The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
10844

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> > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
>
>
> These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
>
>
> What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?

The point of it is a weak (IMO) attempt to dismiss the whole “reinventing the wheel when it wasn’t necessary” phrase that people use so often when they reference how they feel 343 has handled the franchise, then reinforce said dismissal with another analogy from the opposite perspective. Unsuccessfully IMO.

10845

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> > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> >
> >
> > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> >
> >
> > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
>
>
> “Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.

But why make the completely silly and baity Corolla analogy when you could’ve just said that? I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at now that you said it, but relating old Halo to 92 Corolla won’t get you any sympathy from anybody who doesn’t already hold the new Halo to higher regard than the old Halo. It just creates more unnecessary friction between the parties involved.

10846

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> > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> >
> >
> > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> >
> >
> > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
>
>
> The point of it is a weak (IMO) attempt to dismiss the whole “reinventing the wheel when it wasn’t necessary” phrase that people use so often when they reference how they feel 343 has handled the franchise, then reinforce said dismissal with another analogy from the opposite perspective. Unsuccessfully IMO.

I suppose you want to refer to it as weak because of the whole “faster, quicker” part of the analogy. Which would be right, except that the majority of arguments here are in favour of a faster movement speed. The only thing is people cant agree if it should be through sprint or through an increase in BMS.

There are two parts to that analogy about 343’s handling of the franchise, and I can tackle them both right now if you want. The first part is the whole “wheel” scenario. Yes, wheels are everywhere. Most forms of transportation have wheels, and they are all purpose objects that are implemented into designs to create reduced friction travel. The only thing is that Halo is not so applicable. Halo is not the prime shooter of the gaming universe, and the only real distinction it has is being the first major, Arena, multiplayer focused FPS on console. A very precise title, IMO. Tsassi, the monitor who was also quoted in this discussion, did a wonderful population analysis that revealed some interesting things, Namely, that Halo 2 had the best population retention % of all the Halo games, and the series started trending downwards after that. Which ties nicely into the second part of that ridiculous quote. “Wasn’t necessary”. No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary. Clearly, Reach and Halo 4 wasnt it. But Halo 5 seems to have found a good balance of old and new Halo, and (provided you actually believe this, but of course it must be a lie) it shows when Bravo stated that Halo 5 had the best player retention % since Halo 3.

If I wanted anti-sprinters to post on the forums for me, I wouldve asked some of the more combative members to tell me what I like and dont like, as they have claimed for most pro-sprinters. If you want to passive-aggressively answer something i’ve stated, Id prefer if you did it to my specific post, rather than through someone else. Allow me to speak for myself, unless you want to turn into one of those anti-sprinters who believe that anyone that likes sprint is unaware why they enjoy Halo and are pure casuals who jump from franchise to franchise.

10847

> 2533274825830455;10845:
> > 2533274848599184;10843:
> > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > >
> > >
> > > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> > >
> > >
> > > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
> >
> >
> > “Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.
>
>
> But why make the completely silly and baity Corolla analogy when you could’ve just said that? I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at now that you said it, but relating old Halo to 92 Corolla won’t get you any sympathy from anybody who doesn’t already hold the new Halo to higher regard than the old Halo. It just creates more unnecessary friction between the parties involved.

It was to point out that old cars are still completely functional, but people opt to get newer, faster cars to do what they wouldve done with the old cars. The 92 Corolla is supposed to be the analogy of Halo because its the old car, the workhorse that needs to iterate and change to remain viable in the new market of flashy cars. Ill be honest, first car that came to mind was the 92 Corolla because that’s the first car I owned, and Halo was the first major FPS i actually sat through and played.

Cars, like dial up internet, and the wheel, have all been iterated on and changed into fuel efficient, fast vehicles that protect passengers and create less harm for the environment. If car manufacturers followed that same mantra of “It it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, we wouldnt have all the new features that are commonplace in cars now.

10848

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> > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > >
> > >
> > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.

That doesn’t make any sense.

“Bravo stated that Halo 5 had the best player retention % since Halo 3.”

Im sure releasing free DLC on a monthly basis had nothing to do with this.

10849

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> > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
>
>
> That doesn’t make any sense.

How so?

I said that, not tsassi, and I’m not sure what or who you quoted but you should really fix that.

By all means, if you can prove to me that Halo could have stayed at Halo 3 levels of popularity by remaining the same game, then i’ll glady advocate for no sprint in Halo.

10850

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> > > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
> >
> >
> > That doesn’t make any sense.
>
>
> How so?

Why would you go and drastically change things just because you cannot prove that things are not going to stay headed in a good direction? Especially when there is nothing pointing to it going poorly any time soon?

My job is going great. But I cannot prove that it will continue to go well forever. Does that mean I should go out and get a new job right now? No. I would wait until things start to go south(if and when they do).

10851

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> > > 2533274848599184;10846:
> > > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
> >
> >
> > That doesn’t make any sense.
>
>
> if you can prove to me that Halo could have stayed at Halo 3 levels of popularity by remaining the same game, then i’ll glady advocate for no sprint in Halo.

Because sprint is the only difference between H5 and H3 lol?

10852

the sprint is a big inovation of halo, its good how is

10853

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> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274990620516;10765:
> > > > > > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
> > > > >
> > > > > With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
> > > > >
> > > > > CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.
> > > >
> > > > Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.
> > > >
> > > > There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.
> >
> >
> > A combination of thrust and slide could act as an out of combat movement speed different to BMS which would be increased and lets not firget crouch walking which again varies movement speeds, sprint isn’t a requirement for a Halo to succeed, theres two sayings that spring to mind when I think of Halo its “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, Halo had a succesful fomula and a distinct identity that worked and was succesful, this should have been retained and expanded on, Bungie veared off track and rather than get back on it 343 through some dynamite on there, H5 has repaired some of the damage but Halo is in the middle of an identity crisis, not helped by a dev that continues to peddle out poorly functioning games and until they get back to the core roots of what made Halo so appealing to begin with nothing will change for this community and sales will continue to dwindle.
>
>
> I speak to familiarity of move speeds as in an alternate move speed not tied to general BMS. Most other games mentioned have varied joystick movements as well as other forms of movement. By no means do we need sprint, but it is in the game. The thing is, 10 different people will tell you 10 different things about what is a “requirement” for Halo to succeed.
>
> And what if I was to say that it was broke and needed fixing? Theres no proof to show that Halo 3 levels of popularity could be maintained in this franchise, and therefore they changed some parts of it. “No need to reinvent the wheel”. I always hated that quote. People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it? The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.

You can innovate and still retain and be respectful of the core mechanics and certain gameplay aspects that are fundamental to Halo, the problem with 343 and especailly Halo 4 is that it didn’t, the changes weren’t born out of innovation it was changes that were made simply to try to and appeal to a completely different fanbase, Reach did this also but to a much lesser extent, is it any wonder that Halo 5 tried to go back to its Arena roots and has seen better player retention for it ? They need to build on and refine that and I think dropping sprint for H6 would be a wise decision.

Just to add i like halo 5 and think sprint is as well implemented as its going to be but I still think Halo is better without it.

10854

I like most of what H5 brings to the table. I like change. I don’t want Halo to stagnate. I want 343 to keep trying new things.

Sprint just does not work well in games with long kill times.

10855

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> > > > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
> > >
> > >
> > > That doesn’t make any sense.
> >
> >
> > How so?
>
>
> Why would you go and drastically change things just because you cannot prove that things are not going to stay headed in a good direction? Especially when there is nothing pointing to it going poorly any time soon?
>
> My job is going great. But I cannot prove that it will continue to go well forever. Does that mean I should go out and get a new job right now? No. I would wait until things start to go south(if and when they do).

Halo 2 had better population retention than Halo 3. Thats not considered a poor trend?

10856

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> > > > > 2547348539238747;10824:
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;10822:
> > > > > > > 2547348539238747;10821:
> > > > > > > > 2533274990620516;10819:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274795123910;10795:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274990620516;10770:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;10766:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274990620516;10765:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.
> > > > >
> > > > > There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.
> > >
> > >
> > > A combination of thrust and slide could act as an out of combat movement speed different to BMS which would be increased and lets not firget crouch walking which again varies movement speeds, sprint isn’t a requirement for a Halo to succeed, theres two sayings that spring to mind when I think of Halo its “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, Halo had a succesful fomula and a distinct identity that worked and was succesful, this should have been retained and expanded on, Bungie veared off track and rather than get back on it 343 through some dynamite on there, H5 has repaired some of the damage but Halo is in the middle of an identity crisis, not helped by a dev that continues to peddle out poorly functioning games and until they get back to the core roots of what made Halo so appealing to begin with nothing will change for this community and sales will continue to dwindle.
> >
> >
> > I speak to familiarity of move speeds as in an alternate move speed not tied to general BMS. Most other games mentioned have varied joystick movements as well as other forms of movement. By no means do we need sprint, but it is in the game. The thing is, 10 different people will tell you 10 different things about what is a “requirement” for Halo to succeed.
> >
> > And what if I was to say that it was broke and needed fixing? Theres no proof to show that Halo 3 levels of popularity could be maintained in this franchise, and therefore they changed some parts of it. “No need to reinvent the wheel”. I always hated that quote. People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it? The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
>
>
> You can innovate and still retain and be respectful of the core mechanics and certain gameplay aspects that are fundamental to Halo, the problem with 343 and especailly Halo 4 is that it didn’t, the changes weren’t born out of innovation it was changes that were made simply to try to and appeal to a completely different fanbase, Reach did this also but to a much lesser extent, is it any wonder that Halo 5 tried to go back to its Arena roots and has seen better player retention for it ? They need to build on and refine that and I think dropping sprint for H6 would be a wise decision.
>
> Just to add i like halo 5 and think sprint is as well implemented as its going to be but I still think Halo is better without it.

Fundamental to Halo - When you have a community accepted definition of this answer, we can talk.

I stated this earlier, but if you look at Halo 4 and Destiny, there really isnt much difference. I can completely see a Bungie-made Halo 4 being very similar to Halo 4. Was it a failure? Yes. But because of that, we got Halo 5. Which does a good job of appealing to fans outside the Halo franchise. Sure, sprint may seem like a good idea, but theres no proof to show that it would benefit Halo, and therefore, its again up to the devs.

10857

> 2533274848599184;10847:
> > 2533274825830455;10845:
> > > 2533274848599184;10843:
> > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
> > >
> > >
> > > “Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.
> >
> >
> > But why make the completely silly and baity Corolla analogy when you could’ve just said that? I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at now that you said it, but relating old Halo to 92 Corolla won’t get you any sympathy from anybody who doesn’t already hold the new Halo to higher regard than the old Halo. It just creates more unnecessary friction between the parties involved.
>
>
> It was to point out that old cars are still completely functional, but people opt to get newer, faster cars to do what they wouldve done with the old cars. The 92 Corolla is supposed to be the analogy of Halo because its the old car, the workhorse that needs to iterate and change to remain viable in the new market of flashy cars. Ill be honest, first car that came to mind was the 92 Corolla because that’s the first car I owned, and Halo was the first major FPS i actually sat through and played.
>
> Cars, like dial up internet, and the wheel, have all been iterated on and changed into fuel efficient, fast vehicles that protect passengers and create less harm for the environment. If car manufacturers followed that same mantra of “It it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, we wouldnt have all the new features that are commonplace in cars now.

I think that the analogy is weak because, cars have gotten objectively better, but entertaiment hasn’t. So what if I still listen to Led Zeppelin, it’s my favourite band. My favourite movie is Pulp Fiction. You can guess that my favourite game is CE.

What I’m trying to say is that: “Halo needs to evolve” is a fair opinion, but making your game worse just to change(sprint, no splitscreen, H5 story) is not a good idea.

10858

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> > 2533274848599184;10846:
> > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
>
>
> That doesn’t make any sense.
>
> “Bravo stated that Halo 5 had the best player retention % since Halo 3.”
>
> Im sure releasing free DLC on a monthly basis had nothing to do with this.

Im not saying what caused it or why it happened, just the facts. Well facts given by someone who you either dont believe or swear your life to, depending on your side of the argument.

10859

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> > > 2533274825830455;10845:
> > > > 2533274848599184;10843:
> > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > “Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.
> > >
> > >
> > > But why make the completely silly and baity Corolla analogy when you could’ve just said that? I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at now that you said it, but relating old Halo to 92 Corolla won’t get you any sympathy from anybody who doesn’t already hold the new Halo to higher regard than the old Halo. It just creates more unnecessary friction between the parties involved.
> >
> >
> > It was to point out that old cars are still completely functional, but people opt to get newer, faster cars to do what they wouldve done with the old cars. The 92 Corolla is supposed to be the analogy of Halo because its the old car, the workhorse that needs to iterate and change to remain viable in the new market of flashy cars. Ill be honest, first car that came to mind was the 92 Corolla because that’s the first car I owned, and Halo was the first major FPS i actually sat through and played.
> >
> > Cars, like dial up internet, and the wheel, have all been iterated on and changed into fuel efficient, fast vehicles that protect passengers and create less harm for the environment. If car manufacturers followed that same mantra of “It it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, we wouldnt have all the new features that are commonplace in cars now.
>
>
> I think that the analogy is weak because, cars have gotten objectively better, but entertaiment hasn’t. So what if I still listen to Led Zeppelin, it’s my favourite band. My favourite movie is Pulp Fiction. You can guess that my favourite game is CE.
>
> What I’m trying to say is that: “Halo needs to evolve” is a fair opinion, but making your game worse just to change(sprint, no splitscreen, H5 story) is not a good idea.

Worse is subjective, but the objective part of this is that change must occur to not stagnate the franchise. Im just trying to get rid of these “If it aint broke dont fix it” and “Dont reinvent the wheel” comments.

Take Zepp for example. All their music has inspirations, and each album plays slightly differently than the last. I love AC/DC, but after a while I get tired of the fact that all their songs sound the same. Thats the iteration we’re talking about.

All im saying is that change is necessary. Combining “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “dont reinvent the wheel” is the opposite of that.

Edit: Ill clarify. I think Halo 4 was too much of a change, too fast. By no means was it a bad game, but besides the story of the campaign, it wasnt exactly the Halo 4 I was looking for. Halo 5, to me, is the perfect small iteration on Halo 3 to make it just new enough but also similar to the older Halos.

10860

> 2533274848599184;10859:
> > 2533274943854776;10857:
> > > 2533274848599184;10847:
> > > > 2533274825830455;10845:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10843:
> > > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > “Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But why make the completely silly and baity Corolla analogy when you could’ve just said that? I completely agree with what you’re trying to get at now that you said it, but relating old Halo to 92 Corolla won’t get you any sympathy from anybody who doesn’t already hold the new Halo to higher regard than the old Halo. It just creates more unnecessary friction between the parties involved.
> > >
> > >
> > > It was to point out that old cars are still completely functional, but people opt to get newer, faster cars to do what they wouldve done with the old cars. The 92 Corolla is supposed to be the analogy of Halo because its the old car, the workhorse that needs to iterate and change to remain viable in the new market of flashy cars. Ill be honest, first car that came to mind was the 92 Corolla because that’s the first car I owned, and Halo was the first major FPS i actually sat through and played.
> > >
> > > Cars, like dial up internet, and the wheel, have all been iterated on and changed into fuel efficient, fast vehicles that protect passengers and create less harm for the environment. If car manufacturers followed that same mantra of “It it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, we wouldnt have all the new features that are commonplace in cars now.
> >
> >
> > I think that the analogy is weak because, cars have gotten objectively better, but entertaiment hasn’t. So what if I still listen to Led Zeppelin, it’s my favourite band. My favourite movie is Pulp Fiction. You can guess that my favourite game is CE.
> >
> > What I’m trying to say is that: “Halo needs to evolve” is a fair opinion, but making your game worse just to change(sprint, no splitscreen, H5 story) is not a good idea.
>
>
> Worse is subjective, but the objective part of this is that change must occur to not stagnate the franchise. Im just trying to get rid of these “If it aint broke dont fix it” and “Dont reinvent the wheel” comments.
>
> Take Zepp for example. All their music has inspirations, and each album plays slightly differently than the last. I love AC/DC, but after a while I get tired of the fact that all their songs sound the same. Thats the iteration we’re talking about.
>
> All im saying is that change is necessary. Combining “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “dont reinvent the wheel” is the opposite of that.

I understand.

10861

> 2547348539238747;10818:
> > 2535429756019039;10817:
> > > 2533274886529017;10791:
> > > > 2535429756019039;10785:
> > > > I am really late to this thread and I don’t know if anyone pointed this out, (not reading 500 pages), but at least 1/4th of the SA would be gone if sprint were removed, slide and Spartan charge cannot be done without it. But in some ways, I kinda hope it does go. I feel as if sprint plays a role in why vehicle play has fallen by the wayside.
> > > >
> > > > If some spartan abilities do stay, even if sprint is gone, It should be clamber and thrust, slide could be still used if 343 made it so that when you thrust and crouch, you slide. I think it would a creative way to add the mechanic without sprint being around and would definitely be seen as unique to me.
> > > >
> > > > honestly though, I am surprised that 343 has not added any kind of classic playlist to 5, I mean, people would play, some might come back even, so why not see if people would actually enjoy it? make it a featured playlist for a week and see what the player turn out if like.
> > >
> > >
> > > And? Why do we need these abilities? What do they do to legitimately enhance or help the gameplay? You can do them without SAs, but why do we even need them?
> >
> >
> > Clamber is also a very useful mechanic as it allows Spartans to move over ledges faster then ever, not only allowing for quick flanking, but also being able to traverse a map faster. Crouch jump is still useful even with clamber around as some jumps need it no matter what.
>
>
> I don’t agree with this. A grav lift, a ramp, a smaller jump. Anything would be quicker than an animation to climb the ledge. Clamber changes the map design to the point where you see clamber points added just to make the mechanic useful.
>
> Halo 5 TruthDon’t know the youtuber, just the first video I looked at. But even then at 1:30 you can see he’s under the bases. He’s faced with two options to get up to the top half of the base. One is a grav lift, the other is a clamber point. He takes the grav lift. On a classical arena designed map. clamber is useless. I watched a few minutes of that gameplay and I didn’t see clamber once.
>
> And that’s a good point there. Most of the abilities just aren’t used. They aren’t used because they aren’t useful in their own right.
>
> Thruster is the one and only ability that adds to the gameplay. You can use it to get in to a fight quicker, or to traverse a section of map. You can use it during a fight to throw off your opponent, and without the potential for abuse or negative impact on map design. Also unlike sprint it doesn’t promote misuses of weapons. Like running around with just the sword on trying to sprint in to an enemy and sword them.
>
> You could tie certain abilities to thruster and have a much less negative effect on the gameplay.
> Crouching while thrusting instead of slide.
> Thrusting then melee instead of charge
> Thrust crouching mid air to fall faster, even do some damage instead of ground pound.
> Many of these do not require the animations, or exaggerated effects that they have. They have them purely for “immersion” and not gameplay reasons.

I don’t know, It think it depends, I mean it also comes down to how 343 uses clamber, look at games like titanfall where you can just hold on to things a pull over them, 343 kinda made it in such a way where there is no other option, they put to much emphases on it, which was not my point if by mistake was made to seem that way. when I look on how faster movement could be done, I truly look to titanfall since it does it in a way where the map does not need to be designed to accommodate it. are maps still designed to use it? yes, but its not as stupidly obvious as it is in Halo 5. I think clamber could be a great mechanic in Halo, but I think some things would have to be done, maybe like making it so you can only do it on flat or near flat surfaces, this would allow crouch jump to be much more used, the other thing would be to just speed up the animation a bit, I mean, its not that slow right now and a small speed up would probably level it out.

As for the other abilities, slide is nice since it allows you to be low to the ground while still moving, its faster to slide into a hole in the wall then crouch walk to it, but again, its could be tied to thrusters or be used when moving at faster the normal speeds, like off a grav lift or being hit in the back by a car. in slide you can still use your gun so I don’t see an issue in that respect.

The reason for the animations would just be to have a smooth transition. I think it would be weird to crouch while moving at fast speed without some kind of slide happening, even if it looks different then normal, you would still be moving forward either way. the animation is just to help others see what your doing and give it a smooth change.

10862

> 2535450703392903;10854:
> I like most of what H5 brings to the table. I like change. I don’t want Halo to stagnate. I want 343 to keep trying new things.
>
> Sprint just does not work well in games with long kill times.

Finally some sense. I’ve been reading pages of kids with nostalgia goggles on. Kids just can’t let it go lol. Good on you, bud!

10863

> 2533274848599184;10855:
> > 2535450703392903;10850:
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> > > > 2535450703392903;10848:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;10846:
> > > > > > 2594261035368257;10844:
> > > > > > > 2533274825830455;10842:
> > > > > > > > 2533274848599184;10835:
> > > > > > > > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No one here can prove or substantiate that Halo could have maintained Halo 2/Halo 3 levels of popularity if it had stayed the same. Therefore, some reinvention was necessary.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That doesn’t make any sense.
> > >
> > >
> > > How so?
> >
> >
> > Why would you go and drastically change things just because you cannot prove that things are not going to stay headed in a good direction? Especially when there is nothing pointing to it going poorly any time soon?
> >
> > My job is going great. But I cannot prove that it will continue to go well forever. Does that mean I should go out and get a new job right now? No. I would wait until things start to go south(if and when they do).
>
>
> Halo 2 had better population retention than Halo 3. Thats not considered a poor trend?

No, because h3 had overall higher numbers. Only one stat trended downwards.

Retention is a stat that’s all about context. A game with an initial playerbase of 10 people and a playerbase of 6 after 4 months will have better retention stats than a game that had an initial base of 100 and a playerbase of 40 after 4 months.