The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
>
>
> Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
>
> Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
>
> With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
>
> CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.

Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.

Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.

There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.

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> > > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
> >
> >
> > Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
> >
> > Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
> >
> > With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
> >
> > CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.
>
>
> Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.
>
> Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.
>
> There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.

Therefore, comparing Halo to other arena shooters is irrelevant. I remember TF2, Quake 4, I know we had arena games on 360. My point was if they didnt work, theres no basis that that exact form of game would work, or that people would enjoy a similar Halo (one with faster BMS, no sprint, etc). Tsassi’s analysis of population trends has shown that Halo 2 had the best pop retention % of Halo games, and theres a downhill trend since then, so really, that core Halo formula wasnt working so well either. Casual gamers flocked to Halo 3, but Tsassi’s analysis notes that the higher number of players came with a large drop off in playerbase (the casual gamer, moving from hype game to hype game)

The “backlash” to CoD moving Sci-Fi is only currently apparent, but both Advanced Warfare, Black Ops 3 and even the earlier Black Ops 2 all have pretty large sci-fi influences, and yet they still sell incredibly well. Im not currently aware of the population retention % numbers for CoD, but I’m sure that its up there. Titanfall launched without a campaign, and a small number of maps. While still incredibly popular for a new game, it was definitely not going to compete with CoD. However, we did see a large niche audience who loved Titanfall 2, so much so that EA greenlit a sequel.

Sprint isnt a pull at CoD fans only. Its a pull at everyone. Its a fairly universal game mechanic for shooters, and a fairly universal human action. BF, Titanfall, Crysis, CoD, Borderlands, however you slice it, they all include sprint. Games like Gears, Overwatch, hell even CS have a focus on an alternate movement speed or abilities that creates a difference between BMS. In the top played games of the Xbox Store (of which Halo 5 currently sits at 15th), it would be the only shooter without sprint had it been in the style of Halo 3. Games have “sprint” now. As in, an alternate, out of combat, movement speed that allows for map traversal and generally linked to other abilities. Not just CoD. Its that familiarity that the casual gamer needs. There has always been a portion of our fanbase that has wanted sprint. And a large portion of gamers who wondered why we never had sprint. Seeing an increasing decline with that standard “core” formula, Bungie tried to change the game up with Reach, and now we have arrived at 5, arguably the best mash up of “core” and “modern” Halo we’ve seen.

Theres no evidence to suggest that core Halo would have succeeded here, as there is no evidence that modern Halo is pushing Halo to reverse its population and sales trend (unless, like me, you believe Bravo when he says Halo 5 has better retention than both Reach and 4). All we have left is personal opinion. Except, when I see people treat pro-sprinters as mindless casuals who dont understand what they want or why they like sprint, and assume that somehow their personal opinion is the only valid one, I start preferring that we keep sprint.

I will state, as I have stated before. I prefer Halo with sprint, but I am not going to leave the franchise or stop playing it if they remove sprint and take it back to Halo 3. I see Halo 3 as a 7/10 on the “fun meter”, and Halo 5 has a solid 9/10.

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> > > > > > > Wrong, you need two movement speeds to add variation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Why?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. You don’t need sprint to accomplish this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Changes encounters.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So does strafing, jumping, crouching, nades, and your own map movement creativity. Sprint doesn’t add anything of significance to encounters.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yea but I like this way of doing it better, in addition to all of those other ways you mentioned. It also changes when I know someone saw me around a corner and I can vary my speed so I don’t pop out exactly when they are expecting.
>
>
> Don’t just sprint, stop, then sprint, throw off the timing.

What exactly are you referring to?

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> > The simple fact is that they wanted to give players the option to fight or flee, or the ability to get from one place to another quicker if they needed to. They’re giving players more choices, so I don’t see how that’s a problem. And it’s a very reasonable feature to modernize the franchise given the state of the entire FPS genre, sprinting is basically expected at this point in any FPS release.
>
>
> This seems imprecise, where do we draw the line between what maintains and what doesn’t maintain the flow? Sprint certainly doesn’t with players being unable to fire at maximum speed, creating a previously nonexistent difference between transit and combat.
>
> Also to the bolded part: it has been discussed numerous times that sprint simply doesn’t make transit any quicker. If the map designer wants it to take at least 8 seconds from A to B, it will take at least 8 seconds regardless of if the game has sprint. Minimum transit times are irrelevant in the sprint discussion because they are entirely independent of sprint.

I claim that sprint maintains flow because it maintains balance. If players were able to fire while at maximum speed, then there would be no drawback to sprinting 100% of the time. The player must choose if they want to fire their weapon and attack an enemy or move quicker and get into cover faster, therefore a balance of strategies and combat choices.

And I have to disagree with your point about sprint not making transit quicker. If player A was to just push their left stick forwards and player B was to push their left stick while pushing it in, player B would get where they’re going faster. I guess I might just be confused with the point you’re making if that’s not what you were going for.

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> > > > > > > Wrong, you need two movement speeds to add variation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Why?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. You don’t need sprint to accomplish this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Changes encounters.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So does strafing, jumping, crouching, nades, and your own map movement creativity. Sprint doesn’t add anything of significance to encounters.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yea but I like this way of doing it better, in addition to all of those other ways you mentioned. It also changes when I know someone saw me around a corner and I can vary my speed so I don’t pop out exactly when they are expecting.
> >
> >
> > Sprinting around a corner doesn’t really add variability though. If anything it’s like saying “Hey here I am, shoot me!” because you CANNOT shoot back before taking a good amount of damage. This is the mentality of someone who is a rampant spartan charge user, and yes I do it too because it’s easy and hardly punishes you. You may say, “Well I sprint then jump so I get a long flight path” or something to make it look deep and thoughtful, but in actuality you never needed sprint to do this in the first place since all you would have needed to do without sprint is time the jump well. Now, this is not the major issue with sprint, and while yes I am of the mindset it doesn’t add to the encounters, I would rather sprint be removed for other reasons not somehow it changes encounters in mid-fight, which it DOESN’T.
> >
> > I know this attempt at changing a situation is a bad one because your shield do NOT recharge while sprinting. So if someone shoots you and you keep sprinting, if they chase and you try to turn around and jump at them, you will lose the majority of encounters. You may be saying “Yeah, but how does it work without sprint? How do I turn and surprise people?” I’m glad you asked Jimmy. In older Halo games you could navigate the maps at full speed, backwards (like a real super soldier :open_mouth: ). This meant you could turn and put damage into an opponent that was following, you could throw nades, you could do any number of different manuvers other than, sprint > jump or sprint > jump > thruster, OR my favorite sprint > RKO OUTTA NOWHERE (spartan charge). Again this isn’t a major issue with sprint, but in the grad mix of things it does not significantly add to encounters, it simply enables players to escape from bad situations easier.
>
>
> Don’t just sprint, stop, then sprint, throw off the timing.

You could do this without sprint with the same effects.

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> > > > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
> > >
> > >
> > > Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
> > >
> > > Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
> > >
> > > With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
> > >
> > > CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.
> >
> >
> > Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.
> >
> > Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.
> >
> > There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.
>
>
> Therefore, comparing Halo to other arena shooters is irrelevant. I remember TF2, Quake 4, I know we had arena games on 360. My point was if they didnt work, theres no basis that that exact form of game would work, or that people would enjoy a similar Halo (one with faster BMS, no sprint, etc). Tsassi’s analysis of population trends has shown that Halo 2 had the best pop retention % of Halo games, and theres a downhill trend since then, so really, that core Halo formula wasnt working so well either. Casual gamers flocked to Halo 3, but Tsassi’s analysis notes that the higher number of players came with a large drop off in playerbase (the casual gamer, moving from hype game to hype game)
>
> The “backlash” to CoD moving Sci-Fi is only currently apparent, but both Advanced Warfare, Black Ops 3 and even the earlier Black Ops 2 all have pretty large sci-fi influences, and yet they still sell incredibly well. Im not currently aware of the population retention % numbers for CoD, but I’m sure that its up there. Titanfall launched without a campaign, and a small number of maps. While still incredibly popular for a new game, it was definitely not going to compete with CoD. However, we did see a large niche audience who loved Titanfall 2, so much so that EA greenlit a sequel.
>
> Sprint isnt a pull at CoD fans only. Its a pull at everyone. Its a fairly universal game mechanic for shooters, and a fairly universal human action. BF, Titanfall, Crysis, CoD, Borderlands, however you slice it, they all include sprint. Games like Gears, Overwatch, hell even CS have a focus on an alternate movement speed or abilities that creates a difference between BMS. In the top played games of the Xbox Store (of which Halo 5 currently sits at 15th), it would be the only shooter without sprint had it been in the style of Halo 3. Games have “sprint” now. As in, an alternate, out of combat, movement speed that allows for map traversal and generally linked to other abilities. Not just CoD. Its that familiarity that the casual gamer needs. There has always been a portion of our fanbase that has wanted sprint. And a large portion of gamers who wondered why we never had sprint. Seeing an increasing decline with that standard “core” formula, Bungie tried to change the game up with Reach, and now we have arrived at 5, arguably the best mash up of “core” and “modern” Halo we’ve seen.
>
> Theres no evidence to suggest that core Halo would have succeeded here, as there is no evidence that modern Halo is pushing Halo to reverse its population and sales trend (unless, like me, you believe Bravo when he says Halo 5 has better retention than both Reach and 4). All we have left is personal opinion. Except, when I see people treat pro-sprinters as mindless casuals who dont understand what they want or why they like sprint, and assume that somehow their personal opinion is the only valid one, I start preferring that we keep sprint.
>
> I will state, as I have stated before. I prefer Halo with sprint, but I am not going to leave the franchise or stop playing it if they remove sprint and take it back to Halo 3. I see Halo 3 as a 7/10 on the “fun meter”, and Halo 5 has a solid 9/10.

A combination of thrust and slide could act as an out of combat movement speed different to BMS which would be increased and lets not firget crouch walking which again varies movement speeds, sprint isn’t a requirement for a Halo to succeed, theres two sayings that spring to mind when I think of Halo its “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, Halo had a succesful fomula and a distinct identity that worked and was succesful, this should have been retained and expanded on, Bungie veared off track and rather than get back on it 343 through some dynamite on there, H5 has repaired some of the damage but Halo is in the middle of an identity crisis, not helped by a dev that continues to peddle out poorly functioning games and until they get back to the core roots of what made Halo so appealing to begin with nothing will change for this community and sales will continue to dwindle.

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> > > The simple fact is that they wanted to give players the option to fight or flee, or the ability to get from one place to another quicker if they needed to. They’re giving players more choices, so I don’t see how that’s a problem. And it’s a very reasonable feature to modernize the franchise given the state of the entire FPS genre, sprinting is basically expected at this point in any FPS release.
> >
> >
> > This seems imprecise, where do we draw the line between what maintains and what doesn’t maintain the flow? Sprint certainly doesn’t with players being unable to fire at maximum speed, creating a previously nonexistent difference between transit and combat.
> >
> > Also to the bolded part: it has been discussed numerous times that sprint simply doesn’t make transit any quicker. If the map designer wants it to take at least 8 seconds from A to B, it will take at least 8 seconds regardless of if the game has sprint. Minimum transit times are irrelevant in the sprint discussion because they are entirely independent of sprint.
>
>
> I claim that sprint maintains flow because it maintains balance. If players were able to fire while at maximum speed, then there would be no drawback to sprinting 100% of the time. The player must choose if they want to fire their weapon and attack an enemy or move quicker and get into cover faster, therefore a balance of strategies and combat choices.
>
> And I have to disagree with your point about sprint not making transit quicker. If player A was to just push their left stick forwards and player B was to push their left stick while pushing it in, player B would get where they’re going faster. I guess I might just be confused with the point you’re making if that’s not what you were going for.

He means in terms of higher BMS and maps purposefully designed for that new movemment speed, for example things like the initial power weapon grab wouldn’t be any slower as rushing for the grab with sprint in halo 5 as the maps and the weapon positions on those maps would be relative to the new movement speeds.

Halo 3 was purposefully slower paced but play CE and tell me that game is slow paced without sprint, its anything but. The idea that sprint is essential to increase the speed of the gameplay is entirely false.

10831

I like sprint, keep it. I have no problem with it. Just dont add wall running!

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> I claim that sprint maintains flow because it maintains balance. If players were able to fire while at maximum speed, then there would be no drawback to sprinting 100% of the time. The player must choose if they want to fire their weapon and attack an enemy or move quicker and get into cover faster, therefore a balance of strategies and combat choices.

How do you define “flow”? To me, “flow” in this context describes the ability of players to perform tasks without interruption. I get the impression that you’re using “flow” just as a superfluous synonym for “balance” here.

But then, how do you define “balance”? As far as I’m concerned, balance is a relative quality. Two objects are balanced with respect to each other if neither neither offers an inherent advantage over the other. For example, if we have weapons A and B, then for a player with weapon A there always exists a viable strategy to beat a player with weapon B. So, sprint maintains balance relative to what? Obviously we have some conflicting definitions here, so you need to tell me more explicitly what you mean by using less ambiguous words.

However, I must ask, why must there be drawbacks to sprinting? In previous Halo games we ran at maximum speed all the time and could fire our weapons. What problems did that system cause to the “balance of strategies and combat choices”? What do you even mean by “balance of strategies and combat choices”?

> 2533274990620516;10827:
> And I have to disagree with your point about sprint not making transit quicker. If player A was to just push their left stick forwards and player B was to push their left stick while pushing it in, player B would get where they’re going faster. I guess I might just be confused with the point you’re making if that’s not what you were going for.

No, you see, originally you said “the ability to get from one place quicker if they need to”. Well, “quicker” than what? I guess this could refer to quicker than base speed, but if this is the case, why do you talk about this like it’s some special thing? Sure, at base speed you can get between places quicker than by crouch walking, but why would you crouch walk in the first place? Of course you crouch walk if you don’t want to be seen, but the fastest available speed is the default mode of transit here. The fastest available speed is always the default mode of transit. When you have sprint, it is the default mode of transit.

So, sure, in your example, player B would get to their goal faster than A, but why would A choose not to sprint if they want to get there fast? This is the problem with “it gets you to places faster”: it’s a trivial feature. Obviously running at maximum speed gets you to places faster than not running at maximum speed. This has always been the case in Halo. There’s nothing special with sprint here. It has always been possible.

So, because the “quicker than base speed” interpretation of “quicker” made no sense to me, I obviously assumed that you meant “quicker than in previous Halo games”. But there, the movement speed is irrelevant because maps can be arbitrarily scaled in such a way that it takes a specific time to get from point A to point B.

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> > > > > > > > > I’d just like to point out that Doom, despite being multiplatform, has not had success in the market. Neither in sales or in population.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It being used as comparison to a “successful” FPS is ludicrous. Most sprint arguments are made because people want Halo to reach Halo 3 levels of popularity. Otherwise, they’d be subjective and opinionated and therefore makes arguments like this irrelevant. Doom has not reached Halo 5 levels of popularity, so using it as a benchmark for what Halo can be is wrong.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No, but we can use its high BMS as an example of what we want. Doom may have failed for other reasons but people aren’t complaining about the BMS.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BMS is one part of your issue. Give it as an example of what we want, but the majority of comments list either Overwatch or Doom as a “successful FPS that doesn’t have sprint”. Neither of which are fair comparisons. Ill leave Overwatch for now, but it should be fairly apparent as to why it is not comparable. But DOOM is neither successful nor highly played anymore. Sure, it had a large following right out of the gate, but it has since fallen extremely far in sales charts and population charts. It didnt make as much money as people on here thought it would, it didnt keep a population, and it is therefore not something to benchmark Halo’s success on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here’s a small thing though, or couple.
> > > > > > Whenever the question of “Other FPS games without sprint” comes up, it boils down to Criterias of what counts or not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The real question asked is pretty much: Name a succesful high rated full of content FPS game with a multiplayer component which aren’t any of the game you’re going to list based on more criterias and excuses I’m adding later so they do not count.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I doubt even a succesful full content Original Halo Clonr lile game would count for some arbitrary reason.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I can name many FPS games without sprint. However, except for Doom, most of them contain some form of alternate speed map traversal.
> > > > >
> > > > > If Doom had come out and been highly successful, like most people on here said it would be, this wouldnt be valid. I would gladly have claimed defeat and backed off. But clearly Doom hasnt been successful. And therefore we are back to having no successful games to compare Halo to.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Halo was one of those games with forms of alternate traversal. Teleporters? Man Cannons? Anyone remember those?
> > >
> > >
> > > We still have those.
> >
> >
> > Yeah but they’re never used anymore. Name me one arena map that has a teleporter in it. Name me one arena map not named tyrant that has a man cannon in it (Even then the man cannon in tyrant is only really used for aesthetic purposes._
>
>
> BTB uses teleporters. Id consider standard Arena maps too small to use teleporters for. I mean, whats the point of map and weapon control if the enemy can just walk into a teleporter and then now they flank you. Halo 5 was stated to be highly focused on the competitive side of Halo. Teleporters dont really add to competitive gameplay.

Who ever said they had to be competitive? Weren’t we just talking about different ways to traversal the map? Besides there have been plenty of competitive maps that use one or both of the movement options. (Wizard and ascension are the ones that come to mind). Also why do you assume that teleporters have to provide flanking routes to power weapons? I mean in some scenarios sure they should do that but more times then not they could just teleport you to a different side of the map. Teleporters to can add to the the competitive gameplay IF implemented correctly.

10834

I think the obvious thing to do for Halo 6 would be to accommodate the needs of Halo fans as well as the Bungie fans. So, keep all the abilities everyone liked in Halo 5, put them in Halo 6, but create some kind of “classic” playlist in multiplayer, so that there’s no sprint, spartan charge, ground pound or ADS, but only in the classic playlist. That way, people who just enjoy the game can play, and the more conservative Bungie-era fans can play the classic playlist.

10835

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> > > > > > > > > > Removing sprint would remove realism from the game.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Overwatch has a large focus on mocement abilities.
> > > >
> > > > Hell the soldier character even has a sprint ability does he not? The current most popular Arena FPS (CS:GO) has two movement speeds. Knife speed and gun speed. Knife speed allows people to move around the map at a faster rate, with the drawback of not having their gun ready. Seems familiar…
> > > >
> > > > With your mention of Doom and Halo’s player base, I can’t help but notice that Overwatch is about as MOBA as an shooter can get. Sure there is an audience past sprint. But as of right now, traditional Arena FPS games aren’t super popular, at least on console. Doom wasn’t very popular on consoles.
> > > >
> > > > CoD players would move to Halo if it suited them. CoD is strating to trend in a sci-fi direction. They don’t move to Halo now because, despite what so many on the forums think, CoD and Halo play completely differently. Halo is still largely skill based, and is much harder than games like CoD.
> > >
> > >
> > > Doom MP has never been popular on consoles though. Doom 3 released in 2004 on consoles with online MP. It doesn’t have the name recognition on Consoles for having a strong MP. Not many Arena titles got any attention on consoles even during Halo 2 and Halo 3. We’ve had Arena titles. Some big ones too.
> > >
> > > Halo CE - 3 made Arena FPS titles on consoles work for, and be much more accessible to the console market. The old Halo games are the only Arena FPS that have ever done very well on consoles. That unique experience and brand recognition worked in its favour. Unfortunately both seem to be weakening with every release.
> > >
> > > There was a huge backlash at COD’s move towards sci-fi. COD players don’t want Sci-fi. Crysis and Titanfall are evidence of this (and Killzone didn’t really take off despite Sony’s best efforts). Titanfall had identical gunplay as COD and that still wasn’t enough. And no they don’t like the more skill based gameplay of Halo. That’s why it baffles me we think sprint can lure them in. This was on of the goals with sprint and the like, to “make Halo more accessible to a wider audience” that really means COD players, because no one outside of COD players really care about these features. In order to actually entice the larger player base of COD over to Halo, Halo would have to make further sacrifices for them. That’s not a future I want.
> >
> >
> > Therefore, comparing Halo to other arena shooters is irrelevant. I remember TF2, Quake 4, I know we had arena games on 360. My point was if they didnt work, theres no basis that that exact form of game would work, or that people would enjoy a similar Halo (one with faster BMS, no sprint, etc). Tsassi’s analysis of population trends has shown that Halo 2 had the best pop retention % of Halo games, and theres a downhill trend since then, so really, that core Halo formula wasnt working so well either. Casual gamers flocked to Halo 3, but Tsassi’s analysis notes that the higher number of players came with a large drop off in playerbase (the casual gamer, moving from hype game to hype game)
> >
> > The “backlash” to CoD moving Sci-Fi is only currently apparent, but both Advanced Warfare, Black Ops 3 and even the earlier Black Ops 2 all have pretty large sci-fi influences, and yet they still sell incredibly well. Im not currently aware of the population retention % numbers for CoD, but I’m sure that its up there. Titanfall launched without a campaign, and a small number of maps. While still incredibly popular for a new game, it was definitely not going to compete with CoD. However, we did see a large niche audience who loved Titanfall 2, so much so that EA greenlit a sequel.
> >
> > Sprint isnt a pull at CoD fans only. Its a pull at everyone. Its a fairly universal game mechanic for shooters, and a fairly universal human action. BF, Titanfall, Crysis, CoD, Borderlands, however you slice it, they all include sprint. Games like Gears, Overwatch, hell even CS have a focus on an alternate movement speed or abilities that creates a difference between BMS. In the top played games of the Xbox Store (of which Halo 5 currently sits at 15th), it would be the only shooter without sprint had it been in the style of Halo 3. Games have “sprint” now. As in, an alternate, out of combat, movement speed that allows for map traversal and generally linked to other abilities. Not just CoD. Its that familiarity that the casual gamer needs. There has always been a portion of our fanbase that has wanted sprint. And a large portion of gamers who wondered why we never had sprint. Seeing an increasing decline with that standard “core” formula, Bungie tried to change the game up with Reach, and now we have arrived at 5, arguably the best mash up of “core” and “modern” Halo we’ve seen.
> >
> > Theres no evidence to suggest that core Halo would have succeeded here, as there is no evidence that modern Halo is pushing Halo to reverse its population and sales trend (unless, like me, you believe Bravo when he says Halo 5 has better retention than both Reach and 4). All we have left is personal opinion. Except, when I see people treat pro-sprinters as mindless casuals who dont understand what they want or why they like sprint, and assume that somehow their personal opinion is the only valid one, I start preferring that we keep sprint.
> >
> > I will state, as I have stated before. I prefer Halo with sprint, but I am not going to leave the franchise or stop playing it if they remove sprint and take it back to Halo 3. I see Halo 3 as a 7/10 on the “fun meter”, and Halo 5 has a solid 9/10.
>
>
> A combination of thrust and slide could act as an out of combat movement speed different to BMS which would be increased and lets not firget crouch walking which again varies movement speeds, sprint isn’t a requirement for a Halo to succeed, theres two sayings that spring to mind when I think of Halo its “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel”, Halo had a succesful fomula and a distinct identity that worked and was succesful, this should have been retained and expanded on, Bungie veared off track and rather than get back on it 343 through some dynamite on there, H5 has repaired some of the damage but Halo is in the middle of an identity crisis, not helped by a dev that continues to peddle out poorly functioning games and until they get back to the core roots of what made Halo so appealing to begin with nothing will change for this community and sales will continue to dwindle.

I speak to familiarity of move speeds as in an alternate move speed not tied to general BMS. Most other games mentioned have varied joystick movements as well as other forms of movement. By no means do we need sprint, but it is in the game. The thing is, 10 different people will tell you 10 different things about what is a “requirement” for Halo to succeed.

And what if I was to say that it was broke and needed fixing? Theres no proof to show that Halo 3 levels of popularity could be maintained in this franchise, and therefore they changed some parts of it. “No need to reinvent the wheel”. I always hated that quote. People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it? The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.

10836

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> BTB uses teleporters. Id consider standard Arena maps too small to use teleporters for. I mean, whats the point of map and weapon control if the enemy can just walk into a teleporter and then now they flank you. Halo 5 was stated to be highly focused on the competitive side of Halo. Teleporters dont really add to competitive gameplay.

A teleporter is nothing but a doorway that directly (i.e. without an intermediate hallway) connects two parts of a map that would be physically impossible to connect directly by other means. Saying that teleporters don’t add anything to competitive gameplay is like saying doorways don’t add anything to competitive gameplay: completely ridiculous.

10837

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> > > > > > > > > > I’d just like to point out that Doom, despite being multiplatform, has not had success in the market. Neither in sales or in population.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It being used as comparison to a “successful” FPS is ludicrous. Most sprint arguments are made because people want Halo to reach Halo 3 levels of popularity. Otherwise, they’d be subjective and opinionated and therefore makes arguments like this irrelevant. Doom has not reached Halo 5 levels of popularity, so using it as a benchmark for what Halo can be is wrong.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No, but we can use its high BMS as an example of what we want. Doom may have failed for other reasons but people aren’t complaining about the BMS.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BMS is one part of your issue. Give it as an example of what we want, but the majority of comments list either Overwatch or Doom as a “successful FPS that doesn’t have sprint”. Neither of which are fair comparisons. Ill leave Overwatch for now, but it should be fairly apparent as to why it is not comparable. But DOOM is neither successful nor highly played anymore. Sure, it had a large following right out of the gate, but it has since fallen extremely far in sales charts and population charts. It didnt make as much money as people on here thought it would, it didnt keep a population, and it is therefore not something to benchmark Halo’s success on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here’s a small thing though, or couple.
> > > > > > > Whenever the question of “Other FPS games without sprint” comes up, it boils down to Criterias of what counts or not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The real question asked is pretty much: Name a succesful high rated full of content FPS game with a multiplayer component which aren’t any of the game you’re going to list based on more criterias and excuses I’m adding later so they do not count.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I doubt even a succesful full content Original Halo Clonr lile game would count for some arbitrary reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can name many FPS games without sprint. However, except for Doom, most of them contain some form of alternate speed map traversal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If Doom had come out and been highly successful, like most people on here said it would be, this wouldnt be valid. I would gladly have claimed defeat and backed off. But clearly Doom hasnt been successful. And therefore we are back to having no successful games to compare Halo to.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo was one of those games with forms of alternate traversal. Teleporters? Man Cannons? Anyone remember those?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We still have those.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah but they’re never used anymore. Name me one arena map that has a teleporter in it. Name me one arena map not named tyrant that has a man cannon in it (Even then the man cannon in tyrant is only really used for aesthetic purposes._
> >
> >
> > BTB uses teleporters. Id consider standard Arena maps too small to use teleporters for. I mean, whats the point of map and weapon control if the enemy can just walk into a teleporter and then now they flank you. Halo 5 was stated to be highly focused on the competitive side of Halo. Teleporters dont really add to competitive gameplay.
>
>
> Who ever said they had to be competitive? Weren’t we just talking about different ways to traversal the map? Besides there have been plenty of competitive maps that use one or both of the movement options. (Wizard and ascension are the ones that come to mind). Also why do you assume that teleporters have to provide flanking routes to power weapons? I mean in some scenarios sure they should do that but more times then not they could just teleport you to a different side of the map. Teleporters to can add to the the competitive gameplay IF implemented correctly.

Because Halo 5 is focused on being competitive. BTB uses teleporters and man cannons, and thats because its unranked.

A few pages back people were talking about how predictability was a big part of old Halo, and that sprint has changed that. Teleporters added to the unpredictability. Also, the focus on verticality in Halo 4, with clamber, ground pound, etc, would be greatly exaggerated by man cannons. Keeping arena as clean and devoid of teleporter and man cannons is how to make it as competitive as possible.

10838

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> > > > > > Sin do you occupy the same universe as the rest of us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There have been many proposed solutions. H5 is as good as sprint gets. It sucks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint CANNOT work with Halo, or you’re compromising zoning, engagements, and pacing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no in-between.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah and in the real world you don’t just get your way just because you want something. You don’t win debates either by going into them thinking you’re 100% right without being able to consider the other side’s point of view.
> > > > >
> > > > > My point is that sprint can and DOES work in Halo and has worked over the past 3 AAA Halo titles… Maybe it hasn’t work out well enough for you or a few others who seem to be dead set in your anti sprint ways, but that doesn’t mean that sprint hasn’t worked. Your post implies that the community agrees with you but that isn’t true either… This isn’t an issue where the entire community agrees one way or the other either; which you can clearly see that tons of people do want to keep sprint.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think that sprint cannot work for Halo that’s just your opinion. My point is that there can be multiple solutions to this issue… Including some playlists with sprint and some without. At the very least 343i would be able to gauge how popular sprint really is inside the Halo community versus hearing a bunch of back and forth about opinions from a few players in threads such as these.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why do you think sprint has and is working?
> > >
> > >
> > > First- I have often stated and defended my own position that sprint has been and is still working for Halo. Either way the Otis is going to fall on anti-sprinters to justify why they want to see sprint removed because sprint has been in Halo over the past 3 AAA installments to the Halo franchise… Not saying that anti sprinters haven’t been providing opinions on this issue either but those are still opinions nonetheless (though some anti sprinters have tried to aggressively assert their opinions as fact which I do thoroughly disagree with) The mere notion of, “should sprint be taken out,” would be the proposed change at this point, not the other way around.
> > >
> > > Second here is a link to a post where I’ve provided a multitude of reasons (27 points) supporting why sprint is good for Halo; including why it has been and still is working for the franchise.
> > >
> > > Third, earlier in this thread I cited and discussed an article where 343i’s Executive Producer Josh Holmes explained multiple reasons why 343i thinks that sprint has been and still is working for Halo. Point is that 343i agrees with pro sprinters regarding why sprint is good for Halo as they have, at multiple instances, fervently advocated why Halo’s developers think that sprint has been and still is good for Halo.
> > >
> > > Fourth I’ve proposed multiple potential solutions to this issue, probably best explained in this post. My point is that Halo fans should truly be trying to search for a compromise here, versus entering this debate with an, “All or nothing,” stance because that isn’t constructive regarding the issue of sprint. Anti-sprinters want to “crush,” or “destroy,” pro sprint opinions (primarily by citing their own opinions against sprint) but that hasn’t really been working; nor is it constructive regarding this issue. Either way to summarize my suggested compromise; what I’ve stated would be to potentially provide playlists with sprint and playlists without sprint in the next Halo title which should be considered as a compromise. Furthermore this would give 343i the best possible method to analyze data to gauge whether most players want to keep sprint or would prefer to see it removed from Halo. That’s a huge step in the right direction towards compromising on this issue either way, versus this “No, I don’t care about what my fellow Halo fans think regarding sprint, I personally just want it OUT,” approach that a few have been pushing for in this thread.
> >
> >
> > 1. All your point supporting sprint “working in halo” is your opinion. It’s fine to have that opinion but for someone who I see constantly getting on others for “stating opinions as facts” you sure do that a lot.
> >
> > 2. It’s not as simple as having some playlists with sprint and some without. The playlist would need seperate maps, different functioning weapons and mechanics. It’s just not feasible.
> >
> > 3. Even if they could somehow do that, it wouldn’t show preference in regards to sprint. The no sprint lists would immediately draw a disproportionatly high skilled playerbase creating a “tryhard” atmosphere which would snowball and drive out population. This wouldn’t show whether people like or dislike sprint in halo.
>
>
> 1) This is an opinionated discussion. The very question of “should sprint stay or go,” opens up this discussion to opinions from the fan base. I’ve been completely open to others using their opinions to support their stance either way on this issue. I’ve also concurred that sources do help but remember that a lot of the said “sources,” such as polls about sprint just boil back down to players’ opinions on this issue. My issue has been where some of the anti sprinters have tried to assert their own opinions as fact and push their opinions to discount and discredit pro sprinters. To do that is arguably lunacy in the first place.
>
> 2) It’s completely feasible to have some “classic,” playlists without sprint whilst having some playlists keep sprint. Not only could this be arguably the most accurate way to assess what players want regarding sprint, but it could easily work in the next Halo game. “Classic,” playlists can work because they have been created many times before in many Halo games over the years.
>
> 3) No way you can assert that it wouldn’t work for 343i to try to cater to what the majority of players want in Halo. And I actually think that sprint playlists would draw in the majority of players regardless; but either way 343i could further utilize feedback tools at their disposal (which they currently do anyways) in order to gauge which types of players prefer using sprint (and why they prefer spring) AFTER giving players the ability to choose between playlists with or without sprint. They could then tweak said playlists to cater to what the fans actually want to see in the next Halo game.

  1. Ok

  2. How would it be feasible? How would they have the dev time and resources to develop what is essentially two different games? Making “classic” playlists is not as simple as turning off sprint. Hell, it seems like a lot of people who dislike sprint don’t really mind the other SAs. Not liking sprint doesn’t mean you want a “classic” experience. It just means you want Halo to more FORWARDS without sprint.

  3. My point is that is is impossible to figure out “what the majority wants”. There are way too many other factors at play. 343 should just make the game the way they feel it plays best. It’s their game.

10839

> 2625759425619671;10445:
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> > This thread is still sprinting forward and onwards I see lol
>
>
> Lolz, but you really mustn’t be so punny about it!
>
> Someone else may just hear you say “sprint,” and cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war once more if you don’t explain yourself… For what it’s worth, I’m whole-heartedly with you on this. I say, “Yeah, sprint onwards to glorious victory my fellow Halo fans!!!”
>
> Matter of fact, sprint until you drop then keep sprinting some more!
>
> Btw, here’s an interesting piece of reading if anyone if curious to hear one of 343i’s developers backing up sprint and explaining how it’s been carefully balanced!

"On offense you can commit to an aggressive push or flank at a slight cost to weapon readiness"-Josh Holmes

That statement is an utter lie. Sprint is only used defensively. The fact that you cant shoot while sprinting puts you at a severe disadvantage in any offensive scenario. The time it takes to draw back your weapon after sprint is to great for sprint to provide any real offensive value. Sprint is 99% of the time used as a defensive tool which draws out medium to long ranged gun fights as the player losing the gunfight can just sprint away in what otherwise would’ve been a fatal error in other games.

I see you want sprint because you like the way it feels. But when something can have such a drastic effect on the rest of the game is it really worth it? There are other ways to make a game feel fast besides adding sprint, you could change the fov, increase bms( which i understand you are against), add secondary moving methods (teleporters, grav lifts, man cannons, vehicles etc). All of the ways mentioned are suitable solutions to counteract the “sluggish” feeling. The upside? They don’t require the game to be built around them

10840

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> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > …whether we all shout about it on here or not lol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I couldn’t agree more on that.
> > > >
> > > > I hope that in time everyone else in this thread can also come to see that; although from what I’ve seen I do personally believe that a lot of people against sprint want to lean on the over-inflation of the issue itself in an effort to try and instigate their desired change to Halo.
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore along those lines, I’ve even heard some anti sprinters argue that the majority doesn’t matter regarding my point that 343i should try to assess who wants to keep sprint and who wants to remove it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah its obviously a very complicated process and as I’ve said before, I just can’t accept that they’re willingly alienating people away from Halo, they must at least have the metrics to back up their decisions. After all its a business and they have bosses they need to explain their decisions to,
> >
> >
> > 1) There were no metrics or data suggesting this game would do anything. Hell, the developer didn’t expect anything.
> >
> > 2) If all you are going to do when designing your game is use metrics and focus groups and rely on “what people expect” then you’re just going to have a ho hum, run of the mill pile of…meh. Which is what halo had been for years now.
>
>
> 1) Creating and selling video games is a business so catering to fan feedback is a business decision. There are tons and tons of metrics and data available to 343i, including how previous Halo titles have sold, how their populations have held up at different points after release, swaths of fan feedback available from the ongoing Halo Community Feedback (HCF) program which has been going on well before Halo 5 released, AND multiple open betas including the open Halo 5 Beta which 343i utilized in order to collect and assess fan feedback to help develop the best possible Halo experience with Halo 5… Did they meet the mark? I like Halo 5, however I admit that’s debatable… Either way 343i certainly had VAST amounts of metrics and data to help them create a game that would cater to fan feedback and expectations and they even tweaked Halo 5 at multiple points during its development because of such data. I would think that most Halo players do actually want 343i to cater to most Halo players when making decisions, such as whether or not they should keep sprint.
>
> 2) Regardless of the fact that you sort of ramble off in this point, it’s untrue. Catering to fan feedback is extremely beneficial in regards to delivering a game that fans want to play. Whether or not the finished product can cater to everyone is another story, but it still doesn’t mean that it’s not a good idea to include fan feedback (including expectations) as a factor during the development of video games. And Halo has still been successful, despite what you think it has become.

“If I would have asked them what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.”
-Henry Ford

When designing a new product you can’t just make it based off of expectations. If you would have asked me before H5 if I wanted slide, thrust, GP, clamber in Halo I would have said hell no. But now, I like them. The same could be true of others with sprint. You’ll never know how a Halo game without sprint would fare in todays market until it is built.

10841

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> > > > > Meh, I like it cos it adds more depth to tactical decisions, such as whether to run or fight, as you don’t recharge shields when sprinting etc. I love how really complex escapes can happen whilst no shields on this game, I love seeing how long I can survive. Yeah they could increase the base movement speed I suppose and it would achieve the same thing, would they do that though? I just don’t see the argument that sprint makes the gameplay worse, it just adds to the variety of encounters Halo offers as far as I’m concerned.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Soooooo… Your argument boils down to escaping bad situations you put yourself, mainly when you shouldn’t (when you’re no shields). That’s exactly why sprint is a bad thing.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, sprint or not I would try escape some situations like that anyway, sprint is just one more tool that enables this. Clamber does the same yet no one whines about that. I just like having options, if I want to fight my way out, which I do the majority of times, I will, I would rather have sprint and not use it than want it and not have it.
> >
> >
> > Bingo… I think that’s a critical and well stated counter to the “pro sprinters just want to escape punishment,” argument… That’s got nothing to do with wanting to keep sprint and even implies that people who want sprint aren’t as competitive. There are multiple reasons why players want to keep sprint and it doesn’t just boil down to an issue where they want to be able to run away from engagement more often.
>
>
> It’s just ridiculous, on one hand they say that people with superior position and shot placement get “punished”, yet on the other say its somehow really easy for them to back around a corner and sprint off. I’m sorry but if you’re letting someone do that, then you HAVENT got a superior position, its as simple as that. I mostly player slayer in Arena (rarely do anything else tbh), and its not even remotely difficult to pin people down so that they can’t just sprint away. There’s literally zero logic in some of these arguments, some people even say the ones sprinting have the advantage at the start of an engagement, SMH, maybe with Spartan Charge but that’s a whole other argument. If you’re not sprinting and your enemy is at the start of an engagement and you die, its your own fault.

His statement isn’t about what occurs in combat. Breaking LoS on an opponent would exist with or without sprint. His statement is in regards to what happens after LoS has been broken. The player fleeing now has an on demand speed increase to quickly exit the area and move to a safer or stronger position until their shields are restored. The player in pursuit has less ability to catch up and finish the fleeing player due to the mechanics of sprint (time needed to reach top speed, lowering of the gun, etc.).

On the flip side, as player quality goes up team setups not only involve controlling strategic map locations, but cutting off escape routes for fleeing players. So that player running away has no safe options to sprint to and recover their shields. However, this still means the game is highly team shot oriented (it is one reason for it). If the player in pursuit could run at the same speed without compromising their ability to fire odds are far higher they wouldn’t require team shot to kill the fleeing player.

By the way, I’m inclined to point out breaking LoS and surviving like this is both easy and common. You can say “just hit all of your shots”. The problem is the SA’s, map design and way players leverage both make this physically impossible to do in many cases. It’s far easier to escape a losing engagement compared to finishing a winning engagement in H5. This is why the game is so team shot oriented. Sprint isn’t the only reason for this but it does play a role.

I will say this particular area isn’t one of the stronger arguments against sprint. It does relate to the other, more compelling arguments against it though.

10842

> 2533274848599184;10835:
> People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?

These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.

> 2533274848599184;10835:
> The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.

What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?

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> > People on the forums clamor for innovation and change, and then go spouting things like “no need to reinvent the wheel”. Which one is it?
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> These sound like two different groups of people to me. The forums are not a hivemind, you know, we have different types of people here.
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> > The problem is that Halo was never a “wheel”. Halo was dial-up, it was a 1992 Toyota Corolla. Can you still use it? Sure. Do you want to, when there is something better, faster, quicker, more fun out there? No.
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> What, exactly, was the point of this analogy?

“Reinvent the wheel” Halo isn’t some all purpose object like a wheel. Its a very specific game, even more specific given its history of consoles and the history of the genre, and treating Halo as some generic wheel that was perfect and never needs iteration or perfection is foolish. Even wheels, as they are, have been iterated on over and over again, and even have different types. Point being, Halo needed to change, even if in some small, iterative form. The combination of “if it aint broke dont fix it” and “no need to reinvent the wheel” means people truly wanted Halo 3.5 every release.

Edit: In regard to the hivemind statement, I am aware of this. However, many people will ask for innovation and change and then speak on how innovative Halo CE-3 were, when in fact they werent. They will then go on to state that Halo should remove most everything different from Halo 3, meaning the “innovation and change” ends up being a different FOV. Secondly, there are so many differing opinions on how sprint should be removed or reimplemented that you have to ask what the point of this thread is. Its simply people objecting opinions onto everyone until both groups are fed up.