The sprint discussion thread

[tsassi]

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> > I’d pretty strongly bet that they’re going to keep on trying bet things. Classic gameplay is definitely one way to market the removal of really any mechanic introduced in the last few years. But there will always be a lot of new stuff for them to market and take our attention away from the things lost. For example, suppose they had decided to make maps vastly more dynamic than in earlier games. Then I can imagine a portion of the first multiplayer ViDoc going something like this:
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> >
> > > Developer 1: Halo’s always been about the combat, and we realized that all that time spent running around was time out of the combat. So we took out sprint so that now you can run at full speed all the time without putting your weapon down. This really put the emphasis back on combat.
> > >
> > > (short gameplay clip, fade to black, panning shot of a multiplayer map)
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> > > Developer 2: Halo’s always had some dynamic elements on the maps, but we thought, wouldn’t it be fun to take it to the next level?
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> > > (clip of map dynamics in action)
> > >
> > > Developer 3: We built this new system which allows us to easily build more complex and bigger dynamic systems onto maps than ever before. So now we can collapse parts of the map, morph entire bases, make maps out of huge tiles that can be moved around by players. . .
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> >
> > By the end of this, the player has already forgotten about sprint, watching these new dynamics in awe. (Unless they happen to be the sort of player not at all enthralled by gimmicks, but this applies to only a small portion of players.) The point is, if you have any new big features remotely in the same domain as the ones removed, you can always quickly mention the thing removed, and move on to the amazing new thing. Most of the audience will be easily persuaded hyped up players anyway.
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> Do you write those vidocs for them? Because that sounded exactly like what they would say (and it is how they should say it ).

I guess those years of following game development and way too much time spent writing those couple of lines paid off.

[Zr0Fear_v2]

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> > I personally wouldn’t mind the equipment concept returning, though they shouldn’t be as powerful as in Halo 3 where you press a button that can turn the tide of a fight. I wouldn’t mind sprint being substituted with a speed boost power up on the map (that simply increases your speed and that’s all). Equipment and power ups could be experimented with more to the benefit of the game, especially if the game cuts back on mechanics.
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> Why not? If you make them equally valuable and fought-over like boosts are now, they become essentially the same thing, except that you don’t automatically activate them by just picking them up. When you pick up a sniper or a rocket launcher or whatever, it is your choice when and where to use it. The same priciple could also apply to boosts like damage, speed, invisibility or overshield. They are map-pickups and one-time use, so as not to be as imbalanced as armor abilities. It just needs to be better telegraphed what type of item a player is holding at any given time.

Yeah, but with weapons you still need to have decent aim. Pulling the trigger once won’t be enough. In the case of power ups, they should typically be placed in certain parts of the maps based on how the devs want the game to flow. Pick ups would typically be stronger/ more useful, but you’re forced to use them in a particular part of the map. I don’t think you’d should be allowed to carry around something that could change the tide of the fight by doing no more than pressing a button. Which is why I think overshield as a power up is fine, but not as an equipment style pick up. It’s also why I don’t agree with a massive emp ball that depletes the shields of everyone in it’s radius at the press of a button while pointing in a general direction.

[harithavaraj]

Firstly, pelvic rotation means that the torso must rotate as well. The torso moving puts strain on the arm and head to maintain full aim and accuracy. I highly doubt you are running at full sprint speed when playing paintball or what not when the gun is straight out in front of you.

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> Okay, you need to tell me what you mean with “xy axis”. Where is your x-Vector pointing, where y and where z?
> Wind doesn’t hit a square-shaped spartan, because the guns themselves (at least human rifles, that is: AR, BR, DMR, etc) have roughly triangle shape in vertical direction, while the angled arms that are holding the gun form a triangle shape in horizontal direction. The Spartan forms more of a pyramid in terms of wind resistance than a flat surface, cutting the drag coefficient almost in half and significantly reducing wind resistance.

While sprinting, the torso of the human being rotates along with arm swing. This rotate in the X-Y plane of existence, meaning horizontally. Treat is as if, from the torso, straight up is Z, towards the sides are X, and front or back is Y. Rotation occurs along that X-Y plane. This rotation while running helps decrease the drag coefficient as they create smaller profiles. A spartan moving as you moved in CE-3 would have his torso and midsection square while moving forward, thus increasing the drag coefficient.

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> Nobody is denying that arm swinging -Yoink!- in running/sprinting balancing and energy efficiency. The point is that it is not the only way of achieving the same goal. Humans have adopted this way of movement over the course of millennia because, well, they didn’t need their arms for anything in the meantime, and food was scarce, so energy consumption was all the more vital. Hunting was usually done from ambush and even so, spears can be held pretty steadily with one hand while running as evidenced by those Olympic athletes you mentioned. Guns are only a very recent invention, and even the idea of movement with guns is less than 100 years old, as pre-industrial warfare was usually conducted by having two armies almost standing still while firing at each other. Even so, I already explained that holding a 3-5kg heavy rifle horizontally extended from your body puts a strain on a human soldier’s arms. But we’re not talking good ol’ -Yoink!- sapiens here, we’re talking -Yoink!- sapiens augeous, whose hydraulics-enhanced Mjolnir armor, which in and of itself already weighs half a ton, does the lifting, not the soldier inside.

The most important point you missed here is that the study only looked at normal running, not conventional sprinting. Issues like balance and energy consumption are that much higher when moving at sprint speed. Similarly, its fair to say that the effects are exaggerated for sprinting, making the energy consumption differences larger. This is not even taking into consideration that its very unlikely a human being could reach they full potential sprint speed while keeping their arms behind their back on on their heads, rather than in front of them. Also, while Mjolnir is more powered-exoskeleton than full augmentation, it does take input from the user and transfer it into relative output. There are stronger Spartans, flexible Spartans, and most definitely faster Spartans.

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> Spartans can also shoot accurately by sprinting as referenced by lore and contrary to natural human beings, they are trained to overcome their instincts, precisely because they are humans raised to be warriors from age 6. The very basic fight-or-flight-instinct is merely one example, as a panicking Spartan wouldn’t do much good in an interstellar war. In the same manner, they would disregard innate muscle memory of running, adopting different habits of movement, as it leaves them vulnerable on the battlefield.

I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.

They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.

I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.

[pajama_dad]

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> > > > It wasnt an analogy it was an example of how story and content are important and can lead to complaints despite strong shooting mechanics- all of which are part of gameplay- this being contrary to the notion that the shooting is what matters most in a fps.
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> > >
> > > It’s a weak analogy because the facts and circumstances surrounding Borderlands the Presequal and Halo 5: Guardians are totally different, because their core gameplay has completely different focuses. Borderlands is all about blasting your enemies to pieces with weapons that are buffed by a variety of factors (and zany comedy), Halo is about competitive gameplay (and was about telling a good story). Think of it this way, what do you think the Borderlands community would’ve had to say if it was turned into a hack and slash, with guns being more of a support? Probably the same kinds of things that the Halo community would say if spartan abilities took away from the gunplay, right? These are two examples that cannot be properly compared when you take their actual depth into consideration. That said, melee Zero is legend. Damage cap! One-hit OP8 Super Bad*** Loader, let’s go!
> > >
> > > Anyway, we’re talking about Halo, shooting has always been what mattered the most. Core gameplay is always the most important aspect of a FPS, regardless of its sub-genre.
> > >
> > > Story isn’t gameplay, zapping baddies with lasers while floating through low-gravity environments is.
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> >
> > youre right it would be a weak analogy, which is why I wasnt using it as one. Borderlands and halo a very different types of fps, which is why we see that story takes on a more vital role in BL- it has deep rpg elements. The point was to show a blanket statement about fps games was incorrect.
> >
> > But story can be part of the gameplay. Branching storylines and decisions, dialogue choices, etc are all gameplay features. We just dont see this in a fps as often as, say, a telltale game.
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> lol, did you just say that the story is more vital in BL than the loot?

No. I simply said more vital. Not “more vital than…” or “most vital.” In context, phrase gives more emphasis to the story when compared to other shooters such as Halo. Loot is really important in Borderlands, but really only when we get passed the story for many. I would play through Borderlands 2 right now just to experience the story because it was so good, never mind any loot or Bada$$ ranks I earned.

> …You’re a treasure hunter who’s trying to find a vault in a wasteland filled with all kinds of crazy people who sometimes quote Shakespeare. Jack’s evil, the other characters are quite charming, but all I really care about is rocket jumping with Salvador and tearing through mobs of enemies with my Unkempt Harold that has various buffs. Some of the side quests were absolutely brilliant, but the main story certainly wasn’t why most people were playing the series. There are classes and skill trees, sure, but it’s no Diablo. I don’t think that I’ve played any game more than I played Diablo II.
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> I have never played a good FPS that sacrificed gameplay over story. Goldeneye was barely coherent, and I sure wasn’t worried about the story when I was playing the single player. The same goes for Wolfenstein 3-D. A story demands a setting, and that setting needs to make use of the core gameplay, otherwise you’re playing a poorly developed game.
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> As for you making an example, you are using that example to draw dubious parallels between two games that cannot be compared.

You absolutely can compare them. To compare Halo 5 and Any of the borderlands games: Both are FIrst Person. Both use shooting guns as the primary action. Both use a health and shield mechanic. Both have multiple types of weapons. Both limit the number of weapons and grenades, and the amount of ammo carried. Both allow for jumping and ducking and precision aiming of weapons. Both have multiple types of weapons- standard fare and the more alien. Both are science fiction in nature. etc etc etc.

Mayhaps you don’t know what “compare” means?

And what dubious parallels am I drawing? Do you mean they have differences and so can be contrasted?

> Most of the people who are upset over the Presqual are upset because of the changes to its gameplay. They’re upset because they don’t want to replay the story just for a CHANCE at getting the weapon that they want. If they truly cared more about the story, then wouldn’t this be a non-issue?

If the story was absolutely brilliant would they mind playing it over and over? Your point on this isn’t very strong.

A truly great story would have mitigated the craptastic handling of loot. That the loot wasn’t handled well hurts the replay value of the game, not so much the first telling of the story.

Again, looking at BL2 I’d play through Tiny Tina’s dlc again just for the story and the humor. Who cares if I get sweet drops?

> Changing gameplay to match the story is putting the cart before the horse. How do you drive the story without solid, core gameplay? In a lot of telltale games, most of your decisions are ultimately irrelevant, so the gameplay is flat. I’ve really enjoyed the stories in some of their games, but I’d rather read a book or watch a movie than play most of the telltale games that are out there. Anyway, how is any of this relevant to the problems with Halo 5’s gameplay?

This is true on a second play through. The first walking dead game was brilliant, despite the lack of impact that some choices had. But that first play through… great. Here story and gameplay don’t allow for a varied and deep replay value. But this can work well with games like the Witcher where story matters quite a bit, and choices do as well.

This is relevant to show that story can be tied to gameplay. Being a shooter does not exclude the possibility of a deep and meaningful story, where choice matters. That few do this doesn’t change that.

A game that has great mechanics but doesn’t back that up with something more- as does Borderlands 2 with its great story lines and loot system isn’t going to do as well.

Thats the point. A shooter can be more. Shooting need not be the most important aspect of the game either. I would argue that the Loot systems in Borderlands are far more important than the nuances of the gun play. As long as the mechanics don’t hamper the player other things can shine.

[Senketsu7]

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> > > > > > > > > > The reason why sprint was added to halo was to make it more fast paced. Newer generations of gamers (me included) who didn’t grow up with halo are used to fast paced games such as battlefield, cod, and just about every other fps. It’s hard for a slow paced game like the older halos and even the newer ones to attract the gamers so they added sprint. To be honest I like sprint when I don’t have it I feel like a turtle with a gun. Sure you might not like it but your not everyone. 343 also has to appeal to the newer generations as well.
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> > > > > > > > > Flawed argument. That’s probably because you haven’t grown up with the older games, so sprint is all you know. Everyone and their mother says the new Doom game is one of the fastest paced games out now and it has no sprint. The masses don’t know what they want, they only think they know, that’s why it’s 343’s job to show you want you want. Making a fast paced game without sprint is insanely easy, but nobody - including the devs - cares to think for themselves.
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> > > > > > > > But, doom has insane movement speed, that even the old halos dont have, which is why it still appeals to new generation. the new doom also has ledge clambering which old fps’s didnt have.
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But this topic isn’t about the older games, it’s about what to do with Halo 6. Increase the base speed and remove sprint. Done. Want a little burst of speed? Use thrust for that.
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> > > > > > > Point is, sprint isn’t necessary for fast paced games and, in the case of Halo, slows it down.
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > but the point is that in order to have a faster movement speed that will keep the gameplay fast paced, the spartans would have to be in a constant state of sprint, which would break immersion. because like i said even the older halos didnt have movement speed as fast as doom. saying that h6 should just have dooms movement speed is stupid because doom already breaks the laws of physics with how fast the movement speed is. plus even if the movement speed was increased and sprint was removed, maps would still have to be made to compinsate for the faster movement speed, and therefore we would still need “bigger” maps sprint isnt the issue, map design is.
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> > > > > I don’t think that anyone wants a BMS as high as DOOM’s. 30% faster would probably be too much.
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> > > > > Sprint affects map design more than an increased BMS would.
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> > > >
> > > > i disagree. sprint effects maps because it offers more speed. a high bms i feel would act the same way.
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> > >
> > > Why would a single movement speed act the same as a double movement speed?
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> > > 110-120% would probably be the best range. Maps wouldn’t have to be made that much larger, and they’d probably play a little bit differently, but it would most likely feel like Halo again.
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> > honestly sprint didnt change how Halo felt. the biggest thing for me was actually the default button layout for H5. it made it feel more like a twitch shooter because smart link was on the trigger. but one day i decided to change the layout to H4 and it was like a light flipped on. Halo 5 felt like Halo again. all the controls felt right after that. i was thinking like a halo player again and not a twitch shooter player. sprint isnt the problem in the long run. map design and default button layout are. i also think they really need to port all of the H4 maps to H5. those maps really felt great and are already design for sprint, so they would feel right at home with H5 pace. also i really liked most of them.
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> I’ve used Bumper Jumper in every Halo game since it was first available. Halo 5 feels different.
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> Halo 4 maps felt great to you? o.O

better then halo 5 and yes i liked alot of halo 4s maps

[R4d1c47Ed]

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> > Why does a game even need sprint? Look at doom 4, hugely successful, no sprint. It just seems like an unnecessary trend to me.
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> I still don’t understand this “doom is successful” thing. Pc wise it’s sold one million copies(as of August). They don’t mention console sales at all on the article I looked at and you see the multiplayer still get heat today. Halo is not a game that can live by one side being popular more than the other. It’s really not much of a comparison between halo and doom. Halo still outsold doom even with its “success”. I won’t disagree on the sprint thing tho, halo doesn’t have to have it. But using doom which to me isn’t a successful game to begin with just seems meh. Overwatch is a much better comparison as it actually is doing fine where as I genuinely don’t see a lot of talk on doom anymore. It was pretty much a one and done deal with its campaign and that was that. It has no longevity to it with a bad multiplayer.

Have you played Doom? I thought that it was brilliant. I’ve only played through on Hurt Me Plenty, and I intend to play through Ultra Violence with everything unlocked, which should lead to some really fun gameplay. I’ll probably also play through Nightmare, and I may even attempt Ultra Nightmare. Why am I playing Halo 5 instead? I’m getting my grind on. When I’m done with that, I’ll probably play other games most of the time, because Halo 5’s campaign just doesn’t appeal to me (Genesis was pretty, though). Forge and Firefight are the only reasons why I’m even considering purchasing my own copy.

Remove sprint and increase Halo’s BMS a little bit–and design maps appropriately–and the gameplay would actually be faster paced. DOOM’s campaign was extremely well-designed, and had rock-solid gameplay. It was fast and furious even though there wasn’t an option to sprint. I can’t really comment on the multiplayer, as I’ve never played a DOOM game for its multiplayer. I think that I’ve only played a couple of matches on DOOM 3, and that was quite a while ago. DOOM 3 was good in certain respects, but DOOM was so much better. Anyway, this is pretty much off-topic, so I’m going to leave it at this: DOOM was more successful, to me, because it was properly fun. Most of Halo 5, just isn’t fun to me.

[R4d1c47Ed]

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> > > > > > > > > > > The reason why sprint was added to halo was to make it more fast paced. Newer generations of gamers (me included) who didn’t grow up with halo are used to fast paced games such as battlefield, cod, and just about every other fps. It’s hard for a slow paced game like the older halos and even the newer ones to attract the gamers so they added sprint. To be honest I like sprint when I don’t have it I feel like a turtle with a gun. Sure you might not like it but your not everyone. 343 also has to appeal to the newer generations as well.
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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Flawed argument. That’s probably because you haven’t grown up with the older games, so sprint is all you know. Everyone and their mother says the new Doom game is one of the fastest paced games out now and it has no sprint. The masses don’t know what they want, they only think they know, that’s why it’s 343’s job to show you want you want. Making a fast paced game without sprint is insanely easy, but nobody - including the devs - cares to think for themselves.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But, doom has insane movement speed, that even the old halos dont have, which is why it still appeals to new generation. the new doom also has ledge clambering which old fps’s didnt have.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But this topic isn’t about the older games, it’s about what to do with Halo 6. Increase the base speed and remove sprint. Done. Want a little burst of speed? Use thrust for that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Point is, sprint isn’t necessary for fast paced games and, in the case of Halo, slows it down.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but the point is that in order to have a faster movement speed that will keep the gameplay fast paced, the spartans would have to be in a constant state of sprint, which would break immersion. because like i said even the older halos didnt have movement speed as fast as doom. saying that h6 should just have dooms movement speed is stupid because doom already breaks the laws of physics with how fast the movement speed is. plus even if the movement speed was increased and sprint was removed, maps would still have to be made to compinsate for the faster movement speed, and therefore we would still need “bigger” maps sprint isnt the issue, map design is.
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t think that anyone wants a BMS as high as DOOM’s. 30% faster would probably be too much.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint affects map design more than an increased BMS would.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i disagree. sprint effects maps because it offers more speed. a high bms i feel would act the same way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why would a single movement speed act the same as a double movement speed?
> > > >
> > > > 110-120% would probably be the best range. Maps wouldn’t have to be made that much larger, and they’d probably play a little bit differently, but it would most likely feel like Halo again.
> > >
> > >
> > > honestly sprint didnt change how Halo felt. the biggest thing for me was actually the default button layout for H5. it made it feel more like a twitch shooter because smart link was on the trigger. but one day i decided to change the layout to H4 and it was like a light flipped on. Halo 5 felt like Halo again. all the controls felt right after that. i was thinking like a halo player again and not a twitch shooter player. sprint isnt the problem in the long run. map design and default button layout are. i also think they really need to port all of the H4 maps to H5. those maps really felt great and are already design for sprint, so they would feel right at home with H5 pace. also i really liked most of them.
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> > I’ve used Bumper Jumper in every Halo game since it was first available. Halo 5 feels different.
> >
> > Halo 4 maps felt great to you? o.O
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> better then halo 5 and yes i liked alot of halo 4s maps

Huh. The only one that I thought was remotely close to being decent was Haven, but that’s just me.

[R4d1c47Ed]

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> > > I’ve never really given a pro-sprint or anti-sprint argument. But I am interested and so I want to ask any anti-sprint folks a fairly decent question:
> > >
> > > If 343 were to remove sprint, how would they justify that decision from a gameplay perspective?
> > >
> > > Let me elaborate if you don’t already know what I am asking. If 343 were to remove sprint after having 3 games with it (I am including Reach), how can/should 343 go about justifying that to the masses? Would it not come across as though our Spartan/Chief is just moving backwards in terms of capability?
> > >
> > > I understand none of this has any impact on the gameplay and while gameplay should trump lore/story/realism, those are still important factors in varying degrees. I am not asking to “check mate” anti-sprint folks. I myself enjoyed Halo more when it was without the mechanic. But, again, I am curious.
> > >
> > > So, if you are 343 Industries and you wanted to remove sprint, how do you go about explaining that?
> >
> >
> > By explaining what it does for the gameplay. Determine the the gameplay, then build the lore around it. Probably wouldn’t be hard. After all, 343 has changed and/or broken the lore to their liking already just to justify half their changes. They can do it again.
> >
> > There would be a beta for the game anyway so the most 343 would have to say is, “Just try it out for yourself”. That’s what people will base their opinion on, not a lore explanation.
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> Okay, fair enough. What of other mechanics? How do we decide what stays and what goes? The popular belief here is that sprint needs to go as it was shamelessly added to appeal to the wider FPS audience, to which I agree with that assessment.
>
> What of clamber? Thrust? The offensive spartan abilities like ground pound and spartan charge? I suppose spartan charge would by default be gone, as there is no sprint. Should equipment return?

Clamber was unnecessary in classic Halo. Thrust has some merits, but undermines grenades. Ground Pound, could actually stay if it didn’t have hang-time. Spartan Charge could be re-balanced, but I honestly think that it’s an unnecessary addition to the gameplay. I also think that equipment could return, if the design was improved upon.

[R4d1c47Ed]

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> Firstly, pelvic rotation means that the torso must rotate as well. The torso moving puts strain on the arm and head to maintain full aim and accuracy. I highly doubt you are running at full sprint speed when playing paintball or what not when the gun is straight out in front of you.
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> > Okay, you need to tell me what you mean with “xy axis”. Where is your x-Vector pointing, where y and where z?
> > Wind doesn’t hit a square-shaped spartan, because the guns themselves (at least human rifles, that is: AR, BR, DMR, etc) have roughly triangle shape in vertical direction, while the angled arms that are holding the gun form a triangle shape in horizontal direction. The Spartan forms more of a pyramid in terms of wind resistance than a flat surface, cutting the drag coefficient almost in half and significantly reducing wind resistance.
>
>
> While sprinting, the torso of the human being rotates along with arm swing. This rotate in the X-Y plane of existence, meaning horizontally. Treat is as if, from the torso, straight up is Z, towards the sides are X, and front or back is Y. Rotation occurs along that X-Y plane. This rotation while running helps decrease the drag coefficient as they create smaller profiles. A spartan moving as you moved in CE-3 would have his torso and midsection square while moving forward, thus increasing the drag coefficient.
>
>
> > 2533274801176260;8715:
> > Nobody is denying that arm swinging -Yoink!- in running/sprinting balancing and energy efficiency. The point is that it is not the only way of achieving the same goal. Humans have adopted this way of movement over the course of millennia because, well, they didn’t need their arms for anything in the meantime, and food was scarce, so energy consumption was all the more vital. Hunting was usually done from ambush and even so, spears can be held pretty steadily with one hand while running as evidenced by those Olympic athletes you mentioned. Guns are only a very recent invention, and even the idea of movement with guns is less than 100 years old, as pre-industrial warfare was usually conducted by having two armies almost standing still while firing at each other. Even so, I already explained that holding a 3-5kg heavy rifle horizontally extended from your body puts a strain on a human soldier’s arms. But we’re not talking good ol’ -Yoink!- sapiens here, we’re talking -Yoink!- sapiens augeous, whose hydraulics-enhanced Mjolnir armor, which in and of itself already weighs half a ton, does the lifting, not the soldier inside.
>
>
> The most important point you missed here is that the study only looked at normal running, not conventional sprinting. Issues like balance and energy consumption are that much higher when moving at sprint speed. Similarly, its fair to say that the effects are exaggerated for sprinting, making the energy consumption differences larger. This is not even taking into consideration that its very unlikely a human being could reach they full potential sprint speed while keeping their arms behind their back on on their heads, rather than in front of them. Also, while Mjolnir is more powered-exoskeleton than full augmentation, it does take input from the user and transfer it into relative output. There are stronger Spartans, flexible Spartans, and most definitely faster Spartans.
>
>
> > 2533274801176260;8715:
> > Spartans can also shoot accurately by sprinting as referenced by lore and contrary to natural human beings, they are trained to overcome their instincts, precisely because they are humans raised to be warriors from age 6. The very basic fight-or-flight-instinct is merely one example, as a panicking Spartan wouldn’t do much good in an interstellar war. In the same manner, they would disregard innate muscle memory of running, adopting different habits of movement, as it leaves them vulnerable on the battlefield.
>
>
> I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.
>
> They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.
>
> I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.

Halo 3 has references that only make sense if you’re familiar with The Fall of Reach. Didn’t Halo Reach take place just before Halo CE?

No, it isn’t.

Would it have been useful? Probably. Would it have been necessary? Maybe, though that’s debatable.

[harithavaraj]

> 2533274816931642;8770:
> > 2533274848599184;8764:
> > Firstly, pelvic rotation means that the torso must rotate as well. The torso moving puts strain on the arm and head to maintain full aim and accuracy. I highly doubt you are running at full sprint speed when playing paintball or what not when the gun is straight out in front of you.
> >
> >
> > > 2533274801176260;8715:
> > > Okay, you need to tell me what you mean with “xy axis”. Where is your x-Vector pointing, where y and where z?
> > > Wind doesn’t hit a square-shaped spartan, because the guns themselves (at least human rifles, that is: AR, BR, DMR, etc) have roughly triangle shape in vertical direction, while the angled arms that are holding the gun form a triangle shape in horizontal direction. The Spartan forms more of a pyramid in terms of wind resistance than a flat surface, cutting the drag coefficient almost in half and significantly reducing wind resistance.
> >
> >
> > While sprinting, the torso of the human being rotates along with arm swing. This rotate in the X-Y plane of existence, meaning horizontally. Treat is as if, from the torso, straight up is Z, towards the sides are X, and front or back is Y. Rotation occurs along that X-Y plane. This rotation while running helps decrease the drag coefficient as they create smaller profiles. A spartan moving as you moved in CE-3 would have his torso and midsection square while moving forward, thus increasing the drag coefficient.
> >
> >
> > > 2533274801176260;8715:
> > > Nobody is denying that arm swinging -Yoink!- in running/sprinting balancing and energy efficiency. The point is that it is not the only way of achieving the same goal. Humans have adopted this way of movement over the course of millennia because, well, they didn’t need their arms for anything in the meantime, and food was scarce, so energy consumption was all the more vital. Hunting was usually done from ambush and even so, spears can be held pretty steadily with one hand while running as evidenced by those Olympic athletes you mentioned. Guns are only a very recent invention, and even the idea of movement with guns is less than 100 years old, as pre-industrial warfare was usually conducted by having two armies almost standing still while firing at each other. Even so, I already explained that holding a 3-5kg heavy rifle horizontally extended from your body puts a strain on a human soldier’s arms. But we’re not talking good ol’ -Yoink!- sapiens here, we’re talking -Yoink!- sapiens augeous, whose hydraulics-enhanced Mjolnir armor, which in and of itself already weighs half a ton, does the lifting, not the soldier inside.
> >
> >
> > The most important point you missed here is that the study only looked at normal running, not conventional sprinting. Issues like balance and energy consumption are that much higher when moving at sprint speed. Similarly, its fair to say that the effects are exaggerated for sprinting, making the energy consumption differences larger. This is not even taking into consideration that its very unlikely a human being could reach they full potential sprint speed while keeping their arms behind their back on on their heads, rather than in front of them. Also, while Mjolnir is more powered-exoskeleton than full augmentation, it does take input from the user and transfer it into relative output. There are stronger Spartans, flexible Spartans, and most definitely faster Spartans.
> >
> >
> > > 2533274801176260;8715:
> > > Spartans can also shoot accurately by sprinting as referenced by lore and contrary to natural human beings, they are trained to overcome their instincts, precisely because they are humans raised to be warriors from age 6. The very basic fight-or-flight-instinct is merely one example, as a panicking Spartan wouldn’t do much good in an interstellar war. In the same manner, they would disregard innate muscle memory of running, adopting different habits of movement, as it leaves them vulnerable on the battlefield.
> >
> >
> > I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.
> >
> > They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.
> >
> > I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.
>
>
> Halo 3 has references that only make sense if you’re familiar with The Fall of Reach. Didn’t Halo Reach take place just before Halo CE?
>
> No, it isn’t.
>
> Would it have been useful? Probably. Would it have been necessary? Maybe, though that’s debatable.

Fall of Reach was edited slightly after Halo Reach came out because Bungie took liberties with the lore in order to make Noble Team’s final mission was delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn. It was just to show that game lore takes precedence over anything not in the game. Sprinting is seen in Halo games, Spartans do sprint, guns down and arms swinging.

Physiology - dealing with the normal function of living organisms and their parst. In this case, your brain. Hence, its your brain making a rationalization about what to do in a given scenario.

The point there was not that sprint should have been in Halo CE, but rather that Spartans have the ability to sprint. Situations in which they sprint differ, but they can sprint. Likewise, in Halo, you have the ability to sprint. Choose when to do it and when not to, thats up to you.

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274855279867;8765:
> No. I simply said more vital. Not “more vital than…” or “most vital.” In context, phrase gives more emphasis to the story when compared to other shooters such as Halo. Loot is really important in Borderlands, but really only when we get passed the story for many. I would play through Borderlands 2 right now just to experience the story because it was so good, never mind any loot or Bad*** ranks I earned.

Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that the loot was what most of the RPG elements were designed around. You’re a treasure hunter, looking for a vault, with loot inside. The story is about your journey to find the vault. Borderlands is like Diablo with guns, except in Diablo, you’re trying to save the world. In Borderlands, you inadvertently save the world while trying to find loot. I mean, I’ve probably spent more time killing BNK3R than I have playing the story (JUST GIVE ME THE SHAM!!), because having the best loot in the higher difficulties is where the gameplay starts to get really good. Borderlands 2 had a real endgame, The Presequal, didn’t. The gameplay was changed. What I enjoyed the most from BL2 was Tiny Tina’s Assault on Dragon Keep. THAT was a good story.

Anyway, I don’t think that anything is more vital in The Presequal than an Oz Kit. It’s an interesting change to the gameplay, for sure.

> You absolutely can compare them. To compare Halo 5 and Any of the borderlands games: Both are FIrst Person. Both use shooting guns as the primary action. Both use a health and shield mechanic. Both have multiple types of weapons. Both limit the number of weapons and grenades, and the amount of ammo carried. Both allow for jumping and ducking and precision aiming of weapons. Both have multiple types of weapons- standard fare and the more alien. Both are science fiction in nature. etc etc etc.
>
> Mayhaps you don’t know what “compare” means?
>
> And what dubious parallels am I drawing? Do you mean they have differences and so can be contrasted?

“Borderlands the Presequel has fantastic borderlands styled gameplay, but it was knocked because it lacked the content and story of number 2.”

“And while Borderlands was a result of player expectations- its still about content and story, they expected more in the game and complained about it.”

As I have already established, there was a lot more going on with The Presequal than lacking content and story. Like I said, the only thing that’s comparable between Halo 5 and The Presqual, is how much they’ve managed to piss off large portions of their audiences. Multiple types of weapons? There are literally millions of different weapons in BL games, because of how complex they are. It’s not like you’re picking up a basic DAHL Repeater Pistol and someone else is picking up a Redundant Lady Fist. Can’t you carry four weapons (and many more in your pack), and increase your ammo and grenade count–with Eridium and certain items/skills? What’s the PvP scene like on Borderlands?

The gameplay in Borderlands 2 was what got me into playing it, not its story. It was a solid shooter, with a lot of depth, and the fact that it was so charming only added to it all. There were some problems with the gameplay in Borderlands 2 (PLEASE spawn Voracidous!), but The Presequal–yikes.

“And your point about the Presequel gameplay is very relevant to this- gameplay is more than just shooting. Presequel had great shooting. The boosting and butt-slamming and character trees were fantastic. But the loot grind was not as good as before. The story was ok. I think it was very enjoyable, but not as complete a package.”

How is the story part of the gameplay in The Presequal? Shooting, boosting, butt-slamming, and skill trees were all part of the gameplay: they were the game mechanics that combined with the loot in order to create the Borderlands experience. The story, though short, was decent, but the loot aspect of the game, wasn’t. Tell me, how is the story in The Presqual more important than its gameplay?

> If the story was absolutely brilliant would they mind playing it over and over? Your point on this isn’t very strong.
>
> A truly great story would have mitigated the craptastic handling of loot. That the loot wasn’t handled well hurts the replay value of the game, not so much the first telling of the story.
>
> Again, looking at BL2 I’d play through Tiny Tina’s dlc again just for the story and the humor. Who cares if I get sweet drops?

A long farming route is one thing, playing through several hours of story just to have another chance is quite another. Would you kindly explain how my point isn’t very strong?

I strongly disagree. Considering the drop rates, I don’t want to have to replay several hours of a game, multiple times, just for one piece of loot. That’s ridiculous. What!? A shorter story hurts the replay value of a game more than poor gameplay would? You can’t be serious. I played through Diablo II properly only once, after that, I just got rushed and then power leveled in order to experiment with different builds, most of which were geared towards PvP. I made a MF Sorc and did an uncountable amount of MF runs, and I found good gear in less time than I did playing Borderlands. The story was good, but the gameplay was what kept me playing the game for years.

I’d play through Tiny Tina’s DLC any day. It was, by far, the best story in the entirety of the Borderlands series, and the gameplay was simply fantastic. I mean, you were even able to farm for The Bee pretty early on into the DLC.

1/2

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274855279867;8765:
> This is true on a second play through. The first walking dead game was brilliant, despite the lack of impact that some choices had. But that first play through… great. Here story and gameplay don’t allow for a varied and deep replay value. But this can work well with games like the Witcher where story matters quite a bit, and choices do as well.
>
> This is relevant to show that story can be tied to gameplay. Being a shooter does not exclude the possibility of a deep and meaningful story, where choice matters. That few do this doesn’t change that.
>
> A game that has great mechanics but doesn’t back that up with something more- as does Borderlands 2 with its great story lines and loot system isn’t going to do as well.
>
> Thats the point. A shooter can be more. Shooting need not be the most important aspect of the game either. I would argue that the Loot systems in Borderlands are far more important than the nuances of the gun play. As long as the mechanics don’t hamper the player other things can shine.

It’s true only on the second playthrough? What? Most of your choices are irrelevant, the meaning in the first playthrough is superficial, because the gameplay is flat. It had a good story, sure, but is there any real replay value there? Nope. What does The Walking Dead and the Witcher have to do with whether or not gameplay is the most important aspect of an FPS? Oh, right, because Borderlands the Presequal’s gameplay is more than just about shooting, which has something to do with it’s story being part of the gameplay, how could I forget. I’ll just cut to the chase: this is one giant red herring. Nobody said that a shooter couldn’t have a deep and meaningful story. If a shooter has solid gameplay, then its story could attract more people than other titles with similar gameplay. Kind of like Halo CE did. I’m a long-time fan of Grand Theft Auto (I played it before Halo), and I’ve never finished GTA IV, because I didn’t like the gameplay–and it had the best story out of any of the GTA’s.

What games out there play like Borderlands? Here, let me help you with your analogy: Silent Hill 2 has a great, though dark, story. The music, camera angles, environments, enemies, controls–EVERYTHING, blends together in order to create a unique Survival Horror experience. There are still areas in that game that make me feel uneasy, even though I’ve unlocked every ending (8 playthroughs, I think). Here’s the thing about Silent Hill: it’s a town in which a person’s subconscious projects their inner demons into reality. So, not only is the gameplay designed to encourage anxiousness and fear, it is defined by the story: the monsters that you encounter are your own, personal demons. I don’t want to spoil their significance, as Silent Hill 2’s story is worth experiencing. Halo 5’s story, though, meh.

Getting less off-topic, of course you would argue that, because that’s what I’ve already said: Borderlands is about the loot. Being able to use that loot to rip apart mobs of enemies, is what makes Borderlands, Borderlands. Loot is the primary focus of its gameplay. Unless you’re Zero, your class and skills aren’t going to mean very much after a while if you don’t have some decent loot.

“Gameplay is more important in FPS than story or content. You can keep being wrong if you’d like, but it won’t change anything.”

I think that I’m done with this, too.

2/2

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274848599184;8771:
> > 2533274816931642;8770:
> > > 2533274848599184;8764:
> > > . . . . I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.
> > >
> > > They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.
> > >
> > > I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.
> >
> >
> > Halo 3 has references that only make sense if you’re familiar with The Fall of Reach. Didn’t Halo Reach take place just before Halo CE?
> >
> > No, it isn’t.
> >
> > Would it have been useful? Probably. Would it have been necessary? Maybe, though that’s debatable.
>
>
> Fall of Reach was edited slightly after Halo Reach came out because Bungie took liberties with the lore in order to make Noble Team’s final mission was delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn. It was just to show that game lore takes precedence over anything not in the game. Sprinting is seen in Halo games, Spartans do sprint, guns down and arms swinging.
>
> Physiology - dealing with the normal function of living organisms and their parst. In this case, your brain. Hence, its your brain making a rationalization about what to do in a given scenario.
>
> The point there was not that sprint should have been in Halo CE, but rather that Spartans have the ability to sprint. Situations in which they sprint differ, but they can sprint. Likewise, in Halo, you have the ability to sprint. Choose when to do it and when not to, thats up to you.

I haven’t read any of the novels, but I saw the animated Fall of Reach. As for sprinting in classic Halo games, have you measured to make sure that they are in fact moving faster than the BMS?

> Physiology
>
> Autonomic nervous system
> See also: Autonomic nervous system
>
> The autonomic nervous system is a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response and its role is mediated by two different components.[7]
>
> Sympathetic nervous system
> See also: Sympathetic nervous system
>
> The sympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and its main function is to activate the physiological changes that occur during the fight-or-flight response. This component of the autonomic nervous system utilizes and activates the release of norepinephrine in the reaction.[8]
>
> Parasympathetic nervous system
> See also: Parasympathetic nervous system
>
> The parasympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and medulla and works in concert with the sympathetic nervous system. Its main function is to activate the “rest and digest” response and return the body to homeostasis after the fight or flight response. This system utilizes and activates the release of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.[8]
>
> Cognitive components
>
> Content specificity
>
> The specific components of cognitions in the fight or flight response seem to be largely negative. These negative cognitions may be characterized by: attention to negative stimuli, the perception of ambiguous situations as negative, and the recurrence of recalling negative words.[21] There also may be specific negative thoughts associated with emotions commonly seen in the reaction.[22]

Fight-or-flight is an involuntary reaction, there is no rationalization made.

Except it’s not a choice in Halo 5.

[harithavaraj]

> 2533274816931642;8774:
> > 2533274848599184;8771:
> > > 2533274816931642;8770:
> > > > 2533274848599184;8764:
> > > > . . . . I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.
> > > >
> > > > They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.
> > > >
> > > > I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Halo 3 has references that only make sense if you’re familiar with The Fall of Reach. Didn’t Halo Reach take place just before Halo CE?
> > >
> > > No, it isn’t.
> > >
> > > Would it have been useful? Probably. Would it have been necessary? Maybe, though that’s debatable.
> >
> >
> > Fall of Reach was edited slightly after Halo Reach came out because Bungie took liberties with the lore in order to make Noble Team’s final mission was delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn. It was just to show that game lore takes precedence over anything not in the game. Sprinting is seen in Halo games, Spartans do sprint, guns down and arms swinging.
> >
> > Physiology - dealing with the normal function of living organisms and their parst. In this case, your brain. Hence, its your brain making a rationalization about what to do in a given scenario.
> >
> > The point there was not that sprint should have been in Halo CE, but rather that Spartans have the ability to sprint. Situations in which they sprint differ, but they can sprint. Likewise, in Halo, you have the ability to sprint. Choose when to do it and when not to, thats up to you.
>
>
> I haven’t read any of the novels, but I saw the animated Fall of Reach. As for sprinting in classic Halo games, have you measured to make sure that they are in fact moving faster than the BMS?
>
>
>
>
> > Physiology
> >
> > Autonomic nervous system
> > See also: Autonomic nervous system
> >
> > The autonomic nervous system is a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response and its role is mediated by two different components.[7]
> >
> > Sympathetic nervous system
> > See also: Sympathetic nervous system
> >
> > The sympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and its main function is to activate the physiological changes that occur during the fight-or-flight response. This component of the autonomic nervous system utilizes and activates the release of norepinephrine in the reaction.[8]
> >
> > Parasympathetic nervous system
> > See also: Parasympathetic nervous system
> >
> > The parasympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and medulla and works in concert with the sympathetic nervous system. Its main function is to activate the “rest and digest” response and return the body to homeostasis after the fight or flight response. This system utilizes and activates the release of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.[8]
> >
> > Cognitive components
> >
> > Content specificity
> >
> > The specific components of cognitions in the fight or flight response seem to be largely negative. These negative cognitions may be characterized by: attention to negative stimuli, the perception of ambiguous situations as negative, and the recurrence of recalling negative words.[21] There also may be specific negative thoughts associated with emotions commonly seen in the reaction.[22]
>
>
> Fight-or-flight is an involuntary reaction, there is no rationalization made.
>
> Except it’s not a choice in Halo 5.

Its not a choice to sprint? How so?

Its shown they are sprinting. Look at the end cutscene for the level Regret from Halo 2.

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274848599184;8775:
> > 2533274816931642;8774:
> > > 2533274848599184;8771:
> > > > 2533274816931642;8770:
> > > > > 2533274848599184;8764:
> > > > > . . . . I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games. Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument. Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.
> > > > >
> > > > > They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked. Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer. Would sprint have been useful while navigating the terrain of Halo in the first game? Hell yeah. Would a Spartan have probably sprinted at that point? Yeah. Would a Spartan from the Halo universe sprint through the middle of Midship? Probably not. Do multiplayer spartans? All the damn time. If you want to control sprint by controlling when people use it, then you’re fighting a losing battle. But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Halo 3 has references that only make sense if you’re familiar with The Fall of Reach. Didn’t Halo Reach take place just before Halo CE?
> > > >
> > > > No, it isn’t.
> > > >
> > > > Would it have been useful? Probably. Would it have been necessary? Maybe, though that’s debatable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fall of Reach was edited slightly after Halo Reach came out because Bungie took liberties with the lore in order to make Noble Team’s final mission was delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn. It was just to show that game lore takes precedence over anything not in the game. Sprinting is seen in Halo games, Spartans do sprint, guns down and arms swinging.
> > >
> > > Physiology - dealing with the normal function of living organisms and their parst. In this case, your brain. Hence, its your brain making a rationalization about what to do in a given scenario.
> > >
> > > The point there was not that sprint should have been in Halo CE, but rather that Spartans have the ability to sprint. Situations in which they sprint differ, but they can sprint. Likewise, in Halo, you have the ability to sprint. Choose when to do it and when not to, thats up to you.
> >
> >
> > I haven’t read any of the novels, but I saw the animated Fall of Reach. As for sprinting in classic Halo games, have you measured to make sure that they are in fact moving faster than the BMS?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Physiology
> > >
> > > Autonomic nervous system
> > > See also: Autonomic nervous system
> > >
> > > The autonomic nervous system is a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response and its role is mediated by two different components.[7]
> > >
> > > Sympathetic nervous system
> > > See also: Sympathetic nervous system
> > >
> > > The sympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and its main function is to activate the physiological changes that occur during the fight-or-flight response. This component of the autonomic nervous system utilizes and activates the release of norepinephrine in the reaction.[8]
> > >
> > > Parasympathetic nervous system
> > > See also: Parasympathetic nervous system
> > >
> > > The parasympathetic nervous system originates in the spinal cord and medulla and works in concert with the sympathetic nervous system. Its main function is to activate the “rest and digest” response and return the body to homeostasis after the fight or flight response. This system utilizes and activates the release of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.[8]
> > >
> > > Cognitive components
> > >
> > > Content specificity
> > >
> > > The specific components of cognitions in the fight or flight response seem to be largely negative. These negative cognitions may be characterized by: attention to negative stimuli, the perception of ambiguous situations as negative, and the recurrence of recalling negative words.[21] There also may be specific negative thoughts associated with emotions commonly seen in the reaction.[22]
> >
> >
> > Fight-or-flight is an involuntary reaction, there is no rationalization made.
> >
> > Except it’s not a choice in Halo 5.
>
>
> Its not a choice to sprint? How so?
>
> Its shown they are sprinting. Look at the end cutscene for the level Regret from Halo 2.

If you don’t sprint, then you don’t get power weapons or early map control.

I ask again: have you measured to make sure that the chief is in fact moving faster than the BMS in Halo 2?

[Celestis]

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> Firstly, pelvic rotation means that the torso must rotate as well. The torso moving puts strain on the arm and head to maintain full aim and accuracy. I highly doubt you are running at full sprint speed when playing paintball or what not when the gun is straight out in front of you.

Pelvic roatation means just that: The pelvis rotates. This has nothing to do with the torso. Want proof? Just sit in an office chair and rotate the chair below you while keeping your upper body position fixed. It’s ridiculously easy.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> While sprinting, the torso of the human being rotates along with arm swing. This rotate in the X-Y plane of existence, meaning horizontally. Treat is as if, from the torso, straight up is Z, towards the sides are X, and front or back is Y. Rotation occurs along that X-Y plane. This rotation while running helps decrease the drag coefficient as they create smaller profiles.

Alright, so z is upwards against the direction of gravity, y is (roughly) in the direction of movement and x is sideways, perpendicular to both of them.
Using this coordinate system, normal running has the arms swinging in the yz-plane, periodically moving forwards and backwards. Which basically results in the arms constantly needing energy to overcome additional wind resistance while they’re moving forward in relation to the rest of the body. And, seeing as how, according do fluid mechanics, wind and air wrap around one object (in this case the runner) the air is condensed to the sides of the moving body, createing even more friction and wind resistance.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> A spartan moving as you moved in CE-3 would have his torso and midsection square while moving forward, thus increasing the drag coefficient.

Definitely not a square but a triangle. The weapon in front neatly separates the airflow, creating less friction and an improved drag coefficient, reduced by a factor of ~0.5.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> The most important point you missed here is that the study only looked at normal running, not conventional sprinting. Issues like balance and energy consumption are that much higher when moving at sprint speed. Similarly, its fair to say that the effects are exaggerated for sprinting, making the energy consumption differences larger. This is not even taking into consideration that its very unlikely a human being could reach they full potential sprint speed while keeping their arms behind their back on on their heads, rather than in front of them. Also, while Mjolnir is more powered-exoskeleton than full augmentation, it does take input from the user and transfer it into relative output. There are stronger Spartans, flexible Spartans, and most definitely faster Spartans.

Again, I’m not arguing energy consumption here. I already admitted that running guns up increases net metabolic power, in fact I even linked the paper myself. The point of the discussion if whether or not it is possible, and the answer is yes.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> I assume the lore you are referencing is The Package from Halo Legends? At what point is all lore considered full and true to the story rather than a story with a reimagining that is varied from person to person. Halo Legends is a collection of stories that are told to us, rather than played first hand, as seen in the games.

Don’t like Legends as proof?
Here is Kat sprinting while firing her pistol in Deliver Hope.
Here is John shooting while sprinting in Forward Unto Dawn. (And not even in the same direction, mind you.)
I haven’t read the books in years but I’m damn sure that Spartans shooting while running is mentioned there as well.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> Did Fall of Reach happen or did Halo Reach happen? Its questions like this that throw the validity of using something like The Package to justify some overblown BMS and to shoot down the sprint-lore argument.

I’m not using lore to justify high BMS. In fact, I’ve always said that gameplay should take precedence before canonicity. Even if that meant including mechanics that are non-canon (like Spartans in Halo Wars having shields).
I’m using lore to disprove the bogus claim that “i makes sense because why wouldn’t a Spartan know how to sprint?”

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> Its shown (as far as I can remember) as early as Halo 2 that Master Chief can sprint, and runs like an average human being, and the game canon should take precedence over all other canon.

Are you referring to the final cutscene of Regret? Too bad, because his speed is the same 7m/s as his BMS during gameplay.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> They arent trained to overcome instincts. They are trained to rationalize through their instincts. Fight or Flight, as you mentioned, is something that Spartans have taken advantage of in the lore. Flight doesnt have to mean panicky. If a Spartan turns a corner and sees a Hunter aimed right at the doorway, does it make him panicky if he retreats? Most Spartans would do that without a second thought, hence the Fight or Flight. Fight or Flight is a rationalization you make in your head in a split second. Spartans have finely tuned this through years of combat. Likewise, when a grenade lands near someone during multiplayer, and they turn to flee from it, is that not a fitting reaction? A Spartan that turns to flee doesnt have to be panicked.

“Panic is a sudden sensation of fear, which is so strong as to dominate or prevent reason and logical thinking, replacing it with overwhelming feelings of anxiety and frantic agitation consistent with an animalistic fight-or-flight reaction. Panic may occur singularly in individuals or manifest suddenly in large groups as mass panic (closely related to herd behavior).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic
The fact that, as you already explained, Spartans don’t panic when e.g. running into a Hunter is proof that they are trained to overcome instinctive reactions. Or, should I say, “instinctive human reactions”, because it has been mentioned multiple times, both, within the games and in expanded lore that Spartans (-Yoink!- sapiens augeous) are not of the same (sub)species as “regular” humans (-Yoink!- sapiens sapiens), but rather a more highly evolved form. Not only psychologically but even genetically, with additional cybernetic improvements. The entire line of thought that Spartans should somehow adhere to normal human limitations (and, mind you, running while gunning isn’t even a human limitation) is absurd, when they have an completely different internal structure.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> Nevertheless, it is shown in game that Spartans sprint. The concept of “they would learn other forms of movement” is pretty moot once its shown they already sprint like conventional human beings.

Again, it was also shown in the games that the MJOLNIR Mark-IV supposedly had energy shields, which predates their first incorporation into the Mark-V by around 26 years. Games are know to ignore canon, and if it’s in the interest of gameplay, they have every right to do so.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> I think maybe the most glaring error here is that you treat multiplayer soldiers as if they were battle worn Spartans. Spartans are capable of sprinting yes, but also most Spartans wouldnt put their gun down to sprint all the time, unlike people do in multiplayer.

I’m not talking about Multiplayer soldiers. O.o
I’m talking about Chief in Campaign. Who, ever since 343’s takeover can do less in the games than he was able to before.

> 2533274848599184;8764:
> But Spartans do, can, and have sprinted before, and all that shows is that the option is there if they want to use it.

…while still retaining their ability to shoot, yes.

[Celestis]

> 2533274848599184;8771:
> Fall of Reach was edited slightly after Halo Reach came out because Bungie took liberties with the lore in order to make Noble Team’s final mission was delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn. It was just to show that game lore takes precedence over anything not in the game. Sprinting is seen in Halo games, Spartans do sprint, guns down and arms swinging.

On the contrary. Expanded universe lore has repeatedly overridden depictions from the games. Halo Wars Spartans having shields. The warthog run in The Maw being longer than the actual Pillar of Autumn (and in the wrong direction). The Forward Unto Dawn being an entirely different class of ship in Halo 4. The list goes on.

[Celestis]

> 2533274855279867;8765:
> If the story was absolutely brilliant would they mind playing it over and over? Your point on this isn’t very strong.
>
> A truly great story would have mitigated the craptastic handling of loot. That the loot wasn’t handled well hurts the replay value of the game, not so much the first telling of the story.
>
> Again, looking at BL2 I’d play through Tiny Tina’s dlc again just for the story and the humor. Who cares if I get sweet drops?

I can only speak for myself, but if a game’s story were amazing, but its gameplay were total trash, then no, I would not play that game. I’d rather watch a Let’s Play or a Recut of the Cinematics on YouTube.

[LLamb5auce]

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

please… stop this thread… it’s killing us all…

[JIMLUKE104]

You people need to learn to deal with a new ability, one that fits perfectly into this game. Who cares about the golden triangle??

Sprint made it so you can dodge & change the tide of a fight. It changes the timing of the game and I like that. Constant speed is awful/predictable.