The sprint discussion thread

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> > > It just feels more like a Spartan to me. As someone who’s really into the lore, I just like it better that way.
> >
> >
> > I hope you’re not suggesting that there is a causal relation between these two things. I’m heavily into Halo’s lore, I have all the novels, all the comics, all the movies, etc. In fact I was “the lore guy” for a 5000+ user Halo forum in germany for about 10 years or so, answering user questions and keeping the timeline up to date. Ever since sprint was introduced into the games, I feel less like a Spartan than ever before, seeing as they are well-documented to be able to shoot while running in pretty much any story across any medium the franchise has ever expanded into. The original trilogy follows this premise. The Reclaimer saga doesn’t…
>
>
> Nope, all I meant is that there are parts of the books talking about how Spartan run really fast, especially Kelly, being the fastest Spartan 2. I get that in the previous games without sprint they’re still running fast, but sprint itself just feels like i’m moving faster.
>
> I didn’t mean to imply anything about shooting while going fast (as I didn’t mention shooting at all), I just meant Sprint make it feel like I’m moving faster then usual, relatively speaking.

So increase base movement speed. There, problem solved. You’re still going fast, but without all the ripple effects that sprint has.

> 2533274855279867;7474:
> I get the distinct feeling a lot of hardcore halo fans are looking to explain why the franchise they so love isnt as popular as before. The answer is undoubtedly more complicated than Sprint or Golden Triangle, but those are the easiest to point to.

Claiming it were the sole reason is dumb.
Disregarding it as a cause altogether is equally dumb.
If this were an actual science experiment, one would change the initial parameter to see how it effects the data.
Transferred, this would mean releasing a Halo game without sprint to see if sales and population increase or decrease.
Which is basically all that people have been asking for in the first place.

> 2535420587443866;7481:
> Its also simply the change in companies bungie mad many games 343 has actually only made 2 so give some slack

lol
Alright, first of all, your numbers are off. CEA, Halo 4, Spartan Assault, MCC, Spartan Strike and H5G make six games.
Secondly, just because the company only exists for a few years doesn’t mean that its employees are freshmen to game development. Playtonic Games has been founded two years ago, yet almost all members are ex-Rare-employees.
In the case of 343 Industries for example, Josh Holmes and Dan Ayoub - the people responsible for H5G and the MCC respectively - used to run Propaganda Games. You know, the development studio that made the mediocre Turok and Tron reboots and was shut down shortly thereafter.
Third, there is never any reason to be content with sub-par products. I honestly don’t care how experienced any of the developers are; I will hold them to the same standard that I hold the entire franchise to. If they cannot meet this standard, then they should give the franchise to somebody who can.

> 2533274801176260;7524:
> > 2535420587443866;7481:
> > Its also simply the change in companies bungie mad many games 343 has actually only made 2 so give some slack
>
>
> lol
> Alright, first of all, your numbers are off. CEA, Halo 4, Spartan Assault, MCC, Spartan Strike and H5G make six games.
> Secondly, just because the company only exists for a few years doesn’t mean that its employees are freshmen to game development. Playtonic Games has been founded two years ago, yet almost all members are ex-Rare-employees.
> In the case of 343 Industries for example, Josh Holmes and Dan Ayoub - the people responsible for H5G and the MCC respectively - used to run Propaganda Games. You know, the development studio that made the mediocre Turok and Tron reboots and was shut down shortly thereafter.
> Third, there is never any reason to be content with sub-par products. I honestly don’t care how experienced any of the developers are; I will hold them to the same standard that I hold the entire franchise to. If they cannot meet this standard, then they should give the franchise to somebody who can.

Well spoken sir

> 2533274801176260;7524:
> > 2535420587443866;7481:
> > Its also simply the change in companies bungie mad many games 343 has actually only made 2 so give some slack
>
>
> lol
> Alright, first of all, your numbers are off. CEA, Halo 4, Spartan Assault, MCC, Spartan Strike and H5G make six games.
> Secondly, just because the company only exists for a few years doesn’t mean that its employees are freshmen to game development. Playtonic Games has been founded two years ago, yet almost all members are ex-Rare-employees.
> In the case of 343 Industries for example, Josh Holmes and Dan Ayoub - the people responsible for H5G and the MCC respectively - used to run Propaganda Games. You know, the development studio that made the mediocre Turok and Tron reboots and was shut down shortly thereafter.
> Third, there is never any reason to be content with sub-par products. I honestly don’t care how experienced any of the developers are; I will hold them to the same standard that I hold the entire franchise to. If they cannot meet this standard, then they should give the franchise to somebody who can.

Well I wouldn’t count MCC as a game per see, as it’s a collection and most of it was outsourced. Still though, 5 or 6, close to each other.

Don’t forget Quin Del Hoya, GoW: Judgement multiplayer lead, if I’m not mistaken.

> 2535436700374144;7510:
> WHY CANT WE VOTE FOR MAP ANYMORE!? 343 please change that if u can and add team BRs i think thatd make alot of people happy .

Team BR’s please!

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> > > > > > > > > > > > They made the Warzone maps stretched out so you would have to use sprint. Not having sprint would basically make Warzone a broken gamemode since the maps were built for it. You nostalgic Halo fans need to suck it up.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > …
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > They could just not stretch the maps. Then you know, they wouldn’t be plagued by people sitting a mile away with rifles and snipers picking you off as you try to cross the mile of no man’s land between every part of the map.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you want smaller maps play Arena. Problem solved.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But arena has sprint…
> > > > > > > > > So take it out, no bad maps, skillful gameplay, everybody wins!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You don’t HAVE to sprint. Just because you don’t want sprint doesn’t mean everybody else doesn’t want it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know I don’t have to sprint. I don’t want my enemies sprinting, because it effects me. Oh, and the vocal majority doesn’t want sprint.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vocal majority? You mean the majority of those voicing an opinion?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t think that means much at all, unless you can show that this opinion is actually representative of the whole.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Neither side can show what the major “likes” and either way it doesn’t matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > “If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said “a faster horse””.
> > > > > -Henry Ford
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > yeah, people are dumb. Which is why this is such a funny conversation.
> > > >
> > > > I get the distinct feeling a lot of hardcore halo fans are looking to explain why the franchise they so love isnt as popular as before. The answer is undoubtedly more complicated than Sprint or Golden Triangle, but those are the easiest to point to.
> > >
> > >
> > > Poor map design, yo. That is the single most glaring problem with Halo: Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5.
> >
> >
> > “Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.”
> > ― Euripides, The Bacchae
> > Map design is not the problem. if you don’t like a map… MAKE ONE! all the games you said have great maps by themselves but also have Forge! Halo used to have great story and a competitive multiplayer and used to be at the front of innovation
>
>
> This entire thread exists because the core Halo fanbase shouldn’t have to make maps and game variants in order to play classic Halo in a Halo title.
>
> Like I said, map design is the most glaring problem with Halo multiplayer these days. This poor map design began when the first real changes to core gameplay were made. I mean, I could be biased, but doesn’t there seem to be some kind of correlation there? When I’m talking about map design, I mean weapon placement, vertical movement, and general flow. Armor Abilities changed that flow, because they changed how maps were designed. Larger maps means needing certain abilities to clear gaps that used to be crossed by knowing how to use jump and crouch in the right succession. I’ll give you that there were some decent maps in some of those titles, but I honestly believe that the classic Halo formula got a lot of things right. I miss jump tactics, and most of the modern maps aren’t set up very well for vertical movement.
>
> Call me a fool, call me nostalgic, but the simple gameplay and well thought-out map design of classic Halo was what made it great. When I play Halo 5, I don’t feel like I’m playing Halo.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5
(If someone could lazy link this that’d be awesome…I have 9 more posts before I can post links)
I posted this a couple pages back - These are all maps Pre-Halo 5. I don’t see any of the halo 5 launch maps making the top 10.

> 2533274812312374;7527:
> > 2535436700374144;7510:
> > WHY CANT WE VOTE FOR MAP ANYMORE!? 343 please change that if u can and add team BRs i think thatd make alot of people happy .
>
>
> Team BR’s please!

Yea and like what happend to swat with a side arm now most if them time it’s dmr or a brb ring back old swat

> 2533274802441922;7528:
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5
> (If someone could lazy link this that’d be awesome…I have 9 more posts before I can post links)
> I posted this a couple pages back - These are all maps Pre-Halo 5. I don’t see any of the halo 5 launch maps making the top 10.

Lazy Link..
.
EDIT: Just so you know, the reason why there are no H5G maps in that article is because the list was created at the end of 2014, roughly one year prior to H5G release…

The new sprinting system needs to stay in Halo because times have changed and gaming is not what it use to be, if other shooter games didnt implement the sprinting system in the past then Halo would of stayed the same because Halo would of had no other movement mechanics to compete against, but because times have changed most games have evolved from their original state, Halo had to take that change in order to be a relevant game, and please dont Say"iv played Halo since Halo CE and that was a great game without sprinting" i would say true but that’s because times where different back then for games. Halo needs to keep its modern element or its going to be regarded as a old shooter with nothing new to it except its story and graphics. Halo has taken this change for the better because i feel like iv had the most fun with Halo 5 compared to other Halo games.

> 2533274880931322;7531:
> The new sprinting system needs to stay in Halo because times have changed and gaming is not what it use to be, if other shooter games didnt implement the sprinting system in the past then Halo would of stayed the same because Halo would of had no other movement mechanics to compete against, but because times have changed most games have evolved from their original state, Halo had to take that change in order to be a relevant game, and please dont Say"iv played Halo since Halo CE and that was a great game without sprinting" i would say true but that’s because times where different back then for games. Halo needs to keep its modern element or its going to be regarded as a old shooter with nothing new to it except its story and graphics. Halo has taken this change for the better because i feel like iv had the most fun with Halo 5 compared to other Halo games.

Then why are newer shooters now coming out with no sprint?

Also, some shooters (Here’s a CSGO example - http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-patch-notes-nerf-tec-9/) have reverted changes in the newer game because they realized that the older game’s mechanics worked better, were more fun, and had better impact in the competitive scene.

Keeping the same game year after year (looking at you EAsports titles) can work. Making improvements, or evolution, in gameplay can also happen. But when the game begins to not “feel” like it’s original intent, then it’s time to evaluate if the evolution of the game is healthy. You can do that by asking these three questions

  1. What has changed?
    2. How do these changes have secondary effects to other aspects of the game? <strong>3. Can we accomplish our overall goals without Insert change from question 1 here?</strong>In the case of sprint, sprint has secondary effects on almost all aspects of gameplay. At it’s core, a shooter is really defined by it’s movement, and it’s TTK. These two points seem to be the root for all shooters.

So,
IF sprint changes so many aspects of game play that the feel of halo isn’t true to it’s roots. Then the question becomes can we accomplish the overall goal of having faster more dynamic pacing/movement WITHOUT having sprint?

I believe that yes, you can have more dynamic pacing and movement without sprint. By setting a standard movement speed, you can design maps more easily to fit this sandbox. Having sprint adds another variable to the map design sandbox that ends up being the most important variable.

A map designer can’t assume everyone will sprint whenever possible. But at the same time, the map designer MUST take into account the possibility of someone sprinting all the time. Designing a map that allows sprinters to dominate practically forces everyone to sprint in order to play the map the way that yields the best results. By having movement speed standard, the designer can correctly assume the intent of the player from a movement perspective because…well…its standard. The designer can also assume that if a person chooses to not move at the standard movement speed, then the player must being doing so for a tactical advantage.

You can use the above arguments for Pro-sprint as well. But my counter to this would be - What is the standardize speed that the designer should use to design his/her map? A map might be designed with sprint in mind, or a designer may make something that they intend for sprint to be used sparingly. But a core concept of good game design is that the original intent may not be what the player does. The designer must make a sandbox that is easy to balance when the player doesn’t do what was intended.

Edit forgot to answer my own question

> 2533274801176260;7530:
> > 2533274802441922;7528:
> > http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5
> > (If someone could lazy link this that’d be awesome…I have 9 more posts before I can post links)
> > I posted this a couple pages back - These are all maps Pre-Halo 5. I don’t see any of the halo 5 launch maps making the top 10.
>
>
> Lazy Link…
> .
> EDIT: Just so you know, the reason why there are no H5G maps in that article is because the list was created at the end of 2014, roughly one year prior to H5G release…

Good call - I had intended my sentence “These are all maps pre-halo5” to read “These are all maps prior to halo 5’s release. I don’t see any halo 5 maps breaking into the top 10”

It sounded right in my head when I hit submit and didn’t proof read - thanks for catching this though

> 2533274802441922;7532:
> > 2533274880931322;7531:
> > The new sprinting system needs to stay in Halo because times have changed and gaming is not what it use to be, if other shooter games didnt implement the sprinting system in the past then Halo would of stayed the same because Halo would of had no other movement mechanics to compete against, but because times have changed most games have evolved from their original state, Halo had to take that change in order to be a relevant game, and please dont Say"iv played Halo since Halo CE and that was a great game without sprinting" i would say true but that’s because times where different back then for games. Halo needs to keep its modern element or its going to be regarded as a old shooter with nothing new to it except its story and graphics. Halo has taken this change for the better because i feel like iv had the most fun with Halo 5 compared to other Halo games.
>
>
> Then why are newer shooters now coming out with no sprint?
>
> Also, some shooters (Here’s a CSGO example - http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-patch-notes-nerf-tec-9/) have reverted changes in the newer game because they realized that the older game’s mechanics worked better, were more fun, and had better impact in the competitive scene.
>
> Keeping the same game year after year (looking at you EAsports titles) can work. Making improvements, or evolution, in gameplay can also happen. But when the game begins to not “feel” like it’s original intent, then it’s time to evaluate if the evolution of the game is healthy. You can do that by asking these three questions
> 1. What has changed?
> 2. How do these changes have secondary effects to other aspects of the game? <strong>3. Can we accomplish our overall goals without Insert change from question 1 here?</strong>In the case of sprint, sprint has secondary effects on almost all aspects of gameplay. At it’s core, a shooter is really defined by it’s movement, and it’s TTK. These two points seem to be the root for all shooters.
>
> So,
> IF sprint changes so many aspects of game play that the feel of halo isn’t true to it’s roots. Then the question becomes can we accomplish the overall goal of having faster more dynamic pacing/movement WITHOUT having sprint?
>
> I believe that yes, you can have more dynamic pacing and movement without sprint. By setting a standard movement speed, you can design maps more easily to fit this sandbox. Having sprint adds another variable to the map design sandbox that ends up being the most important variable.
>
> A map designer can’t assume everyone will sprint whenever possible. But at the same time, the map designer MUST take into account the possibility of someone sprinting all the time. *Designing a map that allows sprinters to dominate practically forces everyone to sprint in order to play the map the way that yields the best results.*By having movement speed standard, the designer can correctly assume the intent of the player from a movement perspective because…well…its standard. The designer can also assume that if a person chooses to not move at the standard movement speed, then the player must being doing so for a tactical advantage.
>
> You can use the above arguments for Pro-sprint as well. But my counter to this would be - What is the standardize speed that the designer should use to design his/her map? A map might be designed with sprint in mind, or a designer may make something that they intend for sprint to be used sparingly. But a core concept of good game design is that the original intent may not be what the player does. The designer must make a sandbox that is easy to balance when the player doesn’t do what was intended.
>
> Edit forgot to answer my own question

Great post

I think what a lot of people don’t understand is that most people who do not like sprint are not against the goals 343 is trying to accomplish with sprint.

-Faster feeling gameplay
-A more immersive “spartan supersoldier” experience

Those are good goals. Sprint just honestly accomplishes these goals in the worst possible way. There are so many other ways that these goals could be accomplished.

-A fast base movement speed
-A wide FOV
-Keep the terminal velocity mechanic(once you move forward for X amount of seconds you get the “speed cues” like the wind rushing by and the screen slightly shaking) that H5 already has so that slide can stay
-Keep thrust, clamber and ground pound

> 2535426262519166;7535:
> I think what a lot of people don’t understand is that most people who do not like sprint are not against the goals 343 is trying to accomplish with sprint.
>
> -Faster feeling gameplay
> -A more immersive “spartan supersoldier” experience
>
> Those are good goals. Sprint just honestly accomplishes these goals in the worst possible way. There are so many other ways that these goals could be accomplished.
>
> -A fast base movement speed
> -A wide FOV
> -Keep the terminal velocity mechanic(once you move forward for X amount of seconds you get the “speed cues” like the wind rushing by and the screen slightly shaking) that H5 already has so that slide can stay
> -Keep thrust, clamber and ground pound

This is a good middle ground, I personally don’t mind sprint in its current iteration.

You guys are doing a good job keeping this thread alive. Make sure there are going to be frequent fresh replies against sprint till H6 releases :slight_smile:

PS: Sprint sucks >:-)

> 2533274880931322;7531:
> The new sprinting system needs to stay in Halo because times have changed and gaming is not what it use to be, if other shooter games didnt implement the sprinting system in the past then Halo would of stayed the same because Halo would of had no other movement mechanics to compete against, but because times have changed most games have evolved from their original state, Halo had to take that change in order to be a relevant game, and please dont Say"iv played Halo since Halo CE and that was a great game without sprinting" i would say true but that’s because times where different back then for games. Halo needs to keep its modern element or its going to be regarded as a old shooter with nothing new to it except its story and graphics. Halo has taken this change for the better because i feel like iv had the most fun with Halo 5 compared to other Halo games.

What??
So halo had to make itself generic and take away everything that made halo unique relevant? clearly halo was doing fine beforehand. In fact l, looking at sales and population numbers halo is pretty much irrelevant.

> 2533274950766071;7537:
> You guys are doing a good job keeping this thread alive. Make sure there are going to be frequent fresh replies against sprint till H6 releases :slight_smile:
>
> PS: Sprint****sucks >:-)

Thanks man.
After battling the toxic and countering all the stupid arguments I need someone to acknowledge our hard work

Just found out team brs isnt in the game. Wtf

> 2535444134435024;7539:
> > 2533274950766071;7537:
> > You guys are doing a good job keeping this thread alive. Make sure there are going to be frequent fresh replies against sprint till H6 releases :slight_smile:
> >
> > PS: Sprint****sucks >:-)
>
>
> Thanks man.
> After battling the toxic and countering all the stupid arguments I need someone to acknowledge our hard work

If there’s anyone who greatly appreciates your fight against Sprint, it’s me. Always hoping it will let the future of Halo bear fruits :slight_smile: