The sprint discussion thread

[Justima]

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> > > My biggest question is how is this still a thread/topic? We all have different opinions about things and 343 will most likely keep in sprint, no matter what you guys do. We don’t always get what we want
> >
> >
> > We know 343 will not, so this thread is here to express our opinion and feeling about cuerent Halo. This thead is here to affect 343’s decision. My biggest question is why there are still people demanding sprint in Halo for no reason?
>
>
> This is why you’ll get so much resistance. You can’t just throw around the assumption that people defend it for no reason, even just liking something is enough to warrant the need to keep it. An explanation goes further in helping the reason but in the end simply liking something will do. Who’s to say anti-sprinters hate it “for no reason”? It can work both ways dude. Both sides have had Legite arguments, the unfortunate thing is both like to think their arguements are that much better and then they say the other side has no arguement, that’s where credibility is lost as you’re then not taking consideration into others. It’s the same thing I said to a guy (in this thread) to not be so asanine and blow away those who dislike sprint calling them stuck in the past, you also can’t just say pro-sprint has no arguement. It gets you no where and just gives people more of a reason to get away from this debate. Why would I argue with someone who’s just going to then say I have no arguement if I put up a 5000 word text explaining my perspective? Those are the guys you need to listen to, not the one line responses if it bothers you that much. There have been decent arguements for both in this thread, don’t let your bias for no sprint block out those who do have actual arguements for sprint.

We tried to debate and talk about sprint with pro-sprinters and all we got is “we like sprint” and “Halo needs to evovle”. If that is the case, we could say we hate sprint and that is it. When we did that, pro-sprinters called us hater, Bungie fanboy, nostalgia boy, ect. We cited why we think sprint is bad for Halo, yet the reply was “I like sprint”. Why can’t we have deep conversation about the topic and be civil? Instead just telling us you like sprint, tell use why you like it and why you think it is good for Halo.

[Vrruumm]

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> > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > >
> > >
> > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> >
> >
> > And I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
>
>
> Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.

But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.

[spartan_x169x]

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> > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > >
> > >
> > > A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategicaAnd I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> >
> >
> > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
>
>
> But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.

again, dude, all of that still provides one with an advantage and another without. depending on the situation. Using your scenarios , I’ll show you, -

• “A game without sprint makes moving more skill based”- This obviously provides an advantage to the higher skilled player.
• “It promotes map control” - This gives a huge advantage to those that know the map better and to those who have teams they regularly play with.
• “it does slow down the engagements”. This can go either way, but typically helps the “Thinking” player. Again, an advantage
• “but this is countered by decreasing map size” Not everybody is good on small maps. So this gives again an advantage to players who are better at close engagements.
  this specifically relates to me as I’m a much better player at range than I am close engagements so its a big disadvantage for me.
  -“A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically”. This again benefits the higher skilled player and
  hurts the lessor player.

Basically all of your points widen the skill gap. they all help the typical hardcore highly skilled player and punish the lessor skilled player. Again advantages vs disadvantages.
Now if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread. But As I have shown it still comes back to who wants an advantage based on their strengths.

[Celestis]

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> > > > 2533274801176260;6497:
> > > > > 2533274830700227;6496:
> > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > >
> > >
> > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> >
> >
> > And I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> >
> > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
>
>
> Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.

Well if you’re of the opinion that a superior player should not reap the fruits of his efforts, then we have a problem. What’s the point in having powerups on map at all? Powerups that are contested and fought over?
And I’m not arguing that sprint isn’t an advantage. Obviously, being able to escape at the press of a button is advantagous. What I’m arguing is inbalance by treating movement and gunplay unequally.

[ShadowAngel9228]

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> > 2533274923562209;6493:
> > > 2535456165221911;6492:
> > > > 2535415111658532;6486:
> > > > My biggest question is how is this still a thread/topic? We all have different opinions about things and 343 will most likely keep in sprint, no matter what you guys do. We don’t always get what we want
> > >
> > >
> > > We know 343 will not, so this thread is here to express our opinion and feeling about cuerent Halo. This thead is here to affect 343’s decision. My biggest question is why there are still people demanding sprint in Halo for no reason?
> >
> >
> > This is why you’ll get so much resistance. You can’t just throw around the assumption that people defend it for no reason, even just liking something is enough to warrant the need to keep it. An explanation goes further in helping the reason but in the end simply liking something will do. Who’s to say anti-sprinters hate it “for no reason”? It can work both ways dude. Both sides have had Legite arguments, the unfortunate thing is both like to think their arguements are that much better and then they say the other side has no arguement, that’s where credibility is lost as you’re then not taking consideration into others. It’s the same thing I said to a guy (in this thread) to not be so asanine and blow away those who dislike sprint calling them stuck in the past, you also can’t just say pro-sprint has no arguement. It gets you no where and just gives people more of a reason to get away from this debate. Why would I argue with someone who’s just going to then say I have no arguement if I put up a 5000 word text explaining my perspective? Those are the guys you need to listen to, not the one line responses if it bothers you that much. There have been decent arguements for both in this thread, don’t let your bias for no sprint block out those who do have actual arguements for sprint.
>
>
> We tried to debate and talk about sprint with pro-sprinters and all we got is “we like sprint” and “Halo needs to evovle”. If that is the case, we could say we hate sprint and that is it. When we did that, pro-sprinters called us hater, Bungie fanboy, nostalgia boy, ect. We cited why we think sprint is bad for Halo, yet the reply was “I like sprint”. Why can’t we have deep conversation about the topic and be civil? Instead just telling us you like sprint, tell use why you like it and why you think it is good for Halo.

Both sides are guilty of your typical one liners tho. It’s not just pro sprint that says B.S. Ignore the ones trying to get the better of you and debate with the ones that are trying.

@ everyone in general: Two wrongs don’t make a right and being a jack -Yoink- when advocating for change just hurts you more than helps. I see people who put in walls of texts get blown off like nothing just cuz of a disagreement when they put in the time and reply to others yet they then don’t get the same privilege. The ones who do put in “I like it” don’t need to back it up, I like bananas but don’t need to say why, I just do. I hate coffe, I don’t know why, I just don’t. Liking something and disliking something is enough, it’s all the devs should need to warrant a change so long as there’s decent support for it. Explanations are only needed to those looking for more expanded information on a topic while seeing the other sides perspective, and not everyone in a forum is willing to do that so you either accept the one liner, or move on untill someone else offers one. Did we ever see 343 ask “why” people don’t like sprint? No, they just polled them yes or no and that was that. It’s common for most devs, another example is Bioware polling people on what dragon age needed, they never asked why they wanted it, they just ask what they wanted.

in short tho, both sides are guilty, ignore the ones who don’t add anything to what you’re looking for, but don’t ignore the ones who do put in the time and respond only to then be told there is no logical arguement for/vs something and that they’re wrong. It’s much better to just say you disagree rather than be an -Yoink- and say they’re wrong on an opinionated matter.

example: sprint elongates maps, fact, but it is an opinion if it’s bad depending on how it’s done. One can dislike it being elongated for reasons while the other can like it being elongated for reasons. You can say someone’s wrong if they say it’s not elongated even tho it is, but you can’t say they’re wrong in liking the elongated map regardless of how much you may dislike it because that is a preference.

[Benti86]

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> > > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategicaAnd I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
> >
> >
> > But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.
>
>
> again, dude, all of that still provides one with an advantage and another without. depending on the situation. Using your scenarios , I’ll show you, -
> - “A game without sprint makes moving more skill based”- This obviously provides an advantage to the higher skilled player.
> - “It promotes map control” - This gives a huge advantage to those that know the map better and to those who have teams they regularly play with.
> - “it does slow down the engagements”. This can go either way, but typically helps the “Thinking” player. Again, an advantage
> - “but this is countered by decreasing map size” Not everybody is good on small maps. So this gives again an advantage to players who are better at close engagements.
> this specifically relates to me as I’m a much better player at range than I am close engagements so its a big disadvantage for me.
> -“A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically”. This again benefits the higher skilled player and
> hurts the lessor player.
>
> Basically all of your points widen the skill gap. they all help the typical hardcore highly skilled player and punish the lessor skilled player. Again advantages vs disadvantages.
> Now if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread. But As I have shown it still comes back to who wants an advantage based on their strengths.

Eh that isn’t really how I feel and I’d appreciate it if you rather didn’t speak for me. See it isn’t because I’d have an advantage because of that thinking, which is debatable because any semi-serious player will learn what to do after some experience which is only an initial advantage of being familiar with the game, but I digress. I preferred that style of play because that is how Halo was originally designed and I like it when games are faithful to what made them popular and, most importantly, different. I loved Titanfall to death because it wasn’t just another sprint around and shoot FPS. I could outmaneuver and outaim others and then use a Titan well. It was large open maps but sniping wasn’t brain dead and super easy. Halo 3 had all the aspects you described making skilled and more patient players better yet millions of people played and enjoyed the game because at the same time it was simple to learn yet difficult to master, easy to pick up and play with a friend or family member, and had great matchmaking.

I don’t know what happened to matchmaking systems in the past 9-10 years but they’ve somehow become way way worse. Same with the playerbase. Everyone’s a toxic -Yoink- anymore.

[Ruined_Empire]

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> > > > > > > 2533274830700227;6496:
> > > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategicaAnd I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
> >
> >
> > But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.
>
>
> again, dude, all of that still provides one with an advantage and another without. depending on the situation. Using your scenarios , I’ll show you, -
> - “A game without sprint makes moving more skill based”- This obviously provides an advantage to the higher skilled player.
> - “It promotes map control” - This gives a huge advantage to those that know the map better and to those who have teams they regularly play with.
> - “it does slow down the engagements”. This can go either way, but typically helps the “Thinking” player. Again, an advantage
> - “but this is countered by decreasing map size” Not everybody is good on small maps. So this gives again an advantage to players who are better at close engagements.
> this specifically relates to me as I’m a much better player at range than I am close engagements so its a big disadvantage for me.
> -“A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically”. This again benefits the higher skilled player and
> hurts the lessor player.
>
> Basically all of your points widen the skill gap. they all help the typical hardcore highly skilled player and punish the lessor skilled player. Again advantages vs disadvantages.
> Now if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread. But As I have shown it still comes back to who wants an advantage based on their strengths.

I like your post. I would definitely agree that the skill gap would widen…which I think this game needs.

(Bold Point) I am not very good at this game, I think that a wider skill gap would provide people who are hardcore with teammates that are that hardcore or good at the game. It would also provide me and people like me with equally skilled players. Wider skill gap/higher skill ceiling are always good for games and the best games have these two characteristics. Non shooters like Hearthstone/starcraft show this. The speed running community also shows this. A game that I can use as an example of having a wide skill gap but low skill ceiling would be Halo Wars. I love that game, but at the top tier, Matches pretty much play out the same. There is little room to grow.

(Italic point) I’ve used this map as an example many times, but headlong/guillotine is a great example of map design with/without sprint. Headlong is a large map, there are specific paths that you can/can’t take based on jump distance and travel time. It’s a map that plays well 4v4, but shines in BTB. Guillotine,however, may look big, but it plays like a small map. You can get from one end of the map to the other very quickly. Even in open areas, it’s easy to get to cover. On the H2 map, you needed to have map control to run across the middle. In H5 - you can sprint from the light rifle spawn window to the base with little danger…regardless of map control.
On objective game types, this map just doesn’t hold it’s own against the original. (this part is obviously an opinion, but the differences in the way they play are not).

Again - these maps look almost the same and, without sprint/thursters, play the same. But with Sprint, they do not.
A poster above mentioned Sanctuary from H2 being remade in Reach (or H4…I can’t remember). Same thing. These are the examples that I use to show why sprint is bad for halo.

Frequent respond to this lately is - “But that’s your opinion, how can you say that the difference is bad?”
My response to this is - Rate your top 5 maps from any halo. I don’t think I can find any map that isn’t in halo 1-3. I actually found this link to see if I could jog my memory -
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5 - These are maps ranked 1-10 of maps ranked for Master Chief Collection…so no halo 5 maps on this list, but reach is included. You can click “Continue from Page 4” to see ranks 35-11. Halo 4’s first map is ranked 14th, then doesn’t come back in until 25th. In the Top 25, there are 2 maps that aren’t Halo 1-3 (and one of those is a remake of the Halo 3 map)

Take a look at the list - Assuming you’ve played all the halos (If not, I can understand why you’d prefer sprint since that would be what you learned halo from) - Question: **Does anyone disagree with this list?**Edit - Bolden’d the link so it’s easier to see and copy/paste since I can’t do URLs yet

[Celestis]

> 2533274923562209;6506:
> The ones who do put in “I like it” don’t need to back it up, I like bananas but don’t need to say why, I just do. I hate coffe, I don’t know why, I just don’t. Liking something and disliking something is enough, it’s all the devs should need to warrant a change so long as there’s decent support for it. Explanations are only needed to those looking for more expanded information on a topic while seeing the other sides perspective, and not everyone in a forum is willing to do that so you either accept the one liner, or move on untill someone else offers one. Did we ever see 343 ask “why” people don’t like sprint? No, they just polled them yes or no and that was that. It’s common for most devs, another example is Bioware polling people on what dragon age needed, they never asked why they wanted it, they just ask what they wanted.

The why are they on a discussion forum? If they just want to spout out their opinion, fine. Open a blog. Make a youtube channel. A forum is specifically designed to have a two-way-conversation, and the unwillingness to partake is killing its entire purpose.

The reason why people ask the pro-sprinters to be more precise regarding their preferences is so that they can understand the motivation behind it and can come up with a compromise, an alternative that satisfies both parties. There are always reasons for a preference, people might hate the taste of bananas, or their texture. Coffee might be too bitter, or not bitter enough, too strong, too mellow, and so forth.

You’re right that 343 (and supposedly other developers) only ask the “what” in their surveys, and not the “why”… and that’s part of what got us in this mess in the first place. For example, the question in the last community feedback program was “Do you like sprint in Halo?”, with possible answers on a Likert-scale. Well, I distinctly remember a thread from back in the day, where people couldn’t even agree on what sprint is. So how can you expect the developers to get usable data from this questionnaire?

[spartan_x169x]

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> > > > 2533274830700227;6498:
> > > > > 2533274801176260;6497:
> > > > > > 2533274830700227;6496:
> > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > >
> > >
> > > And I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > >
> > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> >
> >
> > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
>
>
> Well if you’re of the opinion that a superior player should not reap the fruits of his efforts, then we have a problem. What’s the point in having powerups on map at all? Powerups that are contested and fought over?
> And I’m not arguing that sprint isn’t an advantage. Obviously, being able to escape at the press of a button is advantagous. What I’m arguing is inbalance by treating movement and gunplay unequally.

I said in the post above the one I’m quoting here that “if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread” I never said a superior player should not reap the rewards of his efforts. Only that these debates come back to who wants an advantage.But based on your quote “Well if you’re of the opinion that a superior player should not reap the fruits of his efforts, then we have a problem”, I assume you are ok with Kill streak rewards that COD does? (the ordinance drops in H4)
This would be a good debate on if its good for the franchise or not(rewarding superior players for their efforts). I don’t have a problem with it per say, only that it really swings battles , sometimes good sometimes bad. I’ve been beaten bad because of it, But I’ve dominated matches because of it too. So its wash for me.
I freely admit I don’t like fighting over power weapons. I won’t go into the reasons, simply because I have come to accept this as part of the game as its always been part of the game, the same as other franchises, such as Gears and Doom. So you won’t hear me whine about it.

[ShadowAngel9228]

> 2533274801176260;6509:
> > 2533274923562209;6506:
> > The ones who do put in “I like it” don’t need to back it up, I like bananas but don’t need to say why, I just do. I hate coffe, I don’t know why, I just don’t. Liking something and disliking something is enough, it’s all the devs should need to warrant a change so long as there’s decent support for it. Explanations are only needed to those looking for more expanded information on a topic while seeing the other sides perspective, and not everyone in a forum is willing to do that so you either accept the one liner, or move on untill someone else offers one. Did we ever see 343 ask “why” people don’t like sprint? No, they just polled them yes or no and that was that. It’s common for most devs, another example is Bioware polling people on what dragon age needed, they never asked why they wanted it, they just ask what they wanted.
>
>
> The why are they on a discussion forum? If they just want to spout out their opinion, fine. Open a blog. Make a youtube channel. A forum is specifically designed to have a two-way-conversation, and the unwillingness to partake is killing its entire purpose.
>
> The reason why people ask the pro-sprinters to be more precise regarding their preferences is so that they can understand the motivation behind it and can come up with a compromise, an alternative that satisfies both parties. There are always reasons for a preference, people might hate the taste of bananas, or their texture. Coffee might be too bitter, or not bitter enough, too strong, too mellow, and so forth.
>
> You’re right that 343 (and supposedly other developers) only ask the “what” in their surveys, and not the “why”… and that’s part of what got us in this mess in the first place. For example, the question in the last community feedback program was “Do you like sprint in Halo?”, with possible answers on a Likert-scale. Well, I distinctly remember a thread from back in the day, where people couldn’t even agree on what sprint is. So how can you expect the developers to get usable data from this questionnaire?

I agree with the first paragraph, but some people will come in simply to troll, irk, and antagonize people. Some also think they’re simply right 100% without listening to reason.

to the second paragrapgh: this is what I mean by ignoring the one liners and only listen to those who explain. It’s generally those who put more detail looking for a more expanded discussion to happen while also seeing the other sides perspective. Not everyone is willing to put up a 5000 word text to explain so they put in down short and sweet. It’s perfectly fine for me to ask for more detail, but I’m not going to expect him to do so unless he’s full of himself.

Third: I’d prefer there to be polls with a comment section to explain in detail why not or why people prefer X and X to give the devs a better understanding, but ultimately they’ll just try their own perspective while possibly doing some social media interaction with the fan base. I’m just simply saying not many actually poll people why and why not buy just a simple yes or no poll.

[spartan_x169x]

> 2533274802441922;6508:
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> > > > > > > 2533274801176260;6497:
> > > > > > > > 2533274830700227;6496:
> > > > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategicaAnd I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > > > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
> > >
> > >
> > > But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.
> >
> >
> > again, dude, all of that still provides one with an advantage and another without. depending on the situation. Using your scenarios , I’ll show you, -
> > - “A game without sprint makes moving more skill based”- This obviously provides an advantage to the higher skilled player.
> > - “It promotes map control” - This gives a huge advantage to those that know the map better and to those who have teams they regularly play with.
> > - “it does slow down the engagements”. This can go either way, but typically helps the “Thinking” player. Again, an advantage
> > - “but this is countered by decreasing map size” Not everybody is good on small maps. So this gives again an advantage to players who are better at close engagements.
> > this specifically relates to me as I’m a much better player at range than I am close engagements so its a big disadvantage for me.
> > -“A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically”. This again benefits the higher skilled player and
> > hurts the lessor player.
> >
> > Basically all of your points widen the skill gap. they all help the typical hardcore highly skilled player and punish the lessor skilled player. Again advantages vs disadvantages.
> > Now if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread. But As I have shown it still comes back to who wants an advantage based on their strengths.
>
>
> I like your post. I would definitely agree that the skill gap would widen…which I think this game needs.
>
> (Bold Point) I am not very good at this game, I think that a wider skill gap would provide people who are hardcore with teammates that are that hardcore or good at the game. It would also provide me and people like me with equally skilled players. Wider skill gap/higher skill ceiling are always good for games and the best games have these two characteristics. Non shooters like Hearthstone/starcraft show this. The speed running community also shows this. A game that I can use as an example of having a wide skill gap but low skill ceiling would be Halo Wars. I love that game, but at the top tier, Matches pretty much play out the same. There is little room to grow.
>
> (Italic point) I’ve used this map as an example many times, but headlong/guillotine is a great example of map design with/without sprint. Headlong is a large map, there are specific paths that you can/can’t take based on jump distance and travel time. It’s a map that plays well 4v4, but shines in BTB. Guillotine,however, may look big, but it plays like a small map. You can get from one end of the map to the other very quickly. Even in open areas, it’s easy to get to cover. On the H2 map, you needed to have map control to run across the middle. In H5 - you can sprint from the light rifle spawn window to the base with little danger…regardless of map control.
> On objective game types, this map just doesn’t hold it’s own against the original. (this part is obviously an opinion, but the differences in the way they play are not).
>
> Again - these maps look almost the same and, without sprint/thursters, play the same. But with Sprint, they do not.
> A poster above mentioned Sanctuary from H2 being remade in Reach (or H4…I can’t remember). Same thing. These are the examples that I use to show why sprint is bad for halo.
>
> Frequent respond to this lately is - “But that’s your opinion, how can you say that the difference is bad?”
> My response to this is - Rate your top 5 maps from any halo. I don’t think I can find any map that isn’t in halo 1-3. I actually found this link to see if I could jog my memory -
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5 - These are maps ranked 1-10 of maps ranked for Master Chief Collection…so no halo 5 maps on this list, but reach is included. You can click “Continue from Page 4” to see ranks 35-11. Halo 4’s first map is ranked 14th, then doesn’t come back in until 25th. In the Top 25, there are 2 maps that aren’t Halo 1-3 (and one of those is a remake of the Halo 3 map)
>
> Take a look at the list - Assuming you’ve played all the halos (If not, I can understand why you’d prefer sprint since that would be what you learned halo from) - Question: **Does anyone disagree with this list?**Edit - Bolden’d the link so it’s easier to see and copy/paste since I can’t do URLs yet

Very well made post. I did not initially play H1 thru H3 , but have played them a lot on MCC in spite of its issues. I love most maps from H1 all the way thru and including H4 and H5. The only map I really don’t like is Lockdown(H2 and H3, I think H4 has a forge version). I despise that map. It allows for very little movement which is a big disadvantage for me personally. Favorite map of all time for me? H4-Exile. Love that map. But I will also admit I love it because its fits my play style perfectly . Same for Valhalla.

[Celestis]

> 2533274825101441;6510:
> I said in the post above the one I’m quoting here that “if you want to debate if a wide skill gap vs a low skill gap is good or bad for Halo franchise , that’s a fair separate debate to have in another thread” I never said a superior player should not reap the rewards of his efforts. Only that these debates come back to who wants an advantage.But based on your quote “Well if you’re of the opinion that a superior player should not reap the fruits of his efforts, then we have a problem”, I assume you are ok with Kill streak rewards that COD does? (the ordinance drops in H4)
> This would be a good debate on if its good for the franchise or not(rewarding superior players for their efforts). I don’t have a problem with it per say, only that it really swings battles , sometimes good sometimes bad. I’ve been beaten bad because of it, But I’ve dominated matches because of it too. So its wash for me.
> I freely admit I don’t like fighting over power weapons. I won’t go into the reasons, simply because I have come to accept this as part of the game as its always been part of the game, the same as other franchises, such as Gears and Doom. So you won’t hear me whine about it.

I just hope that this doesn’t go too much off topic.

To be entirely honest, I didn’t mind ordnance drops as a mechanic of rewarding players. I disliked the randomness of it, and it was pretty glitchy (with drops landing on top of the geometry, unaccessible to the player, thereby essentially wasted), but not the intention behind it per se. A lot of players complained that this causes snowballing, with superior players getting too far ahead, with no chance of catching up once they’ve hoarded enough rocket launchers, etc. But in my opinion this could be countered with a stong utility weapon, and if not, then the match at least is over pretty quick (unless they start farming for kills or something). As for CoD, I think the last one I played was MW2, and just a couple of matches as I didn’t like it, so I can’t give any informed opinion on it.

But either way, people didn’t approve of it because it never was part of Halo’s meta and changed the game too much, so it was cut, and I certainly don’t mourn it. But when people use similar arguments against sprint, then suddenly all hell breaks loose.

[Ruined_Empire]

> 2533274825101441;6512:
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> > > > > > > > 2533274801176260;6497:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274830700227;6496:
> > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone who does a lot of running away, and had unlimited sprinting equipped in Halo 4, I like being able to flee confrontations. In past Halo games if someone shot you it was like locking eyes with another pokemon trainer. You were gonna have to duke it out until the end. Strategic cowardice is just that, strategic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You could always back out of a gunfight in Halo, it just required… well, strategey. Careful positioning close to cover, forcing the enemy to back off with a well-placed grenade, and so forth. There’s nothing strategic about “push button to go fast”.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Strategy or not, if I see someone with a rocket launcher coming in my direction, I am getting the heck out of there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategicaAnd I would probably do the very same thing. __But the game should not encourage or enable you to do s__o. Like it or not, the other guy earned his rocket launcher by capturing it from the enemy team, and as a result should be rewarded for it by having the advantage. The ability to turn tail and run at the push of a button robs him of using said advantage, and I’d be willing to bet that you’re just as pissed if and when you’re in the same situation.
> > > > > > (I’m talking about “normal” versus here, not the “pay to win” mode that is warzone.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just to be clear, That is strictly your opinion. Lots of people obviously see different. The fact remains, For some sprint is an advantage, whatever that advantage(aggressive confrontation or retreat), while for others is a disadvantage. Hence the big divide. That is what this thread is really about, who wants an advantage. For some the advantage is no sprint, for others, sprint is an advantage.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But isn’t just for advantages. There difference is how the game is played. A game without sprint makes moving more skill based. It promotes map control, however it does slow down the engagements, but this is countered by decreasing map size. Also engagements become more meaningful. A player can’t just sprint at another player with a sword, but would have to work their way toward the enemy strategically.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > - “but this is countered by decreasing map size” Not everybody is good on small maps. So this gives again an advantage to players who are better at
> > >
> > > Basically all of your points widen the skill gap. they all help the typical hardcore highly skilled player and punish the lessor skilled player. Again advantages vs disadvantages.
> >
> >
> > I like your post. I would definitely agree that the skill gap would widen…which I think this game needs.
> >
> > (Bold Point) I am not very good at this game, I think that a wider skill gap would provide people who are hardcore with teammates that are that hardcore or good at the game. It would also provide me and people like me with equally skilled players. Wider skill gap/higher skill ceiling are always good for games and the best games have these two characteristics. Non shooters like Hearthstone/starcraft show this. The speed running community also shows this. A game that I can use as an example of having a wide skill gap but low skill ceiling would be Halo Wars. I love that game, but at the top tier, Matches pretty much play out the same. There is little room to grow.
> >
> > (Italic point) I’ve used this map as an example many times, but headlong/guillotine is a great example of map design with/without sprint. Headlong is a large map, there are specific paths that you can/can’t take based on jump distance and travel time. It’s a map that plays well 4v4, but shines in BTB. Guillotine,however, may look big, but it plays like a small map. You can get from one end of the map to the other very quickly. Even in open areas, it’s easy to get to cover. On the H2 map, you needed to have map control to run across the middle. In H5 - you can sprint from the light rifle spawn window to the base with little danger…regardless of map control.
> > On objective game types, this map just doesn’t hold it’s own against the original. (this part is obviously an opinion, but the differences in the way they play are not).
> >
> > Again - these maps look almost the same and, without sprint/thursters, play the same. But with Sprint, they do not.
> > A poster above mentioned Sanctuary from H2 being remade in Reach (or H4…I can’t remember). Same thing. These are the examples that I use to show why sprint is bad for halo.
> >
> > Frequent respond to this lately is - “But that’s your opinion, how can you say that the difference is bad?”
> > My response to this is - Rate your top 5 maps from any halo. I don’t think I can find any map that isn’t in halo 1-3. I actually found this link to see if I could jog my memory -
> > http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/03/ranking-every-halo-map-ever-made-110-86?page=5 - These are maps ranked 1-10 of maps ranked for Master Chief Collection…so no halo 5 maps on this list, but reach is included. You can click “Continue from Page 4” to see ranks 35-11. Halo 4’s first map is ranked 14th, then doesn’t come back in until 25th. In the Top 25, there are 2 maps that aren’t Halo 1-3 (and one of those is a remake of the Halo 3 map)
> >
> > Take a look at the list - Assuming you’ve played all the halos (If not, I can understand why you’d prefer sprint since that would be what you learned halo from) - Question: **Does anyone disagree with this list?**Edit - Bolden’d the link so it’s easier to see and copy/paste since I can’t do URLs yet
>
>
> Very well made post. I did not initially play H1 thru H3 , but have played them a lot on MCC in spite of its issues. I love most maps from H1 all the way thru and including H4 and H5. The only map I really don’t like is Lockdown(H2 and H3, I think H4 has a forge version). I despise that map. It allows for very little movement which is a big disadvantage for me personally. Favorite map of all time for me? H4-Exile. Love that map. But I will also admit I love it because its fits my play style perfectly . Same for Valhalla.

I actually didn’t like Lockout all that much either. It was a great slayer map, but I loved the Offense/Defense based objective games and 1 Flag CTF was a rough time. It mostly consisted of Zerging the flag over and over again, hoping your opponent hit your shoulder instead of your head.

I just went through that whole list and it brought back so many memories. It makes me wish more than ever that there can be some kind of “Grand unifying Theory” for Halo that can make pro-sprinters and anti-sprinters come together in Song and Hot Coco…but if it was that easy then World Politics would be fixed and Coco futures would be the best investment of all time

[Obi_Wlan_Kenobi]

The reason we need skill based gameplay is that when the kills take skill, then they are more rewarding. If every time you pressed the A-button on your controller an enemy died, would that be a fun game? Like who gets on CoD these days? Getting a kill in that game is so easy, that who gives a -yoink- that you got it?

[Turretguy]

> 2533274894270677;6478:
> > 2533274842900974;6476:
> > > 2533274795123910;6468:
> > > > 2533274842900974;6465:
> > > > Just wait for Halo 3 Anniversary and then hopefully “Halo will be Halo again” for ya
> > >
> > >
> > > What if someone wants a new Halo without sprint?
> > > Other abilities and mechanics?
> >
> >
> > Fair enough.
> > Well then there could be one easy solve. Once Halo 6 comes out 343 could/should do one thing. Instead of Arena/Warzone/Custom/Forge like in H5, they should do Modern/Old School/Warzone/Custom/Forge.
> > And then Modern is just all the stuff H6 comes with and Old School is all the playlists but with no abilities or load oats like H2 and H3. That could be cool.
> >
> > Or you know, just don’t sprint while you play Halo 5.
> > Or play Halo 3/MCC lol
>
>
> Ugh. I hate it when people say don’t sprint. Likeurdumb. Sprint effects map design. Weapon balance. Blah blah. All this crap. So pls. Think before you speak

Meh, yes and no. Yes it does effect map design and all that BUT you can still play effectively without using it. You’ll gain the shot on those that are sprinting since they have to stop and raise their weapon, you’ll notice things more and take your time walking into areas that normally you’d just sprint into, etc, etc. I see what you’re saying but you’re not 100% correct.

[Bryzles]

In my opinion, ADS should be removed, then it could feel more like Halo. Beyond that, I think that things like the “Shoulder-Charge” (or whatever they call it) and the “Ground-Slam” (once again, I did not bother to check the official names) would also make it feel more like Halo if they were removed. In Halo: Reach, you had access to only one trait, like Sprint or Ground-Slam. That was better in my eyes, than allowing all of them on everybody.

[MR_R1D3R]

> 2535456165221911;6502:
> > 2533274923562209;6493:
> > > 2535456165221911;6492:
> > > > 2535415111658532;6486:
> > > > My biggest question is how is this still a thread/topic? We all have different opinions about things and 343 will most likely keep in sprint, no matter what you guys do. We don’t always get what we want
> > >
> > >
> > > We know 343 will not, so this thread is here to express our opinion and feeling about cuerent Halo. This thead is here to affect 343’s decision. My biggest question is why there are still people demanding sprint in Halo for no reason?
> >
> >
> > This is why you’ll get so much resistance. You can’t just throw around the assumption that people defend it for no reason, even just liking something is enough to warrant the need to keep it. An explanation goes further in helping the reason but in the end simply liking something will do. Who’s to say anti-sprinters hate it “for no reason”? It can work both ways dude. Both sides have had Legite arguments, the unfortunate thing is both like to think their arguements are that much better and then they say the other side has no arguement, that’s where credibility is lost as you’re then not taking consideration into others. It’s the same thing I said to a guy (in this thread) to not be so asanine and blow away those who dislike sprint calling them stuck in the past, you also can’t just say pro-sprint has no arguement. It gets you no where and just gives people more of a reason to get away from this debate. Why would I argue with someone who’s just going to then say I have no arguement if I put up a 5000 word text explaining my perspective? Those are the guys you need to listen to, not the one line responses if it bothers you that much. There have been decent arguements for both in this thread, don’t let your bias for no sprint block out those who do have actual arguements for sprint.
>
>
> We tried to debate and talk about sprint with pro-sprinters and all we got is “we like sprint” and “Halo needs to evovle”. If that is the case, we could say we hate sprint and that is it. When we did that, pro-sprinters called us hater, Bungie fanboy, nostalgia boy, ect. We cited why we think sprint is bad for Halo, yet the reply was “I like sprint”. Why can’t we have deep conversation about the topic and be civil? Instead just telling us you like sprint, tell use why you like it and why you think it is good for Halo.

deep conversation about something you don’t have the power to change is really not that interesting. All that will do is piss you off more!!!. People should not worry about -Yoink- they cant change. Express your opinion is good but -Yoink- at what point do you realize your wasting your time. And this energy you spend on focusing on the sprint issue can maybe be used somewhere else, another issue, where you can actually make a difference. What was the game developers reason to add sprint? shouldn’t that be more than enough of an explanation? If you really want change to happen this community needs to work together and not against each other.

[Nofunnyideas]

I am neither pro sprint or anti sprint.

I enjoyed the old formula form halo 1-3. And I enjoy the new formula.

It seems to me many of the anti sprinters are looking for arguments about why sprint fits compared to the old formula. IMO it doesn’t. Halo is a much different game now.

Halo 5 is so far off from combat evolved, it’s 15 years later, iMO it should be. I’ve said it probably about 30 times on these threads. Halo 5 is exactly what halo should look like 15 years after and 5 major titles following its first release.

I love this new dynamic gameplay. It took 343 a couple tries to get it right. Halo 4 didn’t work for me. Certain weapons (boltshot), ordinance, and loadouts just didn’t work for me and killed the map control and equal starts I was used to. So I can certainly understand why more dynamic gameplay including sprint and Spartan abilities. But iMO everything that I think makes halo special is in halo 5. I can sympathize but I cannot share your opinion.

I don’t want to lose the flow, the gameplay that is halo 5. It may have elements put together from many other games before it just like the previous halos but there is no game that plays like it. The total package is very well put together aside from Spartan charge. Which is iMO the only game breaking mechanic in halo 5.

I think this is where the pushback is coming from. Many of us don’t want to lose this gameplay. It’s the only game like it.

Imo I would be more than ok to lose sprint if the base movement speed is increased to keep the flow the same. I would not be cool with doing away with Spartan abilities, especially the thruster. I want to keep the dynamic gameplay I want at least one more game like halo 5. Halo 4 is no more like halo 5 than it was the original 3.

[Vrruumm]

> 2535473635314008;6519:
> It seems to me many of the anti sprinters are looking for arguments about why sprint fits compared to the old formula. IMO it doesn’t. Halo is a much different game now.

Yes Halo is much different now. Maps don’t have vehicles on them any more. (Talking about 4v4 playlists)

[Naqser]

> 2533274864863166;6518:
> > 2535456165221911;6502:
> > > 2533274923562209;6493:
> > > > 2535456165221911;6492:
> > > > > 2535415111658532;6486:
> > > > > My biggest question is how is this still a thread/topic? We all have different opinions about things and 343 will most likely keep in sprint, no matter what you guys do. We don’t always get what we want
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We know 343 will not, so this thread is here to express our opinion and feeling about cuerent Halo. This thead is here to affect 343’s decision. My biggest question is why there are still people demanding sprint in Halo for no reason?
>
>
> deep conversation about something you don’t have the power to change is really not that interesting. All that will do is piss you off more!!!. People should not worry about -Yoink- they cant change. Express your opinion is good but -Yoink- at what point do you realize your wasting your time. And this energy you spend on focusing on the sprint issue can maybe be used somewhere else, another issue, where you can actually make a difference. What was the game developers reason to add sprint? shouldn’t that be more than enough of an explanation? If you really want change to happen this community needs to work together and not against each other.

Well…

-Armor Abilities
-Bloom
-Dual Wielding
-Weapon Balances
-Firefight
-Grenade Indicators
-Flinch
-Custom Loadouts
-Global and Personal Random Ordnance

You can’t tell anyone that their effort won’t make a difference.
There is no difference to be made about an issue if you do put effort into it. No input, no output.

This is sprint’s second iteration as a default ability, and the shield recharge-reset is most likely one part Effort from anti-sprinters.