The sprint discussion thread

[tsassi]

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> > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
>
>
> Halo 4 had a pretty great story and tons of different modes at launch, yet still lost 50% of its players after ten days(!) and a total 95% within its first year.
> Bad story and lack of modes are just additional issues that H5G has compared to its predecessor. They are not the sole reason for the drop.
> I don’t know if sprint (or the gameplay in total) is the reason. But as long as 343 refuses to release a classic game, we will never find out.

It still pains me to see people referencing that bigoted thread that lacks any notion of scientific honesty, understanding of population metrics (not to mention the data right in front of their eyes), and is so blinded by its own agenda that it presents obviously factually incorrect information about the popularity of Halo 3 and Reach (probably due to the aforementioned lack of understanding of population metrics).

First of all, the whole the validity of the statement “lost X% of players” based on any arbitrary population figure (daily peak, 24 hour UU, weekly UU, monthly UU, etc.) would warrant a whole separate discussion of its own. “Lost X% of players” implies that X% quit playing altogether, but it should be clear that the peak population in no way describes how many players quit. After all, if all players take away 30% of their daily play time, this will have a diminishing effect on the daily peak population, but I think we can agree that this in no way means that any amount of players have quit playing. To answer the question: “what portion of players actually quit?” we’d first need to define what counts as “quitting”. Has a player who only plays once a month on average “quit”? Once a year? Once a week? Where do we draw the line. This is a very complicated thing to agree on, and after we have agreed on that, we don’t have the data. It’s not possible to infer solely from peak population data how many players have quit altogether.

The only sensible, honest, and nonsensationalizing way to put it is “the daily peak population of Halo 4 decreased to 50% from its launch day value in 10 days, and to 5% in a year”. People will still interpret that as wrongly as they wish, but at least at that point you’re not commiting the sin of misrepresenting the data.

Now, the second thing to consider is that “50% in ten days” and “95% in a year” sound like huge numbers, but there’s no context for them whatsoever. When we look at the 24 hour UU counts (which are less prone to change, by the way, because players decreasing their hours played per day don’t affect these), we see that the 24hUU count of Halo 3 was 70% of the launch day value after ten days, and 50% after a year (mind you, the numbers vary significantly from day to day). For Halo Reach, the corresponding numbers were 110% (funnily, Reach was still on the rise after ten days), and 20% respectively. This isn’t to say that 5% of the launch day peak population for Halo 5 isn’t something significant, but the purpose of these numbers is to give some context for how the player retention of Halo games has been in general.

Finally, I have to say more about that factual inaccuracy I pointed out. The creator of that thread you linked failed in two respects. First, they failed to understand the difference between daily peak population and 24 hour UU count. Secondly, Halo 3 did not have a 24 hour UU count of 1.1 million between its 40th, and the release of ODST. The closest number is 1.04 million at 562th day. For Halo Reach, on the other hand, the highest reliable number that can be found after a year is about 595,000 at 486th day.

And this is why I kindly ask, as much as I wouldn’t want to toot my own horn, next time you need to reference Halo 4 population data (or any Halo population data for that matter), please do me a favor and use the data I’ve gathered, organized, and analyzed, not to drive any agenda, but because I was genuinely curious.

[Captain_Jigyu]

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> > > > > > I suppose, but i just have a hard time believing the slower style of game play will just bring back the masses of individuals who either have adopted the new gameplay style or moved on.
> > > > > > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Then make it not “slow”. Not sure why that doesn’t seem to cross anyones mind.
> > > > > You also seem to think that everyone that’s moved on hasn’t done so because they don’t like the gameplay anymore. Switching it back to the classic style would very likely encourage them to come back and give it another chance.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I respectivly disagree. Does movement play I role into why some left? Sure. But it’s not the main reason, again, most people despite what you hear on these forums do like the new abilities. They’re not going anywhere
> > >
> > >
> > > Most people that still play the game. Problem is, that’s not many. Take a look at a non-biased forum and you may find the results surprising.The movement abilities aren’t going anywhere? Has there been any mechanic added in this series that has not eventually been removed? There’s almost no reason at all to think they won’t be removed.
> >
> >
> > Point to something other than reach where an ability has flat out been removed. Theres a difference between adding upon whats already there and out right removing it from its formula.
> >
> > I just dont see the result of the population being a mechanic problem as much as it is a lack of variety of launch and terrible story problem.
>
>
> Can you point to anything that has been added and not removed eventually? I can’t imagine there’s much. Dual wielding, equipment, armor abilitites, loadouts, ordinance, and almost every other CoD thing Halo 4 added.
>
> So then why did Reach not have a particular good population and why did Halo 4 have a -Yoink- population? Those games had the content at launch and good stories. Seems like every time the population of a new game plummets (and, in this case, the sales too) it’s just a new excuse. There’s always an excuse. As if every 3 years Halo just happens to run into the perfect storm of everything that can go wrong.

In the end you cant point to one area of the game over the other in terms of why the population has suffered, but im willing to wager that it has more to do with the variety of games people have been exposed to over the years as well as flaws that halo 5 possess such as lack of variety and story.

I think no matter what you do with the movement mechanics you wont really see a noticeable difference in the population just because they decide to go back to the old mechanics.

[SiN_SHOOT2KILL]

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> > > > > > > > > > > > I suppose, but i just have a hard time believing the slower style of game play will just bring back the masses of individuals who either have adopted the new gameplay style or moved on.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Then make it not “slow”. Not sure why that doesn’t seem to cross anyones mind.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It has crossed people’s minds… Not sure why you’d make that assumption. Having the option to sprint or walk is still much better.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why is multiple player speeds better for the gameplay than a single fast speed?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Because it increases verisimilitude in an otherwise futuristic science fiction space odessy… In real life you can walk or run, so I’ll take realistic things like that where I can get them in Halo. Also, canon- read any Halo novel with Spartans and they describe them as characters that can run, jump, and sometimes swim.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is a game not a simulator, so immersion is not a reason. Why does it benefit the gameplay?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah, counter, counter, rebut, and counter like you always have done in this thread… Why even ask what the opposing side thinks when you honestly just do not care at all?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn’t say I wanted Halo to become a virtual simulator, rather MY OPINION (which doesn’t have to match yours) is that more realism is nice to have in certain circumstance- sprint being one them. The ability to choose to either walk or run is nice in my opinion. So go ahead and scan this post for fodder to try and break it down in order to bolster your endless argument to support your own opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, so it does not benefit the gameplay then. That’s all you needed to say.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wow do you feel proud of yourself when you twist people’s words around like that? Does it add fulfillment to your day to scan these posts for fodder and try to “beat,” people out when they say they like sprint? That’s all you’ve done here, time and time again. Your method of arguing your stance here has not productive because you do not give the opposing side any significant thought at all.
> > > >
> > > > And contrary to your cool one-liner response, 343i trying to enhance realism and stay true to canon DOES INDEED benefit gameplay for those of us who care and/or notice those sorts of things… You know, because not everyone on earth will always see things your way on stuff like this…
> > >
> > >
> > > I don’t really need to scan your post for fodder. I asked a question and you couldn’t answer it. It’s a sprint thread, either get your arguments in order or just leave the thread. Don’t whine when I point out how you can’t explain the benefit of sprint on the gameplay.
> >
> >
> > I did answer your question, fully. I explained how sprint does benefit gameplay and why it’s important to people (understanding you won’t agree with my reasoning but many will). You scanned and you chewed it up and spit back my opinion and told me to leave the thread because you know you won’t persuade me to your side and you don’t feel like shredding up my point any further whether it’s because you can’t or you’ve given up on this one. Ultimately what you’re telling me is that you do not agree with my opinion so you want me out of the thread.
> >
> > My complaint is that your method of arguing in this thread is disrespectful to the opposing view. Not everything you’ve said is disrespectful, but when you get into an “argument,” (I prefer debates because they’re actually two-sided) first you try to persuade pro-sprinters to your side and then when that fails you progress to minimizing and attacking those who do not agree with you.
> >
> > By the way, most reasonable people understand there’s a difference between being unable to answer a question and not answering it for other reasons. I mean, perhaps some people won’t want to answer you because they know you’re going to twist things around to support your own point of view on sprint anyway. Either way everyone in this thread does not have to answer everyone of your questions to be able to post here. You can’t just tell people they aren’t allowed to post here if they do not agree with you or do what you want.
>
>
> No, you told me that it was immersive. That has nothing to do with gameplay. I don’t attack anyone for having the opposing view. That’s why I don’t bother with those who come in and make a one off post saying, “I think it should stay” or “I like it”. When someone mentions a gameplay related reason why it should remain, I’ll debate that, but that’s not what you did.

I’m not going to go back and quote what I said because since I just posted it and you couldn’t read it a few minutes ago, I doubt it’ll help for me to repost it again for you.

But like the previous times that you’ve misquoted me in this thread-- there was definitely more than what you chose to key in on and extract for the sake of your own argument… This is what I mean when I say that the opposing point of view does not matter to you. What I say in response to what you ask will not result in a two-way debate. What I say in response to your questions will result in you trying to formulate a way to either 1) shoot down my opinion by extracting things that support your opinion or 2) you’ll try to force me out of the thread again using your own trail of logic that somehow my opinion doesn’t matter to the point that I should have no business posting in this thread. Look my point is that although I’ve frequently provided reasons as to why sprint is beneficial to Halo, ultimately I could just say, “I like sprint,” and my opinion would still matter. Maybe to you it doesn’t matter but you still can’t just minimize the people that feel that way and/or angrily demand that they back out of the thread because they won’t engage with you on the subject.

Maybe one day you’ll wake up and realize that not every debate is about winning and losing… Sometimes just the way people feel about one side or the other is all you’ll get/need to extract useful feedback. For instance, 343i may poll users to see how they feel about a feature and all they would need to say is, “I like it,” to generate useful feedback regarding a facet of the game. This may not be useful feedback for you, but if this truly presents such a problem for you as you have indicated multiple times then maybe you should ask yourself, “Is it them or is it me?”

[Captain_Jigyu]

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> > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
>
>
> Halo 4 had a pretty great story and tons of different modes at launch, yet still lost 50% of its players after ten days(!) and a total 95% within its first year.
> Bad story and lack of modes are just additional issues that H5G has compared to its predecessor. They are not the sole reason for the drop.
> I don’t know if sprint (or the gameplay in total) is the reason. But as long as 343 refuses to release a classic game, we will never find out.

ok? but were not talking about 4 here…do those stats still hold true for 5?

[Zr0Fear_v2]

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> > > > > > > I suppose, but i just have a hard time believing the slower style of game play will just bring back the masses of individuals who either have adopted the new gameplay style or moved on.
> > > > > > > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then make it not “slow”. Not sure why that doesn’t seem to cross anyones mind.
> > > > > > You also seem to think that everyone that’s moved on hasn’t done so because they don’t like the gameplay anymore. Switching it back to the classic style would very likely encourage them to come back and give it another chance.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I respectivly disagree. Does movement play I role into why some left? Sure. But it’s not the main reason, again, most people despite what you hear on these forums do like the new abilities. They’re not going anywhere
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Most people that still play the game. Problem is, that’s not many. Take a look at a non-biased forum and you may find the results surprising.The movement abilities aren’t going anywhere? Has there been any mechanic added in this series that has not eventually been removed? There’s almost no reason at all to think they won’t be removed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Point to something other than reach where an ability has flat out been removed. Theres a difference between adding upon whats already there and out right removing it from its formula.
> > >
> > > I just dont see the result of the population being a mechanic problem as much as it is a lack of variety of launch and terrible story problem.
> >
> >
> > Can you point to anything that has been added and not removed eventually? I can’t imagine there’s much. Dual wielding, equipment, armor abilitites, loadouts, ordinance, and almost every other CoD thing Halo 4 added.
> >
> > So then why did Reach not have a particular good population and why did Halo 4 have a -Yoink- population? Those games had the content at launch and good stories. Seems like every time the population of a new game plummets (and, in this case, the sales too) it’s just a new excuse. There’s always an excuse. As if every 3 years Halo just happens to run into the perfect storm of everything that can go wrong.
>
>
> In the end you cant point to one area of the game over the other in terms of why the population has suffered, but im willing to wager that it has more to do with the variety of games people have been exposed to over the years as well as flaws that halo 5 possess such as lack of variety and story.
>
> I think no matter what you do with the movement mechanics you wont really see a noticeable difference in the population just because they decide to go back to the old mechanics.

Then we agree to disagree.

[LIGAS_of_EARTH]

Thanks to H3 having no major changes from H2 it’s not easy to get people to see that every new Halo was different from the last.
Sprintless Halo isn’t better, just a bunch of angry sticks in the mudd like it better.
Oh, no! the perfect ideal Halo core mechanics are ruined! (HCE to H2&H3, H3 to Reach, Reach to H4, H4 to H5)
If you really are convinced that a new Sprintless Halo can bring back the HALO FPS glory days then there’s no amount of reasonable dialogue to end this discussion.

[GeT_ThAt_T4nG]

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> Thanks to H3 having no major changes from H2 it’s not easy to get people to see that every new Halo was different from the last.
> Sprintless Halo isn’t better, just a bunch of angry sticks in the mudd like it better.
> Oh, no! the perfect ideal Halo core mechanics are ruined!
> If you really are convinced that a new Sprintless Halo can bring back the HALO FPS glory days then there’s no amount of reasonable dialogue to end this discussion.

There is no evidence proving that classic Halo wouldn’t revive the franchise.
But we can look at the population of Halo 2/3.
We can look at the big popilation drop off with Halo Reach.
We can look at the biggest population drop off with Halo 4.
And we can see that not even a year after Halo 5 released, the population isn’t that great for this game either.

Sprint is the common denominator between the Halo games that have had population issues.
Is it the only reason? No.
Most people on my friends list stopped playing this game bc Of Sprint, OP autos, and poorly designed maps.

But to sit there and say classic Halo couldn’t revive the series, or at least bring in a larger population is foolish.

The only way to know for sure is for a Halo game to be made that resembles the classic gameplay.

It won’t be made though, bc of the “vision” 343 has to emulate COD with Halo in the title.

[Lost_Art_Comics]

I think they should keep and I have been playing since halo 1. If you wanted to test your theory they could make a couple playlist hoppers that have classic moment sets and see what the community wants.

I doubt they’ll do this because they have a def ear to the community.

[Captain_Jigyu]

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> > > > > > > > I suppose, but i just have a hard time believing the slower style of game play will just bring back the masses of individuals who either have adopted the new gameplay style or moved on.
> > > > > > > > Besides, the game play IMO inst really the problem here, its the story direction and lack of variety at launch that i think has people more up in arms.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then make it not “slow”. Not sure why that doesn’t seem to cross anyones mind.
> > > > > > > You also seem to think that everyone that’s moved on hasn’t done so because they don’t like the gameplay anymore. Switching it back to the classic style would very likely encourage them to come back and give it another chance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I respectivly disagree. Does movement play I role into why some left? Sure. But it’s not the main reason, again, most people despite what you hear on these forums do like the new abilities. They’re not going anywhere
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Most people that still play the game. Problem is, that’s not many. Take a look at a non-biased forum and you may find the results surprising.The movement abilities aren’t going anywhere? Has there been any mechanic added in this series that has not eventually been removed? There’s almost no reason at all to think they won’t be removed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Point to something other than reach where an ability has flat out been removed. Theres a difference between adding upon whats already there and out right removing it from its formula.
> > > >
> > > > I just dont see the result of the population being a mechanic problem as much as it is a lack of variety of launch and terrible story problem.
> > >
> > >
> > > Can you point to anything that has been added and not removed eventually? I can’t imagine there’s much. Dual wielding, equipment, armor abilitites, loadouts, ordinance, and almost every other CoD thing Halo 4 added.
> > >
> > > So then why did Reach not have a particular good population and why did Halo 4 have a -Yoink- population? Those games had the content at launch and good stories. Seems like every time the population of a new game plummets (and, in this case, the sales too) it’s just a new excuse. There’s always an excuse. As if every 3 years Halo just happens to run into the perfect storm of everything that can go wrong.
> >
> >
> > In the end you cant point to one area of the game over the other in terms of why the population has suffered, but im willing to wager that it has more to do with the variety of games people have been exposed to over the years as well as flaws that halo 5 possess such as lack of variety and story.
> >
> > I think no matter what you do with the movement mechanics you wont really see a noticeable difference in the population just because they decide to go back to the old mechanics.
>
>
> Then we agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

[Luke_Pawlowski]

> 2533274839169051;8307:
> Thanks to H3 having no major changes from H2 it’s not easy to get people to see that every new Halo was different from the last.
> Sprintless Halo isn’t better, just a bunch of angry sticks in the mudd like it better.
> Oh, no! the perfect ideal Halo core mechanics are ruined! (HCE to H2&H3, H3 to Reach, Reach to H4, H4 to H5)
> If you really are convinced that a new Sprintless Halo can bring back the HALO FPS glory days then there’s no amount of reasonable dialogue to end this discussion.

A lot of people like to say this, but what reasoning is there to believe this? Why would taking sprint out be disastrous? Would it be as disastrous that the changes Bungie and 343i have made? Why has every game that had sprint become less and less popular?

Sprintless is the future. At this point, Halo has had Sprint for 3 main series games in a row. Keeping it is staying the same, not the other way around.

The lowest sales in the series, and a game with a massive population drop off is what 343i has produced so far. Maybe it’s time to look at what made the original trilogy unique, and to stop copy and pasting mechanics from other games onto Halo because, “familiarity.” How can Doom, and Overwatch, and CS:GO all be extremely popular without Sprint? Why is there this idea that sprint is the only thing keeping people around? People don’t play a game for sprint. People play games for the gameplay. If the gameplay is hurt by sprint then it is the devs responsibility to remove it.

[Naqser]

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> > Halo 6 could be the game EVERYONE wants by removing sprint in campaign (yes because who the -Yoink- needs TWO movement speeds in campaign???) and
> > arena multiplayer at first I thought a no sprint playlist might be optimal but hear me out. I pretty sure the new spartan abilities (save -Yoinking!- spartan charge) would be GENERALLY accepted in a halo game if they werent accompanied by sprint it would feel more competitive more strategic and would also still be recognizable to the fine tuned experience we got in halo 5. Warzone and customs would be a whole other beast entirely retaining ALL the features that made halo 5 successful would keep warzone great and would also allow more options for custom games, for those people that actually wanted to play in a sprint arena type setting they could actually fire up the in game custom game lobby adjust the filter and be good to go! lets face it, sprint has NO place in competitve halo and to argue that it does would just be absurd. this would allow arena maps to continue to be designed the PROPER way and please the vets and basically everyone whos willing to give it a chance and you wouldnt lose much of your sprint loving audience at all because there would still be sprint in the game it would just take a backseat!
> > Thoughts? :3
>
>
> FOR GOD SAKE ONCE YOU ADD SPRINT TO IT YOU CANT TAKE IT AWAY OTHERWISE ITLL MESS WITH THE LORE AND A TON OF OTHER ^$

Armor Abilities
Dual Wielding
Descope - Flinch - Descope
Bloom
Custom Loadouts

What makes sprint so special?

[R4d1c47Ed]

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> > > > > > > > > Huge change?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It’s not so much about the large maps as large maps are already inherently large and stretched. Usually because designing a map for vehicles and for sprint call for the same types of things.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The problem lies in the small maps. Look at midship/heretic and then look at truth. It’s huge and stretched. Every area of the map is significantly larger and stretched out than it’s midship/heretic counterpart. Where are the small, tight maps? Where are the maps like wizard, chillout, lockout, guardian? Nowhere. You can’t make maps that are small and tight in a game with sprint.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is where I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think sprint is the cause… but it certainly doesn’t help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Small maps are just gone. you don’t see them anymore. Or if they’re around they feel very different.
> > > > > > > Beaver Creek? Never again. Lockout? Nah, bigger is better. Turf? They must have cleared out the scarab and moved people back in, cuz I’m not seeing it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Part of the problem is online play- you don’t need small maps for the local 2v2 anymore. As well, better connections and hardware mean we can have larger games (which are awesome yeah), but without small maps its all starts to feel like a 4v4 big team battle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t help this. As designed, sprint would make a simple small map like Wizard or Warlock feel very cramped. You would need to redesign how sprint works (and then it wouldn’t be the familiar sprint we see across the genre) or have maps more complicated- sorta the way Ivory tower stacks a lot of space in its verticality Sprint isn’t a big deal there compared to something else where paths are straighter. Complicated isn’t bad… but I say not being able to do simple is a detriment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With something like truth… I don’t think this was stretched for sprint. Rather I think they reimagined it as a larger map. I bet they could have taken midship and worked it into something smaller. But then it would have likely been very different and less recognizable as related to midship.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Somebody tested this, Truth is scaled to sprint. It takes just as long to cross with sprint as it did to run across Midship.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i know. I’ve tested it. Its pretty close, but not in every direction, which is why its more a reimagining than a scaled remake.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, either way, the only gamemode that feels somewhat similar to classic Halo is CTF, and that’s only because you can juggle the flag and use your thrusters. It definitely doesn’t have as many tactics as Midship did.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don’t disagree, but at the same time an old map should be expected to play differently in a new game. the h3 version played differently than h2 with the changes to architecture and weapons. The question is if its still fun.
> > >
> > > The real reason why people are upset with Sprint is that the game just isn’t as fun for them as before. Map design, changes to gameplay, etc. being what they are.
> > >
> > > For me the loss of split screen was huge, more so than anything else. Halo 6 is not going to happen without it. Halo 5 almost didn’t happen, but my son decided to spend his birthday money to buy a used copy.
> >
> >
> > Heretic didn’t play that much differently than Midship, and it was still a great objective map. The biggest changes were the gameplay, i.e. not as much jump height, which was why it played somewhat differently. Truth, however, plays so differently that it’s practically foreign.
> >
> > The core gameplay was solid before the addition of sprint. The reason why it isn’t as fun is because it has less depth: complexity does not inherently increase depth. People are upset because when they play a Halo title, they aren’t expecting to play every other modern FPS.
> >
> > The loss of split-screen is my main contention with Halo 5. If Halo 6 sacrifices split-screen for 60 FPS, then I won’t even bother playing it, let alone purchasing it.
>
>
> well… the changes in h5 are more dramatic than between 2 and 3, so thats expected. I actually think it was a mistake to try and adapt older small maps for h5… its just not a small map game- I’m trying to picture lock out with clamber and sprint (gross)- but Colossus? maybe…
>
> Cant emphasize split screen enough…

Yes, it is to be expected, classic Halo maps were designed for gameplay that didn’t have sprint. Why didn’t they just remake the classic maps for a classic Halo playlist?

Colossus felt almost too big because of how the cover was laid out. Snipers was an amazing gametype for that map.

Indeed, no split-screen, no purchase.

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274855279867;8224:
> > 2533274816931642;8210:
> > > 2533274855279867;8184:
> > > That would work too. I recall playing a game on the 360 a while back where your character would automatically start sprinting after you ran at full normal speed without turning for a few seconds. it worked great. You didn’t have to worry about sprinting over short distances. No one was going to run away from a fight. etc.
> >
> >
> > Bungie actually considered adding this feature into Halo 2, but they removed it because it created pacing problems.
> >
> > I think that such a feature would be less broken, if sprint was to remain.
>
>
> I’ve seen footage, but never an official source for “pacing issues”. I’m curious what bungie was trying, because there are definitey parts of h2 campaign that would be great with sprint.

I went and watched a bunch of commentary and behind the scenes stuff, and I wasn’t really able to find any quotes. However, when considered logically, how would sprint not cause pacing issues? Part of the skill in classic Halo was predicting your opponents movement. The variable of sprint introduces additional calculations, and so enemy movement becomes superficially unpredictable. A constant BMS also allows for a measured map design, in that the TTK can really shine. Environments shape engagements. When maps are designed around sprint, they encourage it from a point of necessity, rather than from a point of tactics and strategy. If maps weren’t designed around sprint, then do you think that they would encourage the former, or the latter?

What parts of Halo 2’s campaign would’ve been great with sprint?

[LIGAS_of_EARTH]

> 2533274800772611;8311:
> > 2533274839169051;8307:
> > Thanks to H3 having no major changes from H2 it’s not easy to get people to see that every new Halo was different from the last.
> > Sprintless Halo isn’t better, just a bunch of angry sticks in the mudd like it better.
> > Oh, no! the perfect ideal Halo core mechanics are ruined! (HCE to H2&H3, H3 to Reach, Reach to H4, H4 to H5)
> > If you really are convinced that a new Sprintless Halo can bring back the HALO FPS glory days then there’s no amount of reasonable dialogue to end this discussion.
>
>
> A lot of people like to say this, but what reasoning is there to believe this? Why would taking sprint out be disastrous? Would it be as disastrous that the changes Bungie and 343i have made? Why has every game that had sprint become less and less popular?
>
> Sprintless is the future. At this point, Halo has had Sprint for 3 main series games in a row. Keeping it is staying the same, not the other way around.
>
> The lowest sales in the series, and a game with a massive population drop off is what 343i has produced so far. Maybe it’s time to look at what made the original trilogy unique, and to stop copy and pasting mechanics from other games onto Halo because, “familiarity.” How can Doom, and Overwatch, and CS:GO all be extremely popular without Sprint? Why is there this idea that sprint is the only thing keeping people around? People don’t play a game for sprint. People play games for the gameplay. If the gameplay is hurt by sprint then it is the devs responsibility to remove it.

DOOM, Overwatch, and CS:GO oh my!
DOOM’s base movement speed is really faster than Halo’s sprint and it’s bad MP is full of lame shotgun chargers.
Overwatch is a new and stranglely popular class based shooter, but then again Blizzard knows how to make gamers into addicts (which has nothing to do with those CGI prons that most likely leaked from Blizzard’s own staff).
CS:GO the ageless tactical PC shooter won’t die like a million year old vampire (it’s not the gambling that’s helping to keep it popular it’s microtransactions and new content updates that keep it going).
Face it guys Halo is in the backseat thanks to easy to play overhyped CoD and there’s no way to fix it.
Personally I’ve had enough sprintless Halo for a lifetime and I know it’s return would ensure Halo’s ultimate death.

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274855279867;8227:
> > 2533274819567236;8226:
> > > 2535466914543129;8225:
> > > > 2533274855279867;8224:
> > > > I’ve seen footage, but never an official source for “pacing issues”. I’m curious what bungie was trying, because there are definitey parts of h2 campaign that would be great with sprint.
> > >
> > >
> > > That’s because Bungie never came out and said that sprint ruins the pacing because if that was the case then why would they include it in Reach? The “claim” comes from a youtuber that claims to have spoken to a developer. Speaking of developers, who wants a new Halo dev?
> >
> >
> > It wouldn’t be hard to confirm whether or not he’s telling the truth. He told us the name of the employee who told him that. Had he simply said, “an ex-Bungie employee told me this” without mentioning a name, then there would be reason not to believe. Plus, there’s this, where one of the animators confirms it and provides closest thing to proof as one could. This isn’t some sort of conspiracy theory, it’s just about whether or not a mechanic was cut from a game from 12 years ago, there’s nothing to hide. Skeptical? Then go ask the employee yourself. Otherwise, it’s just denial.
> >
> > BTW, Bungie was already mentally checked out by Reach. They used Reach as a testing ground for Destiny. Can’t say I’m surprised you hadn’t noticed.
>
>
> Denial? No one is denying that the animation exists or that it was created by Bungie. But the lack of source for why it was cut is the issue. Even if it was cut due to “pacing issue” what does that mean? Campaign pacing? Development Pacing? PvP pacing?
>
> Then to say that Reach doesn’t count is just as much of a denial. It seems to me, given the quote you link to about bungie being slammed with Halo 3, they solved their “pacing issues” satisfactorily with reach. You could then contend that Halo 2 and possibly 3 would have had sprint had the solution been available earlier.

Those animations didn’t even make it out of the alpha. In the behind the scenes video that I watched, it was explained that Bungie always started with the story, and then designed the rest of the game around it. As for what that means with regard to the existence of sprint animations, I guess it’s up to you to infer what that means. Who knows, maybe it had something to do with hardware limitations, and the possible implementation of sprint would’ve been so limited that it was deemed an unnecessary use of resources. But then, there’s Occam’s Razor.

Anyway, one thing that I still remember to this day was crossing the underground bridge on Two Betrayals. The Flood popping out from behind cover was done so well, and the amount of programming that would’ve been required to account for sprint would’ve made it more challenging to create, as well as increased the amount of processes that were occurring.

Reach was a spin-off. A lot of people were put-off by its gameplay. Halo 4 is dead, and people are still playing Halo 3, almost 10 years later. Doesn’t that say something?

[Luke_Pawlowski]

> 2533274839169051;8315:
> > 2533274800772611;8311:
> > > 2533274839169051;8307:
> > > Thanks to H3 having no major changes from H2 it’s not easy to get people to see that every new Halo was different from the last.
> > > Sprintless Halo isn’t better, just a bunch of angry sticks in the mudd like it better.
> > > Oh, no! the perfect ideal Halo core mechanics are ruined! (HCE to H2&H3, H3 to Reach, Reach to H4, H4 to H5)
> > > If you really are convinced that a new Sprintless Halo can bring back the HALO FPS glory days then there’s no amount of reasonable dialogue to end this discussion.
> >
> >
> > A lot of people like to say this, but what reasoning is there to believe this? Why would taking sprint out be disastrous? Would it be as disastrous that the changes Bungie and 343i have made? Why has every game that had sprint become less and less popular?
> >
> > Sprintless is the future. At this point, Halo has had Sprint for 3 main series games in a row. Keeping it is staying the same, not the other way around.
> >
> > The lowest sales in the series, and a game with a massive population drop off is what 343i has produced so far. Maybe it’s time to look at what made the original trilogy unique, and to stop copy and pasting mechanics from other games onto Halo because, “familiarity.” How can Doom, and Overwatch, and CS:GO all be extremely popular without Sprint? Why is there this idea that sprint is the only thing keeping people around? People don’t play a game for sprint. People play games for the gameplay. If the gameplay is hurt by sprint then it is the devs responsibility to remove it.
>
>
> DOOM, Overwatch, and CS:GO oh my!
> DOOM’s base movement speed is really faster than Halo’s sprint and it’s bad MP is full of lame shotgun chargers.
> Overwatch is a new and stranglely popular class based shooter, but then again Blizzard knows how to make gamers into addicts (which has nothing to do with those CGI prons that most likely leaked from Blizzard’s own staff).
> CS:GO the ageless tactical PC shooter won’t die like a million year old vampire (it’s not the gambling that’s helping to keep it popular it’s microtransactions and new content updates that keep it going).
> Face it guys Halo is in the backseat thanks to easy to play overhyped CoD and there’s no way to fix it.
> Personally I’ve had enough sprintless Halo for a lifetime and I’d know it’s return would ensure Halo’s ultimate death.

All three though show that a game can not have sprint and still be popular in 2016. That was my point. This idea that FPS games in 2016 need sprint is nonsense. The only way that it is going to succeed again is to make it it’s own thing. Halo used to be a unique game. It played unlike anything else. Go back to those roots. Going back to DOOM, look at how successful it was for going back to its roots. The devs even talked about how their original idea for the next DOOM game was too similar to other games on the market, and that they needed to go back to the series roots to stand out. 343i have done the exact opposite. At every opportunity they make their game more like others, to make it stand out less instead of more. “Sprint is required because people expect it.” This is the wrong way to look at this IMO. CoD people are always going to prefer CoD. By making Halo more like other games, they are only alienating their core fanbase. This is why Halo 5 has the lowest sales in the series.

[Gothic6Midnight]

keep sprint

[RashSPARTAN117]

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

HALO 6

[system]

[deleted]

[R4d1c47Ed]

> 2533274855279867;8247:
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> > > > > > > > > 2535466914543129;8225:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274855279867;8224:
> > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen footage, but never an official source for “pacing issues”. I’m curious what bungie was trying, because there are definitey parts of h2 campaign that would be great with sprint.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That’s because Bungie never came out and said that sprint ruins the pacing because if that was the case then why would they include it in Reach? The “claim” comes from a youtuber that claims to have spoken to a developer. Speaking of developers, who wants a new Halo dev?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It wouldn’t be hard to confirm whether or not he’s telling the truth. He told us the name of the employee who told him that. Had he simply said, “an ex-Bungie employee told me this” without mentioning a name, then there would be reason not to believe. Plus, there’s this, where one of the animators confirms it and provides closest thing to proof as one could. This isn’t some sort of conspiracy theory, it’s just about whether or not a mechanic was cut from a game from 12 years ago, there’s nothing to hide. Skeptical? Then go ask the employee yourself. Otherwise, it’s just denial.
> > > > > > > > BTW, Bungie was already mentally checked out by Reach. They used Reach as a testing ground for Destiny. Can’t say I’m surprised you hadn’t noticed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denial? No one is denying that the animation exists or that it was created by Bungie. But the lack of source for why it was cut is the issue. Even if it was cut due to “pacing issue” what does that mean? Campaign pacing? Development Pacing? PvP pacing?
> > > > > > > Then to say that Reach doesn’t count is just as much of a denial. It seems to me, given the quote you link to about bungie being slammed with Halo 3, they solved their “pacing issues” satisfactorily with reach. You could then contend that Halo 2 and possibly 3 would have had sprint had the solution been available earlier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like I said, go ask the employee.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I’ll just call him right up… oh yeah. He said it was nonsense. Sprint was scrapped because Microsoft wanted halo to remain unique from other shooters. It had nothing to do with pacing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > He has a twitter. Not hard to figure out. If you made the effort to even google his name, you’d know this.
> > >
> > >
> > > Why tweet him when I can call him. Thats like facebook messaging someone in the same room. So lame.
> > >
> > > Also, I’d know a lot of things if I googled stufff. Duh. Thats, like, so obvious.
> >
> >
> > Then do whatever. You’re the one that needs convincing.
>
>
> Its not really about convincing me. “Pacing Issues” is too vague to mean any one thing. And asking an art guy 10 years after the fact isn’t going to be terribly illuminating unless the pacing was directly related to getting the art assets done. Taking about pacing at the early stages of development doesn’t mean much. It might have had nothing to do with PvP but rather the timing of triggered events campaign like the scarabs moving through the city. And given the relative crudeness of the animations I’m guessing it was too early in the process to be well documented in video or interviews from the time, which would be the best sources.

Sprint could’ve affected rendering and triggered events, definitely. Why wasn’t it put into multiplayer?