> 2533274848599184;8790:
> Anybody know the sprint speed for Master Chief in the “Starry Night” commercial?
Doesn’t matter, than one’s not canon. At least as far as we know.
> 2533274848599184;8825:
> Sure, this entire argument boils down to personal opinion. I think Halo 5 plays well in line with Halo games, and I think if you took a look at the series alone, its fine to assume it would’ve reached this point regardless of external markets. People always chided 343 for copying systems that were in other popular games, but I really do think Halo would have gotten here regardless of the Destinys and CoDs. I cant really find anything unique about CE. To me it always looked like a dumbed down, slower version of Quake. Hotkey grenades? Im not sure. I didnt play lots of Quake. My first FPS was Halo CE. The point is, it seems like only after 343 took over (which is AFTER sprint was introduced) people started complaining about how Halo was not being innovative.
If I recall correctly, Halo CE was the first game to introduce hotkeys for grenades and melee (previously, both were just different weapons, like knives or a crowbar), a two-weapon-restriction, and seemless transition between on-foot and vehicle segments (instead of having dedicated on-foot and vehicle levels). As far as I know, it was also the first shooter to use a dual stick layout, which hasn’t been done before, even though the Playstation had controllers with two sticks. Recharging shield I’m not sure about, I think it had already been done before.
EDIT:
Sorry, I’m working my way through the last few days in the thread and sometimes overlook posts.
> 2533274848599184;8855:
> Sorry was just doing some of my own research and a lot of the things you mention didnt start with Halo. Two weapon limit, grenade button did not start with Halo. The control scheme part I agree with because Halo brought it to the mainstream. The games I can remember with similar controls is probably only the original Medal of Honor, but it didnt have a melee button, or two analogs.
>
> So I guess its just an all purpose melee button and the general control scheme?
Out of curiosity, which games had the weapon restriction and the grenade hotkey before? I don’t remember any, but that doesn’t mean there weren’t any.
> 2533274801176260;8863:
> > 2533274848599184;8825:
> > Sure, this entire argument boils down to personal opinion. I think Halo 5 plays well in line with Halo games, and I think if you took a look at the series alone, its fine to assume it would’ve reached this point regardless of external markets. People always chided 343 for copying systems that were in other popular games, but I really do think Halo would have gotten here regardless of the Destinys and CoDs. I cant really find anything unique about CE. To me it always looked like a dumbed down, slower version of Quake. Hotkey grenades? Im not sure. I didnt play lots of Quake. My first FPS was Halo CE. The point is, it seems like only after 343 took over (which is AFTER sprint was introduced) people started complaining about how Halo was not being innovative.
>
>
> If I recall correctly, Halo CE was the first game to introduce hotkeys for grenades and melee (previously, both were just different weapons, like knives or a crowbar), a two-weapon-restriction, and seemless transition between on-foot and vehicle segments (instead of having dedicated on-foot and vehicle levels). As far as I know, it was also the first shooter to use a dual stick layout, which hasn’t been done before, even though the Playstation had controllers with two sticks. Recharging shield I’m not sure about, I think it had already been done before.
>
> EDIT:
> Sorry, I’m working my way through the last few days in the thread and sometimes overlook posts.
>
>
> > 2533274848599184;8855:
> > Sorry was just doing some of my own research and a lot of the things you mention didnt start with Halo. Two weapon limit, grenade button did not start with Halo. The control scheme part I agree with because Halo brought it to the mainstream. The games I can remember with similar controls is probably only the original Medal of Honor, but it didnt have a melee button, or two analogs.
> >
> > So I guess its just an all purpose melee button and the general control scheme?
>
>
> Out of curiosity, which games had the weapon restriction and the grenade hotkey before? I don’t remember any, but that doesn’t mean there weren’t any.
Team Fortress Classic. Each class had two grenade types, each usable by a different key. The grenade was mapped to one specific key. In terms of two weapon limit, tons of games have done it, but the most popular one I can think of is Rainbow Six/Ghost Recon.
> 2533274801176260;8862:
> > 2533274848599184;8790:
> > Anybody know the sprint speed for Master Chief in the “Starry Night” commercial?
>
>
> Doesn’t matter, than one’s not canon. At least as far as we know.
Its referenced in Hunt the Truth is it not?
> 2535414876585185;1:
> Halo 6 could be the game EVERYONE wants by removing sprint in campaign (yes because who the -Yoink- needs TWO movement speeds in campaign???) and
> arena multiplayer at first I thought a no sprint playlist might be optimal but hear me out. I pretty sure the new spartan abilities (save -Yoinking!- spartan charge) would be GENERALLY accepted in a halo game if they werent accompanied by sprint it would feel more competitive more strategic and would also still be recognizable to the fine tuned experience we got in halo 5. Warzone and customs would be a whole other beast entirely retaining ALL the features that made halo 5 successful would keep warzone great and would also allow more options for custom games, for those people that actually wanted to play in a sprint arena type setting they could actually fire up the in game custom game lobby adjust the filter and be good to go! lets face it, sprint has NO place in competitve halo and to argue that it does would just be absurd. this would allow arena maps to continue to be designed the PROPER way and please the vets and basically everyone whos willing to give it a chance and you wouldnt lose much of your sprint loving audience at all because there would still be sprint in the game it would just take a backseat!
> Thoughts? :3
Guess what? Sprint is never going to leave the game. I can guarantee it, the sooner you all understand that, the sooner you will be happy.
> 2533274801176260;8861:
> Oh, so human anatomy is too complex to be approximated by a triangle, but it is fair game to approximate it by a square?
> I am not ignoring anything. You are ignoring the additional wind resistance and friction that comes from arm movement as well as the pointed gun separating the streamlines in front of the body, causing them to wrap around and rejoin behind the runner. Yes, there is some air that will still hit the body, but significantly less than without the gun held up. And I have yet to see a reason as to why torso rotation (or any rotation for that matter) would have an effect on wind resistance. The only thing that will happen is a deflective force according to the Magnus effect that will average itself out as the rotoation changes periodically.
To be fair, you two are arguing over second order effects while justifying your assumptions with crude toy models. Nothing meaningful can be said unless somebody goes into a wind tunnel and tests it out. My completely unjustified guess is that you’re discussing an effect of the order of 1%. Suffice to say, there are probably more significant effects caused by arm swing than air resistance.
> 2533274848599184;8865:
> > 2533274801176260;8862:
> > > 2533274848599184;8790:
> > > Anybody know the sprint speed for Master Chief in the “Starry Night” commercial?
> >
> >
> > Doesn’t matter, than one’s not canon. At least as far as we know.
>
>
> Its referenced in Hunt the Truth is it not?
Could be an easter egg. E.T. was in Star Wars Episode I, the Millenium Falcon was in Star Trek: First Contact. The number of easter eggs in Halo is numerous as well. Marathon references, anyone?
So far the only thing for certain is that John and some girl called Ellie Bloom watched the stars on Eridanus II. Which, given the fact that according to Bungie, the trailer takes place on earth, is contradictory.
This might just be a retcon, but seing as the other Halo 3 commercials aren’t canon themselves, as they talk about Master Chief’s death in the game, casts suspicion on the canonicity of the advertisement.
Although I admit, that this is not a certainty…
Remove sprint! Change the whole game back to how halo used to be! The MCC Is way more fun, we should all switch to that, and let’s see this thread hit 10,000 posts.
> 2533274825830455;8867:
> > 2533274801176260;8861:
> > Oh, so human anatomy is too complex to be approximated by a triangle, but it is fair game to approximate it by a square?
> > I am not ignoring anything. You are ignoring the additional wind resistance and friction that comes from arm movement as well as the pointed gun separating the streamlines in front of the body, causing them to wrap around and rejoin behind the runner. Yes, there is some air that will still hit the body, but significantly less than without the gun held up. And I have yet to see a reason as to why torso rotation (or any rotation for that matter) would have an effect on wind resistance. The only thing that will happen is a deflective force according to the Magnus effect that will average itself out as the rotoation changes periodically.
>
>
> To be fair, you two are arguing over second order effects while justifying your assumptions with crude toy models. Nothing meaningful can be said unless somebody goes into a wind tunnel and tests it out. My completely unjustified guess is that you’re discussing an effect of the order of 1%. Suffice to say, there are probably more significant effects caused by arm swing than air resistance.
True, but the overall shape of the object moving forward is a first order effect. It still is an approximation, yes, but the fact remains that a pointy object has better aerodynamic properties than a flat object.
Unfortunately, I don’t have access to a wind tunnel. Wrong branch of physics. I could provide a particle accelerator, though.
> 2533274801176260;8861:
> Again: He was running at the same 7m/s BMS that he has during gameplay. You assumption is wrong. There was no difference in speed in both instances and as far as we know it isn’t his top speed either.
Well here it is then. You’ve shown that Spartans are capable of both gun up and gun down running at a speed of 15 m/s. If the sprint speed shown in Halo CE/2 cutscenes make it that the Spartan is only going 7 m/s, then clearly he should be able to sprint faster than that, with his gun down no less.
The argument isn’t wrong. Master Chief supposedly once ran at ~ 29 m/s. Clearly they aren’t sprinting as fast as possible in the games. So let’s not call it sprint. In fact, since it’s seemingly indefinite, it can only be defined as running faster than when the gun is up. Why has that been done? Perhaps 343 felt the marginal speed difference was nicely offset by the loss of gun usage. But it’s been pretty clearly defined that A) Spartans can run with their guns down and B) They can run at speeds of past 15m/s, something never seen in game. Lore wise, this incarnation of a faster movement speed, as seen in Halo 5, fits perfectly into the lore. Call it sprint, call it running fast, hell call it an augmented movement boost, it still fits into the lore.
Just for the other point of view, The Package posits that Spartans can simultaneously aim and fire in two directions, Spartan Laser blasts can melt Covenant walls, and that Master Chief and Co are capable of acrobatic flips and leaps. Since none of those are in the actual games, I’m gonna assume they took some artistic liberties with the universe, or they made everything hyper exaggerated. Neither seems like an adequate fit for a comparison to a video game. The cutscene can simply be explained by the fact that it was originally done in the same graphical style and settings of the game itself, so the Spartan appears to sprint but actually moves at the gameplay speed. They likely recorded that using the engine. Blur simply remastered the cutscenes.
Our conversations are too long and the post length limit has been reached.
Now in terms of the wind resistance argument. When I say square, I’m not saying the airflow is square. I’m saying it hits the Spartan square in the body. Because there is no arm swing, there is never any rotation in the torso. That torso rotation helps overcome a lot of wind resistance felt during running. Look or talk to any sprint/race training coach and they’ll tell you. I simply asked one of my friends who played soccer in Italy. They were told to sprint with arm swing to cause that rotation and to mainta in balance. A quick look at how that rotation affects the body when facing the wind is easy. Rotation creates a smaller profile, and the less air you disturb, the faster you move through it. Or, start your own sprint training camp, where you tell Olympian and track athletes that they need to point their arms directly in front of them to mitigate wind resistance in some way. One thing is that arm swing does not increase wind resistance felt on the body. A) Because it causes torsional rotation and B) Because the arms are already streamlined and generally held in the plane of least resistance (no one runs palms open, facing the wind, and any resistance felt past that is the same as if the arms were stationary, but we’ve shown that holding the arms straight our require more power)
Finally, lore inconsistencies are always explained in some way. Ensemble Studios, when making the game, clearly spoke on the fact that they were bending the lore to give shields to Spartans. However, since HW took place after first contact, then any 343 employee needs to say, ONI made prototype shields and gave them to Red team to field test on the Spirit of Fire mission. Done.
Not sure what the Halo 3 terminal issues or the Guilty Spark issue is, but it’s likely that they can be explained off the same way.
Keep the sprint! Although the no sprint in campaign does sound interesting and might help make the campaign feel longer rather than you running at top speed and getting through an area in 1/3 of the time if you were just walking it.
> 2533274801176260;8870:
> > 2533274825830455;8867:
> > > 2533274801176260;8861:
> > > Oh, so human anatomy is too complex to be approximated by a triangle, but it is fair game to approximate it by a square?
> > > I am not ignoring anything. You are ignoring the additional wind resistance and friction that comes from arm movement as well as the pointed gun separating the streamlines in front of the body, causing them to wrap around and rejoin behind the runner. Yes, there is some air that will still hit the body, but significantly less than without the gun held up. And I have yet to see a reason as to why torso rotation (or any rotation for that matter) would have an effect on wind resistance. The only thing that will happen is a deflective force according to the Magnus effect that will average itself out as the rotoation changes periodically.
> >
> >
> > To be fair, you two are arguing over second order effects while justifying your assumptions with crude toy models. Nothing meaningful can be said unless somebody goes into a wind tunnel and tests it out. My completely unjustified guess is that you’re discussing an effect of the order of 1%. Suffice to say, there are probably more significant effects caused by arm swing than air resistance.
>
>
> True, but the overall shape of the object moving forward is a first order effect. It still is an approximation, yes, but the fact remains that a pointy object has better aerodynamic properties than a flat object.
> Unfortunately, I don’t have access to a wind tunnel. Wrong branch of physics. I could provide a particle accelerator, though.
While I could access the wind tunnel, there’s no way for me to approximate a Spartan, augmented, in armor, and attempting to reach that top speed. The best I can argue is the positive affect of torsional rotation, and that the airflow around the gun is not large enough to create a difference in the flow around the Spartan.
I do agree that pointed objects have better flows than flat objects, but you aren’t accounting for orientation, size, or material/density. If I were to put a pencil in front of a large metal cube, I couldn’t rationally argue that it was creating a positive pointed flow line around the object. Likewise, where the gun-Spartan model is more comparable than the pencil-cube, it still isn’t large enough to assume that the body/torso (the part of the body that causes the most amount of wind resistance) does not feel the effects of the wind.
> 2533274848599184;8855:
> > 2533274819567236;8853:
> > > 2533274848599184;8852:
> > > > 2533274819567236;8851:
> > > > > 2533274846988418;8848:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;8846:
> > > > > > > 2533274846988418;8844:
> > > > > > > Literally everyone here complains about change. It cant be Halo CE forever.
> > > > > > > For a game series that started with “Combat Evolved” it doesn’t do the second word in that very well.
> > > > > > > Then when it does try and change, it is hated. As expected.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So if I become paralyzed from the neck down, I should embrace it because it’s a change?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you equate the change in the series currently, that I and many many others consider to be better, as being paralysed, then I don’t know what to tell you.
> > > > > Reach, 3 and 5 have the best MPs in the entire series in my opinion. If you want the game to keep being another game, then just play that game instead of contributing to the people holding the series back.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The irony, it’s… it’s incredible.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274848599184;8850:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;8831:
> > > > > > > 2533274848599184;8826:
> > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;8821:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274846988418;8820:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sounded to me like you think sales decreased because of story reasons. That’s not what we’re talking about (and 99% not the reason).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I did read it all unfortunately, but it just all seemed like a massive misunderstanding not only of this topic, but of most community complaints in general over the last 6 years.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also, Halo 4 did just about nothing innovative, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What Halo game has done something innovative? Genuinely curious. Was trying to figure out why CE was such a hit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It largely comes down to the control scheme on a console (particularly the use of twin sticks and controls for both combat and vehicles), dedicated melee and grenade buttons, the two weapon limit most (all?) console shooters have used since then, and I believe even the physics were unlike what we’d FPS had seen before. There might be more, that’s just all I can think of right now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would more accurately be described as “revolutionary” when taking into consideration all the things it did well that set the stage for on future console shooters are made.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah ok
> > > > > Not the game itself, more the polish and presentation? What im getting is control scheme, grenade hotkey, universal melee on everything, and the fact that it was more advanced than games that came out before it (ill assume we’re talking about Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, etc.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Not trying to argue, but Ive always heard that the FPS genre was broken into a pre Half Life and post Half Life world. Never heard anything like that about Halo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I never heard that Half Life bit. Obviously though, without Halo, I’d imagine many of the shooters on console today would not be around. Certainly not in their current forms anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well wouldnt you consider the physics of Half Life to be on par with CE? And the no cutscenes part of Half Life was fairly unique. I think its safe to say Halo was one of those all time games that people will remember, but i dont think we can equate the shooters on console today being brought about by only Halo.
> >
> >
> > I never played the first Half Life, so I couldn’t say, but yeah the lack of cutscenes was definitely one of the things people remember about it. As far as other console shooters go, I mean when you consider the two weapon limit, the grenade/melee button, and the general controls, those are huge for an FPS to feel right and accessible. Without that starting point, how many of those devs would think to bring a shooter to consoles?
>
>
> Sorry was just doing some of my own research and a lot of the things you mention didnt start with Halo. Two weapon limit, grenade button did not start with Halo. The control scheme part I agree with because Halo brought it to the mainstream. The games I can remember with similar controls is probably only the original Medal of Honor, but it didnt have a melee button, or two analogs.
>
> So I guess its just an all purpose melee button and the general control scheme?
I guess so. And maybe the type of physics in the game (particularly for vehicles and grenades), but I’m less certain of that. Which game started the two weapon limit and grenade button?
> 2533274855279867;8859:
> > 2533274819567236;8842:
> > > 2533274846988418;8839:
> > > > 2533274819567236;8838:
> > > > > 2535412089121530;8836:
> > > > > Sprint makes gameplay faster. I don’t wanna slow down the action.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why would a lack of sprint make the game slower paced?
> > >
> > >
> > > You’re joking, right?
> >
> >
> > No, but I thought you were done here. Are you not?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2535412089121530;8840:
> > > > 2533274819567236;8838:
> > > > > 2535412089121530;8836:
> > > > > Sprint makes gameplay faster. I don’t wanna slow down the action.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why would a lack of sprint make the game slower paced?
> > >
> > >
> > > It’s used to let you travel faster. I like jumping right back into it rather than strolling back to it. In my opinion.
> >
> >
> > Sprint getting you anywhere at a faster rate - in comparison to previous games - is actually an illusion. See, the maps are made larger because you can move quicker. That has to be done because getting places too quickly would screw up the spawn system and not allow enough downtime for players in between encounters (which is something that the game needs and it’s why we have rechargable shields in the first place) If anything, the pace slows with sprint because the map is built for a speed you’re not always moving at. If maps remain as large as they are now, a single faster base speed would actually increase the pace of the gameplay without any of the negative ripple effects of sprints inclusion. If you want bursts of speed throughout the game, thruster could still be used for that as could speed boost power ups if added.
>
>
> Not every part of maps is enlarged for sprint. Many of the play spaces are the same sizes we’re already used to. You can’t say pace is slowed because of maps being stretched for sprint.
It doesn’t have to be “every part”, just size of the map overall.
I agree. NO SPRINT and NO JETPACKS. At least in multiplayer. If the kids want jetpacks and sprint so much they could be in the campaign and some playlists but not others?
> 2533274801176260;8870:
> True, but the overall shape of the object moving forward is a first order effect. It still is an approximation, yes, but the fact remains that a pointy object has better aerodynamic properties than a flat object.
Still though, that’s a pretty complex question because your Spartan in any running position can’t really be said to be more pointy than it’s flat. Or rather, you can’t really say whether one position is significantly pointier than another. Not to mention giving any estimate of the difference.
> 2533274801176260;8870:
> I could provide a particle accelerator, though.
I’m afraid the fluid flow is too fast.
> 2533274819567236;8874:
> > 2533274848599184;8855:
> > > 2533274819567236;8853:
> > > > 2533274848599184;8852:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;8851:
> > > > > > 2533274846988418;8848:
> > > > > > > 2533274819567236;8846:
> > > > > > > > 2533274846988418;8844:
> > > > > > > > Literally everyone here complains about change. It cant be Halo CE forever.
> > > > > > > > For a game series that started with “Combat Evolved” it doesn’t do the second word in that very well.
> > > > > > > > Then when it does try and change, it is hated. As expected.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So if I become paralyzed from the neck down, I should embrace it because it’s a change?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you equate the change in the series currently, that I and many many others consider to be better, as being paralysed, then I don’t know what to tell you.
> > > > > > Reach, 3 and 5 have the best MPs in the entire series in my opinion. If you want the game to keep being another game, then just play that game instead of contributing to the people holding the series back.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The irony, it’s… it’s incredible.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2533274848599184;8850:
> > > > > > > 2533274819567236;8831:
> > > > > > > > 2533274848599184;8826:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;8821:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274846988418;8820:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sounded to me like you think sales decreased because of story reasons. That’s not what we’re talking about (and 99% not the reason).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I did read it all unfortunately, but it just all seemed like a massive misunderstanding not only of this topic, but of most community complaints in general over the last 6 years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Also, Halo 4 did just about nothing innovative, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What Halo game has done something innovative? Genuinely curious. Was trying to figure out why CE was such a hit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It largely comes down to the control scheme on a console (particularly the use of twin sticks and controls for both combat and vehicles), dedicated melee and grenade buttons, the two weapon limit most (all?) console shooters have used since then, and I believe even the physics were unlike what we’d FPS had seen before. There might be more, that’s just all I can think of right now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would more accurately be described as “revolutionary” when taking into consideration all the things it did well that set the stage for on future console shooters are made.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ah ok
> > > > > > Not the game itself, more the polish and presentation? What im getting is control scheme, grenade hotkey, universal melee on everything, and the fact that it was more advanced than games that came out before it (ill assume we’re talking about Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, etc.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not trying to argue, but Ive always heard that the FPS genre was broken into a pre Half Life and post Half Life world. Never heard anything like that about Halo.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I never heard that Half Life bit. Obviously though, without Halo, I’d imagine many of the shooters on console today would not be around. Certainly not in their current forms anyway.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well wouldnt you consider the physics of Half Life to be on par with CE? And the no cutscenes part of Half Life was fairly unique. I think its safe to say Halo was one of those all time games that people will remember, but i dont think we can equate the shooters on console today being brought about by only Halo.
> > >
> > >
> > > I never played the first Half Life, so I couldn’t say, but yeah the lack of cutscenes was definitely one of the things people remember about it. As far as other console shooters go, I mean when you consider the two weapon limit, the grenade/melee button, and the general controls, those are huge for an FPS to feel right and accessible. Without that starting point, how many of those devs would think to bring a shooter to consoles?
> >
> >
> > Sorry was just doing some of my own research and a lot of the things you mention didnt start with Halo. Two weapon limit, grenade button did not start with Halo. The control scheme part I agree with because Halo brought it to the mainstream. The games I can remember with similar controls is probably only the original Medal of Honor, but it didnt have a melee button, or two analogs.
> >
> > So I guess its just an all purpose melee button and the general control scheme?
>
>
> I guess so. And maybe the type of physics in the game (particularly for vehicles and grenades), but I’m less certain of that. Which game started the two weapon limit and grenade button?
Two weapon limit early Tom Clancy games, but I’m sure there must be some other obscure ones. Grenade button is TF Classic.
More and more, it seems like the most revolutionary thing Halo CE did was bring shooters to consoles. But, talking to my slightly older family and friends, most of then argue that they did that by dumbing down the game to fit on controller.
Vehicles are 100% Halo. They did it the best, and they still do. But physics I would argue Half Life did really well. It was quite popular so it’s unlikely it didn’t influence CE in some way.
Undoubtedly the best thing Halo did for the genre was twin stick analog control.
> 2533274848599184;8871:
> Well here it is then. You’ve shown that Spartans are capable of both gun up and gun down running at a speed of 15 m/s. If the sprint speed shown in Halo CE/2 cutscenes make it that the Spartan is only going 7 m/s, then clearly he should be able to sprint faster than that, with his gun down no less.
> The argument isn’t wrong. Master Chief supposedly once ran at ~ 29 m/s. Clearly they aren’t sprinting as fast as possible in the games. So let’s not call it sprint. In fact, since it’s seemingly indefinite, it can only be defined as running faster than when the gun is up. Why has that been done? Perhaps 343 felt the marginal speed difference was nicely offset by the loss of gun usage. But it’s been pretty clearly defined that A) Spartans can run with their guns down and B) They can run at speeds of past 15m/s, something never seen in game. Lore wise, this incarnation of a faster movement speed, as seen in Halo 5, fits perfectly into the lore. Call it sprint, call it running fast, hell call it an augmented movement boost, it still fits into the lore.
But not at the speeds shown in the game. The fact that the game forces the gun down and keeps the Spartans from shooting at what is essentially a fast stroll contradicts lore.
We also have no proof that Spartans can’t shoot at said higher speeds of 29m/s or more. Just because it didn’t happen is not a reason to assume that it can’t.
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> Just for the other point of view, The Package posits that Spartans can simultaneously aim and fire in two directions, Spartan Laser blasts can melt Covenant walls, and that Master Chief and Co are capable of acrobatic flips and leaps. Since none of those are in the actual games, I’m gonna assume they took some artistic liberties with the universe, or they made everything hyper exaggerated.
Or, as mentioned before, games don’t take lore into consideration but instead implement what is agreeable with the gameplay (and not limited by the engine, in the case of, say, melting doors).
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> The cutscene can simply be explained by the fact that it was originally done in the same graphical style and settings of the game itself, so the Spartan appears to sprint but actually moves at the gameplay speed. They likely recorded that using the engine. Blur simply remastered the cutscenes.
Didn’t Halo 2 already have speed settings in customs? They could have set movement speed to 110%, 120% or higher for this cutscene if it were important to distinguish both types of running.
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> Now in terms of the wind resistance argument. When I say square, I’m not saying the airflow is square. I’m saying it hits the Spartan square in the body. Because there is no arm swing, there is never any rotation in the torso. That torso rotation helps overcome a lot of wind resistance felt during running. Look or talk to any sprint/race training coach and they’ll tell you. I simply asked one of my friends who played soccer in Italy. They were told to sprint with arm swing to cause that rotation and to mainta in balance.
I never disagreed that arm swinging isn’t beneficial to maintain balance.
As for the torso rotation, the paper that we both referenced a few pages prior mentions that the test candidates actually increased their torso rotation when avoiding arm swinging.
“Our findings also demonstrate that arm swing minimizes torso rotation.”
“Confirming our previous speculation about torso motion when running without arm swing (Arellano and Kram, 2012), we found that subjects significantly increased the peak-to-peak amplitude of both shoulder and pelvis rotation (Fig. 3). Our findings support the idea that arm swing helps to minimize torso rotation.”
And before you start, no, that doesn’t contradict what I said earlier. I merely claimed that it is possible to rotate your pelvis without rotating the torso, no more, no less.
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> Finally, lore inconsistencies are always explained in some way. Ensemble Studios, when making the game, clearly spoke on the fact that they were bending the lore to give shields to Spartans. However, since HW took place after first contact, then any 343 employee needs to say, ONI made prototype shields and gave them to Red team to field test on the Spirit of Fire mission. Done.
> Not sure what the Halo 3 terminal issues or the Guilty Spark issue is, but it’s likely that they can be explained off the same way.
So give the Spartans in the next Halo game new armor and explain that the Gen-2 limited their movement due to some mechanic or software malfunction.
That’s actually exactly what I’ve been saying all along: Sprint being included within the games “because it makes sense” is a bogus reason, as you could always create a scenario in which it does or doesn’t make sense.
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> Logically, combat situations are various and diverse. Crossing terrain in a quick amount of time could be optimal for a given situation. Likewise, certain conditions require you to walk slow and methodically, but always be combat ready. The example I gave earlier was a game of Warzone vs a game of SWAT. Most people tend to use BMS in SWAT because the twitch nature of the gameplay means you want to have your gun ready at all times. In Warzone, trying to get the drop on a sniper means moving from cover to cover while they are in smart link. That uses sprint.
>
> Personally, I can see the appeal of CQC button counters, but after having it in Gears of War 4 and trying it out in the Beta and what not, it just seems unnecessary.
>
> No hypothesis, just a reasoning that it is shown that Spartans are moving at full speed while sprinting. Maybe they also move at full speed while gun ready, but rather than make sprint speed = BMS, 343 changed it so that sprint gives a marginal speed increase to compensate for loss of gun control. All I was trying to do was point out the stupidity of trying to shoot down Spartans sprinting in the lore. Or rather, running and shooting at full speed. So far, in the games, that has never happened, and besides the games we have The Package.
>
> Sure, this entire argument boils down to personal opinion. I think Halo 5 plays well in line with Halo games, and I think if you took a look at the series alone, its fine to assume it would’ve reached this point regardless of external markets. People always chided 343 for copying systems that were in other popular games, but I really do think Halo would have gotten here regardless of the Destinys and CoDs. I cant really find anything unique about CE. To me it always looked like a dumbed down, slower version of Quake. Hotkey grenades? Im not sure. I didnt play lots of Quake. My first FPS was Halo CE. The point is, it seems like only after 343 took over (which is AFTER sprint was introduced) people started complaining about how Halo was not being innovative.
You were on all kinds of terrain in Halo CE and 2, but you always had the same BMS. Levels and maps were well-designed (except Sniper Alley on Legendary) and encouraged a variety of tactics. You were punished for poor positioning, which was part of what gave classic Halo depth: it required solid strategies, which were possible because of a predictable BMS. Sprint can stay in Warzone for all I care, but if BMS is the choice for SWAT, then doesn’t that seem to indicate that sprint is an unnecessary mechanic?
It would be unnecessary, just like sprint, but it would make you feel like a super soldier, right? Doubleshots were cool, BXBs weren’t.
A hypothesis is an educated guess that can be tested. You’re the one who is claiming that the Master Chief was moving faster than the BMS in certain cutscenes in both Halo CE and 2, are you not? The burden of proof is upon the person who is making the positive claim.
You think that sprint would’ve been a core gameplay change if CoD hadn’t ever come around? Why then did it feel like Halo 4 was trying to appeal to the CoD fanbase? I’ve played very little Quake, Wolfenstein 3-D was my first FPS, and I’ve also played DOOM, Duke Nuk’em, Turok, Goldeneye, Rainbow Six, and Medal of Honor a fair amount. Halo CE was unique because it took elements from a lot of stuff that was out there and put it all together in a way no other game had. It was also a console FPS, had an excellent campaign, decent enemy AI, and a lot of fun multiplayer gametype variants. Oh yeah, and it kind of revolutionized the FPS genre. Its legacy can be found in the many games that have adopted various aspects of the original Halo formula.
Equipment was innovative, wasn’t it? Forge was a great idea, right? Firefight was a brilliant one, too, don’t you think so? Sp–Armor Abilities, sounded good on paper (granted, they worked well in custom games). Besides, Reach was a spin-off, so why does it matter whether or not sprint first appeared in it? This backlash began back then. 343i took it a step further in Halo 4 and completely changed the gameplay, which discouraged a lot of fans. Halo CE, Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo 3: ODST were all innovative, weren’t they? Why are sprint and spartan abilities the best direction for Halo’s gameplay to evolve in?
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> > > > > > > > > Literally everyone here complains about change. It cant be Halo CE forever.
> > > > > > > > > For a game series that started with “Combat Evolved” it doesn’t do the second word in that very well.
> > > > > > > > > Then when it does try and change, it is hated. As expected.
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> > > > > > > > So if I become paralyzed from the neck down, I should embrace it because it’s a change?
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> > > > > > > If you equate the change in the series currently, that I and many many others consider to be better, as being paralysed, then I don’t know what to tell you.
> > > > > > > Reach, 3 and 5 have the best MPs in the entire series in my opinion. If you want the game to keep being another game, then just play that game instead of contributing to the people holding the series back.
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> > > > > > The irony, it’s… it’s incredible.
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> > > > > > > > > > Sounded to me like you think sales decreased because of story reasons. That’s not what we’re talking about (and 99% not the reason).
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> > > > > > > > > > I did read it all unfortunately, but it just all seemed like a massive misunderstanding not only of this topic, but of most community complaints in general over the last 6 years.
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> > > > > > > > > > Also, Halo 4 did just about nothing innovative, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
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> > > > > > > > > What Halo game has done something innovative? Genuinely curious. Was trying to figure out why CE was such a hit.
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> > > > > > > > It largely comes down to the control scheme on a console (particularly the use of twin sticks and controls for both combat and vehicles), dedicated melee and grenade buttons, the two weapon limit most (all?) console shooters have used since then, and I believe even the physics were unlike what we’d FPS had seen before. There might be more, that’s just all I can think of right now.
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> > > > > > > > It would more accurately be described as “revolutionary” when taking into consideration all the things it did well that set the stage for on future console shooters are made.
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> > > > > > > Ah ok
> > > > > > > Not the game itself, more the polish and presentation? What im getting is control scheme, grenade hotkey, universal melee on everything, and the fact that it was more advanced than games that came out before it (ill assume we’re talking about Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, etc.)
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> > > > > > > Not trying to argue, but Ive always heard that the FPS genre was broken into a pre Half Life and post Half Life world. Never heard anything like that about Halo.
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> > > > > > I never heard that Half Life bit. Obviously though, without Halo, I’d imagine many of the shooters on console today would not be around. Certainly not in their current forms anyway.
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> > > > > Well wouldnt you consider the physics of Half Life to be on par with CE? And the no cutscenes part of Half Life was fairly unique. I think its safe to say Halo was one of those all time games that people will remember, but i dont think we can equate the shooters on console today being brought about by only Halo.
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> > > >
> > > > I never played the first Half Life, so I couldn’t say, but yeah the lack of cutscenes was definitely one of the things people remember about it. As far as other console shooters go, I mean when you consider the two weapon limit, the grenade/melee button, and the general controls, those are huge for an FPS to feel right and accessible. Without that starting point, how many of those devs would think to bring a shooter to consoles?
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> > > Sorry was just doing some of my own research and a lot of the things you mention didnt start with Halo. Two weapon limit, grenade button did not start with Halo. The control scheme part I agree with because Halo brought it to the mainstream. The games I can remember with similar controls is probably only the original Medal of Honor, but it didnt have a melee button, or two analogs.
> > >
> > > So I guess its just an all purpose melee button and the general control scheme?
> >
> >
> > I guess so. And maybe the type of physics in the game (particularly for vehicles and grenades), but I’m less certain of that. Which game started the two weapon limit and grenade button?
>
>
> Two weapon limit early Tom Clancy games, but I’m sure there must be some other obscure ones. Grenade button is TF Classic.
>
> More and more, it seems like the most revolutionary thing Halo CE did was bring shooters to consoles. But, talking to my slightly older family and friends, most of then argue that they did that by dumbing down the game to fit on controller.
>
> Vehicles are 100% Halo. They did it the best, and they still do. But physics I would argue Half Life did really well. It was quite popular so it’s unlikely it didn’t influence CE in some way.
>
> Undoubtedly the best thing Halo did for the genre was twin stick analog control.
TF had grenades that weren’t their own weapon or was it just bound to a key?
When I say physics, I mean how vehicles are stable when driving, yet can be sent flying or how grenades can launch the player/NPCs and move weapons around maps. Don’t know if Half Life allowed for that kind of stuff or not.