> 2535466914543129;5880:
> > 2684735135014023;5879:
> > > 2535466914543129;5866:
> > > > 2684735135014023;5862:
> > > > > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > > > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > @TheNightEcho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Halo’s maps aren’t always designed for that. Look at Zanzibar.
> > >
> > >
> > > When will the hypocrisy end?!
> >
> >
> > Hypocrisy? I don’t see how that’s hypocritical. The shotgun in Halo was never a completely overpowered weapon. Not even the CE M90 was OP. (compared to the M6D). Halo 4 introduced the overpowered shotgun.
>
>
> He changed the subject.
> 2533274813551244;5876:
> You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
>
> It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
>
> Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
>
> Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
Well, I’m flattered I’m the one you decided to ask. Perhaps I’ll think up something tomorrow (I’d rather not do it on mobile) if no one else does it and I’ll run it by a few people here to see if it’s up to par.
We’ll also need to make sure OP is still active on the forum because he said a couple weeks ago that he was leaving the thread since it took on a life of its own.
> 2535466914543129;5861:
> > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> >
> >
> > @TheNightEcho
> >
> > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
>
>
> Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
> 2533274808669104;5878:
> > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> >
> > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> >
> > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> >
> > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
>
>
> I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
>
> - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
> 2533274819567236;5885:
> > 2533274808669104;5878:
> > > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> > >
> > > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> > >
> > > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> > >
> > > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
> >
> >
> > I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
> >
> > - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> > - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> > - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> > - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> > - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> > - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> > - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> > Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
>
>
> I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
I fully agree, the whole why aspect of this discussion becomes lost in translation due to the need to formulate extensive discussions around each aspect of the game as it relates to gameplay/mechanics. I think the vidoc is telling from a development POV, and should be viewed by all for a simple example in how game design can work with the core of the game and not alter it too much.
> 2533274970658419;5884:
> > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > >
> > >
> > > @TheNightEcho
> > >
> > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> >
> >
> > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
>
>
> Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
Yes I played the OT and the guy was saying running at a higher bms with a shotgun isn’t op and I used Doom as an example like every anti-sprinter does and and then he talks about an old map. Also our discussion was on the future of Halo not the past.
> 2533274808669104;5886:
> > 2533274819567236;5885:
> > > 2533274808669104;5878:
> > > > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > > > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> > > >
> > > > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> > > >
> > > > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> > > >
> > > > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
> > >
> > > - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> > > - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> > > - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> > > - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> > > - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> > > - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> > > - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> > > Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
> >
> >
> > I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
>
>
> I fully agree, the whole why aspect of this discussion becomes lost in translation due to the need to formulate extensive discussions around each aspect of the game as it relates to gameplay/mechanics. I think the vidoc is telling from a development POV, and should be viewed by all for a simple example in how game design can work with the core of the game and not alter it too much.
It’s possible to make a long, thought out post on the issues and why they matter and put it in the OP, but we run into the unfortunate reality that people that like sprint don’t care to read a massive post explaining why something they like isn’t very beneficial to the game.
In a way, discussing it throughout a thread makes it more likely for them to be informed. For example, if the OP is massive, someone won’t read it and will respond with “Get over it, sprint is fine” and then you respond to them, which can easily lead to a discussion that they actually read since they’re directly involved in it.
<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
> 2533274808669104;5886:
> > 2533274819567236;5885:
> > > 2533274808669104;5878:
> > > > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > > > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> > > >
> > > > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> > > >
> > > > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> > > >
> > > > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
> > >
> > > - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> > > - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> > > - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> > > - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> > > - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> > > - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> > > - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> > > Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
> >
> >
> > I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
>
>
> I fully agree, the whole why aspect of this discussion becomes lost in translation due to the need to formulate extensive discussions around each aspect of the game as it relates to gameplay/mechanics. I think the vidoc is telling from a development POV, and should be viewed by all for a simple example in how game design can work with the core of the game and not alter it too much.
I have an idea! How about all you anti-sprinters can form your own game development studio and call yourselves Studio117 since you’re experts on how to make proper video games, buy the rights to the Halo franchise from MS. But since that will never happen why don’t you stop -Yoinking!- about how the game doesn’t play exactly like H3 and find a different franchise to obsess over.
> 2533274808669104;5886:
> > 2533274819567236;5885:
> > > 2533274808669104;5878:
> > > > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > > > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> > > >
> > > > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> > > >
> > > > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> > > >
> > > > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
> > >
> > >
> > > I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
> > >
> > > - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> > > - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> > > - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> > > - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> > > - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> > > - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> > > - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> > > Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
> >
> >
> > I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
>
>
> I fully agree, the whole why aspect of this discussion becomes lost in translation due to the need to formulate extensive discussions around each aspect of the game as it relates to gameplay/mechanics. I think the vidoc is telling from a development POV, and should be viewed by all for a simple example in how game design can work with the core of the game and not alter it too much.
I have an idea! How about all you anti-sprinters can form your own game development studio and call yourselves Studio117 since you’re experts on how to make proper video games, buy the rights to the Halo franchise from MS. But since that will never happen why don’t you stop -Yoinking!- about how the game doesn’t play exactly like H3 and find a different franchise to obsess over.
> 2535466914543129;5887:
> > 2533274970658419;5884:
> > > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > @TheNightEcho
> > > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> > >
> > >
> > > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
> >
> >
> > Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
>
>
> Yes I played the OT and the guy was saying running at a higher bms with a shotgun isn’t op and I used Doom as an example like every anti-sprinter does and and then he talks about an old map. Also our discussion was on the future of Halo not the past.
Doom’s meta is built around the shotgun essentially. You can’t use Doom as an example for how guns would work with a high BMS, because we don’t want it that fast. Run around with a shotgun in CE-3, then tell me it’s OP.
People use Doom as an example because it shows that games don’t need sprint to be fast. You can look at Unreal Tournament, Overwatch, Battletoads, Reflex, Toxxik, or Halo CE, and realize that those games are a lot faster than H5.
Yes, our discussion is on Halo’s future, except TheNightEcho said that no sprint would be OP with PW, and I said that is a non-issue, because it never happened before in any of the past Halo’s, and nevermind that Doom’s shotgun is the main weapon, atleast in whatever this new Doom is trying to be.
> 2533275035781111;5859:
> > 2533274855279867;5858:
> > > 2533275035781111;5849:
> > > > 2535466914543129;5830:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;5827:
> > > > > > 2535466914543129;5826:
> > > > > > > 2533274819567236;5825:
> > > > > > > > 2535466914543129;5824:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;5823:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535466914543129;5817:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;5811:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535466914543129;5802:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274964143689;5792:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please stop saying that there’s an option to choose whether to sprint or not. Maps are larger to accommodate for sprint thus punishing players not sprinting. Bullet magnetism is increased to accommodate for maps being so large. There can be no unique maps such as Guardian, Shrine or Lockout with sprint and that’s a pretty heavy price to pay for a poor mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint is a bad design choice and doesn’t fit in the Arena Shooter Halo.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing punishing you for sprinting is your self. The maps are not solely designed for sprint and lockout would play really well with the new abilities and guardian is just a lockout reskin. If you just want H3 with new graphics then you can pick it up next fall along with the scorpio.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This entire post is actually wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you think sprint would play fine on Lockout then, at this point in the thread after all this discussion, you’re simply incapable of understanding the basic effects of sprint such as what it does to spawns.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You lack knowledge on the subject and are either incapable or unwilling to gain knowledge of it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Heaven forbid spawns be less predictable in order to give people a chance!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Less predictable? No, they would be easier to manipulate. Even if they were “less predictable”, spawning next to a couple enemies isn’t helping someone. You pretty much just further proved my point about how oblivious you are to anything regarding sprint.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Like most other things in this game, spawns that are more random are not good, particularly for the person respawning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A higher bms would do all the same things to map design and spawns that you are an expert on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, either you have been reading the thread and you’re continuing to prove my point with that post (because, surprise, you’re wrong again) or you haven’t been reading the thread (which would explain your lack of knowledge) and are arguing this particular part of the discussion that has already been explained countless times.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In both cases you are the one in control of whether or not that changes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You keep claiming that sprint stretches the maps and hurts the spawns because you’re going faster but you say that a higher bms should take sprints place but that would do the same thing that you claim sprint does yet I’m somehow wrong?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes. Have you not been reading this thread at all? This has been explained multiple times. So, do you read any of this or do you just decide to post but not read? Honest question, so I - and others - know how to respond to you in the future.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you don’t want to answer my question that’s fine because you’re contradicting yourself. I have been reading this thread and I could care less about your problems with a mechanic since you’re acting like sprint is the end of the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > Scaling maps to two movement speeds Dosn’t work, scaling them to one does.
> >
> >
> > why not?
>
>
> Because when you design a map, you design the length of sections based on a players movement speed, unless you only move at the speed the devs designed that section for, removing your ability to do what you want and play the game. The section will either be too big or too small. When you have one speed, everything is scaled to that speed. Hence the games with sprint not having any specifically amazing maps compared to ce/3 maps like the pit, guardian,waterworks,blood gulch,and sidewinder
All those maps were designed with variable speeds in the game. Movement has always been analog, crouch walking and vehicles all provide multiple speeds to traverse a map.
Sounds like your taking the fact maps have varied between mediocre and crap and attributed it to sprint. It could just be that 343 sucks at map design.
> 2535466914543129;5887:
> > 2533274970658419;5884:
> > > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > @TheNightEcho
> > > >
> > > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> > >
> > >
> > > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
> >
> >
> > Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
>
>
> Yes I played the OT and the guy was saying running at a higher bms with a shotgun isn’t op and I used Doom as an example like every anti-sprinter does and and then he talks about an old map. Also our discussion was on the future of Halo not the past.
Dooms weapons are balanced differently than Halos weapons. Can’t say I’m surprised you’re also unaware of that.
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> > > 2533274970658419;5884:
> > > > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > @TheNightEcho
> > > > >
> > > > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
> > >
> > >
> > > Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
> >
> >
> > Yes I played the OT and the guy was saying running at a higher bms with a shotgun isn’t op and I used Doom as an example like every anti-sprinter does and and then he talks about an old map. Also our discussion was on the future of Halo not the past.
>
>
> Dooms weapons are balanced differently than Halos weapons. Can’t say I’m surprised you’re also unaware of that.
So are CoD’s but everyone keeps saying Halo is just like CoD!
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> > > > 2533274970658419;5884:
> > > > > 2535466914543129;5861:
> > > > > > 2533274970658419;5854:
> > > > > > > On a serious note, one has explained why an increased base movement speed would work, only that maps are scaled correctly, same speed in all directions and you never put your weapon down, but not if or why it would work better. What if it’s worse because people go around with shotguns or railgun killing everyone because they can move faster in all directions? How is that better? Just because everyone else can move in all directions doesn’t mean it’s balanced, because it would be harder to kill people with power weapons because they can back peddle and strafe at a faster pace as well as chance you down without you being able to counter them without another power weapon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > @TheNightEcho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My answer to this is, did any of this happen in any other game without sprint? No. It literally makes no sense, because everyone moves at the same speed, so someone with a shotgun/railgun wouldn’t magically go faster than everyone else.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Have you played doom? Because if you had you would know that running super fast with a shotgun is very effective.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have you played CE through 3? Because if you had you would know that Doom’s speed is faster than those games, and the meta is completely different than halo’s.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes I played the OT and the guy was saying running at a higher bms with a shotgun isn’t op and I used Doom as an example like every anti-sprinter does and and then he talks about an old map. Also our discussion was on the future of Halo not the past.
> >
> >
> > Dooms weapons are balanced differently than Halos weapons. Can’t say I’m surprised you’re also unaware of that.
>
>
> So are CoD’s but everyone keeps saying Halo is just like CoD!
We’re not talking about CoDs weapon balance and we’re not talking about Dooms weapon balance. We’re talking about sprint. The weapon balance of other games is irrelevant.
> 2533274808669104;5878:
> > 2533274813551244;5876:
> > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> >
> > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> >
> > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> >
> > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
>
>
> I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
>
> - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
Large maps inappropriate? Halo has had PLENTY of Large scale maps before sprint ever entered a Halo game, and are for the most part some of the better maps in Halo games, those maps also would require little if any additional tweaks.
Coag/Blood Gultch/Valhala all have those locations, and generally combat STILL occurs there. Gun fights are not centrally localized in most maps, unless your fighting over the power weapons on said map.
Adrift had that problem because…its not a well concieved map to begin with. Poor map design is poor map design whether sprint is incorperated into the game or not, a bad map is a bad map.
Spawning is exactly the same, in certain modes you don’t always have a BR/DMR right off the bat anyways. And in those larger maps those weapons become even more your best friend when you do have em. Sprint also creates a way for players without them a way to close distance where those weapons can become a liability and don’t make those weapons “the go to” weapon.
Halo had maps with jumping into certain positions (Sniper in Hang em High) in it’s very first game, you can still jump and shoot but not when Clambering, which really is not a game breaking problem to begin with. It makes it easier to get to where your going versus falling down. Also I have not seen map geometry hurting the game, as their are many maps in Halo 5 that have a lot of vertical elements please show me where its downplayed?
If you were able to shoot while sprinting, the game would become even faster then it already is. This is where the sprint argument has some of its legs. Either have sprint the way it is or simply have an increased movement speed, Sprinting is designed as a Burst of speed to get to A to B faster, what hurts this mechanic is that it has no limit to it and no cool down. I can see why they did not add Sprint shooting because Sprint is not a necessity to Halo 5, its an option.
2:18 its gets into this very topic, and i think that's why we did'nt see it added. "Spartans do it in the books" It's a book, you can write whatever you want in it, but how dose that translate to good gameplay.
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> 1. It’s not nonsense. Maps are built for a single, constant sprint speed, but you’re not always moving at sprint speed. Not hard to understand.
>
> 2. Like I said, it tends to happen more now.
>
> 3. Yep, but that’s not how it works and that’s not the only problem.
>
> 4. Yeah, you were less defenseless in Halo 2. Sprint locks you into the direction you’re running. In Halo 2, it would often be unwise to move and look in the same direction because enemies could come from a number of directions. You could move at the maximum speed and defend yourself.
>
> 5. Because it’s not uncommon for thruster to be used to get behind cover quickly. More cover lets that happen more (which actually more frequently allows you to engage in sprint to flee). Not that it’s particularly relevant here, I was basically pointing out the side effect of a side effect.
>
> 6. Getting rid of the ability to spawn traps would consequently introduce unpredictable spawns which would work against players just as much as it would work for them. People don’t like when enemies spawn behind them, it’s not fun and unfair. Spawn manipulation isn’t something that can be fixed unless you adjust player movement. You can adjust pathways on the map, but player speed will offset that, which is why the map would have to be made bigger.
>
> 7. I can’t believe so many seemingly active readers/posters in this thread seem to just not know about any of the issues that have been discussed already.
Your wording is nonsensical. To say that maps are designed around sprint (being that they are larger, have more cover etc) then to say that players are not moving at intended speeds is nonsense. The players move at the exact speeds the devs intended, as all speeds are likely taken into account when maps are designed and tested. I’m not sure what point youre trying to make.
Do we know if side stepping is the same speed as moving forward in h2? I’ve never tested. If not, then any deviation from moving straight would not be maximum speed. Still, given control schemes, even if speed is constant regardless of orientation, looking left and right results in movement not in a straight line. Travel time is thus longer when moving caustiously even in games without sprint. The difference is much less, I’m sure, but on principle its the same issue you say sprint causes.
How so? There are plenty of solutions to spawning that would not produce random spawns.
I get ya. It can be frustrating to feel the need to constantly repeat yourself. I’m a teacher, I get it all the time.
Take zanzibar from previous halo for map design. Medium map that once the objective is past line of scrimmage or time is dwindling, then chances of recovery ate bleak. By closing the gap and go using on 30 seconds of fun, sprint allows for better map traversal and access. Sprint has also closed the gap to make weapons like shotgun and AR feasible weapons against a br or sniper. Spartan charge also allows the ability to take opportunity against unaware TMs. Situational awareness is the key to beating thrusting sprinting and charging foes. Frankly I’ve played short TTK (time to kill games like COD and Doom) and long TTK (halo and division) and offering more mobility benefits both styles of gameplay for defensive and offensive causes. When I jump into MCC Halo games, I feel sluggish and heavy. Halo 5 has overcome this and allows me to combat power weapons, spawning away from team, and recovering objectives. If halo wants to stay in top fps realm, the game MUST be relevant to gameplay flexibility. As someone that makes a priority on map/player awareness and aiming, I rarely get frustrated at spartan abilities.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please stop saying that there’s an option to choose whether to sprint or not. Maps are larger to accommodate for sprint thus punishing players not sprinting. Bullet magnetism is increased to accommodate for maps being so large. There can be no unique maps such as Guardian, Shrine or Lockout with sprint and that’s a pretty heavy price to pay for a poor mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint is a bad design choice and doesn’t fit in the Arena Shooter Halo.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing punishing you for sprinting is your self. The maps are not solely designed for sprint and lockout would play really well with the new abilities and guardian is just a lockout reskin. If you just want H3 with new graphics then you can pick it up next fall along with the scorpio.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This entire post is actually wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you think sprint would play fine on Lockout then, at this point in the thread after all this discussion, you’re simply incapable of understanding the basic effects of sprint such as what it does to spawns.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You lack knowledge on the subject and are either incapable or unwilling to gain knowledge of it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Heaven forbid spawns be less predictable in order to give people a chance!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Less predictable? No, they would be easier to manipulate. Even if they were “less predictable”, spawning next to a couple enemies isn’t helping someone. You pretty much just further proved my point about how oblivious you are to anything regarding sprint.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Like most other things in this game, spawns that are more random are not good, particularly for the person respawning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A higher bms would do all the same things to map design and spawns that you are an expert on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, either you have been reading the thread and you’re continuing to prove my point with that post (because, surprise, you’re wrong again) or you haven’t been reading the thread (which would explain your lack of knowledge) and are arguing this particular part of the discussion that has already been explained countless times.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In both cases you are the one in control of whether or not that changes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You keep claiming that sprint stretches the maps and hurts the spawns because you’re going faster but you say that a higher bms should take sprints place but that would do the same thing that you claim sprint does yet I’m somehow wrong?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes. Have you not been reading this thread at all? This has been explained multiple times. So, do you read any of this or do you just decide to post but not read? Honest question, so I - and others - know how to respond to you in the future.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you don’t want to answer my question that’s fine because you’re contradicting yourself. I have been reading this thread and I could care less about your problems with a mechanic since you’re acting like sprint is the end of the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > Scaling maps to two movement speeds Dosn’t work, scaling them to one does.
> >
> >
> > why not?
>
>
> Moving around while not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage because you are unable to get around the map at a decent pace, meaning you’ll get picked off very easily because the map is too large and you’re going to slow.
whats funny is you saying not sprinting makes you vulnerable and others in this thread saying sprinting leaves you vulnerable…
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> > > > > You guys who are fighting the good fight and explaining why sprint ruined Halos gameplay, remember this. Those who are claiming that they have no idea what is wrong with sprint and we are just making excuses when we’re not explaining it when they ask for the 200th time: they are probably trolls that just want to see you type a thousand word post again, wasting your time. Or they are really, really ignorant.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is one thing to have an opinion about sprint, claim that they like it and try to explain how it makes the gameplay better. It’s totally a different matter to claim time after time that they just don’t see enough explanations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo has changed. Is it a change me and a lot of other Halo player have enjoyed? Can’t say that we have. Are we trying to voice our concerns so the game takes a course for the better? That’s absolutely what we are trying to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Zr0Fear v2, can you make a short list of the things that sprint affects and have the OP edit the first post? I think a lot of hate comes from that post only since it hasn’t been written all that well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have a large list around page 150. Here is the condensed version.
> > > >
> > > > - Sprint influences map design by pushing developers to make larger maps, which is inappropriate for Halo’s core gameplay
> > > > - It creates a large area of “no man’s land” on a map where nobody is actually expected to have a gunfight
> > > > - It also creates areas that are just segues into different parts of the map, e.g. the hallways on Adrift - those are not ideal fighting locations.
> > > > - Sprint deconstructs the spawning system because players are able to get back in the battle too quickly, especially with a straight-shooting weapon like the DMR and lots of open spaces
> > > > - Sprint ruins map geometry by creating gaps that can only be traversed with sprint-powered jumps; jumping and shooting is kind of important in Halo
> > > > - Most significantly, it causes the Spartan to lower their weapon - at no point in a Halo game should a person be unable to shoot their gun unless they’re holding the objective. This is tied into the golden triangle argument (begins mid video) as well as the movement discussion. Instead of seeing what works best for the game 343 has taken the Josh Holmes approach- “Within that larger audience, most people expect to be able to sprint.”. Simply backwards thinking.
> > > > - It downplays the vertical aspect of Halo hugely, creating maps that are horizontally gigantic but vertically insignificant
> > > > Oh, I know what the ladies like - SJ
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the problem with making lists like this will be that they don’t explain much. It tells people what’s bad, but not why, which would still leave us in the same position as we’re in now where people don’t think any of that matters. In that respect I don’t know that a quick summary of issues would do much if posted in the OP at this point.
> >
> >
> > I fully agree, the whole why aspect of this discussion becomes lost in translation due to the need to formulate extensive discussions around each aspect of the game as it relates to gameplay/mechanics. I think the vidoc is telling from a development POV, and should be viewed by all for a simple example in how game design can work with the core of the game and not alter it too much.
>
>
> I have an idea! How about all you anti-sprinters can form your own game development studio and call yourselves Studio117 since you’re experts on how to make proper video games, buy the rights to the Halo franchise from MS. But since that will never happen why don’t you stop -Yoinking!- about how the game doesn’t play exactly like H3 and find a different franchise to obsess over.
This is about preference in mechanics. Claiming everyone wants halo 3 again is missing the point by a large bit. I understand you’re frustrated, that’s fine. We as fans have the rights to discuss these mechanics and their net positives vs their net negatives. Do you have anything of substance to add? Can you even refute my condensed points? Contribute to the discussion if you’d like but if all you will do is complain about criticism you add no value to the discussion.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please stop saying that there’s an option to choose whether to sprint or not. Maps are larger to accommodate for sprint thus punishing players not sprinting. Bullet magnetism is increased to accommodate for maps being so large. There can be no unique maps such as Guardian, Shrine or Lockout with sprint and that’s a pretty heavy price to pay for a poor mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint is a bad design choice and doesn’t fit in the Arena Shooter Halo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing punishing you for sprinting is your self. The maps are not solely designed for sprint and lockout would play really well with the new abilities and guardian is just a lockout reskin. If you just want H3 with new graphics then you can pick it up next fall along with the scorpio.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > This entire post is actually wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you think sprint would play fine on Lockout then, at this point in the thread after all this discussion, you’re simply incapable of understanding the basic effects of sprint such as what it does to spawns.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You lack knowledge on the subject and are either incapable or unwilling to gain knowledge of it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Heaven forbid spawns be less predictable in order to give people a chance!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Less predictable? No, they would be easier to manipulate. Even if they were “less predictable”, spawning next to a couple enemies isn’t helping someone. You pretty much just further proved my point about how oblivious you are to anything regarding sprint.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Like most other things in this game, spawns that are more random are not good, particularly for the person respawning.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A higher bms would do all the same things to map design and spawns that you are an expert on.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, either you have been reading the thread and you’re continuing to prove my point with that post (because, surprise, you’re wrong again) or you haven’t been reading the thread (which would explain your lack of knowledge) and are arguing this particular part of the discussion that has already been explained countless times.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In both cases you are the one in control of whether or not that changes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You keep claiming that sprint stretches the maps and hurts the spawns because you’re going faster but you say that a higher bms should take sprints place but that would do the same thing that you claim sprint does yet I’m somehow wrong?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes. Have you not been reading this thread at all? This has been explained multiple times. So, do you read any of this or do you just decide to post but not read? Honest question, so I - and others - know how to respond to you in the future.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you don’t want to answer my question that’s fine because you’re contradicting yourself. I have been reading this thread and I could care less about your problems with a mechanic since you’re acting like sprint is the end of the world.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Scaling maps to two movement speeds Dosn’t work, scaling them to one does.
> > >
> > >
> > > why not?
> >
> >
> > Moving around while not sprinting puts you at a disadvantage because you are unable to get around the map at a decent pace, meaning you’ll get picked off very easily because the map is too large and you’re going to slow.
>
>
> whats funny is you saying not sprinting makes you vulnerable and others in this thread saying sprinting leaves you vulnerable…
>
> Sounds like nonsense to me.
No, just a lose lose situation. Sprint, and the maps designed to accommodate Sprint, will put the player in a position of vulnerability no matter what they do.