The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
11024

> 2533274913913392;11023:
> > 2535450703392903;10993:
> > > 2625759425619671;10986:
> > > > 2535450703392903;10982:
> > > > SHOOT2KILL gets all upset that ignored his points. So I respond to them. And he ignores it.
> > > >
> > > > Oh waypoint
> > >
> > >
> > > Says the person who asked me for a point that was already given to you yet you literally ignored it a couple hours earlier… smh
> > >
> > > Don’t get mad at me if you have trouble reading when the points you want have already been provided. Just open your eyes, I guess.
> >
> >
> > I went back through your 18 layered hyperlinks and replied to your points.
> >
> > Well, i’ll address a few of your points then
> > 1. Immersion
> > Immersion is 100% subjective. I’m supposed to be the augmented epitome of killing from the future and yet I have to slow down to a crawl in order to fire a weapon? That’s not immersive to me at all.
> >
> > 2. Lore
> > It’s already been proven that according to the lore Spartans can maintain the ability to move and shoot well past the speed at which sprint is depicted in the games. Sprint actually goes against the Lore.
> >
> > 3-Sprint providing choices
> > This is not a good thing. Halo gameplay is built upon the premise of empowering the player through the limiting of binary either/or decisions in it’s gameplay systems. Look through all of Halo’s central gameplay systems and you will see this. You don’t have to choose between strafing and accuracy because you don’t bloom when you strafe like in most games. Hell, you don’t bloom from movement at all. Not from Jumping, walking or strafing. On precision weapons you don’t even bloom from ROF. Unlike practically all of HCE’s predecessors the game limits binary weapon choices by limiting the player to two weapons that are almost always fairly utilitarian instead of having the player carry 10+ incredibly niche weapons. Players are given hotkey grenades to limit the binary choice between nades and shooting. You only lose the ability to shoot for a fraction of a second instead of having to slowly open a menu, switch to nades, throw it and then switch back. Rebounding health limits the binary choices players have to make regarding health. In games with health pick ups you switch between defensively searching for health and offensively attacking when you have a health advantage. Rebounding health muddies the water between this decision to the point of essentially eliminating it.
> >
> > All the key pillars of Halo gameplay focus on the idea of making the player not have to choose between two things. It tries really hard to ensure that the player feels empowered by being able to do multiple things at once instead of having to make either/or decisions. The only system in Halo that doesn’t do this is sprint(and now some of the other movement mechanics in H5). Why would you make a game in which every single one of it’s core systems are trying to accomplish one thing and then stick in one system that tries to do the exact opposite? That makes no sense. This is a huge reason why sprint causes such a problem for so many people. It’s also the reason why literally every single other mechanic that has been introduced to Halo that brings about binary decisions(dual wielding, bloom, AAs) has been scraped from the franchise.
>
>
> More than half of the halos made by Bungie had healthpickups. 3/5. Only 2 did not. So I fail to see your reasoning of removing player choices.

The core health mechanic was still the rebounding shield. They were not health pick up games along the lines of Quake.

11025

> 2535450703392903;11024:
> > 2533274913913392;11023:
> > > 2535450703392903;10993:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10986:
> > > > > 2535450703392903;10982:
> > > > > SHOOT2KILL gets all upset that ignored his points. So I respond to them. And he ignores it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh waypoint
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Says the person who asked me for a point that was already given to you yet you literally ignored it a couple hours earlier… smh
> > > >
> > > > Don’t get mad at me if you have trouble reading when the points you want have already been provided. Just open your eyes, I guess.
> > >
> > >
> > > I went back through your 18 layered hyperlinks and replied to your points.
> > >
> > > Well, i’ll address a few of your points then
> > > 1. Immersion
> > > Immersion is 100% subjective. I’m supposed to be the augmented epitome of killing from the future and yet I have to slow down to a crawl in order to fire a weapon? That’s not immersive to me at all.
> > >
> > > 2. Lore
> > > It’s already been proven that according to the lore Spartans can maintain the ability to move and shoot well past the speed at which sprint is depicted in the games. Sprint actually goes against the Lore.
> > >
> > > 3-Sprint providing choices
> > > This is not a good thing. Halo gameplay is built upon the premise of empowering the player through the limiting of binary either/or decisions in it’s gameplay systems. Look through all of Halo’s central gameplay systems and you will see this. You don’t have to choose between strafing and accuracy because you don’t bloom when you strafe like in most games. Hell, you don’t bloom from movement at all. Not from Jumping, walking or strafing. On precision weapons you don’t even bloom from ROF. Unlike practically all of HCE’s predecessors the game limits binary weapon choices by limiting the player to two weapons that are almost always fairly utilitarian instead of having the player carry 10+ incredibly niche weapons. Players are given hotkey grenades to limit the binary choice between nades and shooting. You only lose the ability to shoot for a fraction of a second instead of having to slowly open a menu, switch to nades, throw it and then switch back. Rebounding health limits the binary choices players have to make regarding health. In games with health pick ups you switch between defensively searching for health and offensively attacking when you have a health advantage. Rebounding health muddies the water between this decision to the point of essentially eliminating it.
> > >
> > > All the key pillars of Halo gameplay focus on the idea of making the player not have to choose between two things. It tries really hard to ensure that the player feels empowered by being able to do multiple things at once instead of having to make either/or decisions. The only system in Halo that doesn’t do this is sprint(and now some of the other movement mechanics in H5). Why would you make a game in which every single one of it’s core systems are trying to accomplish one thing and then stick in one system that tries to do the exact opposite? That makes no sense. This is a huge reason why sprint causes such a problem for so many people. It’s also the reason why literally every single other mechanic that has been introduced to Halo that brings about binary decisions(dual wielding, bloom, AAs) has been scraped from the franchise.
> >
> >
> > More than half of the halos made by Bungie had healthpickups. 3/5. Only 2 did not. So I fail to see your reasoning of removing player choices.
>
>
> The core health mechanic was still the rebounding shield. They were not health pick up games along the lines of Quake.

Ah…ok. Makes more sense.

11026

> 2533274990620516;10914:
> No, turning around should not have a disadvantage because like you said it’s a basic action. However, Halo 5 technically has seven Spartan Abilities, and one of them is Sprint. And even though all players have these abilities I do not consider them “basic” actions. They are advanced and situational combat techniques, therefore they must be balanced in order to guarantee that players don’t abuse a single Spartan Ability without repercussions. So that’s why I feel that sprint is a game feature with the capability of being balanced.

Okay? They must be balanced, sure but that doesn’t mean they are balanced. And on top of that, these actions are basic. You were able to do almost every single one of these actions, or a similar action relative to them in prior Halo games (Bar stabilization), without breaking flow, or balance. These actions are so far from “advanced”, in anything but the buzzword sense. And here’s the thing, why put these abilities in game, when you could do them beforehand without having to balance the game’s very maps, among other things around them, and allowing them to mess with the pacing of the game’s very gunfights, on top of other areas.

If it’s been unbalanced in the past three titles we have them in, despite all the counters put against it in successor titles (which arguably only prove the point they shouldn’t be there in the first place), then why keep trying to force it in, when it wasn’t there in the first place and has only served to slowly degrade the game and how it operates? Assuming implementation wouldn’t alienate older fans and offered no repercussions, they must be balanced, sure, but people can abuse many of the new abilities without repercussions. People can sprint or thrust out of situations, use clamber to gain higher elevation for the same purpose. They can also use Spartan Charge and sometimes Ground Pound (Only through the splash damage sense) to gain braindead easy kills, no matter the skill level, and use slide as an escape method.

Just, why do we need them, is more so my question now. What do they serve to add to the game that prior Halos lacked, past specific animations?

11027

> 2533274886529017;11026:
> > 2533274990620516;10914:
> > No, turning around should not have a disadvantage because like you said it’s a basic action. However, Halo 5 technically has seven Spartan Abilities, and one of them is Sprint. And even though all players have these abilities I do not consider them “basic” actions. They are advanced and situational combat techniques, therefore they must be balanced in order to guarantee that players don’t abuse a single Spartan Ability without repercussions. So that’s why I feel that sprint is a game feature with the capability of being balanced.
>
>
> Okay? They must be balanced, sure but that doesn’t mean they are balanced. And on top of that, these actions are basic. You were able to do almost every single one of these actions, or a similar action relative to them in prior Halo games (Bar stabilization), without breaking flow, or balance. These actions are so far from “advanced”, in anything but the buzzword sense. And here’s the thing, why put these abilities in game, when you could do them beforehand without having to balance the game’s very maps, among other things around them, and allowing them to mess with the pacing of the game’s very gunfights, on top of other areas.
>
> If it’s been unbalanced in the past three titles we have them in, despite all the counters put against it in successor titles (which arguably only prove the point they shouldn’t be there in the first place), then why keep trying to force it in, when it wasn’t there in the first place and has only served to slowly degrade the game and how it operates? Assuming implementation wouldn’t alienate older fans and offered no repercussions, they must be balanced, sure, but people can abuse many of the new abilities without repercussions. People can sprint or thrust out of situations, use clamber to gain higher elevation for the same purpose. They can also use Spartan Charge and sometimes Ground Pound (Only through the splash damage sense) to gain braindead easy kills, no matter the skill level, and use slide as an escape method.
>
> Just, why do we need them, is more so my question now. What do they serve to add to the game that prior Halos lacked, past specific animations?

Don’t forget that even if we regard them as balanced, not saying they are or not, it doesn’t mean anyone automatically likes. There are plenty of reasons to dislike even a balanced mechanic.

Also, seeing as the topic of Basic vs Advanced mechanics have come up, what would be the definitions of these to easier help identify them?

The way I see it, you’re running towards each other on the beach but do the classic that you run past each other.

I think, Tsassi and Exuberant Umbra, you, are talking about what you’re doing, the result of the actions.

Moving around in the XYZ-Space, to you are basic actions, tasks.
While Perplex Donut is talking about sprint itself being “an advanced” mechanic.

I think it’d be a good opportunity to elaborate on why navigating the XYZ-Space is a basic task, and how the sprint mechanic itself is an advanced mechanic. Also what a basic action is, as well as an advanced one, and so forth.

11028

> 2533274990620516;10914:
> But what I’m trying to say is that flow isn’t interrupted just because someone incorporates sprint into their fighting style. Players constantly alternate between combat and travel so the game flow never stops, it just flows in a different direction sometimes. To visualize what I’m saying, picture this:
>
> You’re playing CTF. You’re currently shooting an enemy player that’s trying to advance on your team’s flag. After landing the headshot you sprint over to a cliffside where you saw the other team’s sniper only a minute ago, and luckily he wasn’t paying attention so he never had a chance once you got close enough to assassinate him. From your new vantage point you see that your team is pushing for the enemy flag; they’ve got the flag outside the enemy base but your carrier was killed before he could get away, so now everyone’s in a firefight around the flag. You see the flag timer is reaching its end and no one on your team is able to reach it. You sprint down the hill, spartan charge an unaware player, grab the flag, and use your thruster pack to lunge towards your base.
>
> I see no discontinuity here, yet you used sprint twice to get the job done. Just because you could not have your weapon up and at the ready does not necessarily mean that your combat ability was impaired or flow was interrupted.

I don’t ever really find these carefully crafted imaginary situations quite convincing. Besides, it kind of misses the whole point that with sprint you can’t advance while also shooting. You are always doing either one or the other. This separates the combat and the transit, creating two separate flows that you constantly switch between. There is no one, single, continuous flow anymore.

With that said, I think you have explained yourself well enough as to what flow means to you, which was what this was initially about. I can’t say that the above isn’t a sensible way to think of flow, even if it isn’t the way I see things. And as this was always only about what you mean by flow, I see no need to interrogate further on that matter.

> 2533274990620516;10914:
> No, turning around should not have a disadvantage because like you said it’s a basic action. However, Halo 5 technically has seven Spartan Abilities, and one of them is Sprint. And even though all players have these abilities I do not consider them “basic” actions. They are advanced and situational combat techniques, therefore they must be balanced in order to guarantee that players don’t abuse a single Spartan Ability without repercussions. So that’s why I feel that sprint is a game feature with the capability of being balanced.

If you have every player infinite thrusts and significantly extended the range, the game wouldn’t become any less balanced. It would simply become unplayably slow as it would be near impossible to not let an opponent escape. I have a problem with the use of “balance” here because too often in these discussions certain terms get used too often. It often feels like “risk and reward” (not related to our discussion) and “balance” are the only things many people can talk about. Terms that get used too often have a tendency to diminish in meaning. So, sorry for insisting on some other terminology, but it leads us deeper into what you actually mean.

I also disagree that Spartan Abilities aren’t basic abilities. Sure, you can call them “advanced and situational combat techniques” if you want to sound fancy, but that doesn’t change the fact that each player has them by default, and therefore they belong to the set of basic player abilities just like running forwards and backwards, strafing, turning, jumping, and crouching. This is, again, just a matter of semantics though.

Now, to the actual point. The problem with your argument here is the assumption that making an ability that every player has by default more powerful necessarily makes it too powerful. Now that I explicitly stated it, do you genuinely believe that is the case, or do I need to dig up a counterexample?

Well, you get the counterexample anyway as my next point is a natural counterexample: sprint. As you well know, Halo before Reach did not have sprint. Instead, every player ran at maximum speed all the time while being able to shoot, throw grenades, and perform every other action possible. That didn’t cause problems in gameplay, so why would it suddenly cause problems now? You’re worried that allowing players to shoot while running at maximum speed would allow players to “abuse” this ability without repercussions, but you haven’t explained why this is necessarily a bad thing?

11029

> 2625759425619671;10947:
> > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > >
> > >
> > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> >
> >
> > I said convincing points.
>
>
> How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
>
> And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.

You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.

11030

Sprint = Cod Not halo

11031

> 2533274943854776;11029:
> > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > >
> > >
> > > I said convincing points.
> >
> >
> > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> >
> > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
>
>
> You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.

Several of us have addressed the “27 points” post. I don’t see a reply to the counter arguments though.

MineOG Nick

11032

> 2547348539238747;11031:
> > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I said convincing points.
> > >
> > >
> > > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> > >
> > > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
> >
> >
> > You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.
>
>
> Several of us have addressed the “27 points” post. I don’t see a reply to the counter arguments though.
>
> MineOG Nick

That’s what I’m saying. SiN is always linking these things like: “Someone please counter-argue!” and we do. And then he doesn’t respond.

11033

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Is this topic seriously still around?

11034

> 2533274886529017;11026:
> Okay? They must be balanced, sure but that doesn’t mean they are balanced. And on top of that, these actions are basic. You were able to do almost every single one of these actions, or a similar action relative to them in prior Halo games (Bar stabilization), without breaking flow, or balance. These actions are so far from “advanced”, in anything but the buzzword sense. And here’s the thing, why put these abilities in game, when you could do them beforehand without having to balance the game’s very maps, among other things around them, and allowing them to mess with the pacing of the game’s very gunfights, on top of other areas.
>
> If it’s been unbalanced in the past three titles we have them in, despite all the counters put against it in successor titles (which arguably only prove the point they shouldn’t be there in the first place), then why keep trying to force it in, when it wasn’t there in the first place and has only served to slowly degrade the game and how it operates? Assuming implementation wouldn’t alienate older fans and offered no repercussions, they must be balanced, sure, but people can abuse many of the new abilities without repercussions. People can sprint or thrust out of situations, use clamber to gain higher elevation for the same purpose. They can also use Spartan Charge and sometimes Ground Pound (Only through the splash damage sense) to gain braindead easy kills, no matter the skill level, and use slide as an escape method.
>
> Just, why do we need them, is more so my question now. What do they serve to add to the game that prior Halos lacked, past specific animations?

They add more variety to gameplay.
Traditional Halo’s functions: walk, crouch, melee, shoot, grenade, and zoom
Modern Halo’s functions: walk, crouch, melee, shoot, grenade, assassinate, sprint, thrust, clamber, slide, ground pound, spartan charge, and smart scope

There are so many more things players can do now, which keeps matches exciting and unpredictable. It doesn’t alienate older fans in the slightest, you’re only alienating yourself by choosing not to consider any new features. And most abilities do have repercussions if used repeatedly.
Assassinate: forcing yourself into an animation for a few seconds so you’re exposed to enemy attacks
Sprint: your shields don’t recharge. AND you can’t shoot your gun…
Ground Pound: you’re exposed to incoming fire and takes a couple seconds to prepare; risky kill
Spartan Charge: can’t shoot while you’re in the animation and requires you to be sprinting beforehand to get to a close range
Smart Scope: remvoes radar in most cases

Walk, crouch, melee, shoot, and grenade do not have negatives because they are true basic functions. Thrust, clamber, and slide don’t have repercussions because ultimately they don’t impact much, as they are A) very quick movements and B) don’t impact the death of an enemy, unlike the other spartan abilities I listed. The only one that is questionable is slide since you can shoot while doing it. But you do have to be sprinting first, which does add the fact that you can’t recharge your shields or shoot until you’re actually on the ground sliding.

> people can abuse many of the new abilities without repercussions. People can sprint or thrust out of situations, use clamber to gain higher elevation for the same purpose. They can also use Spartan Charge and sometimes Ground Pound (Only through the splash damage sense) to gain braindead easy kills, no matter the skill level, and use slide as an escape method.

How exactly is any of that abuse? Seems like you were just defining their uses. It’s only abuse if you do the same thing over and over again with no signs of being stopped or having to deal with any negative outcomes. But like I wrote above, there are problems if you choose to Spartan Charge or Ground Pound repeatedly.

11035

[deleted]

11036

> 2535464451695009;11035:
> > 2533274901619898;11033:
> > Is this topic seriously still around?
>
>
> Mostly because of people like you bumping it.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274943854776;11032:
> > > 2547348539238747;11031:
> > > > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I said convincing points.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> > > > >
> > > > > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.
>
>
>
> On topic though, honestly, why is no one suggesting map-pickup Armor Abilities?

We use to suggest it. Mostly during Halo Reach. We even made gametypes and maps that had them. I personally preferred it, for the same reason I preferred the equipment from Halo 3, you had to fight or collect the item to begin with. It became not something you could just spam upon spawn but had to use carefully. It really fits in with Halo’s tactical side.

But yeah, that too was ignored. 343i continued with off spawn abilities for Halo 4. Crazy side note: We kept telling them that all players had to be equal off start. It doesn’t matter what they could collect after then, as long as spawns are a knowable factor. Instead of moving abilities off of the player to a pick-up-able state, they gave everybody the same abilities.

11037

> 2535464451695009;11035:
> > 2533274901619898;11033:
> > Is this topic seriously still around?
>
>
> Mostly because of people like you bumping it.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274943854776;11032:
> > > 2547348539238747;11031:
> > > > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I said convincing points.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> > > > >
> > > > > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.
> > >
> > >
> > > Several of us have addressed the “27 points” post. I don’t see a reply to the counter arguments though.
> > >
> > > MineOG Nick
> >
> >
> > That’s what I’m saying. SiN is always linking these things like: “Someone please counter-argue!” and we do. And then he doesn’t respond.
>
>
> Most people here don’t even counter argue when they’re stumped, which is what I’ve noticed. If a day goes by without a response, but they still post on Waypoint, they can’t think of any counters points.
>
> On topic though, honestly, why is no one suggesting map-pickup Armor Abilities? That literally solves most of the problems of Sprint/No-Sprint. If you wanna move fast, you gotta fight for it at multiple places on the map, and there’s currently enough map space for 4 people to Sprint and for others to get something else.

I got no problem with that. But they shouldn’t spawn like Brs or grenades. They should spawn in the middle of the map, one per map. Or maybe give each team their own at the start of the match kinda like the snipers on The Pit or Sanctuary.

Also, is there a problem with sprint in BTB if the vehicles are fast enough? Because I really liked Reaches BTB.

11038

> 2533274825830455;11028:
> If you have every player infinite thrusts and significantly extended the range, the game wouldn’t become any less balanced. It would simply become unplayably slow as it would be near impossible to not let an opponent escape. I have a problem with the use of “balance” here because too often in these discussions certain terms get used too often. It often feels like “risk and reward” (not related to our discussion) and “balance” are the only things many people can talk about. Terms that get used too often have a tendency to diminish in meaning. So, sorry for insisting on some other terminology, but it leads us deeper into what you actually mean.

My perspective on balance in terms of sprint is rooted in the fact that sprint is used to activate other Spartan Abilities that can assist in the killing of opponents, including Spartan Charge and Slide. In order to ensure that these 2 abilities cannot be abused and used repeatedly, the functionality of sprint has to be adjusted so that players experience repercussions if they choose to use it. Therefore providing ‘balance’ in the sense that if a player wants to benefit from Spartan Charge or Slide, or just wants to benefit from what sprint is on its own, they will have to deal with the fact that their shields won’t recharge and they can’t fire their weapon. So although you say ‘risk and reward’ is not related to our discussion, I do feel like that is actually what I just described haha. I’m not on the forums enough to know true terminology, and at this point I’m confusing myself because you seem to know a lot more about the terms than I do. If you want to know what I think the definitions are for most video game terms just ask yourself what an average player would think and I’m probably somewhere around there too, since I don’t examine the roles these words play too specifically.

> 2533274825830455;11028:
> I also disagree that Spartan Abilities aren’t basic abilities. Sure, you can call them “advanced and situational combat techniques” if you want to sound fancy, but that doesn’t change the fact that each player has them by default, and therefore they belong to the set of basic player abilities just like running forwards and backwards, strafing, turning, jumping, and crouching. This is, again, just a matter of semantics though.

But Spartan Abilities are situational, therefore I do not think they belong in the same group as what I consider “basic abilites”. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that basic abilities to me are the actions that don’t directly affect other players. So sorry I’m changing my definition mid-conversation, but:
Basic abilities include: walking, strafing, jumping, crouching, clambering, and thrusting
Situational abilites include: shooting, grenading, Ground Pound, Slide, Spartan Charge, Smart Scope, and sprint

So now I have Spartan Abilities in both categories, but the basic set effectively contains just movements that are appropriate to use any time a chance arises to use them, and only affect the player doing the actions. The situational abilities are functions that the player must decide to use based on what’s going on around them, and overall do have a direct affect on other players. And because they have an impact on other players, these situational abilites must have pros and cons so players have to think before using them, hence my definition of balance.

But now I’m seeing the a dispute in my own lists. Sprint in itself is a movement that affects only the player using it, yet it’s in the situational category. Well it’s there because like I said earlier it does allow the player to activate some Spartan Abilities, therefore must have some type of drawback so players don’t always use it without thinking first. And since the situational set is the only group to have features that contain drawbacks, sprint must be placed there.

> 2533274825830455;11028:
> Now, to the actual point. The problem with your argument here is the assumption that making an ability that every player has by default more powerful necessarily makes it too powerful. Now that I explicitly stated it, do you genuinely believe that is the case, or do I need to dig up a counterexample?
>
> Well, you get the counterexample anyway as my next point is a natural counterexample: sprint. As you well know, Halo before Reach did not have sprint. Instead, every player ran at maximum speed all the time while being able to shoot, throw grenades, and perform every other action possible. That didn’t cause problems in gameplay, so why would it suddenly cause problems now? You’re worried that allowing players to shoot while running at maximum speed would allow players to “abuse” this ability without repercussions, but you haven’t explained why this is necessarily a bad thing?

If everyone was able to run at max speed and shoot at the same time then it would not be a problem, but I suppose the developers just wanted people to choose between fighting or fleeing instead of having both options at the same time. It was a design choice, not a design flaw. Also not to mention the fact that sprint is used to activate Spartan Charge, so if sprint wasn’t there then Spartan Charge would be abused if it could be activated without having to sprint beforehand since the initial sprint is what keeps people from using it all the time, but that’s a different issue altogether.

11039

> 2533274943854776;11029:
> > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > >
> > >
> > > I said convincing points.
> >
> >
> > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> >
> > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
>
>
> You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.

No I really don’t… They’re completely valid. Plus that person asked to see “anything,” regarding why one BMS wouldn’t work and so I’ve provided them with their “anything.” that they asked for… Not my issue if you don’t want to see pro sprint opinions but you don’t have to respond to them either if you just don’t like them.

11040

> 2533274943854776;11032:
> > 2547348539238747;11031:
> > > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > > Debating about the polls is silly. No matter the result of them, they don’t matter. This is a creative medium.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Success in creative mediums is often attained by subverting expectations and giving people something they didn’t expect to love but end up loving.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “Anti sprinters” are convinced replacing sprint with high BMS will do this and no data exists that can disprove this theory.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think I’ve heard and seen many points supporting why one high BMS will definitely not replace sprint and would make Halo worse
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Where? I’ve read a lot of this thread and I’ve yet to see any convincing points along that line.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ve got no intention of repeating myself on this… I already given you 27 points that I’ve provided and yes I do address why one BMS is not the answer. But if you couldn’t/didn’t read it the first time it’s doubtful you’d catch it this time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I said convincing points.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How about you try reading them then this time instead of blowing them off? I mean, I know how incredibly bias you are on this issue towards sprint but you never addressed any of those points, such as the one you literally just asked me to provide. If you don’t want (or know how) to read them how about you just keep your comments about them to yourself. If you’re going to try to declare that there’s no evidence to support that one BMS wouldn’t work for Halo then you should equally be able to accept the fact that there’s also no evidence to support the opposite.
> > > >
> > > > And for the record, all of your opinions about sprint that I’ve read on here are certainly no more convincing than anyone else’s.
> > >
> > >
> > > You need to stop linking those “27” points and that Josh Holmes article. Like now.
> >
> >
> > Several of us have addressed the “27 points” post. I don’t see a reply to the counter arguments though.
>
>
> That’s what I’m saying. SiN is always linking these things like: “Someone please counter-argue!” and we do. And then he doesn’t respond.

Because I’ve already responded back to you and to OG Nick, and others multiple times when asked to defend why I think sprint should stay… Plus the last time that I responded to your criticisms of my pro sprint stance (which you asked me for in the first place) you actually disappeared and never responded.

All some people want to do is to argue back with their own anti sprint opinions and get really heated about it while doing it. It’s an endless loop of “this is why I think you’re wrong,” “no actually I’m not because…” OG Nick literally argued with someone that they weren’t “OG enough,” because that person likes sprint… That’s really not the reasonable, open-minded thinking on the issue that leads to constructive debates anyway if you ask me.

But my pro points are still valid; as are 343i’s points when they advocated for sprint at multiple times.

11041

> 2533274990620516;11038:
> My perspective on balance in terms of sprint is rooted in the fact that sprint is used to activate other Spartan Abilities that can assist in the killing of opponents, including Spartan Charge and Slide. In order to ensure that these 2 abilities cannot be abused and used repeatedly, the functionality of sprint has to be adjusted so that players experience repercussions if they choose to use it. Therefore providing ‘balance’ in the sense that if a player wants to benefit from Spartan Charge or Slide, or just wants to benefit from what sprint is on its own, they will have to deal with the fact that their shields won’t recharge and they can’t fire their weapon. So although you say ‘risk and reward’ is not related to our discussion, I do feel like that is actually what I just described haha. I’m not on the forums enough to know true terminology, and at this point I’m confusing myself because you seem to know a lot more about the terms than I do. If you want to know what I think the definitions are for most video game terms just ask yourself what an average player would think and I’m probably somewhere around there too, since I don’t examine the roles these words play too specifically.

Don’t get me wrong. There’s no “true” terminology. Heck, there’s not even commonly agreed upon terminology. There’s just terminology I don’t like for various reasons, and terminology I’m okay with (and others will disagree). The most important thing is try to get over your terminology: say something besides stringing together fancy words, use examples to open up the meaning, and try to make sure you understand what you mean by the words you use. Everything’s okay as long as you can explain yourself. But it’s not easy. I often talk about “depth”, but if you’d ask me what depth is, I’d struggle to explain.

Anyway, to the point. Spartan Charge and Slide can be activated as soon as you’re up to sprint speed. So, when it comes to use of these abilities, the repercussions of sprint are minimal already. We’re talking about times below two seconds in which your shields won’t recharge and you can’t fire your weapon. If sprint was removed, well, first of all, there’s whole another dicsussion whether Spartan Charge and Slide are abilities worth keeping in the first place. But beyond that, there is nothing preventing the implementation of a delay on them. That is, they could easily be implemented in such a way that you need X seconds of running forward at full speed before you can use them. These abilities could hardly be abused then any more than they can with sprint. And as I already said, the delay is short enough that whether you can shoot or not within that time period is largely irrelevant in gameplay.

> 2533274990620516;11038:
> If everyone was able to run at max speed and shoot at the same time then it would not be a problem, but I suppose the developers just wanted people to choose between fighting or fleeing instead of having both options at the same time. It was a design choice, not a design flaw.

So it is. But then we come to the question whether it is a design choice that adds some nontrivial strategies or skills to the game?

11042

> 2625759425619671;11039:
> > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No I really don’t… They’re completely valid. Plus that person asked to see “anything,” regarding why one BMS wouldn’t work and so I’ve provided them with their “anything.” that they asked for… Not my issue if you don’t want to see pro sprint opinions but you don’t have to respond to them either if you just don’t like them.

11043

> 2533274943854776;11042:
> > 2625759425619671;11039:
> > > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274943854776;11042:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;11039:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274943854776;11029:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10947:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10946:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10945:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10943:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;10942:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535450703392903;10941:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I really don’t… They’re completely valid. Plus that person asked to see “anything,” regarding why one BMS wouldn’t work and so I’ve provided them with their “anything.” that they asked for… Not my issue if you don’t want to see pro sprint opinions but you don’t have to respond to them either if you just don’t like them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No I really don’t… They’re completely valid. Plus that person asked to see “anything,” regarding why one BMS wouldn’t work and so I’ve provided them with their “anything.” that they asked for… Not my issue if you don’t want to see pro sprint opinions but you don’t have to respond to them either if you just don’t like them.

Really? Just an empty quote this time?