> 2728296738546254;8104:
> I understand the entire argument very well since I used to be in the vocal anti-sprint crowd. I’ve concluded that it’s not sprint that’s the problem. It’s Spartan Charge. If Spartan Charge wasn’t so effective or could be countered, there would be less incentive to run around. I find consistently sprinting works against you unless you can bash people in the process. I’d like to see a more effective counter to sprint/Spartan Charge when you see it coming in Halo 6. Then if the Arena maps were smaller in addition, there would be even less reason to run around. I think adding all the spots to artificially clamber was also a bad idea.
>
> Sprint in Halo 5 is not a game changer is low latency matches unless it’s leading to a lot of Spartan Charge kills. I’m still not the biggest fan of it but it’s not game breaking or Halo breaking. It has it’s place in single player and Warzone. For that reason, I think it stays. I just think they need to make it less of a factor in Arena.
What does any of this have to do with the effects of sprint?
I would love to have armor abilities, like in Halo Reach.
> 2535459404215346;8103:
> Everyones always complaining of what they should add or remove i think Halo 5 is a masterpiece and should be respected as such.
In some ways, yes. In many others, absolutely not.
Genesis was pretty.
> 2728296738546254;8104:
> I understand the entire argument very well since I used to be in the vocal anti-sprint crowd. I’ve concluded that it’s not sprint that’s the problem. It’s Spartan Charge. If Spartan Charge wasn’t so effective or could be countered, there would be less incentive to run around. I find consistently sprinting works against you unless you can bash people in the process. I’d like to see a more effective counter to sprint/Spartan Charge when you see it coming in Halo 6. Then if the Arena maps were smaller in addition, there would be even less reason to run around. I think adding all the spots to artificially clamber was also a bad idea.
>
> Sprint in Halo 5 is not a game changer is low latency matches unless it’s leading to a lot of Spartan Charge kills. I’m still not the biggest fan of it but it’s not game breaking or Halo breaking. It has it’s place in single player and Warzone. For that reason, I think it stays. I just think they need to make it less of a factor in Arena.
It should either be a split Arena, or without sprint entirely. Sprint either creates pacing problems, or ruins map design–apparently.
> 2533274839169051;8105:
> > 2533274832130936;8093:
> > > 2533274839169051;8092:
> > > Let’s be real if they remove sprint in H6 and it does the same sales as H5G or less or bombs you guys will still just blame REACH, H4, & H5G while saying those ruined Halo so no one is coming back ever.
> > > On the unlikely off chance sprintless H6 does better than the recent Halos it will be likely we all have been transported to another world in which there’s only one console with only one FPS game on the entire planet.
> >
> >
> > Because the halos with sprint have done so well right?
> > we have no had three games with sprint and the best one of the three in both sales and player population/player retention wise has been halo reach regardless of what 343 will tell you
> >
> > Halo with sprint has had its chance and (for a number of different reasons including sprint) has failed
> > It’s time for halo to evolve again and the most logical evolution is to remove sprint and return to a more classic movement system
>
>
> Blaming sprint for Halo’s decline in popularity is as narrow sighted as blaming the KISS disco album for the death of disco music and I for one don’t want see classic disco Halo try at a comeback (unless it’s a prequel before REACH/HCE with some sort of ODST small side project vibe to it so everyone knows it’s just an off shoot one time thing).
Wasn’t Reach supposed to be “an off-shoot one time thing”?
we are living in a pokemon go world now where game fads only last weeks, new content has to come out near constantly to maintain interest and you all are looking to de-sprint HALO just to recapture something that’s simply lost to time, unless a bunch of young hipster thing it’s retro, lame, ironic enough to reclaimer that FPS game of thrones (sorry the dragons aren’t coming for Halo).
> 2533274816931642;8126:
> > 2533274839169051;8105:
> > > 2533274832130936;8093:
> > > > 2533274839169051;8092:
> > > > Let’s be real if they remove sprint in H6 and it does the same sales as H5G or less or bombs you guys will still just blame REACH, H4, & H5G while saying those ruined Halo so no one is coming back ever.
> > > > On the unlikely off chance sprintless H6 does better than the recent Halos it will be likely we all have been transported to another world in which there’s only one console with only one FPS game on the entire planet.
> > >
> > >
> > > Because the halos with sprint have done so well right?
> > > we have no had three games with sprint and the best one of the three in both sales and player population/player retention wise has been halo reach regardless of what 343 will tell you
> > >
> > > Halo with sprint has had its chance and (for a number of different reasons including sprint) has failed
> > > It’s time for halo to evolve again and the most logical evolution is to remove sprint and return to a more classic movement system
> >
> >
> > Blaming sprint for Halo’s decline in popularity is as narrow sighted as blaming the KISS disco album for the death of disco music and I for one don’t want see classic disco Halo try at a comeback (unless it’s a prequel before REACH/HCE with some sort of ODST small side project vibe to it so everyone knows it’s just an off shoot one time thing).
>
>
> Wasn’t Reach supposed to be “an off-shoot one time thing”?
Cameo of MC + campaign, mp, firefight & invasion is enough to put it at full fledged Halo.
> 2533274839169051;8119:
> > 2533274816931642;8117:
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> > > It’s just how you percieve the sprint ability, sure it changed halo, it might’ve given people a disadvantage who were not used to sprint, or it made fans feel like it’s not halo anymore idk but if you use the ability to your advantage there really is nothing to hate about it am I right? I like sprint just fine, I’d think if they took it away many people would complain, and I’ve been playing halo since early 2000s
> >
> >
> > So, how I perceive the sprint ability, affects Halo’s map design? Huh?
>
>
> oh no tiny fish bowl sized maps like Midship are gone and lost forever!
> frankly i’m more choked up that the odd HCE maps like Boarding Action & Chiron TL-34 haven’t comeback thanks to how H2/3 ruined the classic HCE kind of PC arena.
It’s been a very long time since I played on Boarding Action and Chiron. Man-cannons could work really well on Boarding Action.
Midship was a classic objective map. The gameplay was intense.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I say OP makes this a poll. I’d like to see the percentages of people that prefer sprint compared to those who don’t.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some polls pertaining to sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now of course you will probably say that these polls don’t mean anything because I’m assuming they are going to be contrary to what you believe, but here they are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reditt poll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beyond.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and finally just for the sake of showing unbiased here is a poll from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waypoint You will see that the first two polls show a wide margin of people in favour of having sprint removed compared to staying and in the waypoint poll it’s actually pretty close but still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > slightly in favour for sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS. Polls don’t mean anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite to the contrary; I think sprint should be removed. I am also irrated at the fact that non halo fans are dictating halo’s mechanics. It just goes to show mismanagement of the franchise when you are trying to appeal to a new audience despite it hurting and destroying the fan base they currently have. And you’re right polls mean nothing. It’s hilarious that the polls are so definitive yet 343/Microsoft refuse to adjust the gameplay mechanics to how the fans want them. Polls are meaningless when developers/publishers hold a franchise hostage.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Then I honestly apologise for making the assumption
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > i I love how despite those two polls I referenced Quinn del Hoya states that 77% of players polled wanted sprint to remain in the “offical poll” 343 conducted
> > > > > > > > > > > > For referenceThis is is what’s known as selection bias , especially considering there are other polls in other communities which swing as much as 95% in favour of removing sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I also enjoyed how during the development of H4 they said that they (343) intentionally hired people who “didn’t like halo”
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Using polls as a way to design a game is a horrendous strategy.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Let’s say im making a building and I invite 1000 people in to give me their opinions on the building. 900 of these people say it’s amazing. They love it. It looks really cool and fancy. The other 100 say(who just happen to be engineers by trade) tell you that it is structurally flawed, unstable and dangerous. Should I ignore those 100 people because they are in a 90-10% minority? Obviously not.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > That’s actually a pretty poor analogy.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > To relate that back to what we are talking about it would have to be applied like this:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I add a new feature (sprint) to a video gamee and ask for 1000 people’s opinions. 900 people love the new feature. 100 people do not, those 100 people are game designers.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > That’s essentially what you said with the 100 people who were engineers and know about building construction.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > All 1000 of us (i’m sure there are a few exceptions), are just fans playing the game, not game developers. It seems like 900 people like sprint (and are likely younger/new generation players) & 100 people don’t like sprint (which are likely older generation, don’t change the winning formula players.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok. Let’s change that from engineers by trade to “people who seem to atleast want to talk about the structural integrity of the building instead of just talking about how cool the paint colour is”. Better?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The problem with this sprint debate is that one side is looking deeper at the mechanic while the other is only looking at the very most surface layer. If someone can actually explain to 343 how sprint affects each area of the game and why those effects are good, than that’s awesome. However 10,000 people saying “I like sprint because it looks cool” doesn’t mean anything. These types of people clearly have no idea how sprint affects the other aspects of the game. Due to this sprint could actually be a huge detrimental game mechanic to those same people. They just don’t see it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The reason sprint debates look like “veterans/good players vs new/bad players” is simply because those vets/good players are the players who understand the game. They see how every aspect of the game’s design affects the other aspects. That knowledge is generally what makes good players good. This knowledge also reveals the flaws of sprint. Newer players don’t see these flaws because all they see is the surface layer of sprint. What it literally is as a mechanic. They don’t see the subtle influences it has on other mechanics. This is why if you look through this thread you’ll see a lot of posts along the lines of “what’s the problem you just press a button and go fast. Don’t like it, don’t press the button”.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I still have yet to see a competent argument for pro sprint, and many of the non competent arguments change sides after having evreything explained to them. If 343 put an evolved settings btb/arena playlist in for a week I bet it would be the most populated playlist as long as it’s in the game.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > maybe because you haven’t looked?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’ve been on this thread since around page ten where I first posted to now, I’ve missed maby ten pages between them and now and the best I’ve seen is immersion,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which is 343’s justification for the inclusion of sprint. It makes no sense to me when 343 talks about immersion and realism in this game, while the game never looks realistic and mechanics are not immersive and unrealistic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not immersive? The mechancs feel great to me as far as immersion goes.
> > > >
> > > > Thats what you call opinion.
> > >
> > >
> > > The point he’s making is that plenty of other things kill immersion, unlimited ammo vehicles, shields taking more damage to the head, being unable to go prone, having an AR with no range and less damage per bullet than a pistol, the halo games never were super immersive and realistic, we aren’t playing a simulator game.
> >
> >
> > immersion and simulator are not the same thing. You can be highly immersed in something that isn’t highly realistic. Immersion is subjective and dependent on the level of player engagement and empathy
> >
> > I understand his point, but said point is not effective. Few people worry about what happens to the extra bullets in a magazine when you reload… but loads of people care about feeling sluggish when playing a game where the entire galaxy is at stake (oh noes!).
>
>
> But with a 120 BMS you wouldn’t be sluggish at all. This is where doom fits in as a much better example, there were plenty of life or death moments with large amounts of suspense but they never made you feel slow because you couldn’t sprint.
I don’t know if I like 120… I actually like the slower pace. What I want is frenetic action- and that is well accomplished by responsive movement. I thought reach was great… except your spartan took forever to get moving.
The time from stop to full speed needs to be negligible.
> 2533274839169051;8127:
> we are living in a pokemon go world now where game fads only last weeks, new content has to come out near constantly to maintain interest and you all are looking to de-sprint HALO just to recapture something that’s simply lost to time, unless a bunch of young hipster thing it’s retro, lame, ironic enough to reclaimer that FPS game of thrones (sorry the dragons aren’t coming for Halo).
I remember when video games came out as complete, stand-alone packages. With DLC, who needs to actually finish a game before selling it?
> 2533274816931642;8112:
> > 2533274855279867;8055:
> > > 2535430546770643;8041:
> > > > 2533274855279867;8037:
> > > > Huge change?
> > >
> > >
> > > It’s not so much about the large maps as large maps are already inherently large and stretched. Usually because designing a map for vehicles and for sprint call for the same types of things.
> > >
> > > The problem lies in the small maps. Look at midship/heretic and then look at truth. It’s huge and stretched. Every area of the map is significantly larger and stretched out than it’s midship/heretic counterpart. Where are the small, tight maps? Where are the maps like wizard, chillout, lockout, guardian? Nowhere. You can’t make maps that are small and tight in a game with sprint.
> >
> >
> > This is where I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think sprint is the cause… but it certainly doesn’t help.
> >
> > Small maps are just gone. you don’t see them anymore. Or if they’re around they feel very different.
> > Beaver Creek? Never again. Lockout? Nah, bigger is better. Turf? They must have cleared out the scarab and moved people back in, cuz I’m not seeing it.
> >
> > Part of the problem is online play- you don’t need small maps for the local 2v2 anymore. As well, better connections and hardware mean we can have larger games (which are awesome yeah), but without small maps its all starts to feel like a 4v4 big team battle.
> >
> > Sprint doesn’t help this. As designed, sprint would make a simple small map like Wizard or Warlock feel very cramped. You would need to redesign how sprint works (and then it wouldn’t be the familiar sprint we see across the genre) or have maps more complicated- sorta the way Ivory tower stacks a lot of space in its verticality Sprint isn’t a big deal there compared to something else where paths are straighter. Complicated isn’t bad… but I say not being able to do simple is a detriment.
> >
> > With something like truth… I don’t think this was stretched for sprint. Rather I think they reimagined it as a larger map. I bet they could have taken midship and worked it into something smaller. But then it would have likely been very different and less recognizable as related to midship.
>
>
> Somebody tested this, Truth is scaled to sprint. It takes just as long to cross with sprint as it did to run across Midship.
i know. I’ve tested it. Its pretty close, but not in every direction, which is why its more a reimagining than a scaled remake.
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> > > > > 2533274839169051;8092:
> > > > > Let’s be real if they remove sprint in H6 and it does the same sales as H5G or less or bombs you guys will still just blame REACH, H4, & H5G while saying those ruined Halo so no one is coming back ever.
> > > > > On the unlikely off chance sprintless H6 does better than the recent Halos it will be likely we all have been transported to another world in which there’s only one console with only one FPS game on the entire planet.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Because the halos with sprint have done so well right?
> > > > we have no had three games with sprint and the best one of the three in both sales and player population/player retention wise has been halo reach regardless of what 343 will tell you
> > > >
> > > > Halo with sprint has had its chance and (for a number of different reasons including sprint) has failed
> > > > It’s time for halo to evolve again and the most logical evolution is to remove sprint and return to a more classic movement system
> > >
> > >
> > > Blaming sprint for Halo’s decline in popularity is as narrow sighted as blaming the KISS disco album for the death of disco music and I for one don’t want see classic disco Halo try at a comeback (unless it’s a prequel before REACH/HCE with some sort of ODST small side project vibe to it so everyone knows it’s just an off shoot one time thing).
> >
> >
> > Wasn’t Reach supposed to be “an off-shoot one time thing”?
>
>
> Cameo of MC + campaign, mp, firefight & invasion is enough to put it at full fledged Halo.
ODST didn’t have a Chief Cameo, but it had a campaign and introduced Firefight. Would you call it a full-fledged Halo? Why or why not?
Why wasn’t Reach simply called Halo 4?
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> > > > I never said none of that was sprint- i don’t know if you’re strawman’ing me, stating the obvious, or simply misreading. Now, I have no doubts that there were people who disliked sprint. But to laud the 10x increase in a Sprint debate is disingenuous at best. My suspicion was that bloom played the biggest part of it, followed by the AA’s and then map selection. Reach played really well without bloom, as it turns out, more so with the right settings.
> > > > I’ll have to look up viking. the recent halo games have been so bland that I really couldn’t name a single map… (y’know its that one map with the stuff and the thing…). The thing about it now isn’t that sprint is causing these dead zones, but that 343 can’t manage to design a map that plays exceptionally. My guess is that they intended some of these areas to be more empty and only act as a path or region in-between other zones. That isn’t sprint, thats 343 making maps larger simply by making empty space. There is nothing about sprint that necessitates large empty space.
> > >
> > >
> > > You know how I know im right? In h4 343 added Legendary slayer. It had no AAs, it had no bloom and it used some more classic style maps. Guess what? It didn’t budge the population needle one bit. Why? It still had sprint. You can remove all those other issues and keep sprint and the population won’t change. Remove sprint? 10x jump in population. This isn’t a theory or an assumption. This is history. These are facts.
> > >
> > > 343 didn’t make viking. It’s a community forge map. Sprint 100% necessitates empty space.
> >
> >
> > viking is community? crud. I havent kept up on it since other games have come out.
> >
> > Still, h4 legendary isnt proof of anything. I’m fairly certain Reach was more popular that 4 population wise. Halo 4 had a number of other systems at work as well that might have kept people away. Those alone mean you cannot say for certain that sprint was the cause. Again, did it matter? Yes, for some. Is it the biggest factor? You cannot say… but given you dont seem to know what “necessitates” means, I’ll let you slide.
>
>
> Truth has a lot of empty space compared to Midship because it’s scaled to sprint, and nobody sprints the entire time. It doesn’t flow well.
>
> As for other games, Halo 2, 3, and ODST interested me so much that I’ve never played Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories, and Vice City was my second favorite GTA. Halo 4 was so off-putting that I still haven’t completed my first specialization. In Halo 5, the most glaring issue is maps that are designed around sprint.
>
> Anyway, I’m not sure that Moltened’s claim can be inferred because of how different H4 was. I know that I stopped playing because GTA V was a much, much better game.
yeah… H5 came out and I was thrilled that the action felt tight and intense… and then I went back to what I was doing. I think it took me… about 2 hours to figure the game out. Played for a few more days, linked up with a friend (which makes just about any game a blast)… And now I’m done. Ther
e’s something about h4 and 5 that just aren’t fun. I played reach a ton despite the issues with bloom and jetpack… but not 4 and 5.
overwatch though… If it werent for work and my kids I would be playing that a lot more.
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> > > > > Huge change?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It’s not so much about the large maps as large maps are already inherently large and stretched. Usually because designing a map for vehicles and for sprint call for the same types of things.
> > > >
> > > > The problem lies in the small maps. Look at midship/heretic and then look at truth. It’s huge and stretched. Every area of the map is significantly larger and stretched out than it’s midship/heretic counterpart. Where are the small, tight maps? Where are the maps like wizard, chillout, lockout, guardian? Nowhere. You can’t make maps that are small and tight in a game with sprint.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is where I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think sprint is the cause… but it certainly doesn’t help.
> > >
> > > Small maps are just gone. you don’t see them anymore. Or if they’re around they feel very different.
> > > Beaver Creek? Never again. Lockout? Nah, bigger is better. Turf? They must have cleared out the scarab and moved people back in, cuz I’m not seeing it.
> > >
> > > Part of the problem is online play- you don’t need small maps for the local 2v2 anymore. As well, better connections and hardware mean we can have larger games (which are awesome yeah), but without small maps its all starts to feel like a 4v4 big team battle.
> > >
> > > Sprint doesn’t help this. As designed, sprint would make a simple small map like Wizard or Warlock feel very cramped. You would need to redesign how sprint works (and then it wouldn’t be the familiar sprint we see across the genre) or have maps more complicated- sorta the way Ivory tower stacks a lot of space in its verticality Sprint isn’t a big deal there compared to something else where paths are straighter. Complicated isn’t bad… but I say not being able to do simple is a detriment.
> > >
> > > With something like truth… I don’t think this was stretched for sprint. Rather I think they reimagined it as a larger map. I bet they could have taken midship and worked it into something smaller. But then it would have likely been very different and less recognizable as related to midship.
> >
> >
> > Somebody tested this, Truth is scaled to sprint. It takes just as long to cross with sprint as it did to run across Midship.
>
>
> i know. I’ve tested it. Its pretty close, but not in every direction, which is why its more a reimagining than a scaled remake.
Well, either way, the only gamemode that feels somewhat similar to classic Halo is CTF, and that’s only because you can juggle the flag and use your thrusters. It definitely doesn’t have as many tactics as Midship did.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I say OP makes this a poll. I’d like to see the percentages of people that prefer sprint compared to those who don’t.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some polls pertaining to sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now of course you will probably say that these polls don’t mean anything because I’m assuming they are going to be contrary to what you believe, but here they are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reditt poll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beyond.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and finally just for the sake of showing unbiased here is a poll from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waypoint You will see that the first two polls show a wide margin of people in favour of having sprint removed compared to staying and in the waypoint poll it’s actually pretty close but still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > slightly in favour for sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS. Polls don’t mean anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite to the contrary; I think sprint should be removed. I am also irrated at the fact that non halo fans are dictating halo’s mechanics. It just goes to show mismanagement of the franchise when you are trying to appeal to a new audience despite it hurting and destroying the fan base they currently have. And you’re right polls mean nothing. It’s hilarious that the polls are so definitive yet 343/Microsoft refuse to adjust the gameplay mechanics to how the fans want them. Polls are meaningless when developers/publishers hold a franchise hostage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Then I honestly apologise for making the assumption
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > i I love how despite those two polls I referenced Quinn del Hoya states that 77% of players polled wanted sprint to remain in the “offical poll” 343 conducted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For referenceThis is is what’s known as selection bias , especially considering there are other polls in other communities which swing as much as 95% in favour of removing sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I also enjoyed how during the development of H4 they said that they (343) intentionally hired people who “didn’t like halo”
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Using polls as a way to design a game is a horrendous strategy.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s say im making a building and I invite 1000 people in to give me their opinions on the building. 900 of these people say it’s amazing. They love it. It looks really cool and fancy. The other 100 say(who just happen to be engineers by trade) tell you that it is structurally flawed, unstable and dangerous. Should I ignore those 100 people because they are in a 90-10% minority? Obviously not.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That’s actually a pretty poor analogy.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To relate that back to what we are talking about it would have to be applied like this:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I add a new feature (sprint) to a video gamee and ask for 1000 people’s opinions. 900 people love the new feature. 100 people do not, those 100 people are game designers.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That’s essentially what you said with the 100 people who were engineers and know about building construction.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > All 1000 of us (i’m sure there are a few exceptions), are just fans playing the game, not game developers. It seems like 900 people like sprint (and are likely younger/new generation players) & 100 people don’t like sprint (which are likely older generation, don’t change the winning formula players.)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ok. Let’s change that from engineers by trade to “people who seem to atleast want to talk about the structural integrity of the building instead of just talking about how cool the paint colour is”. Better?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The problem with this sprint debate is that one side is looking deeper at the mechanic while the other is only looking at the very most surface layer. If someone can actually explain to 343 how sprint affects each area of the game and why those effects are good, than that’s awesome. However 10,000 people saying “I like sprint because it looks cool” doesn’t mean anything. These types of people clearly have no idea how sprint affects the other aspects of the game. Due to this sprint could actually be a huge detrimental game mechanic to those same people. They just don’t see it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The reason sprint debates look like “veterans/good players vs new/bad players” is simply because those vets/good players are the players who understand the game. They see how every aspect of the game’s design affects the other aspects. That knowledge is generally what makes good players good. This knowledge also reveals the flaws of sprint. Newer players don’t see these flaws because all they see is the surface layer of sprint. What it literally is as a mechanic. They don’t see the subtle influences it has on other mechanics. This is why if you look through this thread you’ll see a lot of posts along the lines of “what’s the problem you just press a button and go fast. Don’t like it, don’t press the button”.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I still have yet to see a competent argument for pro sprint, and many of the non competent arguments change sides after having evreything explained to them. If 343 put an evolved settings btb/arena playlist in for a week I bet it would be the most populated playlist as long as it’s in the game.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > maybe because you haven’t looked?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve been on this thread since around page ten where I first posted to now, I’ve missed maby ten pages between them and now and the best I’ve seen is immersion,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which is 343’s justification for the inclusion of sprint. It makes no sense to me when 343 talks about immersion and realism in this game, while the game never looks realistic and mechanics are not immersive and unrealistic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not immersive? The mechancs feel great to me as far as immersion goes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats what you call opinion.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The point he’s making is that plenty of other things kill immersion, unlimited ammo vehicles, shields taking more damage to the head, being unable to go prone, having an AR with no range and less damage per bullet than a pistol, the halo games never were super immersive and realistic, we aren’t playing a simulator game.
> > >
> > >
> > > immersion and simulator are not the same thing. You can be highly immersed in something that isn’t highly realistic. Immersion is subjective and dependent on the level of player engagement and empathy
> > >
> > > I understand his point, but said point is not effective. Few people worry about what happens to the extra bullets in a magazine when you reload… but loads of people care about feeling sluggish when playing a game where the entire galaxy is at stake (oh noes!).
> >
> >
> > But with a 120 BMS you wouldn’t be sluggish at all. This is where doom fits in as a much better example, there were plenty of life or death moments with large amounts of suspense but they never made you feel slow because you couldn’t sprint.
>
>
> I don’t know if I like 120… I actually like the slower pace. What I want is frenetic action- and that is well accomplished by responsive movement. I thought reach was great… except your spartan took forever to get moving.
>
> The time from stop to full speed needs to be negligible.
Then why not just have an acceleration mechanic without a button press that adds up to sprint speed but has no animation that stops you from shooting.
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> > > > > I never said none of that was sprint- i don’t know if you’re strawman’ing me, stating the obvious, or simply misreading. Now, I have no doubts that there were people who disliked sprint. But to laud the 10x increase in a Sprint debate is disingenuous at best. My suspicion was that bloom played the biggest part of it, followed by the AA’s and then map selection. Reach played really well without bloom, as it turns out, more so with the right settings.
> > > > > I’ll have to look up viking. the recent halo games have been so bland that I really couldn’t name a single map… (y’know its that one map with the stuff and the thing…). The thing about it now isn’t that sprint is causing these dead zones, but that 343 can’t manage to design a map that plays exceptionally. My guess is that they intended some of these areas to be more empty and only act as a path or region in-between other zones. That isn’t sprint, thats 343 making maps larger simply by making empty space. There is nothing about sprint that necessitates large empty space.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You know how I know im right? In h4 343 added Legendary slayer. It had no AAs, it had no bloom and it used some more classic style maps. Guess what? It didn’t budge the population needle one bit. Why? It still had sprint. You can remove all those other issues and keep sprint and the population won’t change. Remove sprint? 10x jump in population. This isn’t a theory or an assumption. This is history. These are facts.
> > > >
> > > > 343 didn’t make viking. It’s a community forge map. Sprint 100% necessitates empty space.
> > >
> > >
> > > viking is community? crud. I havent kept up on it since other games have come out.
> > >
> > > Still, h4 legendary isnt proof of anything. I’m fairly certain Reach was more popular that 4 population wise. Halo 4 had a number of other systems at work as well that might have kept people away. Those alone mean you cannot say for certain that sprint was the cause. Again, did it matter? Yes, for some. Is it the biggest factor? You cannot say… but given you dont seem to know what “necessitates” means, I’ll let you slide.
> >
> >
> > Truth has a lot of empty space compared to Midship because it’s scaled to sprint, and nobody sprints the entire time. It doesn’t flow well.
> >
> > As for other games, Halo 2, 3, and ODST interested me so much that I’ve never played Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories, and Vice City was my second favorite GTA. Halo 4 was so off-putting that I still haven’t completed my first specialization. In Halo 5, the most glaring issue is maps that are designed around sprint.
> >
> > Anyway, I’m not sure that Moltened’s claim can be inferred because of how different H4 was. I know that I stopped playing because GTA V was a much, much better game.
>
>
> yeah… H5 came out and I was thrilled that the action felt tight and intense… and then I went back to what I was doing. I think it took me… about 2 hours to figure the game out. Played for a few more days, linked up with a friend (which makes just about any game a blast)… And now I’m done. Ther
> e’s something about h4 and 5 that just aren’t fun. I played reach a ton despite the issues with bloom and jetpack… but not 4 and 5.
>
> overwatch though… If it werent for work and my kids I would be playing that a lot more.
Jetpacks, the best, worst idea. Halo 4 and Halo 5 aren’t as fun because their gameplay and map design don’t mesh together in a very cohesive way. Reach had a few maps that were somewhat decent (mostly remakes), and Firefight Arcade was absolutely brilliant (and actually made armor abilities make sense). With the addition of Action Sack, Riftball manages to make sense of H5’s movement system. I honestly believe that the gameplay could be done very well, and be very appealing–in a separate title.
I haven’t played Overwatch, but its gameplay does look interesting.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I say OP makes this a poll. I’d like to see the percentages of people that prefer sprint compared to those who don’t.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some polls pertaining to sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now of course you will probably say that these polls don’t mean anything because I’m assuming they are going to be contrary to what you believe, but here they are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reditt poll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beyond.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and finally just for the sake of showing unbiased here is a poll from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waypoint You will see that the first two polls show a wide margin of people in favour of having sprint removed compared to staying and in the waypoint poll it’s actually pretty close but still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > slightly in favour for sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS. Polls don’t mean anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite to the contrary; I think sprint should be removed. I am also irrated at the fact that non halo fans are dictating halo’s mechanics. It just goes to show mismanagement of the franchise when you are trying to appeal to a new audience despite it hurting and destroying the fan base they currently have. And you’re right polls mean nothing. It’s hilarious that the polls are so definitive yet 343/Microsoft refuse to adjust the gameplay mechanics to how the fans want them. Polls are meaningless when developers/publishers hold a franchise hostage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then I honestly apologise for making the assumption
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i I love how despite those two polls I referenced Quinn del Hoya states that 77% of players polled wanted sprint to remain in the “offical poll” 343 conducted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For referenceThis is is what’s known as selection bias , especially considering there are other polls in other communities which swing as much as 95% in favour of removing sprint
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also enjoyed how during the development of H4 they said that they (343) intentionally hired people who “didn’t like halo”
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Using polls as a way to design a game is a horrendous strategy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s say im making a building and I invite 1000 people in to give me their opinions on the building. 900 of these people say it’s amazing. They love it. It looks really cool and fancy. The other 100 say(who just happen to be engineers by trade) tell you that it is structurally flawed, unstable and dangerous. Should I ignore those 100 people because they are in a 90-10% minority? Obviously not.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s actually a pretty poor analogy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To relate that back to what we are talking about it would have to be applied like this:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I add a new feature (sprint) to a video gamee and ask for 1000 people’s opinions. 900 people love the new feature. 100 people do not, those 100 people are game designers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s essentially what you said with the 100 people who were engineers and know about building construction.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All 1000 of us (i’m sure there are a few exceptions), are just fans playing the game, not game developers. It seems like 900 people like sprint (and are likely younger/new generation players) & 100 people don’t like sprint (which are likely older generation, don’t change the winning formula players.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok. Let’s change that from engineers by trade to “people who seem to atleast want to talk about the structural integrity of the building instead of just talking about how cool the paint colour is”. Better?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with this sprint debate is that one side is looking deeper at the mechanic while the other is only looking at the very most surface layer. If someone can actually explain to 343 how sprint affects each area of the game and why those effects are good, than that’s awesome. However 10,000 people saying “I like sprint because it looks cool” doesn’t mean anything. These types of people clearly have no idea how sprint affects the other aspects of the game. Due to this sprint could actually be a huge detrimental game mechanic to those same people. They just don’t see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason sprint debates look like “veterans/good players vs new/bad players” is simply because those vets/good players are the players who understand the game. They see how every aspect of the game’s design affects the other aspects. That knowledge is generally what makes good players good. This knowledge also reveals the flaws of sprint. Newer players don’t see these flaws because all they see is the surface layer of sprint. What it literally is as a mechanic. They don’t see the subtle influences it has on other mechanics. This is why if you look through this thread you’ll see a lot of posts along the lines of “what’s the problem you just press a button and go fast. Don’t like it, don’t press the button”.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I still have yet to see a competent argument for pro sprint, and many of the non competent arguments change sides after having evreything explained to them. If 343 put an evolved settings btb/arena playlist in for a week I bet it would be the most populated playlist as long as it’s in the game.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > maybe because you haven’t looked?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been on this thread since around page ten where I first posted to now, I’ve missed maby ten pages between them and now and the best I’ve seen is immersion,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Look harder. There are plenty of good posts on the potential benefits of sprint… wish I had them bookmarked. But “potential” is a key word.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 343 hasnt used the mechanic to its fullest. And cant seem to generate maps that complement the ability. Rather they compensate. I think there is more to why h4 and h5 are not top quality halo games, and it has less to do with sprint (Which manages fine in a number of games across the fps and 3rdPS genre) and more to with 343.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please kindly guide me to one then, saying their out there isn’t a very good argument.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Huge change?
> >
> >
> >
> > Small maps are just gone. you don’t see them anymore. Or if they’re around they feel very different.
> > Beaver Creek? Never again. Lockout? Nah, bigger is better. Turf? They must have cleared out the scarab and moved people back in, cuz I’m not seeing it.
> >
> > Part of the problem is online play- you don’t need small maps for the local 2v2 anymore. As well, better connections and hardware mean we can have larger games (which are awesome yeah), but without small maps its all starts to feel like a 4v4 big team battle.
> >
> > Sprint doesn’t help this. As designed, sprint would make a simple small map like Wizard or Warlock feel very cramped. You would need to redesign how sprint works (and then it wouldn’t be the familiar sprint we see across the genre) or have maps more complicated- sorta the way Ivory tower stacks a lot of space in its verticality Sprint isn’t a big deal there compared to something else where paths are straighter. Complicated isn’t bad… but I say not being able to do simple is a detriment.
> >
> > With something like truth… I don’t think this was stretched for sprint. Rather I think they reimagined it as a larger map. I bet they could have taken midship and worked it into something smaller. But then it would have likely been very different and less recognizable as related to midship.
>
>
> Holy excuses lol.
>
> 343 have flat out stated (article on gamasutra) that they have to make larger, more stretched out maps because of sprint. Sprint alone.
I’ve seen it. They say a lot, doesnt mean its absolute fact or the only thing involved in the design choices- choices that started with Reach (and a bit in halo 3). Chicken vs egg and all. Its highly likely they would have ended up with larger maps because that is the direction things are going. Larger maps need sprint, as goes one line of reasoning, so sprint is in. Now maps need to work with sprint, that easily done by increased size, so big maps remain.
I think… they should keep sprint and get rid of the new sandbox and replace it with the old one. Only then will this improve the community, because it will
-
allow for a classic game playlist for those who HATE sprint.
-
will allow for much more skillful gameplay instead of half of this -Yoink- being based off of luck. Hell, Halo 5’s Sniper Rifle is the EASIEST one to use out of all of the games.
-
It will discourage people using sprint during normal gameplay.
For those who DON’T know what a sandbox is… it’s the range in which your shots register. In other words, the hitbox/distance your shots become red when they move across a target.
In previous halo games… you would have to be MUCH MUCH closer to an opponent to shoot them with a shotgun and be still be effective with it. If the game went back to how HALO 3’s shots register… Halo 6 would be perfect. Don’t remove sprint. LIMIT sprint and get rid of Spartan Charge or make it have a window! Handicap the hell out of sprint to a point that it’ll discourage its usage. Getting rid of it is NOT the answer.
i’ve played all halo games but mainly started at halo 3. Sprint is a great thing especially in campaign!! because if my warthog blows up at least i’m not stuck walking the entire thing (this was a pet peeve)! Sprint is just how the game has evolved, it has now made it faster and in my experience with H5 better. not being able to regenerate your health when sprinting was the perfect fix because it is no longer ‘running away from a fight’ and changed it is ‘running into a fight’.
a possible solution that i see is there should be a game type (just like BRs or MLG) that says ‘classic halo’ with no sprint, no clammer, no boost etc. This would allow those people who are affraid of change to still be able to play halo ‘the way it’s supposed to be played’ (not my point of view but wtv). Granted this will lead to problems with maps because maps are created with spring/boost/clammering in mind but it’s an idea.
Thoughts?
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> > > > > > Let’s be real if they remove sprint in H6 and it does the same sales as H5G or less or bombs you guys will still just blame REACH, H4, & H5G while saying those ruined Halo so no one is coming back ever.
> > > > > > On the unlikely off chance sprintless H6 does better than the recent Halos it will be likely we all have been transported to another world in which there’s only one console with only one FPS game on the entire planet.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Because the halos with sprint have done so well right?
> > > > > we have no had three games with sprint and the best one of the three in both sales and player population/player retention wise has been halo reach regardless of what 343 will tell you
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo with sprint has had its chance and (for a number of different reasons including sprint) has failed
> > > > > It’s time for halo to evolve again and the most logical evolution is to remove sprint and return to a more classic movement system
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Blaming sprint for Halo’s decline in popularity is as narrow sighted as blaming the KISS disco album for the death of disco music and I for one don’t want see classic disco Halo try at a comeback (unless it’s a prequel before REACH/HCE with some sort of ODST small side project vibe to it so everyone knows it’s just an off shoot one time thing).
> > >
> > >
> > > Wasn’t Reach supposed to be “an off-shoot one time thing”?
> >
> >
> > Cameo of MC + campaign, mp, firefight & invasion is enough to put it at full fledged Halo.
>
>
> ODST didn’t have a Chief Cameo, but it had a campaign and introduced Firefight. Would you call it a full-fledged Halo? Why or why not?
>
> Why wasn’t Reach simply called Halo 4?
Halo 3 ODST was really an expansion to Halo 3, hence why there’s a 3 in the name. Halo Reach is a prequel to the main series Halo 1-3. It was indeed a full-fledged Halo with all the features included. Campaign, multiplayer, firefight, and the revamped forge mode with the achievement of forge world. It has everything all the past main line Halo games had plus more. It was jam packed with content. An aspect that 343i can’t deliver on from the beginning. It was also the first Halo to have sprint in it.