The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> >
> > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> >
> > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> >
> > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> >
> > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
>
>
> Ah, ah, ah, don’t misquote me. I never once called you stupid. I specifically said you lacked an understanding of game and map design to a very intense degree after you said maps had dead space due to a lack of sprint, which isn’t at all true, and DOES display a lack of understanding to a legitimately painful degree. Don’t try to act like that was somehow unprovoked, or undeserving of a tap to the nose, verbally.
>
>
>
>
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> > I don’t get how you can say that seriously. I literally do not get it and for once, I’m actually left speechless. Not only at the painful and cringey lack of understanding, but at the contradiction in the same post. Not only did Halos 1-3 certainly not have intentional, gameplay caused dead space (Bar Burial Mounds due to terrible design, rather than intentionally due to abilities/some external gameplay change), but Reach HAD SPRINT. It was still tuned for it. This just shows a clear lack of understanding of game design, and the ability to argue properly, and I’m not even going to bother with the rest, because that single statement says all I need to know.
>
>
> If I’m explaining something that’s objective in how it operates and normally wouldn’t be argued, then of course I’m going to come off as a “know it all” or “arrogant”. I’m going to be using definite, confirmatory words, since that’s what suits it. And that doesn’t fit well with people who think an argument’s based on an opinion, which is also misguided and HAS led to flawed arguments, such as the few here. I’m not going to sit here and patronize you, I don’t really care to because I’ve said what I want to about this enough, but I will stress that the constant painting of a gameplay inclusion’s reception (due to how it affects the game) as subjective, when how it operates is objective is a big cause of many arguments, because both of the arguments I’ve had here on it ended up boiling back down to “it’s an opinion”, or “it’s just your opinion”, which it isn’t. Whether or not you like it is. But the effects are not.
>
> And I’m going to be brutally honest, when you compare a BMS to sprint, there is legitimately no upside to sprint. You wanna move faster, but have a solid BMS? Why? You move fast enough in the environment due to the scaling of the map in relation to the character you play as. You don’t need to sprint. You want it for immersion? Keep it in campaign, where you fight AI and can immerse yourself, while map scaling isn’t an issue. Everything that can be said for sprint, can be said for BMS, and said better, since a BMS allows for you to keep your weapon up, on top of keeping a consistent, competitive pace.
>
> Did older Halos need sprint? Not at all. Halos following them didn’t either. And it’s only served to homogenize the genre, since Halo lost a part of what made it unique in the crowded shooter market of today.

There is legitimately an upside to sprint, and this is why youre arrogant, and why so many of the pro-sprinters dislike you anti-sprinters. Because there you are again acting like a friggin know-it-all. I’m not going to explain for the thousandth time why there are upsides to sprint, because you are obviously too blinded by bias to see it.

If I implied I was quoting you verbatim, sorry, meant for it to be a paraphrase, because that is legitimately how you came/come off. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and because you have taken a course or 2 in game design it makes you all knowing and inherently better informed, so your point of view is the ONLY correct one. And no, how you responded was unprovoked and unnecessary.

There is some opinion, but even opinions aside there are legitimate positives and negatives to both sides. Just because you choose to ignore the positives of sprint, THAT DO EXIST, and disregard the negatives of BMS THAT DO EXIST, then thats your problem.

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> > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Uh dude BMS has upsides like a lot. You get to places faster and can aim and shoot and run fast at the same time and we don’t have a second button for diffrent movements.
> > >
> > >
> > > Did I say it didnt have upsides? I just said it didnt only have upsides.
> >
> >
> > So what are the downsides ?
>
>
> Look at the post above that one

That doesn’t explain anything with regards to tbe downsides of a higher BMS

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> 2533274913913392;10175:
> There is legitimately an upside to sprint, and this is why youre arrogant, and why so many of the pro-sprinters dislike you anti-sprinters. Because there you are again acting like a friggin know-it-all. I’m not going to explain for the thousandth time why there are upsides to sprint, because you are obviously too blinded by bias to see it.
>
> If I implied I was quoting you verbatim, sorry, meant for it to be a paraphrase, because that is legitimately how you came/come off. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and because you have taken a course or 2 in game design it makes you all knowing and inherently better informed, so your point of view is the ONLY correct one. And no, how you responded was unprovoked and unnecessary.
>
> There is some opinion, but even opinions aside there are legitimate positives and negatives to both sides. Just because you choose to ignore the positives of sprint, THAT DO EXIST, and disregard the negatives of BMS THAT DO EXIST, then thats your problem.

Okay, then. Humor me. What’s a positive to sprint that can’t be done with a simple BMS and doesn’t compromise gameplay integrity, and a downside to BMS that’s as bad as sprint is?

10286

I’d like halo 5 without sprint but with thrusters and high movement speed. That way it leaves room for everyone to have a second movement speed (although just controlled burst), clamber, the hover thing, and slide. Pretty much the new features of SA’s which I like (ground pound is just a cluster for me). I think Halo 5 would play really well with the suggested. On another topic cough projectile weapons. (._. )

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> > > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Uh dude BMS has upsides like a lot. You get to places faster and can aim and shoot and run fast at the same time and we don’t have a second button for diffrent movements.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Did I say it didnt have upsides? I just said it didnt only have upsides.
> > >
> > >
> > > So what are the downsides ?
> >
> >
> > Look at the post above that one
>
>
> That doesn’t explain anything with regards to tbe downsides of a higher BMS

I thought you were referring to a higher BMS with no sprint, which is what I was responding too. In terms of simply a higher BMS with sprint, then how flippin fast would you be sprinting?

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> > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > There is legitimately an upside to sprint, and this is why youre arrogant, and why so many of the pro-sprinters dislike you anti-sprinters. Because there you are again acting like a friggin know-it-all. I’m not going to explain for the thousandth time why there are upsides to sprint, because you are obviously too blinded by bias to see it.
> >
> > If I implied I was quoting you verbatim, sorry, meant for it to be a paraphrase, because that is legitimately how you came/come off. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and because you have taken a course or 2 in game design it makes you all knowing and inherently better informed, so your point of view is the ONLY correct one. And no, how you responded was unprovoked and unnecessary.
> >
> > There is some opinion, but even opinions aside there are legitimate positives and negatives to both sides. Just because you choose to ignore the positives of sprint, THAT DO EXIST, and disregard the negatives of BMS THAT DO EXIST, then thats your problem.
>
>
> Okay, then. Humor me. What’s a positive to sprint that can’t be done with a simple BMS and doesn’t compromise gameplay integrity, and a downside to BMS that’s as bad as sprint is?

How about slide? That is a legitimately good mechanic that I cannot possibly see be done well without sprint. And as I have said for I dont even know how many times, having the third movement speed of sprint adds an additional/different level of strategy not possible with only BMS. Spartan charge also would not be able to be done very efficiently with only BMS (obviously spartan charge isnt the best mechanic, but could do very well with tweaking.)

And simply increasing the BMS cannot ever allow for the increased mobility options offered with sprint. Run-jumping vs walk-jumping for example. And you would obviously have to find the balance of a high enough BMS with a good FOV so you dont feel like a slug like Halo 3.

Because of your negative view of sprint and your awe-inspiring view of high BMS, there is nothing I can say about BMS that you would ever consider ‘as bad as sprint.’

Go ahead, be a jerk. The floor is yours.

And no I wont be surprised if you say ‘you mentioned spartan charge as a positive to sprint. I am speechless. That tells me all I need to know. Youve lost all credibility in my eyes.’

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> > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > >
> > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > >
> > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > >
> > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > >
> > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > >
> > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
>
>
> As I have said before (I will probably say this every time: Im not pro-sprint, I’m not Anti Sprint), sprint allows for an additional/different level of strategy that BMS doesnt. Choosing when or when not to sprint has consequences and must be taken into account. You cant just run around like a chicken with your head cut off.
>
> Sliding is a fantastic movement ability, and also adds to strategy, and there is no way that I know of to logically do it without sprint.

The question when it comes to “adding strategy” for sprint is was that actually ever needed within halo’s original formula, and what it do to compliment those original features/mechanics? Sure, choosing when to sprint adds a layer of strategy in how one should play, but how much skill does it truly take to execute in comparison to the overall map movement provided with just one movement speed (with emphasis on other forms of map movement like nade jumping, teleporters, and skill jumps without clambering), especially when people must sprint to combat the dead zones of maps like Viking or Altar? More options and “strategy” don’t always mean a better game.

Maps that are designed for sprint will inevitably be enlarged in order to preserve predictability of enemy movement and spawning, because otherwise game play will be chaotic and more reliant on luck than skill (destroying the competitive legitimacy of halo). What this soon leads to is the reliance of sprint to efficiently maneuver the map because of bigger spaces and reduction of the individual potential of players (due to the inability to shoot while sprinting). At that point, is the choice between moving or shooting even that meaningful when the game seems to side with mainly the movement side of halo?

Moving on, the skill of moving and shooting from just one movement speed is potentially harder to execute when the BMS is high enough than moving or shooting with the sprint addition because of the greater strafe potential with dodging shots more efficiently during gunfights, and it’s what separated halo’s game play from other FPS shooters. Not only this, but halo isn’t a twitch shooter. CoD and Battlefield do a much better job of punishing mindless sprinters because their time to kill is much quicker than halo, which is what truly introduced the risk/reward with sprint in those games and a true depth of strategy with how much more important those choices were for both moving and shooting, not just moving unlike halo.

Slide is truly not something that many highly regard in halo 5, and its greatest effect on gameplay is enhancing the movement capabilities of thrust-sliding. I’d hardly call that meaningful strategy when such a combination is ideal for every situation in regards to map traversal.

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> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Uh dude BMS has upsides like a lot. You get to places faster and can aim and shoot and run fast at the same time and we don’t have a second button for diffrent movements.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did I say it didnt have upsides? I just said it didnt only have upsides.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So what are the downsides ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Look at the post above that one
> >
> >
> > That doesn’t explain anything with regards to tbe downsides of a higher BMS
>
>
> I thought you were referring to a higher BMS with no sprint, which is what I was responding too. In terms of simply a higher BMS with sprint, then how flippin fast would you be sprinting?

I was but in your response you didnt really explain the negatives to higher BMS just more stated that there are indeed negatives, unless i misread or simply missed it in which case could you clarify on the downsides to a higher BMS no sprint in a Halo game

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> > > > > > > 2533274886529017;10262:
> > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > >
> > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
>
>
> The question when it comes to “adding strategy” for sprint is was that actually was ever needed within halo’s original formula, and what it do to compliment those original features/mechanics? Sure, choosing when to sprint adds a layer of strategy in how one should play, but how much skill does it truly take to execute in comparison to the overall map movement provided with just one movement speed (with emphasis on other forms of map movement like nade jumping, teleporters, and skill jumps without clambering), especially when people must sprint to combat the dead zones of maps like Viking or Altar?
>
> Maps that are designed for sprint will inevitably be enlarged in order to preserve predictability of enemy movement and spawning, because otherwise game play will be chaotic and more reliant on luck than skill (destroying the competitive legitimacy of halo). What this soon leads to is the reliance of sprint to efficiently maneuver the map because of bigger spaces and reduction of the individual potential of players (due to the inability to shoot while sprinting). At that point, is the choice between moving or shooting even that meaningful when the game seems to side with mainly the movement side of halo?
>
> Moving on, the skill of moving and shooting from just one movement speed is potentially harder to execute when the BMS is high enough than moving or shooting with the sprint addition because of the greater strafe potential with dodging shots more efficiently during gunfights, and it’s what separated halo’s game play from other FPS shooters. Not only this, but halo isn’t a twitch shooter. CoD and Battlefield do a much better job of punishing mindless sprinters because their time to kill is much quicker than halo, which is what truly introduced the risk/reward with sprint in those games and a true depth of strategy with how much more important those choices were for both moving and shooting, not just moving unlike halo.
>
> Slide is truly not something that many highly regarding halo 5, and its greatest effect on gameplay is enhancing the movement capabilities of thrust-sliding. I’d hardly call that meaningful strategy when such a combination is ideal for every situation in regards to map traversal.

Some of those things you mentioned can be fixed if they were to increase the BMS while strafing/backpedaling, it doesnt necessarily need to do away with sprint. and sprint does not enlarge all maps, there are many maps from the original 3 halos that are just as big if not bigger than those in their counterpart category in Halo 4 and 5.

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> How about slide? That is a legitimately good mechanic that I cannot possibly see be done well without sprint. And as I have said for I dont even know how many times, having the third movement speed of sprint adds an additional/different level of strategy not possible with only BMS. Spartan charge also would not be able to be done very efficiently with only BMS (obviously spartan charge isnt the best mechanic, but could do very well with tweaking.)
>
> And simply increasing the BMS cannot ever allow for the increased mobility options offered with sprint. Run-jumping vs walk-jumping for example. And you would obviously have to find the balance of a high enough BMS with a good FOV so you dont feel like a slug like Halo 3.
>
> Because of your negative view of sprint and your awe-inspiring view of high BMS, there is nothing I can say about BMS that you would ever consider ‘as bad as sprint.’
>
> Go ahead, be a jerk. The floor is yours.

Past the really needless passive aggressiveness, why not just tie slide to thrust or just basic forward momentum? If you move forward at full torque, then crouch, you slide. If you’re not at full speed, you can crouch. And Spartan Charge was made to specifically stop double melee sprint rushing which was an insane issue with Halo: Reach and Halo 4. If sprint goes, that ability needs to go too, because that ability and its issues are SOLELY caused by sprint, and reward terrible and reckless plays. There’s no reason it needs to be in game, even in a nerfed state if sprint’s gone.

Finally, sprint doesn’t add any strategy on its own. At best, it adds clutter and confusion, and fractures the game’s pace, on top of, again, map design and the skillgap. Moving faster in a forward fashion doesn’t do or add anything strategy wise, past the ability to run away more easily.

However, as a final question, why do we NEED these abilities? What does slide add to the game, past the potential for a psuedo and unneeded drop shot meta. What does Spartan Charge add? Nothing, really, past annoyance and frustration. We don’t need them, in short. We don’t need a clutter of abilities that add to the unpredictable nature of the game, in game. How is slide good? It’s good for escaping when used with sprint, sure. But you shouldn’t be promoting that style of play in Halo. And it doesn’t exactly have an offensive role. It just kills the skill gap in a more subtle fashion. Same for Charge, except the effect is much more felt.

Just push the BMS to 125% from H5’s default speed, and the FoV to 90-110. And bam. You’re good. Not a hard solution. Can be done on the PC. And it doesn’t wreck gameplay integrity, but strengthens it.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Uh dude BMS has upsides like a lot. You get to places faster and can aim and shoot and run fast at the same time and we don’t have a second button for diffrent movements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did I say it didnt have upsides? I just said it didnt only have upsides.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So what are the downsides ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Look at the post above that one
> > >
> > >
> > > That doesn’t explain anything with regards to tbe downsides of a higher BMS
> >
> >
> > I thought you were referring to a higher BMS with no sprint, which is what I was responding too. In terms of simply a higher BMS with sprint, then how flippin fast would you be sprinting?
>
>
> I was but in your response you didnt really explain the negatives to higher BMS just more stated that there are indeed negatives, unless i misread or simply missed it in which case could you clarify on the downsides to a higher BMS no sprint in a Halo game

This is the post I was referring to, above the one you quoted

“As I have said before (I will probably say this every time: Im not pro-sprint, I’m not Anti Sprint), sprint allows for an additional/different level of strategy that BMS doesnt. Choosing when or when not to sprint has consequences and must be taken into account. You cant just run around like a chicken with your head cut off.
Sliding is a fantastic movement ability, and also adds to strategy, and there is no way that I know of to logically do it without sprint.
Those are just a couple I thought of off the top of my head”

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> > > There is legitimately an upside to sprint, and this is why youre arrogant, and why so many of the pro-sprinters dislike you anti-sprinters. Because there you are again acting like a friggin know-it-all. I’m not going to explain for the thousandth time why there are upsides to sprint, because you are obviously too blinded by bias to see it.
> > >
> > > If I implied I was quoting you verbatim, sorry, meant for it to be a paraphrase, because that is legitimately how you came/come off. Everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and because you have taken a course or 2 in game design it makes you all knowing and inherently better informed, so your point of view is the ONLY correct one. And no, how you responded was unprovoked and unnecessary.
> > >
> > > There is some opinion, but even opinions aside there are legitimate positives and negatives to both sides. Just because you choose to ignore the positives of sprint, THAT DO EXIST, and disregard the negatives of BMS THAT DO EXIST, then thats your problem.
> >
> >
> > Okay, then. Humor me. What’s a positive to sprint that can’t be done with a simple BMS and doesn’t compromise gameplay integrity, and a downside to BMS that’s as bad as sprint is?
>
>
> How about slide? That is a legitimately good mechanic that I cannot possibly see be done well without sprint. And as I have said for I dont even know how many times, having the third movement speed of sprint adds an additional/different level of strategy not possible with only BMS. Spartan charge also would not be able to be done very efficiently with only BMS (obviously spartan charge isnt the best mechanic, but could do very well with tweaking.)
>
> And simply increasing the BMS cannot ever allow for the increased mobility options offered with sprint. Run-jumping vs walk-jumping for example. And you would obviously have to find the balance of a high enough BMS with a good FOV so you dont feel like a slug like Halo 3.
>
> Because of your negative view of sprint and your awe-inspiring view of high BMS, there is nothing I can say about BMS that you would ever consider ‘as bad as sprint.’
>
> Go ahead, be a jerk. The floor is yours.
>
> And no I wont be surprised if you say ‘you mentioned spartan charge as a positive to sprint. I am speechless. That tells me all I need to know. Youve lost all credibility in my eyes.’

Damn this community is soft as hell

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You may have not perceived yourself that way, but that is how you came off, and how youve come off for my entirety of posting on here today other than your last post. You’ve come off as someone who thinks they know better than everyone else, and that everyone else’s argument or logic is flawed, and only you and those who agree with you are right and deserve to be listened to.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your most recent post didnt include any “I’m just speechless because of how stupid you are” “you obviously dont understand xyz,” or similar statements. Which is why i didnt get as frustrated with you as I had been getting.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are more legitimate arguements than the two you listed, but at this point, i dont really want to bother pointing them out anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I wouldnt say that’s all halo’s identity is, or that it cant be anything outside of that. (on an unlrelated note, Halo 3’s equipments were stupid, you just reminded me of them with your ‘no abilities’ remark.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sprint also does not only have downsides, and BMS does not only have upsides.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Uh dude BMS has upsides like a lot. You get to places faster and can aim and shoot and run fast at the same time and we don’t have a second button for diffrent movements.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did I say it didnt have upsides? I just said it didnt only have upsides.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So what are the downsides ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Look at the post above that one
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That doesn’t explain anything with regards to tbe downsides of a higher BMS
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought you were referring to a higher BMS with no sprint, which is what I was responding too. In terms of simply a higher BMS with sprint, then how flippin fast would you be sprinting?
> >
> >
> > I was but in your response you didnt really explain the negatives to higher BMS just more stated that there are indeed negatives, unless i misread or simply missed it in which case could you clarify on the downsides to a higher BMS no sprint in a Halo game
>
>
> This is the post I was referring to, above the one you quoted
>
> “As I have said before (I will probably say this every time: Im not pro-sprint, I’m not Anti Sprint), sprint allows for an additional/different level of strategy that BMS doesnt. Choosing when or when not to sprint has consequences and must be taken into account. You cant just run around like a chicken with your head cut off.
> Sliding is a fantastic movement ability, and also adds to strategy, and there is no way that I know of to logically do it without sprint.
> Those are just a couple I thought of off the top of my head”

Well you’re not exactly walking without sprint just up the movement speed to where it’s a constant sprint and add the crouching button and “boom goes the dynamite” you could literally keep everything except sprint and it would still function great.

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> > > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
>
>
> Some of those things you mentioned can be fixed if they were to increase the BMS while strafing/backpedaling, it doesnt necessarily need to do away with sprint. and sprint does not enlarge all maps, there are many maps from the original 3 halos that are just as big if not bigger than those in their counterpart category in Halo 4 and 5.

But if the BMS is increased while sprint is kept (decreasing the delta between BMS/sprint speed), then what’s the point in keeping sprint if it’s speed boost isn’t meaningful enough to keep in the game? This is one of many complications that sprint introduces to game play that isn’t worth the addition of strategy it may have.

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> > How about slide? That is a legitimately good mechanic that I cannot possibly see be done well without sprint. And as I have said for I dont even know how many times, having the third movement speed of sprint adds an additional/different level of strategy not possible with only BMS. Spartan charge also would not be able to be done very efficiently with only BMS (obviously spartan charge isnt the best mechanic, but could do very well with tweaking.)
> >
> > And simply increasing the BMS cannot ever allow for the increased mobility options offered with sprint. Run-jumping vs walk-jumping for example. And you would obviously have to find the balance of a high enough BMS with a good FOV so you dont feel like a slug like Halo 3.
> >
> > Because of your negative view of sprint and your awe-inspiring view of high BMS, there is nothing I can say about BMS that you would ever consider ‘as bad as sprint.’
> >
> > Go ahead, be a jerk. The floor is yours.
>
>
> Past the really needless passive aggressiveness, why not just tie slide to thrust or just basic forward momentum? If you move forward at full torque, then crouch, you slide. If you’re not at full speed, you can crouch. Or, if you remove sprint but keep thrust, just tie it to that. And Spartan Charge was made to specifically stop double melee sprint rushing which was an insane issue with Halo: Reach and Halo 4. If sprint goes, that ability needs to go too, because that ability and its issues are SOLELY caused by sprint, and reward terrible and reckless plays. There’s no reason it needs to be in game, even in a nerfed state if sprint’s gone.
>
> Finally, sprint doesn’t add any strategy on its own. At best, it adds clutter and confusion, and fractures the game’s pace, on top of, again, map design and the skillgap. Moving faster in a forward fashion doesn’t do or add anything strategy wise, past the ability to run away more easily.
>
> However, as a final question, why do we NEED these abilities? What does slide add to the game, past the potential for a psuedo and unneeded drop shot meta. What does Spartan Charge add? Nothing, really, past annoyance and frustration. We don’t need them, in short. We don’t need a clutter of abilities that add to the unpredictable nature of the game, in game. How is slide good? It’s good for escaping when used with sprint, sure. But you shouldn’t be promoting that style of play in Halo. And it doesn’t exactly have an offensive role. It just kills the skill gap in a more subtle fashion. Same for Charge, except the effect is much more felt.
>
> Just push the BMS to 125% from H5’s default speed, and the FoV to 90-110. And bam. You’re good. Not a hard solution. Can be done on the PC. And it doesn’t wreck gameplay integrity, but strengthens it.

Slide has in my experience been used far more often as an offensive ability than a defensive one.

How does sprint not add strategy!?! you have to choose whether or not you want to risk finding someone sooner, getting somewhere quicker, or potentially quickly coming up behind someone, where you are very vulnerable while doing so! How is that not an additional level of strategy!? Or choosing not to sprint to potentially get the drop on someone coming quickly around the corner not being able to bring their weapon to bear fast enough? Or sprinting towards an opponent with a sword or shotgun, sliding at the last moment to avoid their headshot and killing them or meleeing them? How does that not add strategy?

What does going back to simply base movement speed add to the game? The same argument can be made. I can say it takes away my ability to use things such as slide in a strategic fashion.

What style of play is that promoting? Simply one you dont like? Retreating, gathering yourself, letting your shields recharge, and searching for another target, or going up against the prior one, is a legitimate strategy,and always has been in Halo. Using teleporters to escape a poor situation and then sneaking up behind your assailant when they come through was useful in Halo 1-3.

Why cant we have these abilities? They add to the gameplay, but also have negatives, same with BMS. I LIKE BOTH. There are many people that LIKE BOTH. Are we not allowed to like both and see both sides? Or do we have to pick one?

Sorry, just expecting more of the same from you. Quit acting all innocent like youve been nothing but respectful and nice throughout this convo.

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> > > > > > > > > 2533274886529017;10262:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274913913392;10175:
> > > > > > > > > > You really dont get how games work do you? As much as you like to flaunt game design…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what makes games run as well as you say…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How about every single Halo PC map? 90% of those maps were deadspace, Avalanche only had a tiny bit being used at any given time, same with sidewinder, inside the bases on containment was hardly ever used, high ground didnt have much contact on the beach aside from spawning, the outer ring on snow bound, the edge on waterworks, several spots on terminal, same with relic, i can go on…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Seriously quit treating bungie like they were game designing gods. They made good games, but they werent perfect.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And apparently you have too much pride to admit it, but this issue has no inherently right side. I have yet to see an argument by a pro sprinter or anti sprinter that makes me say “yep, they are right”
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > At least zrofear has semi thought out arguments, even though he is blind to counter arguments as well. You are just saying “CUZ GME DSIGNE” over and over again
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for not being ‘holier than thou’ in this post.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You kinda did make bungie seem like they were amazing when you said “What halo 1-3 map ever had deadspace” or something along those lines.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We both have different experiences with Halo. I have seen people fall away from Halo, but not one has blamed sprint. I know several people rejoice at the fact sprint was getting included in Halo Reach, and made permanent in Halo 4. Year-wise, yes Halo has had more non-sprint years than sprint. Game wise, it is now split nearly down the middle. Aside from MCC, there have been 3 full Halo games to include sprint, and 4 to not, one of those being ODST.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Halo 4 and 5 are not the only Halo games drastically different from eachother. Halo 1 and 2 were drastically different from eachother, same with 3-reach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would agree that Halo needs to figure out what it’s identity is (remember, Im not pro-sprint)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And just because you have paragraphs of material to write to do away with sprint, doesnt mean that youre right, or that sprint needs to go, as there are arguments for it. If you cannot see any good in the arguments for it, thats your problem, and when halo 6 includes sprint youre just gonna be disappointed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would honestly like to see a halo tested with bms increased, just so we can play it in matchmaking (maybe halo 3A?). Halo 2A functioned well without sprint. I would at least like to see a classic playlist in Halo 6 if nothing else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, I don’t completely disagree with you on everything. Im not pro-sprint. I just try and see both sides to the argument and there are good points on both sides of this one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The only legitimate good “arguments” (in heavy quotes) boil down to immersion, which can be fulfilled in campaign, or “I just like it”, which, while fine as an actual opinion, isn’t valid for it to be a gameplay feature. Everything else can be countered with a higher base movement speed which offers many more objective upsides than sprint which only has downsides. And that isn’t just an opinion, it’s provable and a fact, to be absolutely firm, and there isn’t anything I “don’t” see. It isn’t my issue people make flawed arguments and take offense to it, or treat those who go against it as if they’re some antagonistic force. :stuck_out_tongue:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Past that, Halo’s general identity on top of that boils down to equal starts, no sprint, no abilities. Halo 1-3 in a nutshell to a point. Arguing about things like pacing in between CE to 2 isn’t what I talk about, as that’s a different ballgame most people don’t get.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bar that, one thing that’s frustrated me the most here is that my arguments have been taken as me trying to be “holier than thou”, which is not at all how I’ve been presenting myself. I literally posted here, what I’ve been posting for the past two nights, but you somehow took my most recent post as fine compared to the rest. But nothing about my language changed, past how firm I became. Stating how maps have no deadspace due to a lack of sprint isn’t me praising the company. I’m praising the map design which is entirely different and something I made sure to be clear since in the same sentence I spoke about how inadvertent (And different) deadspaces formed on Bungie maps. And it’s not like I’ve been saying having an opinion’s bad. I openly said that the opinion of liking sprint is fine, but every argument that overlooks or denies its downsides, flaws or fixes is what’s bad, because it overlooks an actual truth, something that, while I don’t wish to prod at, was very much present in your comments earlier, and other’s. The sudden u-turn partially bothers me, mainly, because I changed nothing about what I’ve been preaching, nor any of my views, I just placed EVERYTHING into one large paragraph.
> >
> >
> > Some of those things you mentioned can be fixed if they were to increase the BMS while strafing/backpedaling, it doesnt necessarily need to do away with sprint. and sprint does not enlarge all maps, there are many maps from the original 3 halos that are just as big if not bigger than those in their counterpart category in Halo 4 and 5.
>
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> But if the BMS is increased while sprint is kept (decreasing the delta between BMS/sprint speed), then what’s the point in keeping sprint if it’s speed boost isn’t meaningful enough to keep in the game? This is one of many complications that sprint introduces to game play that isn’t worth the addition of strategy it may have.

Im pretty sure strafing and backpedaling is not as fast as walking in Halo 5. Or am I wrong? that is one thing I have not tested. If it isnt, then you can just up those to walking speed.

10299

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> > 2533274921982810;10290:
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>
>
> This is the post I was referring to, above the one you quoted
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> “As I have said before (I will probably say this every time: Im not pro-sprint, I’m not Anti Sprint), sprint allows for an additional/different level of strategy that BMS doesnt. Choosing when or when not to sprint has consequences and must be taken into account. You cant just run around like a chicken with your head cut off.
> Sliding is a fantastic movement ability, and also adds to strategy, and there is no way that I know of to logically do it without sprint.
> Those are just a couple I thought of off the top of my head”

Sprint allows for an ease of escape, so its less punishing for people who continually put themselves in bad positions, and punishes the pursuers who have put themselves in the advantageous position by making them give chase with their guns down, so if you happen to give chase and run into another enemy you’re immediately at a disadvantage, to me that’s not greater strategy that’s rewarding bad play while punishing the player who’s made the right plays and moves, obviously when to chase and when not to is purely situational but in Halo 5 its more detrimental as the pursuit can be considerably longer due to unlimited sprint and the gun being down when engaged. For me the negatives outweigh any perceived benefits it brings.
with regards to slide they can just tie it into hitting the top BMS or tie it with thrust so that you can only slide after a thrust has been performed, It doesn’t solely need sprint to function. Spartan charge needs erasing from existence.

10300

> 2533274913913392;10175:
> Slide has in my experience been used far more often as an offensive ability than a defensive one.
>
> How does sprint not add strategy!?! you have to choose whether or not you want to risk finding someone sooner, getting somewhere quicker, or potentially quickly coming up behind someone, where you are very vulnerable while doing so! How is that not an additional level of strategy!? Or choosing not to sprint to potentially get the drop on someone coming quickly around the corner not being able to bring their weapon to bear fast enough? Or sprinting towards an opponent with a sword or shotgun, sliding at the last moment to avoid their headshot and killing them or meleeing them? How does that not add strategy?
>
> What does going back to simply base movement speed add to the game? The same argument can be made. I can say it takes away my ability to use things such as slide in a strategic fashion.
>
> What style of play is that promoting? Simply one you dont like? Retreating, gathering yourself, letting your shields recharge, and searching for another target, or going up against the prior one, is a legitimate strategy,and always has been in Halo. Using teleporters to escape a poor situation and then sneaking up behind your assailant when they come through was useful in Halo 1-3.
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> Why cant we have these abilities? They add to the gameplay, but also have negatives, same with BMS. I LIKE BOTH. There are many people that LIKE BOTH. Are we not allowed to like both and see both sides? Or do we have to pick one?
>
> Sorry, just expecting more of the same from you. Quit acting all innocent like youve been nothing but respectful and nice throughout this convo.

I never acted innocent. I’m being as blunt as I can to explain this as clear cut as I can. I don’t care if I come off as mean with it, although I’ll fight the misrepresentation because there’s a difference between being legitimately rude, and someone just being sensitive that someone is taking a bold stand to them and won’t back down. :stuck_out_tongue:

But here’s the thing, remove sprint and you can do all of those things. Non-sprint Halo doesn’t stop you from moving to find people quickly, or performing a proper flank. The maps were designed with those in mind. The strategy’s always been there, and will be. And when you have a Sword or Shotgun, why should you have an additional advantage except for damage? The weapon’s short range. You shouldn’t just be able to run up to people because of sprint and sword/shotty them. There’s a risk and reward to picking up a weapon with such short range which is eliminated when you can just sprint slide to targets faster than they can backpedal. It makes the weapons easy as Halo to use. On top of that, when you’re in a gunfight as well, you can’t slide, because that requires you to sprint at full terminal velocity, which you’ll never get in a fight. And even if you were able to slide in a fight, why do you need a crutch ability to save you, over a strafe? If you get caught in a fight where you’re going to lose, you should lose. You shouldn’t be ABLE to escape or win. You get punished for being inferior to the person you fight.

The style of play it promotes is one that doesn’t allow you to put yourself in dangerous or dumb situations, only to escape unharmed, which is exactly what sprint does. Sure, retreating in Halo’s been a strategy, but when you retreated in an older Halo, say, Halo 3, you couldn’t just run faster than your opponent. You generally backpedaled, or strongsided. You didn’t just get a “Get out of Jail Free” action. If you screwed up the strongside, or the person followed you down, you were done, because they could follow you with their gun up, unlike now. And in CE you weren’t even GIVEN the option of retreat since the game’s pace generally meant you got killed before you could run. You’d be much better off trying to fight since you’re empowered as an individual, than trying to run. In short, there were downsides to running in older Halos, you were weak, couldn’t run faster than the opponent following you, but in the same breath, they still had their weapon ready to take your head off. There isn’t now, since your opponent can chase you, but not attack, resulting in, again, cat and mouse gameplay, which slows the game pace down. It’s either that, or don’t bother running after 'em. Both of which slow the game down and reward the wrong people.

Furthermore, the abilities add to the gameplay in an overall negative fashion for players. Adding complexity to your basic movement is terrible for gamers. In Halo 5 I need to press 3-4 buttons to move at THE quickest pace I can possibly and objectively move. With a BMS, I don’t need to worry about that, and can move at one constant speed, and do all the other actions around it, such as crouch jumping, and the like, an action that takes skill over clamber. And that’s not counting what I need to take into account for other players. It’s overly complex in how many ways someone can approach something, or how fast they can move. And it shouldn’t be like that for a competitive title. There should be “that bit” of complexity that you can tap into to boost your skill, but it shouldn’t be a part of every bit of gameplay.

There’s a certain amount of complexity that should be in a game, and Halo had it before the abilities came in. Things like grenade/crouch jumping, weapon launching, crouch strafing, etc. And all I get from this is “I need a crutch”, because that’s exactly what the abilities are. They offer no skillgap to them, since it’s a one and done mechanical action. Like the thrust. Thrusting to the side is the exact same thing as a strafe, but easier. Why does it need to exist? Probably so people who can’t strafe properly have some semblance of a chance against those who do (On top of gap clearing because map inflation.). You can like a side, again, I never said you couldn’t, or shouldn’t, but there are downsides one should look at when taking their stance.

And in finality, none of these are a downside to BMS. None of them. Because a BMS can do an equivalent to every one of these actions. Wanna have a dip in height in a fight? Crouch strafe. Wanna clamber up? Crouch jump. Need to run from a fight? Strongside. No guarantees you’ll make it out, given you put yourself in a bad situation anyway and they can follow you fairly, but the option’s there.

All those options, without cluttering up your control scheme or basic movement. Feels good to think about, especially having played Halo 5 with settings like these.

10301

I say just rid of sprint for the sole sake of making it a slow shooter again. Bungie Built it for consoles and if you already didn’t know mouses are far twitchier than controllers and so it automatically leads to faster gameplay. I miss that slower paced, thoughtful gameplay. Now it’s just run and gun. You can argue that sprint is what makes it slower anyway. But I feel it still is an issue. Plus I just want old halo back. I don’t enjoy the current way the game is, just in general. (even aside from the fact a lot of it’s content comes off as being half @$$ed)

10302

> 2533274944987339;10301:
> I say just rid of sprint for the sole sake of making it a slow shooter again. Bungie Built it for consoles and if you already didn’t know mouses are far twitchier than controllers and so it automatically leads to faster gameplay. I miss that slower paced, thoughtful gameplay. Now it’s just run and gun. You can argue that sprint is what makes it slower anyway. But I feel it still is an issue. Plus I just want old halo back. I don’t enjoy the current way the game is, just in general. (even aside from the fact a lot of it’s content comes off as being half @$$ed)

A lack of sprint would make everything faster, actually. Maps would be smaller, the pace more consistent, rather than rising and falling from quick to slow as molasses, and people would be punished more, meaning more deaths, meaning quicker games when facing reckless players.

Nice Bionicle username, though.