The sprint discussion thread

> 2533274819302824;6118:
> > 2533274839169051;6108:
> > Do you prefer Mario Kart or Forza?
> > Now use your most important opinion to pick which is one is Halo and which one isn’t.
> > OK, now let’s argue till the end of freaking time about it…
>
>
> One has very abstract and unique design.
> The other pursues realism to the point of being far less interesting to actually play in comparison.
> Problem most modern games I see suffer from…
>
> Classic Halo is Mario Kart.
> CoD is Forza.
> Modern Halo is like if you took Mario Kart, removed all the tracks that are similar to Rainbow Road, and turned all the powerups into guns.

So the people that prefer playing Forza to Mario Kart are what exactly? Wrong?

> 2533274848599184;6122:
> > 2533274819302824;6118:
> > > 2533274839169051;6108:
> > > Do you prefer Mario Kart or Forza?
> > > Now use your most important opinion to pick which is one is Halo and which one isn’t.
> > > OK, now let’s argue till the end of freaking time about it…
> >
> >
> > One has very abstract and unique design.
> > The other pursues realism to the point of being far less interesting to actually play in comparison.
> > Problem most modern games I see suffer from…
> >
> > Classic Halo is Mario Kart.
> > CoD is Forza.
> > Modern Halo is like if you took Mario Kart, removed all the tracks that are similar to Rainbow Road, and turned all the powerups into guns.
>
>
> So the people that prefer playing Forza to Mario Kart are what exactly? Wrong?

Not necessarily wrong, but they like a watered down version of a game that doesn’t do what it copies from its competitors better and loses most of that population and angers the original fan base and alienates them, losing them to. At least that’s what I’m gathering from this.

> 2533274813551244;5777:
> > 2533274814192150;5767:
> > I think the market would reject a game without sprint. With the direction the FPS genre/market has evolved (Call of Duty with wall running, thruster boost jumps, thruster power slides, etc.) and even most 3rd person shooters have sprint (Ghost Recon, GTA V, etc.) We as players have done this to Halo because we have supported a market of “sprinting” titles. Now there is no undoing what has been done. It’s simple economics. Adam Smith always spoke about the market being “laize faire” and we are now reaping the benefits. Most titles have sprint/dynamic movement and as long as we keep buying them they will continue to be made.
>
>
> You’re absolutely right, I’m extremely glad Halo followed the trend and added sprint in Reach and they continued to add sprint ever since. Halo as a game has flourished with this new life changing mechanic and the game sales have gone through the roof. What would have we done if CoD never introduced this amazing ability in out lives? The horror…
>
> Market rejecting something just because other games have it? No, actually it’s buying the same thing over and over that gets people tired. Every game in the market is starting to play the same. If I’d like to play a good game with sprint, I’d buy CoD. One day when they remove Halos shield system and lower the TTK to 0,4s, that’ll be the day sprint works with Halo. But can you call it halo at that point?
>
> Edit. We never supported this. We wanted sprint and abilites gone from Reach. Just because CoD players buy a sprinting game, we get sprint added to a game where is doesn’t work in any sort of way.

You supported it by buying it. If you felt so passionately against Halo with sprint why are Halo: Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5 on your shelf next to your Xbox? Follow the money it doesn’t lie. You can’t say you do not support something and then give it money, that’s nonsense.

Edit: Call of Duty was not the first game to introduce sprint, Doom had it in 1993

I really hope they drop sprint for the next halo game. Halo 5 feels clunky now that i’ve been playing some of the newer games that have no sprint. In Overwatch and Doom you flow. It’s like cruising down the highway. In H5 you jerk, Constant starting and stopping. It’s like being stuck in gridlock traffic.

It’s awkward to have to drop to a slower speed in order to shoot in a game like Halo because you do it so much and for extended periods of time. It’s not a stop and pop shooter.

> 2533274949193447;6050:
> > 2533275027884262;6030:
> > We Need more medals is what we need, exterminations, headcase, yoink, and more…please 343i the only one we are truely care about is the extermination
>
>
> yes!
> medals when we swap weapons
> Jump up
> fire a gun
> turn around
> crouch
> walk backwards
> LET’S HAVE THOSE MEDALS!

No I’m talking about how everyone wants extermination medals

> 2535441849067315;6125:
> I really hope they drop sprint for the next halo game. Halo 5 feels clunky now that i’ve been playing some of the newer games that have no sprint. In Overwatch and Doom you flow. It’s like cruising down the highway. In H5 you jerk, Constant starting and stopping. It’s like being stuck in gridlock traffic.
>
> It’s awkward to have to drop to a slower speed in order to shoot in a game like Halo because you do it so much and for extended periods of time. It’s not a stop and pop shooter.

There have been a couple of times where I wanted to sprint playing Overwatch… but then when I tried playing as Soldier 76 I found myself rarely sprinting. Weird right?

I haven’t played Doom proper, just the demo, but I found myself wanting an “unsprint” button occasionally. The original Doom had sprint in that you could toggle it on or off. In the demo I wanted to slow down in some areas and just look around.

> 2533274855279867;6127:
> > 2535441849067315;6125:
> > I really hope they drop sprint for the next halo game. Halo 5 feels clunky now that i’ve been playing some of the newer games that have no sprint. In Overwatch and Doom you flow. It’s like cruising down the highway. In H5 you jerk, Constant starting and stopping. It’s like being stuck in gridlock traffic.
> >
> > It’s awkward to have to drop to a slower speed in order to shoot in a game like Halo because you do it so much and for extended periods of time. It’s not a stop and pop shooter.
>
>
> There have been a couple of times where I wanted to sprint playing Overwatch… but then when I tried playing as Soldier 76 I found myself rarely sprinting. Weird right?
>
> I haven’t played Doom proper, just the demo, but I found myself wanting an “unsprint” button occasionally. The original Doom had sprint in that you could toggle it on or off. In the demo I wanted to slow down in some areas and just look around.

You can just toggle down on the LS.

Ramir3z77, mate, I was expecting a half-decent response from you and to show me the logic you said you used. Don’t leave me hanging. I’m not trying to insult you if that’s the impression I gave.

> 2535426262519166;6117:
> > 2533274800887027;6116:
> > Sprint really isnt a problem for Halo. It’s great for the game as it adds a lot more layers with mobility and strategy around changing pace for both aggressive and defensive play.
>
>
> Sprint literally changes the very core of Halo. It changes the game from something that blends movement and combat to a game that separates movement from combat.

I disagree. I feel it adds to movement and combat rather than just letting the game sit as a flat 1 pace game. It is such a key part of adding a whole other layer to the combat and strategy by changing the pacing of the fight.

I dont feel that the core of Halo is based around having or not having sprint at all. I feel the core of Halo is having every player on an equal footing from the start and making sure they always have a well balanced fight throughout. If theres one element of Halo that detracts from that then it isnt sprint, its just with reqs in warzone as that philosophy of giving players access to stronger tools the better they do is saying “Oh hey look at you smashing the other team into the ground, lets give you something to smash them even harder even though you clearly dont need the help.”

So in Arena at least, I feel that the core of Halo is very much there and stronger and more up to date than it has been for a long time.

> 2533274855279867;6127:
> > 2535441849067315;6125:
> > I really hope they drop sprint for the next halo game. Halo 5 feels clunky now that i’ve been playing some of the newer games that have no sprint. In Overwatch and Doom you flow. It’s like cruising down the highway. In H5 you jerk, Constant starting and stopping. It’s like being stuck in gridlock traffic.
> >
> > It’s awkward to have to drop to a slower speed in order to shoot in a game like Halo because you do it so much and for extended periods of time. It’s not a stop and pop shooter.
>
>
> There have been a couple of times where I wanted to sprint playing Overwatch… but then when I tried playing as Soldier 76 I found myself rarely sprinting. Weird right?

Not really weird. Overwatch is based on varying character abilities and playstyles. I actually think Hamster Creeek really cant use Overwatch as an example against Halo using sprint as it is a completely different type of shooter and there are a lot of different abilities which help you get around the map quickly. Boosting about as a big robot is effectively the same as using sprint. Its still bringing that same change of pace to the fight in the same way, its sprint but just animated differently.

> 2535440173738041;6107:
> > 2533274797967716;6075:
> > > 2533274820921394;6074:
> > >
> >
> >
> > Halo 3 has the same base player speed as Halo CE and Halo 2, the reason it feels slow is because of the low field of view and lower player acceleration. Also Reach has a lower base player speed than CE-3.
>
>
> What exactly was the point of saying that? He pretty much just said why he liked sprint. Which isn’t " invalid", so I can only assume you pretty much just wanted to put him down.

I don’t see how what I said was to “put them down”, I was just informing them that Halo 1-3 have the same BPS and that Reach has a lower BPS, and why Halo 3 feels slow.

> 2533274895603860;6070:
> And you know, no matter how many people misuse it or call it a buzzword, it doesn’t change the definition of “evolve”, so I’m also not sure where you’re going with that.

I have nothing else to comment on, except for this point here.

Evolve, as a word, has a definition. The word itself is misused and makes no sense in the context people typically use it in. People may as well be saying -Yoink- like “game mechanics need to be gelatinous”. We all know what the word gelatinous means outside of that context, but what the -Yoink- does it mean in the context of that statement? The entire statement is vague and confusing.

“Games need to Evolve”.

Well, how does the dictionary define evolve (I ask how the dictionary defines it because it’s the closest thing to objectivity we can achieve here)?

I’ll allow you to use any dictionary you want, but Websters defines it as such:

-to change or develop slowly often into a better, more complex, or more advanced state : to develop by a process of evolution

I think we can all agree games should become better and more advanced. I think we’d disagree on what makes games better, or why it has to be a slow process. Regardless, by basically saying “games need to become better” you’re not actually saying anything that possesses any significant meaning, you’re just stating the obvious. But people will follow you anyways because you’re stating the obvious in a way that sounds fancy. I.e., a buzzword; a word used to impress idiots that has no significant meaning behind it.
. Or perhaps more accurately, a buzz phrase..
.
What about “more complex”? Games becoming more complex is typically viewed as a bad thing. You generally want to achieve as much depth as possible from as little complexity as possible. You don’t want to confuse your audience through unnecessary complications.

“But that’s not what I meant when I used the word evolve”

Okay, so how am I supposed to know what subjective definition you’re using in the context of your statement if you don’t actually elaborate on that statement?

Are people still complaining about Sprint?? Lol, sprint is great and it isn’t going to be removed.

> 2533274800887027;6131:
> > 2533274855279867;6127:
> >
>
>
> Not really weird. Overwatch is based on varying character abilities and playstyles. I actually think Hamster Creeek really cant use Overwatch as an example against Halo using sprint as it is a completely different type of shooter and there are a lot of different abilities which help you get around the map quickly. Boosting about as a big robot is effectively the same as using sprint. Its still bringing that same change of pace to the fight in the same way, its sprint but just animated differently.

Following this logic people can’t use other games as an example in favor of sprint being in Halo, because they are also entirely different games. Unless you want to imply Halo has more in common with CoD and it’s ilk than it has in common with Overwatch, another game based on mobility and a sci-fi sandbox.

> 2533274855279867;6127:
> > 2535441849067315;6125:
> >
>
>
> There have been a couple of times where I wanted to sprint playing Overwatch… but then when I tried playing as Soldier 76 I found myself rarely sprinting. Weird right?
> I haven’t played Doom proper, just the demo, but I found myself wanting an “unsprint” button occasionally. The original Doom had sprint in that you could toggle it on or off. In the demo I wanted to slow down in some areas and just look around.

Mmmmm.

> 2533274903586320;6134:
> Are people still complaining about Sprint?? Lol, sprint is great and it isn’t going to be removed.

There’s more evidence to suggest it will be removed sooner rather than later. You must not be familiar with the history of this franchise or where shooters today seem to be going.

> 2533274819302824;6133:
> > 2533274895603860;6070:
> > And you know, no matter how many people misuse it or call it a buzzword, it doesn’t change the definition of “evolve”, so I’m also not sure where you’re going with that.
>
>
> I have nothing else to comment on, except for this point here.
>
> Evolve, as a word, has a definition. The word itself is misused and makes no sense in the context people typically use it in. People may as well be saying -Yoink- like “game mechanics need to be gelatinous”. We all know what the word gelatinous means outside of that context, but what the -Yoink- does it mean in the context of that statement? The entire statement is vague and confusing.
>
> “Games need to Evolve”.
>
> Well, how does the dictionary define evolve (I ask how the dictionary defines it because it’s the closest thing to objectivity we can achieve here)?
>
> I’ll allow you to use any dictionary you want, but Websters defines it as such:
>
> -to change or develop slowly often into a better, more complex, or more advanced state : to develop by a process of evolution
>
> I think we can all agree games should become better and more advanced. I think we’d disagree on what makes games better, or why it has to be a slow process. Regardless, by basically saying “games need to become better” you’re not actually saying anything that possesses any significant meaning, you’re just stating the obvious. But people will follow you anyways because you’re stating the obvious in a way that sounds fancy. I.e., a buzzword; a word used to impress idiots that has no significant meaning behind it.
> . Or perhaps more accurately, a buzz phrase..
> .
> What about “more complex”? Games becoming more complex is typically viewed as a bad thing. You generally want to achieve as much depth as possible from as little complexity as possible. You don’t want to confuse your audience through unnecessary complications.
>
> “But that’s not what I meant when I used the word evolve”
>
> Okay, so how am I supposed to know what subjective definition you’re using in the context of your statement if you don’t actually elaborate on that statement?

Well then, took you long enough. I’ll try to break this down from both a marketing standpoint (what a games needs to do to become more popular and make the most money), and a personal standpoint (what a game needs to do so you’ll enjoy it more). The latter is particularly subjective, so I’ll be fair in that regard.

Like you said, evolve is a series of gradual changes, usually but not always (different definitions have slightly different versions of “usually” or “always”) from something simple to a more complex state. Let’s look at the first three Halo games. Throughout the trilogy they got inarguably more complex (Halo 2 added dual-wielding and more weapons; Halo 3 added even more weapons and equipment), and yet the sales kept going on. Therefore, we can deduce that it’s possible for a series to “evolve” into games of greater complexity and still be very popular and accepting among its fans. This is the good kind of “evolve”, the type Bungie themselves would say it’s necessary. Now let’s look at the more subjective side of things.

I know CE is your favourite Halo game, it’s also the simplest in terms of gameplay, but pays off with more depth than most shooters I know. There’s an evident correlation with depth and complexity: the former is dependant on the latter, that’s to say, without complexity there wouldn’t be depth. Let me explain: complexity is the amount of different variable present within the medium, depth is how many choices you can do on the most practical level with as few variables as possible. If you have no complexity (i.e. no variables to work with), you can’t have depth. About the correlation part:

Depth is finite, but that’s okay since it’s logically impossible for something to be infinite. So if you have a super deep game, you wish to make an even deeper sequel but are unable to with the base variables, you need to add more of them, or add more complexity, to achieve further depth. For example: game X has 10 variable, each with 5 options, and you want to make a sequel (call it game Y) with even more depth. This time game Y has 20 variables, and because of that, you can overlap them and create even more options, such as 10 options for each variable instead of game X’s 5 option limit. So game Y is deeper than game X because it’s more complex.

So when I say a game series needs to “evolve”, I’m not trying to use buzzwords to sound smart or anything, I’m actually referring to depth, more so than anything else. Do people misuse the word and not explain themselves properly? Fine. That’s not my problem, and you shouldn’t use it as an excuse for folks who have legitimate reasons as to why a game needs to evolve.

It’s actually kind of ironic: the Halo franchise to properly evolve is exactly what you want (for them to improve upon themselves and get better), but because your favourite Halo game is the least complex, you’ve led yourself to believe that complexity isn’t all that important, when in fact it’s fuel for depth. Not that I’m complaining, nor am I really criticizing you, I’m just using a fair bit of informal logic to show why saying “a game series needs to evolve” makes perfect sense, at least in my eyes.

> 2533274814192150;6124:
> > 2533274813551244;5777:
> > > 2533274814192150;5767:
> > > I think the market would reject a game without sprint. With the direction the FPS genre/market has evolved (Call of Duty with wall running, thruster boost jumps, thruster power slides, etc.) and even most 3rd person shooters have sprint (Ghost Recon, GTA V, etc.) We as players have done this to Halo because we have supported a market of “sprinting” titles. Now there is no undoing what has been done. It’s simple economics. Adam Smith always spoke about the market being “laize faire” and we are now reaping the benefits. Most titles have sprint/dynamic movement and as long as we keep buying them they will continue to be made.
> >
> >
> > You’re absolutely right, I’m extremely glad Halo followed the trend and added sprint in Reach and they continued to add sprint ever since. Halo as a game has flourished with this new life changing mechanic and the game sales have gone through the roof. What would have we done if CoD never introduced this amazing ability in out lives? The horror…
> >
> > Market rejecting something just because other games have it? No, actually it’s buying the same thing over and over that gets people tired. Every game in the market is starting to play the same. If I’d like to play a good game with sprint, I’d buy CoD. One day when they remove Halos shield system and lower the TTK to 0,4s, that’ll be the day sprint works with Halo. But can you call it halo at that point?
> >
> > Edit. We never supported this. We wanted sprint and abilites gone from Reach. Just because CoD players buy a sprinting game, we get sprint added to a game where is doesn’t work in any sort of way.
>
>
> You supported it by buying it. If you felt so passionately against Halo with sprint why are Halo: Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5 on your shelf next to your Xbox? Follow the money it doesn’t lie. You can’t say you do not support something and then give it money, that’s nonsense.
>
> Edit: Call of Duty was not the first game to introduce sprint, Doom had it in 1993

I’m not like some of you, just bashing Halo 2/3 and say there would never work now when you guys didn’t even play them when they were the top selling games on market. I bought ALL halo games and played a lot of matches to be able to give my honest opinion on things that work and things that don’t.

Halo Reach had bloom that brought randomness, AAs like armor lock that broke the pacing and jetpack that broke map flow. And those horrible gray forge maps…
I had no idea Halo 4 would have sprint and no ranking system which made it a total noob fest.
Halo 5s marketing with back to the roots and ‘we are going to bring back that old experience’.

You’re forgetting the importance of recommendation. I’m the guy who got four of my friends to buy an Xbox 360 with Halo 3 and told all of the same guys to stay away from Halo 4 and 5. I bite the bullet so my friends don’t have to. That right there is not supporting a game.

> 2535441849067315;6128:
> > 2533274855279867;6127:
> > > 2535441849067315;6125:
> > > I really hope they drop sprint for the next halo game. Halo 5 feels clunky now that i’ve been playing some of the newer games that have no sprint. In Overwatch and Doom you flow. It’s like cruising down the highway. In H5 you jerk, Constant starting and stopping. It’s like being stuck in gridlock traffic.
> > >
> > > It’s awkward to have to drop to a slower speed in order to shoot in a game like Halo because you do it so much and for extended periods of time. It’s not a stop and pop shooter.
> >
> >
> > There have been a couple of times where I wanted to sprint playing Overwatch… but then when I tried playing as Soldier 76 I found myself rarely sprinting. Weird right?
> >
> > I haven’t played Doom proper, just the demo, but I found myself wanting an “unsprint” button occasionally. The original Doom had sprint in that you could toggle it on or off. In the demo I wanted to slow down in some areas and just look around.
>
>
> You can just toggle down on the LS.

i knew I should have looked harder…

> 2533274819567236;6102:
> > 2533274949193447;6091:
> > > 2533274819567236;6081:
> > > > 2533274819302824;6080:
> > > > The -Yoink-? What does hardware have to do with gameplay mechanics? You guys seriously don’t believe there were games with clamber around the original xbox era?
> > > >
> > > > Definitely one of the weaker pro-sprint arguments I’ve heard.
> > > >
> > > > The lack of these mechanics back then wasn’t because it would be impossible to implement them. It was because developers either didn’t care about adding them or simply hadn’t thought about doing it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Arguments like his are good way to find out who the young ones are. At least then we can’t really expect them to know too much about the topic at hand.
> >
> >
> > that’s a bit mean…
> > but still true XD
>
>
> I wasn’t trying to be mean, but there have been a number of times I see people talk about issues like these, but they’re young enough (maybe 20 yrs old or below) to not know much about either the earlier days of the franchise or the earlier days of gaming. The thing is, they often get offended when someone says that even though it’s completely normal. We’ve all been there when we were young talking about stuff we didn’t quite understand, we just thought we did.
>
> I mean, he apparently thinks sprint wasn’t possible 15 years ago due to hardware limitations, totally unaware that sprint has been around for longer than that. He even said that as if we don’t know what we’re talking about. Can’t really take people like that seriously until they show that they want to be taken seriously.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

25yrs old btw. Quote me if I’m wrong but I don’t remember saying sprint wasn’t possible back then. My first and favorite game was super metroid. I’ve played all of the Halo games. I initially started with Halo 2 and then went back and played Halo CE just for the experience. I used to LAN party with friends at my place and had a great time. Even so with that being said, I don’t think a paragraph of text tells you enough about ones life for you to pass judgement on it. I think that’s a pretty neutral statement.

But once again, this is far off topic.

I dont see a correlation between depth and complexity. There is a point that complexity must reach in order for depth exist- a good example is tic tac toe. In the spongebob cartoon a character invented a game called tic tac where the first to two in a row on a 2x2 grid wins… The first player always wins. The real Tic tac toe is slightly more complex than tic tac but has more depth… by a lot. Then take tic tac toe, make it 4 in a row and play on a circular gameboard and your depth goes nutty. But this only continues for so long.

The ultimate example is chess. Added complexity isnt going to make the game deeper. There are plenty of extremely complicated board games that do not have the depth of chess but have more pieces, more colors, more rules…

Depth is about giving players viable choices in play. Complexity is a cheap, and not always effective way of creating this, to the point that it hinders the game. Some complexity is required for depth, but more of one is not a recipe for the other.