I’m amazed this is really such a big issue. Never even payed mind to the whole aspect. The mechanic is cool though, it allows for a changed pace and new experience. Besides, almost every game allows you to sprint now a days. Regardless, if you’re good at the game you’re going to be good with or without it
> 2533274886529017;10480:
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > Agreed however he didn’t have to discuss sprint or address its positive aspects in Halo. He could have just as easily chosen to speak about anything else in Halo 5… I’d argue that he wouldn’t have spoke about sprint at all if it would have been potentially perceived as a “downside.”
>
>
> Yeah, and anything he spoke on would’ve been the upside, even if the downsides came up, it’s obviously they would’ve been spoken about as upsides, as the last link showed.
For for 343i to choose to speak about sprint you’re acknowledging this was an upside? By this logic we both seem to agree upon, “anything he spoke on would’ve been the upside.” 343i’s Executive Producer can speak about whatever he wants- if he chose to speak about sprint and pump it up as he exhilaratingly advocated for in that article then sprint as a whole was perceived to have been an “upside,” by 343i in general… And they would have rationalized that talking about sprint, being that it was an upside, was sure to generate positive PR from that article.
Ergo you’re now admitting that sprint was “the upside.”
> 2625759425619671;10484:
> > 2533274886529017;10480:
> > > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > > Agreed however he didn’t have to discuss sprint or address its positive aspects in Halo. He could have just as easily chosen to speak about anything else in Halo 5… I’d argue that he wouldn’t have spoke about sprint at all if it would have been potentially perceived as a “downside.”
> >
> >
> > Yeah, and anything he spoke on would’ve been the upside, even if the downsides came up, it’s obviously they would’ve been spoken about as upsides, as the last link showed.
>
>
> For for 343i to choose to speak about sprint you’re acknowledging this was an upside? By this logic we both seem to agree upon, “anything he spoke on would’ve been the upside.” 343i’s Executive Producer can speak about whatever he wants- if he chose to speak about sprint and pump it up as he exhilaratingly advocated for in that article then sprint as a whole was perceived to have been an “upside,” by 343i in general… And they would have rationalized that talking about sprint, being that it was an upside, was sure to generate positive PR from that article.
What are you talking about, exactly? What I’m saying is, that to avoid any sort of damage to the game’s success, he’s going to speak solely of upsides involving new, or generally controversial mechanics. The way he brought up sprint (As I spoke on with my earlier response) and acted like giving more defensive options to players was a good thing is exactly what I’m talking about, since it’s not a good thing, but was portrayed as such. Same for somehow saying it gives “more offensive options” when sprinting on its own not only isn’t offensive, but doesn’t accomplish anything more than a BMS would. If anything, it takes away, given you (As another user put it) have your figurative teeth pulled when you sprint before you bite, compared to a BMS where you have a full line of teeth ready to clamp down at any time since you’re not forced to put your weapon down to move at max speed.
> 2533274886529017;10471:
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > Hey so I found this awesome article defending sprint, quoting Josh Holmes himself, 343i Executive Producer
> >
> > Josh Holmes opens with, "Sprint is an action that feels natural in the context of combat…"
> >
> > -I couldn’t possibly agree more… Sorta coincides with exactly what I’ve been saying here in this thread
> >
> > Josh continues to explain, "it makes sense as an action that all Spartans are capable of,"
> >
> > -Hey remember all those things I’ve stated about sprint being: realistic, immersive, even coincidentally true to lore?? Josh agrees that all those things combined merge together to support having sprint in Halo.
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > Josh goes on to say, "it creates opportunities on offense and defense when handled well,"
> >
> > -I guess mastering sprint does add another unique and challenging aspect to Halo’s combat afterall…
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > -As stated before, this is why there is no sprint/shoot in Halo 5- in order to balance, enhance, and fine tune competitive gameplay.
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > Expectations are everything these days which is what I’ve been trying to say… We don’t want our fellow Halo fans picking up a new Halo game just to put it down because it changed the game by trying to remove something as core as sprint.
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > And Josh says, "and it’s something that we want to keep consistent with other modes where it plays an even more prominent role,"
> > -I’ve mentioned this before… Sprint has become a core mechanic of Halo, from which multiple other mechanics now branch off of it.
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > Josh follows with, "Sprint can be used offensively and defensively,"
> > -Another cool way that the developers tweaked Sprint in Halo 5- in an effort to satisfy the majority of gamers (as I’ve always stated)
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > “On offense you can commit to an aggressive push or flank at a slight cost to weapon readiness. On defense, you can try for a rapid retreat but it carries the trade-off of stalling your shield recharge. The key for us has been to balance the potential escapability of sprint with mechanics like shield recharge and sprint ramp-up, while maintaining a sprint mechanic that feels good,” he adds.
>
>
> -SNIP-
>
>
> > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > -Again every aspect of sprint was executed extremely carefully and clearly with much effort and thought put into making sprint cater to the majority of gamers. Could it get even better with the next Halo game?? You betchya, but the dev’s need to be able to get to work figuring out how to make sprint better, not how to take it out.
>
>
> -SNIP-
Didn’t I ask you to focus on Josh Holmes? You’re free to speak about whatever you want to in these forums, but when you quote his article advocating for sprint then proceed to bash 343i developers and their Executive Producer I do expect you to justify that… I was really hoping to see you respond to his article to justify your stance against him too
You can always feel free to PM me to discuss
I added the article to contribute something of value to this discussion, there was no ill-will towards anyone unlike what you’re implying.
> 2625759425619671;10486:
> Didn’t I ask you to focus on Josh Holmes? You’re free to speak about whatever you want to in these forums, but when you quote his article advocating for sprint then proceed to bash 343i developers and their Executive Producer I do expect you to justify that… You’ve turned this back around on me which has nothing to do with that article, does not add value to this discussion, and warrants no response on those points… I was really hoping to see you respond to his article to justify your stance against him too- but (sadly enough) you were “just shooting off from the hip,” once more- by blindly (and wildly) attacking anything you perceive as “pro-sprint,” versus approaching the debate with an open-mind.
>
> Literally ALL you did was go on the attack against me in that reply… Everything you posted was a jab or sneer at me in some way and you completely avoided discussing the article from 343i’s Executive Producer advocating for sprint. Normally that wouldn’t be so much of a problem, yet in this case you’ve done nothing to back up your previous bashing of 343’s developers and their Lead Producer.
>
> Can’t you just be objective enough to add something of value by constructively participating in this discussion?
>
> Are you ever going to just address Josh’s points or are you going to continue this personal vendetta you seem to have against me?
Are you literally serious right now? Did you NOT read what I said? Did you literally just glaze over every point I made? I literally deconstructed every post in that set of paragraphs for both you and Josh, respectfully at that, and you managed take it and twist it into me somehow attacking you, while bashing on 343i devs, citing that it “doesn’t warrant a response”? You kidding? Do me a favor, read it legitimately, and actually COUNTER my points, rather than A.) Taking this randomly personally, even if I don’t mention or reference you once, nor jab at you (Seriously. Nothing in there was a jab.) and B.) Misrepresenting what I say entirely. I’ll quote it below, albeit edited so it can work without your quotes (As they don’t fit), now actually respond this time.
> 2533274886529017;10471:
> Immersion isn’t a valid reason for gameplay inclusion. Never forget that. That is a legitimate opinion, but NOT justification. He can agree on the opinion, but you fail to see it’s not justification. At best, it’s used as a buzzword/term. How does sprint feel natural, when Spartans don’t sprint with their weapons down? A Spartan in lore was once able to use a Mongoose as a shield in one hand, and an SMG in another during a novel, should we be able to lift vehicles and use them to block attacks? No. Because lore based things operate entirely differently than gameplay, and it isn’t a proper comparison, nor a proper reason. Stop using this as a reason.
>
> How does it [Sprint] add anything unique compared to a BMS? It makes you perform the same task as a BMS, but you put your weapon down. And at that, it affects map design, flow, and pacing negatively, unlike a BMS. And why create defensive opportunities? The only reason you’d add that is so people can escape. Something that slows the game down, and makes it less punishing. That’s blatantly admitting its flaws, but saying it as if it’s a positive.
>
> When you have no sprint, you don’t need to tune, balance, or enhance anything, because everything’s laid out for you properly already with a standard base movement speed. You don’t need to balance maps around it. You don’t need to tune weapons around it. You account for one factor, not two.
>
> -“Expectations are everything these days which is what I’ve been trying to say… We don’t want our fellow Halo fans picking up a new Halo game just to put it down because it changed the game by trying to remove something as core as sprint.” - Context, 2016.
> Yeah, but you and him don’t talk about the inverse, where people didn’t pick it up because they DID introduce such mechanics, or mechanics with a similar negative impact. Reach sold more than Halo 3, but had a population decline much more steep than Halo 3’s, and they needed a patch halfway through 2011 that fixed problems competitively, such as bloom, armor abilities and, surprise, sprint, because people rightfully complained. That’s not going on about Halo 4, nor even Halo 5. The expectations spoken about here are for the general player. People who pick up games and drop them just as quickly, with no real interest in the title itself or how it should work. These expectations are not for actual Halo fans, those who engross themselves in the game and its classic, competitive, but fun nature.
>
> And it [Sprint] wasn’t always, before. As I said last night, Halo, competitive Halo especially has been non-sprint, longer than it has been sprint based. And the abilities in the game don’t NEED sprint to work. That point’s been disproved and isn’t valid. You can have the abilities without sprint.
>
> To add to that, what about modes where it [Sprint] doesn’t/shouldn’t play a role, such as highly competitive modes? Consistency’s a bad argument, especially given how past Halo games handled a variant of sprint that affected the game in a worse manner. It was a core part of Reach, yet still maintained in a way where some playlists didn’t have it when the 2011 Title Update hit.
>
> [Sprint can be used] Offensively? How? You can’t use it offensively bar running to a position quicker, which isn’t even offensive on its own. It’s not used in actual combat, bar Spartan Charge, a problem that only exists because of sprint. And again, the majority of gamers stated aren’t Halo players they’re part of the overarching casual shooter genre. WHY satisfy people who aren’t dedicated to your game or its long term success? There isn’t one. And you shouldn’t lose your identity and cater to people who won’t care a year out. Satisfy your core audience, not the focus groups.
>
> But past that, an aggressive push doesn’t involve sprint. It involves pushing the enemy back via gunfights and kills, same for a flank, which isn’t at its core offensive. Watch competitive Halo 5. No “push” in CTF ever involves using sprint to rush forward. It involves actual combat. But bar that, this obviously didn’t work, given people still run, and reaching terminal velocity takes less than a second, meaning other abilities that impact movement kick in almost instantaneously. That’s discounting the quick shield regen in this game, too. Escape is still super easy, a point which he brings UP. Rapid retreat. WHY rapid? You shouldn’t be able to retreat any faster than the speed at which you can fight at while moving forward. That’s proper balance, and it’s what a BMS brings, and what sprint takes out.
>
> But HOW was it [Sprint] executed carefully? What did the effort and thought [In its development and conception] bring us? Does it actually benefit the game, or have consequences most people don’t see? And again, why does it need to cater to “the majority of gamers”, most of which won’t even play the game after a month when the new CoD comes out? Why can’t it cater to Halo players? Sprint was never included in older titles. Worked super successfully, to the point where player retention was insane, even in the third year following Halo 3’s release compared to every Halo after it, something which has been acknowledged by 343i in a (IMO) skeptical statement on Halo 5’s own player retention.
> 2533274886529017;10487:
> > 2625759425619671;10486:
> >
>
>
> 1) Are you literally serious right now?
>
> 2) Did you NOT read what I said? Did you literally just glaze over every point I made?
>
> 3) I literally deconstructed every post in that set of paragraphs for both you and Josh, respectfully at that
>
> 4) and actually COUNTER my points
>
>
> > 2533274886529017;10471:
> > -SNIP-
The point is taken.
> 2625759425619671;10482:
> > 2533274795123910;10472:
> > > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > > -Original article from Josh Holmes, 343i’s Executive Producer advocating for sprint in Halo-
> >
> >
> >
> > .
>
>
>
> 1) "The dear Josh Holmes brought nothing new to the table,"
>
> I realize he didn’t technically bring anything “new,” to the table as that article is actually old now. Thing is I doubt any of us have actually read the article so I posted it hoping to add something to this particular discussion.
>
> By “makes sense for a Spartan to do,” and your additional questions regarding his statement, I think he’s summarizing on those issues so it would be hard for him to respond to your additional questions prompted by his pro sprint stance. After-all he probably would have had to have written a book to have adequately and thoroughly answered all of your follow on questions (He was conducted an interview, not writing a novel). Although I will say that I’ve discussed this multiple times in this thread and you’re free to discuss the combined effects of realism, immersion, and coincidental “true to lore,” aspects that sprint provides to Halo as a core gameplay mechanic.
>
> Bringing up this point doesn’t seem make sense from you, "If you have 100 players out of which 60 jump ship due to changes in the new game, and out of the 40 left 30 like a mechanic. Sure, ‘most players like the mechanic’, or did we take the time to probe the 60 ship jumpers?"
>
> -While the point itself is valid, logical, and a good point in and about itself- it isn’t applicable to sprint and its effects in Halo. 343i has yet to officially poll gamers regarding their opinions on sprint… There is no way to know for sure if anyone will jump ship from Halo depending on sprint in the next Halo. I’d further argue that removing sprint now (which is a change) after how much it has become ingrained into Halo would actually cause the effect that you just described there.
>
> I agree with you when you said, "Carefully balanced: That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an impact on the game."
>
> -However I’ll argue that doesn’t really negate the point… The point is that since 343i developers spent such time and care to balance sprint in an effort to support and enhance competitive gameplay, the result is that sprint doesn’t hurt the balance of combat in Halo; it now serves to add to that balance.
>
> No offense, but I’m assuming you’re joking when you ask, "Then again, does he have actual data?"
>
> -He’s the Executive Producer for 343 Industries. I’m sure he has more actual data that just about anyone (save for Frank O’Connor and possibly Bonnie Ross) on Halo’s gameplay and population; including analyzed results from Halo Community Feedback (HCF) polls that routinely gauge and assess how the community feels about Halo and its gameplay mechanics (such as sprint).
>
> I hate to do that, but I have to echo the same reply to this point from you as well:
> "Halo player expectation:
> It’s fun seeing this motivation when it at some point also was that they don’t really consider community input regarding the implementation or removal of mechanics. But sure, they can use it as a motivation when it does fall in line with their own product."
>
> -He’s the Executive Producer for 343 Industries. I’m sure he has more actual data that just about anyone (save for Frank O’Connor and possibly Bonnie Ross) on Halo’s gameplay and population; including analyzed results from Halo Community Feedback (HCF) polls that routinely gauge and assess how the community feels about Halo and its gameplay mechanics (such as sprint). I’m repeating this because 343i spends an enormous amount of time, effort, and resources into hosting open betas for their games and collecting and analyzing valuable player feedback via the HCF polls. They wouldn’t do any of that if they “don’t really consider community input.”
The article contains a link to Team Beyond, which I’m not a member of and for some reason that particular page does not open for me. The article itself isn’t an interview, is it an interview on Team Beyond? Because the only thing I’ve sometime reads, when it wanted to co-operate, was a strikingly similar forum post of his regarding the implementation of sprint, so if the article is referencing that, it’s not an interview.
I’ve touched upon the subject of immersion in this thread before, it’s a difficult described and defined word that in the end is up to the user to decide how things are experienced, even then, I doubt they could influence what they experience as immersive or not, unless they tried really hard not to.
I remember reading, or hearing, an explanation of de-scoping a long time ago. Essentially a security system in place to quickly automatically pull the user out of scope and engage in any potential nearby hostile who may have inflicted the damage.
Suddenly our half ton shielded titanium clad enhanced humans are flinching when shot by standard bullets.
Question is, how many who think sprinting is immersive, wouldn’t think non-sprinting wouldn’t be immersive if the explanation to no sprint would be something like:
“The Gen-2 armor is a highly advanced armor which allow the user to reach high velocities, compensating physical motions required by the body to otherwise reach high speeds, i.e sprint, while allowing the user to keep their weapon up and maintain full accuracy”
Even if they were for some reason bound to the lore, it wouldn’t mean anything in regards to the gsmeplay, because they create the lore as well.
The 100 players point, it was perhaps poorly worded. The initial point wasn’t that 60 players left because of a mechanic, the same mechanic 30 of the remaining players like, but that they leave for whatever changes are made, perhaps the mechanic, perhaps some other change. They may actually like the mechanic, but left because of something else.
When Josh says “general Halo player”, who exactly is he talking about? And if they haven’t officially polled, how can say that if he has no official source to back it up with? Is he talking about all 100 players? The 40 that are left?
I didn’t once say that sprint caused a mass fallout, and I really doubt that a removal would result in a mass fallout either. I believe the general gamer is more interested in an awesome game than attracted to a game by mechanics in said game.
No, I’m not joking. What is the data his sitting on? How is it relevant to what he claim? How has he interpreted the data and is it an accurate interpretation of the actual case? Is the data reliable, good or proper enough to allow an accurate interpretation of how things are?
The HFC surely is an impressive program, I’m not going to go in discussing what it has contained due to the agreement. However the point wasn’t that they don’t listen to the community, it was that they’ve said they do not take the community’s input on adding / removing player mechanics. They’ll tweak them and balance them, not remove or add, based on feedback.
Lastly, I don’t think anyone bashes i343 for trying to balance sprint. They do just not agree with the impact it has on the gameplay, they don’t think it adds to whatever they’re looking for.
> 2625759425619671;10486:
> 1) Yes, I explained why I’m serious. I get it- you… don’t… like… sprint… Only difference between you and all the other people who don’t like sprint is that I can and do want to constructively debate this issue with the rest of them… There’s one other person that fits into the same category as you and out of respect to them I won’t name drop but you two are literall impossible to try to reason with. You are- because you two do not care one bit what pro sprinters have to say - you want sprint removed because it’s what you want and no force on heaven or earth (depending on what you believe in anyway) is ever going to sway either of you ONE BIT in your stance. You’ve told me multiple times that I’m “wrong,” for my pro sprint stance… No more wrong than you, but if you really feel that way about the issue then why even get into this debate? The purpose of this debate is to discuss sprint and we must do so constructively and with an open mind. As I’ve told you before, I’m not going to sit here and try to tell you you’re wrong in your anti-sprint stance- so lay off me why don’t you, and stop trying to convince me why I’m wrong… If that’s what you want to talk about just PM me versus derailing the thread to attack me.
>
> 2) I’ll be perfectly honest with you… No, I certainly did not read everything you said- though I didn’t “glaze over,” it either. I read more than enough to see exactly what you did- and I asked you what, 2 maybe 3 times before you posted that to just justify your stance against Josh Holmes and the 343i developers as you bashed them in your initial reply to that article. What did you do?? Continue to go on the offensive against me and deny if you want to- but you continued to misquote me after I asked you about 4x or 5x to quote me properly if you want to reply to me.
>
> 3) Very little (if any) of what you said in your reply had anything to do with Josh’s article- that’s the issue. (Yep, cutting it right here, read below.)
>
> 4) Yeah, no way- at least not in this thread… And don’t expect further replies from me either (I’ll ask the same from you though I know I probably won’t get it). I could easily counter your points… Because all you did was aggressively pop off again without taking time to think about it before you posted it. But I have no intention of continuing to spiral off-topic into a useless and non-constructive argument with someone who has zero ability to be subjective regarding this issue.
1.) First, stop making it out like I’m micro-aggressing you. I’m debating with you about a gameplay mechanic and how it’s objectively changed the game, or functions at a base level. As I said with the other user, that requires a lot of confirmatory terminology, and on top of that, it’s the discussion thread, which is going to open up debates. And debates are constructive as long as they aren’t disrespectful and done properly. I’m not derailing the thread by doing so, nor attacking you. Note for example, I haven’t called you a single name, nor used caps lock for anything but emphasis on a certain word.
And bar that, I haven’t told you you’re wrong for your stance. I’ve told you that you’ve been wrong for individual points (How sprint affects pacing), or how you USE individual points (Immersion as justification). Again, pro-sprint stances are fine, given the proper reasoning behind it. I’m not arguing the stance, I’m arguing some of the reasons behind them. Bar that as well, if I didn’t care about what you said, then I wouldn’t be arguing in the first place, let along quoting you word for word and responding. I want sprint removed, sure, but there’s a reason that I’ve been quoting you guys and responding, rather than just making a one off, toxic comment saying sprint sucks in response to you, then never coming back again.
I’m not being impossible to reason with, on top of that, I’m just debating with you. It’s going to feel like a wall, because you need to push your points, and you need to push them properly, or else you’re not going to knock down said figurative wall.
2.) I never once misquoted you. Don’t know where you’re getting this from. Unless you refer to me taking the quotes out of my gigantic response, which I stated the reason behind. And what offensive did I take? I never mentioned you once, didn’t bash anything, nor did I imply anything negative about anyone. I justified my stance and that’s why I specifically wanted you to reread it, because each paragraph held a portion of what I think. It wasn’t written out of raw emotion. Didn’t need to be.
3.) I need to cut you off prematurely there. Every single post detailed what he and you said. That’s flat out wrong if you think that it had “nothing to do with Josh’s article”. I quoted each segment of yours and his interview/argument/whatever, and responded. It was very relevant to the article and to what you said in the same breath, defending it. How did that turn into me somehow having a vendetta (Which is actually a vengeful feud, rather than just a feud) against you? However, out of morbid curiosity, why don’t you try and explain how it had no relevance to what you and him said? Explicitly.
4.) I spent approximately 50 minutes in between the time you posted that interview and your defense of it, and the time I posted my response writing this down. I spent a lot of time thinking it through with careful consideration into each post. It wasn’t some 10 minute thing that I just popped out. I spent legitimate time countering your points with what I think about sprint and what Josh Holmes said about it, which is, contrary to what you seem to think (making us spiral off topic) completely on topic with the thread. This is sprint discussion. You discussed Josh Holmes’ sprint defense, I countered the points to what you posted. And the thing is, it’s very constructive. I didn’t just write my side, I asked you questions in between and prefaced them with my side first, so you got how I asked them, and what I thought initially. It’s not like I’ve been one sided entirely in this, I’ve been trying to spark sprint discussion with more questions so the ball keeps rolling, rather than stopping at my foot.
4B.) The thing is too, the use of “subjective” as a defense or reason as to how I’m somehow being a hardhead, or stubborn in my ways, is just misguided. I have the ability to be subjective, and I’ve said, repeatedly that it’s fine to like sprint, but to argue against or deny its actual flaws is the bad thing. And that’s exactly it. You, and other users I’ve had to make that point to, need to make the distinction between actual subjectivity, and objectivity.
> 2625759425619671;10486:
> By the way base upon what I observed way back when we played together, I must say that you used sprint flawlessly (In Warzone, at least…)
I don’t get what this is supposed to imply. The gametype plays out over a large map, and I rarely use vehicles. I’m going to NEED to sprint to get to objectives or bosses. It’s not “flawless use”. It’s just using it as the gametype requires. I wouldn’t be anywhere as successful as I was/am if I didn’t sprint.
> 2533274795123910;10489:
> > 2625759425619671;10482:
> > > 2533274795123910;10472:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10450:
> > > > -Original article from Josh Holmes, 343i’s Executive Producer advocating for sprint in Halo-
>
>
> 1) The article contains a link to Team Beyond, which I’m not a member of and for some reason that particular page does not open for me. The article itself isn’t an interview, is it an interview on Team Beyond? Because the only thing I’ve sometime reads, when it wanted to co-operate, was a strikingly similar forum post of his regarding the implementation of sprint, so if the article is referencing that, it’s not an interview.
>
> 2) I’ve touched upon the subject of immersion in this thread before, it’s a difficult described and defined word that in the end is up to the user to decide how things are experienced, even then, I doubt they could influence what they experience as immersive or not, unless they tried really hard not to.
>
> 3) I remember reading, or hearing, an explanation of de-scoping a long time ago. Essentially a security system in place to quickly automatically pull the user out of scope and engage in any potential nearby hostile who may have inflicted the damage.Suddenly our half ton shielded titanium clad enhanced humans are flinching when shot by standard bullets.
>
> 4) Question is, how many who think sprinting is immersive, wouldn’t think non-sprinting wouldn’t be immersive if the explanation to no sprint would be something like:
>
> “The Gen-2 armor is a highly advanced armor which allow the user to reach high velocities, compensating physical motions required by the body to otherwise reach high speeds, i.e sprint, while allowing the user to keep their weapon up and maintain full accuracy”
>
> 5) Even if they were for some reason bound to the lore, it wouldn’t mean anything in regards to the gsmeplay, because they create the lore as well.
>
> 6) The 100 players point, it was perhaps poorly worded. The initial point wasn’t that 60 players left because of a mechanic, the same mechanic 30 of the remaining players like, but that they leave for whatever changes are made, perhaps the mechanic, perhaps some other change. They may actually like the mechanic, but left because of something else.
>
> 7) When Josh says “general Halo player”, who exactly is he talking about? And if they haven’t officially polled, how can say that if he has no official source to back it up with? Is he talking about all 100 players? The 40 that are left?
>
> 8) I didn’t once say that sprint caused a mass fallout, and I really doubt that a removal would result in a mass fallout either. I believe the general gamer is more interested in an awesome game than attracted to a game by mechanics in said game.
>
> 9) No, I’m not joking. What is the data his sitting on? How is it relevant to what he claim? How has he interpreted the data and is it an accurate interpretation of the actual case? Is the data reliable, good or proper enough to allow an accurate interpretation of how things are?
>
> 10) The [HCF] surely is an impressive program, I’m not going to go in discussing what it has contained due to the agreement. However the point wasn’t that they don’t listen to the community, it was that they’ve said they do not take the community’s input on adding / removing player mechanics. They’ll tweak them and balance them, not remove or add, based on feedback.
>
> 11) Lastly, I don’t think anyone bashes i343 for trying to balance sprint. They do just not agree with the impact it has on the gameplay, they don’t think it adds to whatever they’re looking for.
-
You know I’m honestly not sure. Maybe you’re right- it might not have been an interview
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Right well I do understand that “immersion” is pretty well subjective to begin with. You’ve given good reasons to support your stance- I feel like I’ve given good reason to support my pro sprint stance but in the end of the day these are just our opinions on the matter after all. I did think it was interesting to read Josh Holmes share my opinion on this, but again just because he agrees with me I understand not everyone will.
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Man I don’t even know where to begin on that one. I absolutely hated flinch- still do. I’m with you 100% against flinch if that’s what you’re getting at.
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Valid argument and well composed. I personally think the most “immersive,” experience would one that feature no flinch/sprint/shoot because why not? Based upon the Spartan super soldier you described that would be the most logical way they should perform in combat. However I also understand that sprint/no shoot is way more balanced and supports competitive gameplay way more. But I’m with you insofar that no flinch/no sprint would also be better than flinch/no sprint. As a side note to that end- it’s for these types of issues that I think that “flinch/sprint,” versus “no flinch/no sprint” polls are basically bogus if people want to and go back to try and pull out one or the other later on- mainly because they’re two separate gameplay mechanics and some people just really hated flinch… So if said poll has tie-ins to flinch with every response people aren’t necessarily voting against sprint at all.
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True and I agree lore should not dictate gameplay- interesting point to remind us that it’s often the other way around. My argument isn’t really to change gameplay based upon lore, it’s granted a weaker argument but I’m suggesting to keep sprint as an existing mechanic because it does fit in with lore. I know that’s not necessarily a popular stance either but it’s how I feel.
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Like others in the thread I actually thought this was a pretty awesome point.
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It’s a broad statement, I’ll give you that. Maybe a bit nick-picky to diffuse it entirely but it makes sense that you don’t buy this point from him. I’m buying it because I like sprint which certainly does make me more bias and less skeptical that someone who would be against sprint. I don’t think it makes his point invalid, but I think it’s subjective enough to be called into question for not being grounded enough if you don’t like sprint.
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Sure I can agree with that. Not sure that this serves to counter keeping or removing sprint but it’s a valid point nonetheless.
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So “joking,” was probably a poor choice of words, I guess I figured there’s no way he couldn’t have the a vast amount of data which you were discussing… Whether he has it or he doesn’t, it’s still certainly possible he wasn’t speaking on the grounds of data about this. I still assume he has a vast amount of data from Halo gamers but I’ve no more way to prove it than you do to disprove it other than the title he holds at 343i.
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Totally with you, I’m never going to discuss the content within the HCF program either. I don’t think it hurts to acknowledge that the program exists- I’ve only mentioned it in order to try and justify the fact that 343i does care indeed about fan feedback. I still think they could add/remove things based upon the community’s feedback but because I can’t speak upon that program I have nothing to refute that point with. Perhaps we can agree it’s at least feasible that 343i could add or remove mechanics based on feedback from the fans, even if they have or haven’t done so at this time? All very skeptical, I know but we can’t really get into the intricacies of this even if we wanted to so otherwise it’s safe to say we will have to agree to disagree on this particular point and just wait and see on this one…
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I don’t think most people bash 343i over sprint. Everyone is different and they vary in the way they express their displeasure with the creators of their favorite franchise.
> 2533274886529017;10491:
> > 2625759425619671;10486:
> > By the way base upon what I observed way back when we played together, I must say that you used sprint flawlessly (In Warzone, at least…)
>
>
> I don’t get what this is supposed to imply. The gametype plays out over a large map, and I rarely use vehicles. I’m going to NEED to sprint to get to objectives or bosses. It’s not “flawless use”. It’s just using it as the gametype requires. I wouldn’t be anywhere as successful as I was/am if I didn’t sprint.
Just a compliment no need to justify your skill with using sprint here.
> 2625759425619671;10493:
> > 2533274886529017;10491:
> > > 2625759425619671;10486:
> > > By the way base upon what I observed way back when we played together, I must say that you used sprint flawlessly (In Warzone, at least…)
> >
> >
> > I don’t get what this is supposed to imply. The gametype plays out over a large map, and I rarely use vehicles. I’m going to NEED to sprint to get to objectives or bosses. It’s not “flawless use”. It’s just using it as the gametype requires. I wouldn’t be anywhere as successful as I was/am if I didn’t sprint.
>
>
> Just a compliment no need to justify your skill with using sprint here.
But there was no skill in my use of it? I don’t get it. I’d understand a compliment on boss killing, but not sprinting. It’s a button press. That’s like complimenting me for clambering.
> 2533274886529017;10490:
> > 2625759425619671;10486:
> >
>
>
> 1.) First, stop making it out like I’m micro-aggressing you.
>
> 2) And bar that, I haven’t told you you’re wrong for your stance. I’ve told you that you’ve been wrong for individual points (How sprint affects pacing), or how you USE individual points (Immersion as justification). I’m not arguing the stance, I’m arguing some of the reasons behind them. Bar that as well, if I didn’t care about what you said, then I wouldn’t be arguing in the first place
>
> I’m not being impossible to reason with, on top of that, I’m just debating with you. It’s going to feel like a wall, because you need to push your points, and you need to push them properly, or else you’re not going to knock down said figurative wall.
>
> I never once misquoted you. Don’t know where you’re getting this from. Unless you refer to me taking the quotes out of my gigantic response, which I stated the reason behind. And what offensive did I take? I never mentioned you once, didn’t bash anything, nor did I imply anything negative about anyone. I justified my stance and that’s why I specifically wanted you to reread it, because each paragraph held a portion of what I think. It wasn’t written out of raw emotion. Didn’t need to be.
>
> 3) I need to cut you off prematurely there. That’s flat out wrong… -SNIP-
>
> 4) I spent legitimate time countering your points with what I think about sprint and what Josh Holmes said about it, which is, contrary to what you seem to think (making us spiral off topic) completely on topic with the thread. This is sprint discussion.
>
> 5) The thing is too, the use of “subjective” as a defense or reason as to how I’m somehow being a hardhead, or stubborn in my ways, is just misguided. I have the ability to be subjective, and I’ve said, repeatedly that it’s fine to like sprint, but to argue against or deny its actual flaws is the bad thing. And that’s exactly it. You, and other users I’ve had to make that point to, need to make the distinction between actual subjectivity, and objectivity.
I don’t know how you do it- I don’t want to reply to you but somehow you say something that essentially puts me into a positive where not responding is about as bad as if I do. To quote Frankie, “-Yoink!- if I do, -Yoink!- if I don’t,” so to speak. I really want to discuss sprint with people constructively; but like I’ve said you’ve demonstrated that’s not what you want to do here- well not with me at least, for whatever reason that might be I honestly don’t know. Me not responding to your every point anymore is not about ignoring you- it’s about trying to avoid an argument that is sure to degrade into something non-constructive that seems to always drift off topic. Like I’ve stated feel free to PM me but I have no intention of getting into any further, “endless loop,” non-constructive arguments with you about sprint. So that said, here’s what I felt prompted to respond to based upon your post.
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No clue what “micro-aggressing,” means but you’re quite overt with most of your aggression. Either way it’s not even your aggression that’s the issue, it’s your unwillingness to be subjective and/or compromise on this issue with me… The aggression certainly doesn’t help make it any more constructive but like I said PM me and be aggressive if you want- Challenge me to a 1v1 if you feel that strongly, I don’t care about your general demeanor in a debate. The issue boils down to the non-constructive way you want to veer off-topic and force your opinions without being subjective time and time again that has honestly made you undesirable to debate with.
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I don’t know if you honestly believe you didn’t tell me several times that I’m wrong for being pro sprint… Or if you want to make it appear that way in a reply on the forums to make yourself look better. I don’t mean that to be offensive because if you sent that to me in a PM then I’d be like “Okay, eye-opening,” but I’m going to have to be skeptical when reading you make yourself out to be neutral now after all the things you’ve said to me in this thread. I don’t feel the need to go back and quote you either- you know what you said to me over the past few days… including something a little ways back about me “giving up every shred of dignity I have left,” or something like that simply for asking you to “agree to disagree,” and leave it alone regarding how wrong you feel that I am in my pro sprint stance. Now look- fine if you really feel that way about me- once again I honestly don’t even take offense to that but that’s something that’s non-constructive that veers off-topic which probably shouldn’t have been said in a genuinely respectful debate about sprint. PM me about it if you want to but trying to discredit me to that degree in this debate about sprint was mind boggling. I’m not asking you to withhold anything - just if you want to take things down a road like that then perhaps a PM is the only proper course of action at that point. I’d appreciate that much more then trying to discredit my stance and not allow me to openly share my pro-sprint opinion here in this thread without being bashed like that.
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I don’t get cut off prematurely (Is that even possible on a forum?) I said what I needed to say and you responded which is the way forums work, or so I think anyway. Also, do you really think it’s a good idea to say, “that’s flat out wrong,” when you just defended yourself by saying you don’t tell people they’re wrong? Since you opened your point by insisting that I’m again just, “flat out wrong,” I’m just going to take the high road and say you must be right. So right I guess the rest of that point doesn’t need to be addressed.
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Okay so I’m not going to try to undervalue the time you spend on the forums. I will say that we both spend a lot of time here and have an equal right to be here. There have been posts of mine that people partially respond to or ignore that I’ve spent no small amount of time and effort on so I sympathize with that notion. But are you implying that I must respond to everything you’ve said to me? To that end, have you responded to everything that I’ve said to you?
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I never called you any names like, “stubborn,” “hard-headed,” nor have I said you’re, “stuck in your ways” I’m sure there’s plenty of stuff you’re subjective about in all the rest of your interactions in life. But in this thread- particularly with the pro sprint opinion you have certain things you refuse to back down upon. Some would see the same thing and just say that you’re an extremely passionate fan and no matter what you’re going after an aspect of the game that you want to see changed…
But that said, insisting that some of us are, “wrong,” for having our pro sprint opinions; just to instead forcefully push your anti sprint opinions back at us as your counter isn’t going to help propel a constructive debate about sprint either. That doesn’t make you hard-headed in general, but it does make you extremely difficult (next to impossible really) to reason with when trying to debate the issue of sprint and its effects on Halo. I’ll give you this much- you’ve been overall better with this than the aforementioned person that also doesn’t like to compromise. At least you never tried to actually force people out of the discussion for giving their opinions which is still far below you just telling just people they’re wrong for having those opinions in the first place.
> 2533274886529017;10494:
> > 2625759425619671;10493:
> > > 2533274886529017;10491:
> > > > 2625759425619671;10486:
> > > > By the way base upon what I observed way back when we played together, I must say that you used sprint flawlessly (In Warzone, at least…)
> > >
> > >
> > > I don’t get what this is supposed to imply. The gametype plays out over a large map, and I rarely use vehicles. I’m going to NEED to sprint to get to objectives or bosses. It’s not “flawless use”. It’s just using it as the gametype requires. I wouldn’t be anywhere as successful as I was/am if I didn’t sprint.
> >
> >
> > Just a compliment no need to justify your skill with using sprint here.
>
>
> But there was no skill in my use of it? I don’t get it. I’d understand a compliment on boss killing, but not sprinting. It’s a button press. That’s like complimenting me for clambering.
You transitioned across the map faster than other people. You genuily moved better than your opposition.
It’s sort of like when Josh Holmes stated that sprint is a skill in and about itself to master- you appear to traverse large spaces on big open Warzone maps at a faster pace than both our teammates and the enemy teams we’ve played against. It put you into position to steal more bosses and to get more kills- particularly during the early phases of games which in turn led to you getting REQs faster than others- particularly the enemy team, so that you could help our team take the advantage. You’re early and often at the top of the leaderboard in 24-person games. People don’t get to the top of the leader board early in Warzone if they can’t use sprint properly, but they often try to rely on vehicles… You don’t need to use vehicles you go on foot instead.
From what I’ve seen at least- a lot of your success was attributed to the way you utilized sprint better than 23 other people in the game. Particularly during the early phases of the game when gaining position and the element of surprise are critical to leveling up in REQs faster than the enemy team. You don’t often use vehicles as the games progress either from what I saw anyway, so the logical assumption to me is that your usage of sprint has to be better than most people.
Does that mean you have to like sprint? Not really- I mean I don’t think we ever played a single competitive game together anyway which is an entirely different ballgame than Warzone… But it is interesting for me to see someone so fervently against sprint when on the flip side you’re also someone who seems to gain a significant edge from using sprint that arguably help you win games. That’s not a jab either, that’s just an observation that I provided since you asked…
> 2625759425619671;10486:
> 1) No clue what “micro-aggressing,” means but you’re quite overt with most of your aggression. Either way it’s not even your aggression that’s the issue, it’s your complete and total inability to be subjective and/or compromise on this issue whatsoever… I don’t care about your general demeanor it’s the non-constructive way you want to veer off-topic and force your opinions without being subjective time and time again that honestly just makes you undesirable to debate with.
>
> 2) I don’t know if you honestly believe you didn’t tell me several times that I’m wrong for being pro sprint… Or if you want to make it appear that way in a reply on the forums to make yourself look better. I don’t feel the need to go back and quote you either- you know what you said to me over the past few days… including something a little ways back about me “giving up every shred of dignity I have left,” or something like that simply for asking you to "agree to disagree," and leave it alone regarding how wrong you feel that I am in my pro sprint stance. (Removed stuff about PMs to fit my quotes)
>
> 3) Also, do you really think it’s a good idea to say, “that’s flat out wrong,” when you just defended yourself by saying you don’t tell people they’re wrong?
>
> 4) But are you implying that I must respond to everything you’ve said to me? To that end, have you responded to everything that I’ve said to you?
>
> 5) I never called you any names like, “stubborn,” “hard-headed,” or say you’re, “stuck in your ways” I’m sure there’s plenty of stuff you’re subjective about in all the rest of your interactions in life. But in this thread- particularly with the pro sprint opinion you have certain things you refuse to back down upon. Like insisting that some of us are, “wrong,” for having our pro sprint opinions; just to instead forcefully push your anti sprint opinions back at us as your counter.
1.) Again, I can be subjective when the post demands it. And there’s a difference between being aggressive, and being firm. I get they can be perceived as similar, but I’ll go back to referencing my lack of name calling, or mocking of you which is aggressive, compared to my firm reinforcement of my points in which I only focus on myself and responding, rather than making venomous jabs. As I said too, when I debate, I will ask questions TO YOU to answer, rather than just giving my side. I’m not solely saying I’m right, then leaving you with nothing to go with. I’m providing material for you to go with and answer in your own way, rather than how I answered.
2.) Found the quote you were referencing, where you requested we agree to disagree, and my response for it. I don’t get if you were just somehow not aware I can look back and quote it, as can you, but here. Do you see anything that can be construed as me saying you’re "giving up every shred of dignity I [you] have left"? Seriously, you call me out on misquoting you, but you literally just tried to make it seem like I said something malicious as heck, when I didn’t do anything but act respectively firm. Yeah, seriously, please don’t do that. It doesn’t help anyone. Quote me, rather than make a vague, incorrect statement that I can just show you the actual quote to disprove. I know what I said, sure, but I don’t think you do.
> 2533274886529017;9814:
> > 2625759425619671;9643:
> > See that’s the issue - if you’re going to come into a debate with, “you’re wrong,” stuck on your mind then how could we ever possibly debate this at all? And although I admittedly feel you’re equally as “wrong,” in your opinion against sprint I’m certainly objective enough to hear you out. Similarly I say it’s fine that you don’t like sprint but I don’t agree with you regarding your perception of sprints effect on gameplay or pacing. Difference is that I’m not going to sit here and tell you that you’re wrong- it’s disrespectful if you feel you’re right. But I’m not going to allow you to tell me that I’m wrong either. Agreeing to disagree makes sense to me, and that’s about as far as we’ll come on this issue.
> > The only thing I truly think you’re wrong about in a debate involving opinions is you telling me that I’m wrong…
>
>
> Except this isn’t an opinion. It’s literally game design. You can’t tell me I’m outright wrong about why I dislike sprint because what I say IS true and not even a matter of opinion. You can entirely go on about whether or not you like the fact as it’s laid out, but you cannot at all disprove, or say I’m actually wrong, because what I say is legitimately right. If you don’t agree with how it affects gameplay, map design, or pacing, then you’re wrong, because it’s been proven in game and outside of it.
>
> I’m not gonna sugar coat it and just go to “Oh, it’s just your opinion, mang”, because it’s more than just that. It’s a fact. And it’s NOT disrespectful to reinforce that. I don’t “feel” like I’m right, I am right. Whether or not you like it is one thing, but to disagree against a fact is just wrong whichever way you look at it. It’s not even a debate at that. It’s just stating how sprint affects the game and why it should be out, not in, because there’s no reason it should be in, be it competitively, or casually bar maybe campaign, where immersion and sandbox ruining weapons/abilities can reign supreme.
2.) HOWEVER, back on track, as I even say here, I never once called you out specifically for liking sprint/being pro-sprint. Even here, I brought up how my issue was not acknowledging factual information on sprint, rather than being pro-sprint as the latter was never my issue with anyone. (You can find this quote on page 491, BTW, both written by me and quoted by you. I didn’t edit this.)
3.) Like I said before, you saying my post had no relevance was flat out wrong, I never said your stance was wrong. Two very different things, and something that’s very evident as I’ve said multiple times that the stance is fine with a proper point.
4.) I’m implying it’s at least respectful to actually respond when I give up an hour of my time to debate with you. By giving you my time I’m showing that you, and your argument’s worth putting effort and thought into to counter. And yes, if you read what I wrote in the past, you’d see that I’ve responded to everything you’ve said.
5.) I didn’t say you called me names, it was just a figurative example provided to give some context because I know my bluntness can be seen as such. But again, I never said you’re wrong for having an opinion or for being pro sprint. In fact, the quotations of me I’ll post below literally contradicts what you say I said. The first can be found in my most recent post to you, and your quote, the other one can be found on page 491, as well.
> 2533274886529017;10490:
> 5) The thing is too, the use of “subjective” as a defense or reason as to how I’m somehow being a hardhead, or stubborn in my ways, is just misguided. I have the ability to be subjective, and I’ve said, repeatedly that it’s fine to like sprint, but to argue against or deny its actual flaws is the bad thing. And that’s exactly it. You, and other users I’ve had to make that point to, need to make the distinction between actual subjectivity, and objectivity.
> 2533274886529017;9818:
> How sprint affects the game isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact. Like it or hate it. It’s a fact. Unarguable. You can like sprint for immersion, but to say it has any positive upside is just a “nope” thing. There are no upsides, nor any reason it should stay, bar campaign immersion.
> 2625759425619671;10496:
> You transitioned across the map faster than other people. You genuily moved better than your opposition.
>
> It’s sort of like when Josh Holmes stated that sprint is a skill in and about itself to master- you appear to traverse large spaces on big open Warzone maps at a faster pace than both our teammates and the enemy teams we’ve played against. It put you into position to steal more bosses and to get more kills- particularly during the early phases of games which in turn led to you getting REQs faster than others- particularly the enemy team, so that you could help our team take the advantage. You’re early and often at the top of the leaderboard in 24-person games. People don’t get to the top of the leader board early in Warzone if they can’t use sprint properly, but they often try to rely on vehicles… You don’t need to use vehicles you go on foot instead.
>
> From what I’ve seen at least- a lot of your success was attributed to the way you utilized sprint better than 23 other people in the game. Particularly during the early phases of the game when gaining position and the element of surprise are critical to leveling up in REQs faster than the enemy team. You don’t often use vehicles either from what I saw anyway, so the logical assumption to me is that your usage of sprint has to be better than most people.
>
> Does that mean you have to like sprint? Not really- I mean I don’t think we ever played a single competitive game together anyway which is an entirely different ballgame than Warzone… But it is interesting for me to see someone so fervently against sprint when on the flip side you’re also someone who seems to gain a significant edge from using sprint that arguably help you win games.
I didn’t though. I moved along predictable paths to reach the bosses present, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. You can take them much easier early on when your teammates don’t bother going for the bosses at all, but just for the enemy’s first outpost. Next to none of what made me successful had to do with sprint, nor did sprint impact me. High level bosses that gave me the most points were killed from long range with Lasers/Rockets, because the area in which you can kill them doesn’t even require you to move quickly, since it’s so wide and open on all sides. And bosses that were low level could be dealt with by the same strategy on a smaller scale, disregarding sprint entirely. Plasma Pistol has insane range for Elites, and Prometheans take half a magazine of BR rounds to shatter their armor. Not much in the grand scheme whenever most common boss spawns are near a REQ center, to provide infinite ammo and additional weaponry. This is all stuff you can do from a range, given the map’s open ended nature, and weapon’s range without running to their position which is pretty much a death sentence, given how lethal most AIs tend to be. There’s next to no rush either, given a slight tap to the nose of any enemy gives you credit, too, in the event there’s a massive teamshot fest going on.
But with that, it was rare that I’d get more than 5 kills per game due to that, since I could just sit in a select area of the map and wait for boss spawns. No need for me to kill people when my team’s slaying. And my REQ use due to this was mainly selfish, because it was largely centered around only killing bosses, over actual players.
My usage of sprint wasn’t “better”, I just knew where to sit and how to time the once predictable boss spawn locations and timers.
> 2533274886529017;10497:
> > 2625759425619671;10486:
> >
>
>
> 1) Again, I can be subjective when the post demands it. And there’s a difference between being aggressive, and being firm…
>
> 2) -SNIP-
>
> 3) HOWEVER, back on track, as I even say here, I never once called you out specifically for liking sprint/being pro-sprint. Even here, I brought up how my issue was not acknowledging factual information on sprint
>
> 4) -SNIP-
>
> 5) I’m implying it’s at least respectful to actually respond when I give up an hour of my time to debate with you. By giving you my time I’m showing that you, and your argument’s worth putting effort and thought into to counter. And yes, if you read what I wrote in the past, you’d see that I’ve responded to everything you’ve said.
>
> 6) I didn’t say you called me names, it was just a figurative example provided to give some context because I know my bluntness can be seen as such. But again, I never said you’re wrong for having an opinion or for being pro sprint. In fact, the quotations of me I’ll post below literally contradicts what you say I said. The first can be found in my most recent post to you, and your quote, the other one can be found on page 491, as well.
> 2533274886529017;10497:
> …Sorry, but you did that, yourself. Sure says a lot about your pride and the lengths you’ll go to defend it. If that’s all you have though, then this mockery of a done to death and back “debate” is done.
I didn’t want to do this, but the actual quote was on page 492 (above) and I was paraphrasing from you because I didn’t remember.
But either way the point is mute- It’s not about who was more right at that point anyway- it’s about “is this off topic?” If anything I didn’t help avoid it, that’s why I’m trying to not get into future heated debates with you about sprint because that is where it seems to head for some reason… And quicker and quicker each time. But look, I can definitely take it I’m not saying you’ve shattered my resolve and hurt my feelings with stuff like that. What I am saying is that I want to constructively debate sprint and the effects it has on Halo so if that above quote is where we seem to end up during our debates then that’s just not very productive or constructive IMO and I’d generally want to avoid that so that I can just participate in this thread with people constructively.
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Shouldn’t it be the other way around though? Like the way I look at debates is that “I can be absolutely firm if the post demands it, otherwise I’m going to be subjective” Versus you stating, “I can be subjective when the post demands it,” which is sort of backwards to the way an open-minded debate is supposed to work, isn’t it? Otherwise I agree with the rest of this point (though I think it has little if anything to do with sprint and its effects on Halo so I’d ask you PM me if you want to continue that discussion)
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(Addressed above point 1)
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Not everything needs to be “factual,” for it to be an insightful discussion point about sprint in this thread. Granted facts and sources do help- I just don’t agree that they need to be demanded for in order to partake in this discussion. I see what you’re saying (I really do) but you have to understand that your anti sprint opinions (such as your own knowledge of game mechanics and level design) is still your opinion… No matter how right you feel that your opinion is that’s still what you met my pro sprint opinions with. What I was trying to interject was the compromise in that scenario was going to be to “agree to disagree,” because I won’t accept you telling me that my pro-sprint opinion was wrong on the basis that you somehow know more than I do about map design and game mechanics… And it went further than that even- you used my time played against me to both mock me for having played that much and to discredit me by claiming, “I can’t believe that a champion has no idea was he’s talking about.” Once more, nothing you met my pro sprint opinions with was definitive or factual- to you it may be simply because that’s what you firmly believe but I don’t see the level design the same way that you do… To you that makes me “dead wrong,” but to me that makes you non-subjective on this issue.
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Dunno where you’re trying to go… Don’t wanna know (no offense). Or sure, you win on this one?
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I’ll have to go back when I get more time then to re-read stuff… Bout to get off and I don’t have the time or energy to even try that post again. If it was presented differently then I would have certainly responded to it immediately but then again it shouldn’t really matter. Plus if you really absolutely MUST get an answer out of me, then there’s always the PM option that I’ve consistently offered up there… Not something I’m asking for either, but it’s not like I ignore people. I always appreciate it when someone chooses to take an argument “offline,” so to speak if it has the potential to go off-topic.
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Well I’m open to going back and re-reading… Usually when someone says something blunt or potentially rude to me I purposefully have a quick memory and forget it. Whether to wash things under the bridge or to just move on. Maybe I could take some time later on to go back and re-read posts if that’s what you’re suggesting.
> 2533274805695837;10483:
> I’m amazed this is really such a big issue. Never even payed mind to the whole aspect. The mechanic is cool though, it allows for a changed pace and new experience. Besides, almost every game allows you to sprint now a days. Regardless, if you’re good at the game you’re going to be good with or without it
Some people are just aware of it’s effect on the game as a whole. Others don’t even notice, they just think, “I can go fast” because they don’t look at it past surface level (not that they’re expected to).
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> > You transitioned across the map faster than other people. You genuily moved better than your opposition.
> >
> > It’s sort of like when Josh Holmes stated that sprint is a skill in and about itself to master- you appear to traverse large spaces on big open Warzone maps at a faster pace than both our teammates and the enemy teams we’ve played against. It put you into position to steal more bosses and to get more kills- particularly during the early phases of games which in turn led to you getting REQs faster than others- particularly the enemy team, so that you could help our team take the advantage. You’re early and often at the top of the leaderboard in 24-person games. People don’t get to the top of the leader board early in Warzone if they can’t use sprint properly, but they often try to rely on vehicles… You don’t need to use vehicles you go on foot instead.
> >
> > From what I’ve seen at least- a lot of your success was attributed to the way you utilized sprint better than 23 other people in the game. Particularly during the early phases of the game when gaining position and the element of surprise are critical to leveling up in REQs faster than the enemy team. You don’t often use vehicles either from what I saw anyway, so the logical assumption to me is that your usage of sprint has to be better than most people.
> >
> > Does that mean you have to like sprint? Not really- I mean I don’t think we ever played a single competitive game together anyway which is an entirely different ballgame than Warzone… But it is interesting for me to see someone so fervently against sprint when on the flip side you’re also someone who seems to gain a significant edge from using sprint that arguably help you win games.
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> I didn’t though. I moved along predictable paths to reach the bosses present, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. You can take them much easier early on when your teammates don’t bother going for the bosses at all, but just for the enemy’s first outpost. Next to none of what made me successful had to do with sprint, nor did sprint impact me. High level bosses that gave me the most points were killed from long range with Lasers/Rockets, because the area in which you can kill them doesn’t even require you to move quickly, since it’s so wide and open on all sides. And bosses that were low level could be dealt with by the same strategy on a smaller scale, disregarding sprint entirely. Plasma Pistol has insane range for Elites, and Prometheans take half a magazine of BR rounds to shatter their armor. Not much in the grand scheme whenever most common boss spawns are near a REQ center, to provide infinite ammo and additional weaponry. This is all stuff you can do from a range, given the map’s open ended nature, and weapon’s range without running to their position which is pretty much a death sentence, given how lethal most AIs tend to be. There’s next to no rush either, given a slight tap to the nose of any enemy gives you credit, too, in the event there’s a massive teamshot fest going on.
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> But with that, it was rare that I’d get more than 5 kills per game due to that, since I could just sit in a select area of the map and wait for boss spawns. No need for me to kill people when my team’s slaying. And my REQ use due to this was mainly selfish, because it was largely centered around only killing bosses, over actual players.
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> My usage of sprint wasn’t “better”, I just knew where to sit and how to time the once predictable boss spawn locations and timers.
I’m not trying to stat check you but typically I’m pretty good at noticing tendencies from my teammates… Maybe not quite so much in Warzone, but people that I play often with that put up big numbers make an impact. I wasn’t telling you all that to blow smoke either- It’s what I saw. Maybe you changed your style of play since then as we haven’t played together in a long time now, but we used to play a lot… And putting up kills/points was something you did well. I wouldn’t normally do this but I had to double check your Service Record juuuust to see. And in going through your last few games, looks like you’ve played a lot of Warzone Assault. I don’t play that gametype often and we only ever played regular Warzone but I’d imagine there are way less kills to be had in Warzone Assault. But the last regular Warzone game you did play you did pretty well- 23 kills with a KDA of 28.3. That’s pretty consistent with what I remember anyway- Regardless that doesn’t look like someone who gets 5 kills per game and just sits there; however what do I know? Sometimes I assume that big numbers early must mean good placement- good placement typically means good maneuvering… And good maneuvering early on in Warzone to gain vantage points is most often accomplished either done via sprint or with vehicles. You don’t use vehicles so that narrowed it down for me- at least from what I remembered.
Josh did make his original explanation on TeamBeyond (which we’ve also already discussed here). Needless to say, you need only look at the following couple pages after that to see people completely destroy his reasoning.