > > > 2533274921982810;11316:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;11298:
> > > > > > 2535464451695009;11296:
> > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11295:
> > > > > > > > 2535464451695009;11294:
> > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11290:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;11287:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11270:
> > > > > > > > > > > Omg don’t even- opening up an argument with “people who lack knowledge always…” is a jab anyway you want to look at that statement. You just disagree with that because you’re antisprint so it makes sense for you that someone who disagrees would “lack knowledge,” but that statement was indeed a jab, any way you want to try to cut the cake now. Altering FOV simply has nothing to do with whether or not sprint should stay so I couldn’t disagree more with you there.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You can look at it as a jab all you want, but if you boil it down to its entire base meaning rather than a small (sometimes) out of context snippet of the comment, it’s far from it. Has nothing to do with my viewpoint on anti-sprint. Bar that point, you can disagree, but again, it shows a lack of understanding for what a wider FoV does for player perception. Take some time and talk to hardcore PC players about FoV. Or talk to hardcore CE players, given they’re closer to what we speak of (I know a few if you need references).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yeah well you seem to disagree on me on just about everything I say in this thread… Even when I posted evidence to support that plasma pistols can kill people in game to counter a point when someone said that “you can’t get kills with plasma pistols,” as a way for them to try to counter the lore element of why sprint should stay… You kept on and kept on arguing against that long after that person conceded and basically said “yeah my fault maybe plasma pistol kills weren’t the best example.” Pretty sure that person would have been a lot more heated if I tried to just open with “you lack knowledge…” versus just posting evidence that plasma pistols can actually kill people in game. They didn’t have an issue with me for that because what I did was counter the point, not try to discredit the person.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Either way you can’t open a counter argument with “You lack knowledge because you always…” without sending a jab with that statement. Especially when my original point they tried to counter with that statement showed that I do have knowledge about FOV in Halo. I can only assume you’re disagreeing with the obvious fact that that’s a jab because you’ve disagreed with just about everything that I have said in this thread up to this point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You’re letting your emotions get in the way again. What they said (“people who lack knowledge always underestimate”) wasn’t directed at you.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There’s nothing “emotion[al],” about the problem with that… The problem is that opening up a counter argument with “you lack knowledge because you always…” is that the person was attempting to discredit me instead of my points about FOV. That’s not an effective (or constructive) method of debating. The fact that it was also a jab was just a secondary problem anyway… Jabs can happen in debates, sure- but not as a way to open up a counter argument like that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Now you’re just being willfully ignorant, not only are you misquoting what he said you weren’t even quoted in the post.
> >
> >
> > He quoted exuberant umbra who had quoted you and said “people” but you are insistent that he directly aimed that commen at you, a comment which he gives plenty of valid reasons why some “PEOPLE” do lack knowledge and undervalue the effects of FOV. You’ve been told this already but still you keep miss quoting with “you” when it wasn’ that at all so yeah willfully ignorant.
>
>
> No all Exuberant has done after the fact was try to paint that original comment to look more neutral. There was no misquoting going on, the comment was a counter argument to my original point on FOV.

Ok whatever. Did you see my post regarding FOV ?

11327

> 2535464451695009;11325:
> > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > > 2533274886529017;11318:
> > > > 2625759425619671;11308:
> > > > This guy must have the advanced thrusters mod on. Dodging questions like a pro!
> > >
> > >
> > > Jebuuuuuz. Okay, Sean the Neighborhood Savage, let’s calm down. xP
> >
> >
> > I never said that
>
>
> If you read the other person that quoted you, Umbra did a misquote and deleted the other person’s box on accident. The quote boxes on these forums suck.
>
> So you can twist our words and implicitly misquote us, but we can’t have a single error in our posts or else it’s “misquoting and twisting words”? No one misquoted you before. What your thought process is, is A LOT different than the rest of us, even the other pro sprinters.

Okay after I went back and sifted through I see how such a mistake could have been made (And fixed/redacted that reply to Umbra)… But if that genuinely was a mistake then it was a mistake… (It was still misquoting me, which was been done by multiple people in this thread)

BTW if I make an error quoting someone then I’ll be happy to go back and fix it- I try very hard to afford that common courtesy to others. There’s also a difference between a mistake in quoting someone or to paraphrase and/or change that person’s point entirely when “quoting,” to make it appear that they meant something entirely different than their original point.

Either way can we just get back to this topic please now? I want sprint to stay and think it’s good for Halo.

11328

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2535464451695009;11325:
> > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > > 2533274886529017;11318:
> > > > 2625759425619671;11308:
> > > > This guy must have the advanced thrusters mod on. Dodging questions like a pro!
>
>
> What your thought process is, is A LOT different than the rest of us, even the other pro sprinters.

To the contrary, my thought process lines up pretty closely with Josh Holmes (343i Executive Producer) when he advocated for sprint here and here.
My original points (which were greatly expanded upon and have since evolved during this debate) revolved around: Immersion, Lore, Predictive Combat, Player Expectations (break due to character limit), Give the majority of fans what they want in Halo, and Past Precedence.
Those points above happen to have inadvertently aligned pretty closely with 343i’s Executive Producer when he advocated for sprint in Halo which I adequately explained here. So my thought process isn’t so far off from other fellow pro sprinters.
Whether or not anti sprinters have agreed with those points is another story (And the reason that all those points have have debated back and forth as long as they have been here in this thread).
Plus, anti sprinters are the ones who actually resorted to using smurf accounts to try and flame/flame bait in this thread and yet I’ve remained completely consistent and open minded throughout this debate. I’m not trying to either: force my opinions down people’s throats or to “hammer my footnote opinions,” into people like some anti sprinters do in this topic. That’s the source of any sort of “heated arguments,” which for me only seems to happen on the multiple occasions where anti sprinters have tried to tell me that my opinions are wrong on the basis that their opinions are right/fact.
I just want to seek a viable compromise, such as the potential for split settings/playlists in the next Halo game regarding sprint so that as many fans as possible will be satisfied with the game.

11329

Just dug up the second version of the Halo 3 MLG settings.

Link.

Changelog regarding the 10% increase in movement speed.

To speed up the gameplay and make targets harder to hit due to faster strafing.

Let’s assume then.
Halo 3 had the gameplay speed Bungie wanted it to have, introducing sprint during development would then have resulted in a Sprint Halo 3 with pretty much the same gameplay speed as the Halo 3 we ended up with. No? /assumption

Second, sprint could not accomplish the second part of why the BMS was incresed.

Worth noting, shield recharge rate decreased in order to increase the pacing.

11330

> 2625759425619671;11314:
> My point was just that sprint doesn’t have to be tied to adjusting FOV. If FOV is adjusted in the next Halo title then sprint doesn’t have to be dropped…
>
> I believe you’ve seen my previous points regarding why I’m pro sprint, which coincide with Josh Holmes (343i Executive Producer) and his advocating for sprint in Halo. I’ll be happy to link or summarize those again for you if you wish?
>
> -I agreed with Josh Holmes regarding an article that cited his advocating for sprint in Halo in this previous post.
>
> -Here’s an IGN thread where Josh Holmes further expands on sprint’s positive effects on Halo.
>
> -Here are multiple points that I’ve provided why I think sprint is good for Halo (I realize that my opinions in those points were just that, but those are all reasons why I think sprint is good for Halo. My original points which were greatly expanded and have since evolved due to this debate were: Immersion, Lore, Predictive Combat, Player Expectations, Give the majority of fans what they want in Halo, and Past Precedence. Those aren’t all the points that I’ve argued when advocating for sprint but those are the areas where I began in this thread).
>
> -Here is the evolution of many of those points; including counters from someone against sprint.
>
> -Here are some more personal reasons why I want sprint to stay in Halo; along with me asking several dozen friends on XBL about their feelings on sprint in Halo.
>
> I want to apologize if linking those posts isn’t appreciated by anyone. Fact is that I really cannot fit all of those things into one post; nor do I want to be redundant and repeat things that we’ve already discussed.

Could you guide me to Josh Holmes’ elaboration in that IGN thread, because all I can see is the OP copying the same old TeamBeyond post that the article also cites (and by the way, for sake of keeping to original sources, this is probably the link you should use to cite and not some article or an IGN discussion thread).

But really, this isn’t what I wanted. I don’t gain any understanding from something Josh Holmes has said or something you have said in some other context regarding what you think sprint has to offer that a higher FoV doesn’t. All those links give me is the “what sprint has to offer” part. They say nothing about the “that a higher FoV doesn’t” part.

Also, to clarify, when discussing FoV it should be clear that we’re only limiting the discussion to the immersion side of things because FoV has little overlap with sprint in terms of effects on gameplay, and it is entirely unrelated to any points about lore. So, let me rephrase the question: what aspects of sprint make it more immersive than a high FoV with the appropriate audiovisual effects when running for extended periods of time?

11331

> 2533274825830455;11330:
> > 2625759425619671;11314:
> > My point was just that sprint doesn’t have to be tied to adjusting FOV. If FOV is adjusted in the next Halo title then sprint doesn’t have to be dropped…
> >
> > I believe you’ve seen my previous points regarding why I’m pro sprint, which coincide with Josh Holmes (343i Executive Producer) and his advocating for sprint in Halo. I’ll be happy to link or summarize those again for you if you wish?
> >
> > -I agreed with Josh Holmes regarding an article that cited his advocating for sprint in Halo in this previous post.
> >
> > -Here’s an IGN thread where Josh Holmes further expands on sprint’s positive effects on Halo.
> >
> > -Here are multiple points that I’ve provided why I think sprint is good for Halo (I realize that my opinions in those points were just that, but those are all reasons why I think sprint is good for Halo. My original points which were greatly expanded and have since evolved due to this debate were: Immersion, Lore, Predictive Combat, Player Expectations, Give the majority of fans what they want in Halo, and Past Precedence. Those aren’t all the points that I’ve argued when advocating for sprint but those are the areas where I began in this thread).
> >
> > -Here is the evolution of many of those points; including counters from someone against sprint.
> >
> > -Here are some more personal reasons why I want sprint to stay in Halo; along with me asking several dozen friends on XBL about their feelings on sprint in Halo.
> >
> > I want to apologize if linking those posts isn’t appreciated by anyone. Fact is that I really cannot fit all of those things into one post; nor do I want to be redundant and repeat things that we’ve already discussed.
>
>
> 1) Could you guide me to Josh Holmes’ elaboration in that IGN thread, because all I can see is the OP copying the same old TeamBeyond post that the article also cites (and by the way, for sake of keeping to original sources, this is probably the link you should use to cite and not some article or an IGN discussion thread).
>
> 2) But really, this isn’t what I wanted. I don’t gain any understanding from something Josh Holmes has said or something you have said in some other context regarding what you think sprint has to offer that a higher FoV doesn’t. All those links give me is the “what sprint has to offer” part. They say nothing about the “that a higher FoV doesn’t” part.
>
> Also, to clarify, when discussing FoV it should be clear that we’re only limiting the discussion to the immersion side of things because FoV has little overlap with sprint in terms of effects on gameplay, and it is entirely unrelated to any points about lore. So, let me rephrase the question: what aspects of sprint make it more immersive than a high FoV with the appropriate audiovisual effects when running for extended periods of time?

My apologies on not being specific enough in the previous reply… I must have misunderstood what you were asking me for. I’ll try to be more succinct here.

  1. Understood- I’m not that familiar with Team Beyond because I never go there. I’ll save your link now in case I have to refer to that again in the future and thanks. I first read the article on IGN which is the larger of the two that I’ve already read… The other one was the softpedia article which only focuses on a few of the main things that Holmes has advocated for regarding sprint in Halo. Anyhow that’s how I got around to posting those two articles and I’ll only keep the one you provided to me for future reference. Thanks again for the clarification.

  2. I’ve tried not to get too far into FOV because I think it can be altered without altering sprint. I did elaborate on my thoughts about FOV/sprint here. I believe that tweaking FOV doesn’t have to correlate to whether or not sprint should be dropped. FOV could be adjusted in order to improve the next Halo game and sprint could still remain in Halo. Along those lines, I also believe that split settings could further offer a compromise to gamers… Smaller maps in competitive and/or classic playlists could offer no sprint settings and larger maps like BTB, Warzone, Firefight, and even Campaign should still retain sprint; regardless of any potential FOV adjustments. I do agree with the notion that FOV could be adjusted if it can potentially enhance gameplay, and arguably should be adjusted if that’s the case. I just don’t think FOV adjustments should have to be directly correlated to the decision of whether or not to keep sprint.

11332

> 2625759425619671;11321:
> My original points (which were greatly expanded upon and have since evolved during this debate) revolved around: Immersion, Lore, Predictive Combat, Player Expectations (break due to character limit), Give the majority of fans what they want in Halo, and Past Precedence.

Immersion & Lore - I’ll take these both at the same time, given they can boil down into the same pool. This point boils down on super soldiers being able to run and how you like that feedback. Coolio, except for two things. In past Halos, Spartans were running already, and as pointed out, lore-wise, it’s ridiculous for shielding systems to be tied to a Spartan’s forward movement. As in, beyond ridiculous. I’m fine with this as a legitimate opinion, but it’s a very weak one when you look at everything else Halo games contradict, lore wise.

Predictive Combat - This one centered around the idea that unpredictive combat made thing more exciting, so things didn’t devolve into the same thing, over and over again. Fine. Buuuuuuut, in a competitive shooter, predictability in regards to map movement and player habits along those lines are key to keeping a consistent pace and flow in game. When you design a map for sprint, it’s elongated and also segmented. Elongation and segmentation, compounded with your new movement speeds mess with not only proper map movement, but also flow, because the elongation leads to dead spaces where there is next to no flow, unlike Halo games with a single movement speed, which (bar bad design choices) don’t need intentional dead spaces, nor elongation, which in turn, keeps not only the pace up, but also keeps player movement properly predictable, without being repeatable or exploitable.

The point on predictive combat’s contradicted by how every other non-sprint Halo works. None of those games were predictable enough to be exploited. To add to that, sprint effectively stops combat in multiple ways. People can run away from combat, to cover, or their teammates. People can chase those who run. It all break combat, compared to past games, where you always had your gun up unless you specifically looked down. That breaks pace and flow. It makes combat unpredictable and slows it down. For example, in prior games, if you gained the upper hand in a fight, you were generally rewarded and could win unless your opponent either A.) Outshot/strafed you, B.) Strongsided the heck out of dodge, successfully. A hard tactic to do, or C.) Managed to take cover nearby, which you could then move to, guns raised, still in an advantageous position. All of these movements can be followed, and reacted to on the fly. If your opponent ran, there was no break in the fight, since you could easily run right after them. It was a smooth process. Now, however, you can now be essentially robbed of a kill you should rightfully have, because someone ran. You can follow them, but at the expense of your own weapon, thus allowing combat to cease all together. That goes past predictive pacing, into the skillgap, and makes the game less punishing at a base. It makes it take less skill, since you’re punished less, and also rewarded less. Your gunskill means less when others can escape, even if you’re superior in every way, because control is yanked from you when you sprint, and you can’t attack them, nor anyone else.

Go further. Sprint allows the player to move at another movement speed, and with it, you don’t know if someone’s either A.) Crouching, B.) Moving at the BMS, without sprint. or C.) Moving as quickly as possible. There’re too many choices to be made and think on, and that’s compounded by the maps becoming increasingly segmented and complex, geometrically, which is collapsed on by the multitude of other abilities, although those are another story. Compare that to older Halos. An opponent could be A.) Crouching, B.) Moving at full speed, or C.) Moving slower than their full speed, but not crouching. You knew the opponent could be moving as fast as you, or slower. Not faster than you potentially were, which opens up an entire avenue of once unneeded potential thoughts, based on the map, such as “where could they come from, given the new amounts of areas I can be attacked from”?

Look at Plaza. The area known as Yard, where most engagements end up happening has four areas that you can escape from, or enter from, and from each of those, two new areas to go to/come from. The area by snipe spawn likewise has about four or five areas enemies can come from. Then look at, say, Guardian. A map where you had half, if not less routes for that. Snipe tower had two paths that were unseen to people behind the tower’s curve and ramp upwards. The floor below, and area by elbow. You could control the one entrance from above at top mid. It wasn’t a barrage of information or uncontrollable “what ifs”. You can potentially and more reliably predict enemy movement around two to three areas as a single Spartan, but you can’t possibly take four, or even more, and that’s compounded by movement options which can make opponents get to you faster, or slower, at an unpredictable pace. Basic movement and map navigation/prediction becomes way too varied and complex and the amount of “what ifs” shoot through the roof. Unknown variables are bad en masse because there IS no counter to them until you get to that bridge. They always will be bad. And Halo 5 is full of them.

Player Expectations - The only players who expect sprint in a game (as a prerequisite for purchase) are those who don’t give a slight grunt about the game they play and its gameplay integrity. People like this are people who will leave within a month to play the new CoD, or big name shooter/game of the year. Player expectations is absolutely not valid, given when you cater to those people, you aren’t catering to gamers who care entirely about Halo, or its identity in the shooter market. But because of this catering, and with every new gameplay feature, sprint, ground pound, some sort of advanced movement option added to the formula, Halo loses its identity, which was rooted in how simple it was, with a depthful learning curve to its movement. Adding these for “player expectation” is just flawed when people who legitimately care about Halo and its long term success don’t want these because they soil its identity. Which is why the population drop in each Halo since Reach has been evident and notable, on top of a loss in viewership for events. The majority didn’t want these, but the minority (THEN, mind you.) was catered to, and it alienated long time fans, causing them to leave, leaving those in the minority as the slowly rising majority. The argument behind “player expectation” has lead to Halo’s fall, not its rise.

The people who “expect it now” are only in the technical majority because everyone else has jumped ship, while those left in the majority literally don’t care about Halo 6 months in. Heck, not even 3 months in. And that just sucks. Very much putting emphasis on that.

11333

The reason why anti sprinters bring up FOV in relation to sprint is a that a higher FOV with a higher BMS, even a higher FOV by itself would give the feeling of faster movement speed (something that pro sprinters cite as why it should stay, but granted not all) but most imprtantly of all, without losing the ability to move and shoot and without any percieved effects on map design.

There are numerous videos on youtube that explain and show the the effects of FOV if anyone cares to look, and of course you could have FOV with sprint but thats not really needed or the point, when most if not all pro sprinters are already satisfied with a Halo with sprints movement speed,

11334

> 2533274886529017;11332:
> > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > My original points (which were greatly expanded upon and have since evolved during this debate) revolved around: Immersion, Lore, Predictive Combat, Player Expectations (break due to character limit), Give the majority of fans what they want in Halo, and Past Precedence.
>
>
> -Snip-

I posted those points for the moderator because I thought that’s what he was asking me for- but they were already discussed in my reply to zr0fear last week: here and here. I’m only linking the evolution of that debate for you because my previous responses (mostly) stand now as a reply to your points. At the very least there were a ton of things added to the discussion when they were debated last week… Btw I had to cut your text in order to make room for my reply to you.

-Immersion/lore appears to be an “agree to disagree” thing in this situation. You argue that it’s “a very weak,” point supporting sprint but I’ve been arguing for a long time that there is more to it than what you summarized right there. My points on immersion and lore (which are actually separate even if you lump them together) have since expounded upon that initial post that you just responding to. I’m not arguing to change Halo based upon immersion or lore… Fact is that sprint inadvertently supports immersion and lore in Halo so the real change would be to potentially remove it at this point (which would be taking a big step backwards away from realism, immersion, and lore). Standing upon realism, immersion, and lore in order to keep something in Halo is a stronger justification than it would be to try and change something in Halo, which is what you’re actually arguing to do as an anti-sprinter.

-Predictive Combat: Again, you’re insinuating that I’ve suggested that completely unpredictable combat is good… That’s not what I said. I stated that not being able to predict exactly how long it’ll take for your opponent to traverse from their spawn to another point on the map reduces predictability in combat. It’s that slight reduction in predictability that enhances the combat; which doesn’t make things wholly unpredictable in any way. You can still predict where your enemy will likely spawn and roughly how long it’ll take for them to move around the map with sprint but you won’t know exactly how long it’ll take for them to move around the map. It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”

-You listed out maps as examples where you felt they supported your anti sprint perspective and I understand your points on those two examples. I’ve also already listed out multiple BTB maps in Halo 3 where not having sprint hurt the gameplay.

-You stated, “The only players who expect sprint in a game (as a prerequisite for purchase) are those who don’t give a slight grunt about the game they play and its gameplay integrity”. I can’t speak on behalf of everyone but I can speak for myself, my 98-person strong Spartan Company, and my dozens of other friends that I’ve played with on XBL which have stated that they think sprint should stay. Since I’ve entered this discusssion I have legitimately been asking tons and tons of people just for their thoughts on sprint (In order to remain completely neutral when asking the question) and they all unanimously have stated that they like sprint and think it should stay in Halo. Since we all expect sprint to return and I guarantee you that all those people (and I) care greatly about “gameplay integrity,” I’ll have to disagree with you completely on that point. You may not want sprint to be in Halo, but that doesn’t mean that all the people that do expect to see sprint return in the next Halo game “don’t give a slight grunt about the game they play,” just because they like sprint and expect it to return.

11335

It stands to reason that most people still actively playing the game now a year after release will probably like sprint in the game and the mechanics overall, if you asked me if i like sprint in Halo 5 i would probably say yes its as good as sprint will ever be implemented however i still dont thinks its a good addition to Halo overall and the games would be better and more faithful to its core gameplay mechanics without it.

Halo has never been about risk reward mechanics the mechanics have and always should be about rewarding and empowering the player (you are a spartan after all) sprint breaks this idea, the risk reward aspect comes from the gameplay and the decisions you make in the heat of battle, should I push, should I pull the flag, should I challenge, should I back down and try to survive, not if I push this botton it will be the difference between winning a gunfight and losing, thats not Halo.

11336

> 2625759425619671;11334:
> > 2533274886529017;11332:
> > > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > >
> >
> >
> > -Snip-
>
>
>
> -You listed out maps as examples where you felt they supported your anti sprint perspective and I understand your points on those two examples. I’ve also already listed out multiple BTB maps in Halo 3 where not having sprint hurt the gameplay.

Maps that are designed poorly in other words?
Or how you concentrate only, only on vehicles in that post.

> 2533274921982810;11335:
> It stands to reason that most people still actively playing the game now a year after release will probably like sprint in the game and the mechanics overall, if you asked me if i like sprint in Halo 5 i would probably say yes its as good as sprint will ever be implemented however i still dont thinks its a good addition to Halo overall and the games would be better and more faithful to its core gameplay mechanics without it.

Asking people in a coffe shop if they like coffe.

11337

> 2533274795123910;11336:
> > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > > 2533274886529017;11332:
> > > > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > > >
> >
> >
> > -You listed out maps as examples where you felt they supported your anti sprint perspective and I understand your points on those two examples. I’ve also already listed out multiple BTB maps in Halo 3 where not having sprint hurt the gameplay.
>
>
> Maps that are designed poorly in other words?
> Or how you concentrate only, only on vehicles in that post.

That’s because the original argument was that vehicles were the supposed “fix” or “substitute” to not having sprint. Vehicles aren’t a substitute for sprint anymore than teleporters, man canons, or upgrades. Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place (You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace). Upgrades to make people run faster were: limited in duration, left a giant trail to show the enemies that it was being used, & could only be used by one person at a time; thus limiting the remaining 7 people on those teams to walking… Bottom line is that these things were suggested as viable substitutes to sprint but they simply didn’t compare in Halo 3- which I used as a reference for this discussion because it the last game Halo game before the series implemented sprint (And remember that was way back in 2007 btw which was nearly a decade ago because the past 3 AAA Halo Titles do have sprint). Bottom line is that not having sprint on those larger maps are what hurt the game play.

11338

> 2625759425619671;11334:
> Predictive Combat: Again, you’re insinuating that I’ve suggested that completely unpredictable combat is good… That’s not what I said. I stated that not being able to predict how exactly long it’ll take for your opponent to traverse from their spawn to another point on the map reduces predictability in combat. It’s that slight reduction in predictability that enhances the combat, which doesn’t make things wholly unpredictable in any way. You can still predict where your enemy will likely down and roughly how long it’ll take for them to move around the map with sprint but you won’t know exactly how long it’ll take for them to move around the map. It’s that level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
>
> You listed out maps as examples where you felt they supported your anti sprint perspective. I’ve also already listed out multiple BTB maps in Halo 3 where not having sprint hurt the gameplay.
>
> You stated, “The only players who expect sprint in a game (as a prerequisite for purchase) are those who don’t give a slight grunt about the game they play and its gameplay integrity”. I can’t speak on behalf of everyone but I can speak for myself, my 98-person strong Spartan Company, and my dozens of other friends that I’ve played with on XBL which have stated that they think sprint should stay. I have legitimately been asking tons and tons of people just for their thoughts on sprint and they all unanimously have stated that they like sprint and think it should stay in Halo. Since we all expect sprint to return and I guarantee you that all those people (and I) care greatly about “gameplay integrity,” I’ll have to disagree with you completely on that point.

Yes, but the thing is, sprint does more than just increase the time at which you do things. Maps are much wider and pathing is not only more abundant, but overwhelming. Look at Solace in Halo 4, or again, Plaza, Eden, The Rig, or Empire in Halo 5 in comparison to Guardian, or Ascension. It goes beyond just “the time at which you do things”. And again, if you want to make engagements more unique, then introducing RNG is not how you do it. RNG is never the answer in a competitive game. It helps no one. It makes the game worse for everyone. Prediction of map movement is one of the key things in Halo, bar your skill in a gunfight. It’s how you make pushes to certain areas, how you run for weapons/powerups, and even comes into how you walk into a certain room, aiming at a certain angle where you know your enemy could come from, something you can’t do reliably in Halo 5. It’s a vital component to the game, one you shouldn’t be tampering with. My entire past point that I wrote in my past paragraph still stands because it only highlights the downsides more so.

Out of all of those BTB maps, I don’t see what your issue is. Avalanche had teleporters and a bunch of mancannons to assist in movement, sometimes faster than vehicles provided, Valhalla had mancannons and vehicles, Sandtrap, Last Resort, and Rat’s Nest featured a lot of indoor fighting mixed with outdoor, Rat’s Nest especially. Rat’s Nest’s outer ring favored vehicles, but there is a TON of in building combat compared to it. Standoff’s the only map where the indoor areas are limited, but so are vehicles, and even then, the map gives you more than enough to deal with problem vehicles, should they come up. And progressing across the map wasn’t a chore either, given the amount of properly placed cover in the middle, allowing for good advances, provided your team helped you push enemies back from power positions.

If you were forced to “walk” on foot, then you were able to go to the areas that the map was designed around walking in, or could use mancannons to quickly boost yourself back to combat, assuming the map was much larger. You weren’t just left in wide open spaces with no alternate means of travel, because the map was designed to counter that possibility. Sure up to six people would be walking on Last Resort’s offensive side… But there was an entire portion of the map specifically around quickly accessed footbased lanes. Every map had these. They weren’t solely based around vehicular movement, and these specifically designed lanes actually IMPEDED vehicles from accessing or attacking them, be it due to cover, a lack of line of sight in general, or both, allowing for a constantly flow of movement to and from objectives, or just in general, from location to location. It was rare that you were stuck in the middle of “nowhere” and forced to endure a long trek back to base/teammates unless you deliberately put yourself there.

These maps didn’t at all suffer from a lack of sprint. If anything, they flourished from it, because the balance between foot movement and wheel movement was a very careful balance. You weren’t punished for not being in a vehicle, because the maps were designed around you walking as well, and you as a footsoldier were sometimes encouraged to go on foot to get to weapons or positions you couldn’t get with vehicles, depending on the context of the scenario.

Finally, you know 98 people in a company, and something akin to that here on this forum (Being generous) is nowhere near a majority in that regard, right? Nowhere near the amount of players that have left this game, despite 343i’s catering to them? It’s cool that you and your band of friends like that, on top of some people here, but you’re in a minority. There’s a reason people have left these games much more so, making each successor’s populations so dismal to its predecessor, post Reach. And to be honest, if you cared about gameplay integrity, you’d actually strive to learn about how the game works and what made Halo operate so smoothly before sprint came in, and not just deny each point against it as some sort of “opinion”, which is wrong at a base. *There’s a reason it became an issue after inclusion, not before.*No disrespect, but your lack of understanding or outright dismissal of many basic key concepts here with sprint for example, has led me to believe you either outright don’t care for Halo’s gameplay, or you’re just misguided in what you think works, compared to what’s been proven and spoken on, the latter of which I’m much more inclined to believe. And no, that isn’t a jab at you, nor me just arrogantly viewing my gameplay view as right, without flaw, because I know I’m going to be accused of those things. But it’s painfully obvious, no matter how much you paint me, or others as if we’re antagonizing you for pro-sprint opinions, which we’re not, we’re merely arguing the validity of yours, and other’s arguments. If you, or others cared, you’d get educated truly, rather than calling us out as the antagonists, or accusing us of providing nothing but “opinions”. And the thing is, that former point is exactly what we’ve done. We’ve gotten educated with sprint and what it does and there’s a reason we don’t like it. Multiple reasons at that. And I’m saying this, not as someone who’s “angry” at you or anything, but just personally baffled, more so. You can like sprint, as I’ve said over and over, but to say you care for Halo’s gameplay integrity and vouch for sprint seriously in the same breath? That doesn’t mix. Because you’re vouching for something that’s led to the degradation of the game and the franchise over the past 6 years, among other things. Something you can see yourself in many different ways.

11339

> 2625759425619671;11337:
> > 2533274795123910;11336:
> > > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > > > 2533274886529017;11332:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;11321:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Snip-
> > >
> > >
> > > -You listed out maps as examples where you felt they supported your anti sprint perspective and I understand your points on those two examples. I’ve also already listed out multiple BTB maps in Halo 3 where not having sprint hurt the gameplay.
> >
> >
> > Maps that are designed poorly in other words?
> > Or how you concentrate only, only on vehicles in that post.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274921982810;11335:
> > >
>
>
> That’s because the original argument was that vehicles were the supposed “fix” or “substitute” to not having sprint. Vehicles aren’t a substitute for sprint anymore than teleporters, man canons, or upgrades. Sprint is multi-directional, dynamic, and can be utilized everywhere on a map whereas teleporters and man canons are stationary, static, point-to-point, single directional devices that can only take someone from point a to point b. People also routinely camped at opposite ends of teleporters and man canons which made using them a risk in the first place. You shouldn’t have to risk using a faster means of transportion than the walking pace.

That was after you neglected to even adress them to concentrate on basic math.

Also, sprint used as an all-encompassing band-aid fix to alleviate a localised problem.
The problem persisits as sprint never touch the root, while sprint also affect other parts.

Did you take into account that perhaps not everyone has to move far from spawn the immediate instance they spawn? Sniper roles, other nearby power ups, defensive positions, etc?

Please elaborate on how there should be no risk to using a map asset offering an advantage over other means of traveling. Or why taking advantage of the somewhat bottlenecks they provide is a valid reason to not take them into account for map traversal.

If there should be no risk using faster means of transportation than walking, then the weapon lowering is to be removed as well as the shield recharge reset from sprint.

11340

> 2625759425619671;11334:
> It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”

I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.

I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.

Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.

11341

> 2533274886529017;11338:
> > 2625759425619671;11334:
> >
>
>
> 1) Yes, but the thing is…
>
> 2) Maps are much wider and pathing is not only more abundant, but overwhelming.
>
> 3) And again, if you want to make engagements more unique, then introducing RNG is not how you do it.
>
> 4) It’s how you make pushes to certain areas, something you can’t do reliably in Halo 5.
>
> 5) Out of all of those BTB maps, I don’t see what your issue is.
>
> 6) Finally, you know 98 people in a company, and something akin to that here on this forum (Being generous) is nowhere near a majority in that regard, right?
>
> 7) It’s cool that you and your band of friends like that, on top of some people here, but you’re in a minority.
>
> 8) There’s a reason people have left these games
>
> 9) And to be honest, if you cared about gameplay integrity, you’d actually strive to learn about how the game works and what made Halo operate so smoothly before sprint came in, and not just deny each point against it as some sort of “opinion”, which is wrong at a base.
>
> 10) No disrespect, but your lack of understanding or outright dismissal of many basic key concepts here with sprint for example, has led me to believe you either outright don’t care for Halo’s gameplay, or you’re just misguided in what you think works, compared to what’s been proven and spoken on, the latter of which I’m much more inclined to believe.
>
> 11) If you, or others cared, you’d get educated truly, rather than calling us out as the antagonists, or accusing us of providing nothing but “opinions”. And the thing is, that former point is exactly what we’ve done. We’ve gotten educated with sprint and what it does and there’s a reason we don’t like it.
>
> 12) You can like sprint, as I’ve said over and over, but to say you care for Halo’s gameplay integrity and vouch for sprint seriously in the same breath? That doesn’t mix.
>
> 13) Because you’re vouching for something that’s led to the degradation of the game and the franchise over the past 6 years

Can you honestly number your replies? Your responses are all over the place

  1. Case in point ^

  2. You’ve said this before but maps don’t have to be wider to accommodate sprint. Many remade maps are very close in size to their predecessors on Halo 5 and any perceived “widening,” could be attributed to the fact that newer games are trying to expand the potential player count in those maps. There are other reasons why map sizes could be increased- besides maps don’t favor people that use sprint all the time. You can’t sprint/shoot at the same time and you can’t recharge your shields so using sprint is a temporary risk/reward element in Halo 5- not a way to get more kills and try to end the game any faster (You can’t even sprint with objectives like the flag on CTF)

  3. Again I don’t think you’ve even fully understood what I’m arguing for in that point. I’m not arguing for complete randomness! If I were than all of your points are completely understood. I’m arguing that the slight increase in unpredictability is beneficial for gameplay because it adds a layer of skill to the game. I’m not arguing that tossing in random RNG is good for the game- I’m arguing that the difference between knowing where your opponent will spawn and then knowing how long it’ll take them to move from that spawn is slightly less predictable with sprint than without it. That unique subtly is what makes it beneficial for gameplay, not any perceived notion of “complete randomness” that you seem to have about this point

  4. You can absolutely make pushes reliably in Halo 5. Winning games in Arena quite often comes down to the team making effective pushes to win games, but also boils down to map control, team shots, and shooting better than your opponents in 1v1 situations. When people try to sprint away from me and my team they almost always get pushed and funneled to their doom because of our teamwork to include: effective pushes, proper position, and retaining of map control.

  5. I’ve given multiple reasons why vehicles, man canons, teleporters, and temporary speed boosts are not an effective substitute for sprint. I was suggesting that not having sprint hurt the game play on those larger maps.

  6. Was “being generous” really necessary? I have well over 1,000 followers, over 1000 friends, and hundreds of viewers on Twitch. My Spartan coming actually has two more expansion companies now so no your count is not even close (or “generous” at all for that matter) And just like your felllow anti sprinters have tried to assert that 200 person-large poll “meaning something” regarding quantitative poll results on sprint, yes- I do believe that getting qualitative data on sprint by talking to people directly about it “means something” on the issue

  7. Not everyone I’ve spoken to that plays with me are even my friends- and it’s not like I tried to influence them when asking them about sprint in the first place; nor would they have any reason why they wouldn’t just speak their mind on the issue one way or the other. This thread may have a few persistent anti sprinters throughout but it’s perfectly logical to assume the reason that is is because people that are upset about something are way more likely to seek out a creative medium to express their displeasure, such as this thread. People that are content with sprint may have no idea this is even an issue right now. Furthermore it’s extremely ironic to hear you toss that “your band of friends” jab like that when earlier in this thread you tried to assert your map design opinions as fact on the sheer basis of your band of friends in this thread agreeing with your opinion

  8. There are actually multiple reasons why people may have chosen to leave Halo, and I guarantee you that sprint is not the sole culprit behind that like you’re implying

  9. Again I’m going to receive this as a jab because you’re basically challenging my ability to understand how the game operates solely on the fact that I just disagree with you regarding one mechanic of the game. Halo 3 was hardly “smooth” either for a number of reasons that I just stated. If it was as “smooth” as you’re suggesting then the MLG community wouldn’t have had to tweak the default settings just to make it playable

  10. Just because you try to lead off with “no disrespect” doesn’t mean the rest of that run-on sentence wasn’t entirely disrespectful (which it was). All of what you said there was a jab- which is more or less you trying to say “I’m right in my opinions on this debate because you don’t know enough about it!”

  11. It’s not about whose “more educated,” it’s about what’s best for Halo and its fans. I firmly believe that a split settings compromise is what’s best for fans because 1) It’ll offer more people what they may want out of Halo and 2) It’ll enable 343i to accurately assess what the majority actually wants regarding sprint. You aren’t more educated on this matter you’re simply more aggressive in your delivery in the debate- that’s about it as far as the difference goes

  12. It’s absolutely logical to assume that someone who likes sprint can care about the integrity of the game. In fact it’s illogical for you to claim the converse of that like you tried to do there

  13. Sprint hasn’t led to any perceived degradation of Halo. If anything competition from other games and systems have diluted the market and made it harder for one game to stand out like Halo used to do way back in the day. The notion that “sprint is the fault of everything that’s bad in Halo” shows to me that you’re not as educated on this issue as you claim to be

11342

> 2533274825830455;11340:
> > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
>
>
> I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.
>
> I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.
>
> Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.

Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).

11343

> 2625759425619671;11342:
> > 2533274825830455;11340:
> > > 2625759425619671;11334:
> > > It’s that subtle level of RNG that sprint adds that helps make engagements a little bit more unique- but not at all “completely unpredictable.”
> >
> >
> > I know that this isn’t the intended interpretation, but sprint has nothing to do with RNG’s, so I don’t think we should use the abbreviation “RNG” to refer to anything relating to sprint, or in fact, anything not generated by an actual random number generator.
> >
> > I also suggest making a distinction between randomness inherent to the game (i.e. mechanics that depend on a random number generator, call it “game generated randomness”) and randomness caused by player’s actions in the game (call it “player generated randomness”). (It’s worth noting that both of these types of randomness are only pseudorandom.) The reason this is a useful distinction to make is that these are two completely different beasts. Nobody controls game generated randomness, and as it’s fundamentally beyond human prediction ability, there is no skill in dealing with it. When it comes to player generated randomness, players themselves are in charge of how difficult it is for the opponent to predict their actions. Players are also ultimately very predictable, orders of magnitude more so than the random number generator, and therefore there is a chance to play against player generated randomness, as it tends to be not that random after all. This particularly means that player generated randomness adds to the strategy of the game as players need to make their own actions as unpredictable to the opponent as possible, while predicting the opponent’s actions as well as they can.
> >
> > Any randomness brought in by sprint is player generated. This is important, because the same arguments that apply to random number generators (no one controls it, it’s impossible to predict) don’t generally apply to player generated randomness. Especially, because game generated randomness nothing to strategy while player generated randomness does add something, more player generated randomness doesn’t automatically make the game shallower, but can make it deeper. Therefore, “sprint adds randomness” is not a valid argument for how sprint makes the game shallower. And that is ultimately why we should make the distinction between game generated and player generated randomness.
>
>
> Okay I thought “RNG,” was something accepted by the gaming community as something else that sort of evolved to an incorrect abbreviation for “randomness in gaming.” If you don’t think it should be in the debate then I’ll refrain from saying it. Perhaps I said that simply for lack of better words to describe the fact that trying to predict where an opponent will move from a spawn and how long it’ll take them to actually move from that spawn is just slightly more challenging (and fun) when sprint is a factor in the game. Otherwise you can not only start to predict where your opponent will spawn… But with only one BMS you’ll also know how long it’ll take for them to transition from that spawn to another point on the map. Take Lockout for example- you always knew where your enemy was going to start out on the map, that they would move for the sniper rifle, & how long it was going to take for them to move from their spawn to that sniper rifle. My point was that the extra randomness injected from the sprint mechanic would have shaken that last part up a little bit. It’s obvious that people would still have gone for the sniper rifle but you just wouldn’t have known exactly how long it would take for them to get there (and be able to land blind “god,” grenade tosses from BR tower to stick opponents you couldn’t even see coming up the sniper ramp, for instance).

Why wouldn’t someone sprint to the sniper all the time from the start?
“Be more unpredictable in terms of time”?
What prevented anyone in Halo 2 from stopping now and then or move below highest BMS in order to achieve the same result?