The sprint discussion thread

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2533274891111509;4179:
> > 2533274986201335;4147:
> > 4000 replies… Damn, I’m on the no sprint team but it’s at the point in which it won’t be removed because it’d seem backwards. I’ve accepted the change and moved on.
>
>
> No it wouldn’t seem backwards. All 343 has to do is this. "With Halo 6, we’ve really listened to fan feedback, whether it be in polls, on the forums, or wherever, and we’ve made some big changes we think a lot of you will like.

More like “were reverting to Jurassic gameplay based on feedback from a handful of trolls that can’t put on their big boy pants and accept that the game has evolved”.

> 2533274825830455;4197:
> There is some optimal level of unpredictability that you can allow players to have to make the game just perfect so that predicting player actions is difficult, but not so much that it would remove all structure from gameplay. Determining whether you’ve passed this optimum or whether you still have room is the design challenge. Whether sprint passes this optimum, I don’t know. But I can say that if it does, then the same also applies to higher base movement speed as the unpredictability of players movement, assuming the same map, is only a function of how far the player can get in a given amount of time.

This is not true. In a sprintless Halo, the player’s base movement is their only movement speed. With sprint, the player is given two speeds, which creates a level of discontinuity. If all players are traveling at the same speed, then there is far less unpredictability than if all players had a base movement speed and sprint.

> 2533274825830455;4197:
> > 2533274819567236;4181:
> > > 2535455681930574;4177:
> > > > 2533274819567236;4176:
> > > > > 2535455681930574;4175:
> > > > > > 2533274891111509;4174:
> > > > > > > 2535421582760273;4171:
> > > > > > > The introduction of playing Halo on the same couch with your friend will make Halo Halo gain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Along with a better movement system, which complements Halo’s Arena Shooter gameplay by allowing you to move fast, shoot, throw grenades, and melee without ever lowering your weapon.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What is so wrong with a risk-reward option?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In this case, it slows the pacing, limits the player, introduces more randomness, and encourages defensive play rather than offensive play (which also slows pacing). Why is risk-reward good or necessary?
> > >
> > >
> > > You say randomness, others say variety. Was turning a corner and realizing that the enemy had a shotgun not considered randomness? Or when you pick up a sniper and get killed by a banshee? How does a mechanic designed to make you go faster make the game slower? Even if it did, wouldn’t that make it more like classic halo by balancing the high kill times and ranges? I could easily argue that it encourages aggressive playing, which speeds it up.
> >
> >
> > Sure they’re random, in the sense that, by definition, you could probably make anything seem random. Sprint adds unpredictability and inconsistency in how people move and get around which leads to more randomness you have to account for.
> > Seriously, have you not read any of this thread, because I could swear you’ve posted in it, so you should know by now how it effects pacing.
> > Maybe you could argue that it encourages aggressive play, but you would probably be wrong also. You’d have to take a pretty large leap in logic to say that something that removes your ability to damage enemy players encourages offensive more than defensive play. You say you can make arguments, so make them.
>
>
> You need to be careful when discussing unpredictability. Player generated randomness—e.g., player choosing a path out of many, in contrast to game generated randomness which is inherent to mechanics—is not a bad thing per se. “Sprint adds unpredictability and inconsistency in how people move” is not in itself a valid argument against sprint. Else you end up in the slippery slope that any movement mechanic is bad because it “adds unpredictability and inconsistency in how people move”, including the ability to move in the first place.
>
> The ability for players to behave unpredictably is not a bad thing. It’s a necessity for challenging gameplay. However—and this is the argument you probably want to make—you can’t allow players to be arbitrarily unpredictable or else you make the players too powerful. The extreme example of this would be the ability to teleport anywhere at any time at will. Obviously such a mechanic doesn’t work, not only because it allows players to escape any situation, but because you can never really know where the opponent will be because even if you saw them on one side of the map just a moment ago, they might have teleported to the other side already. There’s no strategy in predicting player movement because there’s no structure in how players move.
>
> There is some optimal level of unpredictability that you can allow players to have to make the game just perfect so that predicting player actions is difficult, but not so much that it would remove all structure from gameplay. Determining whether you’ve passed this optimum or whether you still have room is the design challenge. Whether sprint passes this optimum, I don’t know. But I can say that if it does, then the same also applies to higher base movement speed as the unpredictability of players movement, assuming the same map, is only a function of how far the player can get in a given amount of time.

Yes, what I meant was that unpredictability should have limits. The fact that we’re playing other humans automatically makes things unpredictable, but a certain amount of predictability and reason are required for a game to play out sensibly. Your teleporting example was perfect.

I’m not sure how how you mean a higher base speed would cause the same problems to the same extent. People wouldn’t be switching between different speeds which makes all the difference.

> 2535455681930574;4199:
> > 2533274819567236;4196:
> > > 2535455681930574;4194:
> > > > 2533274819567236;4188:
> > > > > 2535455681930574;4184:
> > > > > > 2533274891111509;4180:
> > > > > > > 2535455681930574;4175:
> > > > > > > > 2533274891111509;4174:
> > > > > > > > > 2535421582760273;4171:
> > > > > > > > > The introduction of playing Halo on the same couch with your friend will make Halo Halo gain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Along with a better movement system, which complements Halo’s Arena Shooter gameplay by allowing you to move fast, shoot, throw grenades, and melee without ever lowering your weapon.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What is so wrong with a risk-reward option?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How is there a risk reward option with sprint, and not one without sprint? Please explain that to me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Risk: The golden triangle is suppressed, which leaves you vulnerable to attack.
> > > > > Reward: You get to your places faster, can surprise the enemy team, and get to a tactical position before the enemy team.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. The Golden Triangle is exactly what the gameplay was built around. The fact that you were always able to shoot, melee, or nade ensured that you always had the ability to be offensive. As far as player mechanics go, you do not put the Golden Triangle on hold because more than anything else in the franchise, the ability to always remain offensive puts more importance on faster pacing and using your skill and smarts all at once. Nothing in this franchise, past or present, does that better than the concept of the Golden Triangle.
> > > > 2. Why does any of what you said need to require your weapon being down? You can surprise people without sprint and you can get to tactical positions without sprint, the only difference is you need to actually fight for it.
> > >
> > >
> > > This thread provides good arguments against the golden triangle. There’s wifi at the restaurant I’m at so I’m able to post this.
> >
> >
> > You’re gonna have to point out which arguments you’re talking about specifically, because I see arguments which stem from a misunderstanding of what the purpose/intention of the Golden Triangle is.
>
>
> The ones against the OP.

I assumed that’s what you meant, but it’s largely people saying you can’t shoot or melee at the same time and stuff like that, which isn’t the point of the GT. That’s the misunderstanding I was referring to.

ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2535458788600398;4205:
> ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it

False.

> 2535409489305717;4098:
> > 2533274804234123;4096:
> > WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE??? This is one of the lamest topics yet, it still garners the top spot in the forums. I know there are better ones out there people. Enough with this thread. No one cares!
>
>
> Its not a lame topic its a topic of should keep sprint or not keep it. So stop spamming and make a discussion on this topic.

How is this spamming? I can look at the last time this thread showed up and it was 07-08. Its now 07-19. Eleven days ago. I was merely pointing out that this is a non issue and because you don’t agree, I’m spamming. If you made some points to show I was spamming then ok. But, don’t accuse me of something I didn’t do.

> 2533274891111509;4202:
> This is not true. In a sprintless Halo, the player’s base movement is their only movement speed. With sprint, the player is given two speeds, which creates a level of discontinuity. If all players are traveling at the same speed, then there is far less unpredictability than if all players had a base movement speed and sprint.

> 2533274819567236;4203:
> I’m not sure how how you mean a higher base speed would cause the same problems to the same extent. People wouldn’t be switching between different speeds which makes all the difference.

People can run at arbitrary speeds lower than their maximum speed regardless of whether sprint exists or not. Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.

> 2533274819567236;4206:
> > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
>
>
> False.

then who knows whats best for halo?

> 2533274804234123;4207:
> > 2535409489305717;4098:
> > > 2533274804234123;4096:
> > > WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HERE??? This is one of the lamest topics yet, it still garners the top spot in the forums. I know there are better ones out there people. Enough with this thread. No one cares!
> >
> >
> > Its not a lame topic its a topic of should keep sprint or not keep it. So stop spamming and make a discussion on this topic.
>
>
> How is this spamming? I can look at the last time this thread showed up and it was 07-08. Its now 07-19. Eleven days ago. I was merely pointing out that this is a non issue and because you don’t agree, I’m spamming. If you made some points to show I was spamming then ok. But, don’t accuse me of something I didn’t do.

Your comment had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and therefore counts as spam. If you have nothing relevant to say, you don’t need to say anything.

> 2533274825830455;4208:
> > 2533274891111509;4202:
> > This is not true. In a sprintless Halo, the player’s base movement is their only movement speed. With sprint, the player is given two speeds, which creates a level of discontinuity. If all players are traveling at the same speed, then there is far less unpredictability than if all players had a base movement speed and sprint.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274819567236;4203:
> > I’m not sure how how you mean a higher base speed would cause the same problems to the same extent. People wouldn’t be switching between different speeds which makes all the difference.
>
>
> People can run at arbitrary speeds lower than their maximum speed regardless of whether sprint exists or not. Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.

First of all, it is very rare that you see Spartans traveling at walking pace in Halo games with no sprint. When you and I play Halo, we do the same thing: push that analog stick all the way forward without ever giving a thought to moving slower.
As for this point you made, “Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.” That is just absolutely false. Sprinting takes away the player’s ability to shoot, grenade, and melee. The implementation of a higher base movement speed give players a way to move fast while still retaining the ability to shoot, grenade, and melee. See the difference there, all knowing monitor?

> 2533274819567236;4204:
> > 2535455681930574;4199:
> > > 2533274819567236;4196:
> > > > 2535455681930574;4194:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;4188:
> > > > > > 2535455681930574;4184:
> > > > > > > 2533274891111509;4180:
> > > > > > > > 2535455681930574;4175:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274891111509;4174:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535421582760273;4171:
> > > > > > > > > > The introduction of playing Halo on the same couch with your friend will make Halo Halo gain.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Along with a better movement system, which complements Halo’s Arena Shooter gameplay by allowing you to move fast, shoot, throw grenades, and melee without ever lowering your weapon.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What is so wrong with a risk-reward option?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How is there a risk reward option with sprint, and not one without sprint? Please explain that to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Risk: The golden triangle is suppressed, which leaves you vulnerable to attack.
> > > > > > Reward: You get to your places faster, can surprise the enemy team, and get to a tactical position before the enemy team.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. The Golden Triangle is exactly what the gameplay was built around. The fact that you were always able to shoot, melee, or nade ensured that you always had the ability to be offensive. As far as player mechanics go, you do not put the Golden Triangle on hold because more than anything else in the franchise, the ability to always remain offensive puts more importance on faster pacing and using your skill and smarts all at once. Nothing in this franchise, past or present, does that better than the concept of the Golden Triangle.
> > > > > 2. Why does any of what you said need to require your weapon being down? You can surprise people without sprint and you can get to tactical positions without sprint, the only difference is you need to actually fight for it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This thread provides good arguments against the golden triangle. There’s wifi at the restaurant I’m at so I’m able to post this.
> > >
> > >
> > > You’re gonna have to point out which arguments you’re talking about specifically, because I see arguments which stem from a misunderstanding of what the purpose/intention of the Golden Triangle is.
> >
> >
> > The ones against the OP.
>
>
> I assumed that’s what you meant, but it’s largely people saying you can’t shoot or melee at the same time and stuff like that, which isn’t the point of the GT. That’s the misunderstanding I was referring to.

Then look at the ones who don’t say that. They make some good points (and yes, one of them is me).

> 2533274825830455;4208:
> > 2533274891111509;4202:
> > This is not true. In a sprintless Halo, the player’s base movement is their only movement speed. With sprint, the player is given two speeds, which creates a level of discontinuity. If all players are traveling at the same speed, then there is far less unpredictability than if all players had a base movement speed and sprint.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274819567236;4203:
> > I’m not sure how how you mean a higher base speed would cause the same problems to the same extent. People wouldn’t be switching between different speeds which makes all the difference.
>
>
> People can run at arbitrary speeds lower than their maximum speed regardless of whether sprint exists or not. Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.

People much, much less frequently move at alternate speeds with just the single base speed though. Moving faster helps in many cases and I think it’s also fair to say that most people move at max speed without even thinking. With one speed there’s also very little to gain from going slower in almost any situation.

> 2535458788600398;4209:
> > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> >
> >
> > False.
>
>
> then who knows whats best for halo?

Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.

> 2533274819567236;4214:
> > 2535458788600398;4209:
> > > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> > >
> > >
> > > False.
> >
> >
> > then who knows whats best for halo?
>
>
> Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.

Anyone who throws away the golden triangle for the sake of bringing in “modern aspects that gamers expect,” is not it to oversee the Halo franchise’s development.

> 2533274819567236;4214:
> > 2535458788600398;4209:
> > > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> > >
> > >
> > > False.
> >
> >
> > then who knows whats best for halo?
>
>
> Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.

ok what i was meaning is they own and control halo so this argument we are have is pointless its up to them to choose to keep sprint or not not us listening to the community for small things is good example bringing back old weapons for warzone ai’s in forge maybe bring back an enemy like brutes or flood but not a big thing like removing sprint a core feature or mechanic

> 2533274891111509;4215:
> > 2533274819567236;4214:
> > > 2535458788600398;4209:
> > > > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > False.
> > >
> > >
> > > then who knows whats best for halo?
> >
> >
> > Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.
>
>
> Anyone who throws away the golden triangle for the sake of bringing in “modern aspects that gamers expect,” is not it to oversee the Halo franchise’s development.

what golden triangle?

> 2535458788600398;4217:
> > 2533274891111509;4215:
> > > 2533274819567236;4214:
> > > > 2535458788600398;4209:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > > > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > > > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > False.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > then who knows whats best for halo?
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.
> >
> >
> > Anyone who throws away the golden triangle for the sake of bringing in “modern aspects that gamers expect,” is not it to oversee the Halo franchise’s development.
>
>
> what golden triangle?

…you’re kidding, right?

> 2533274891111509;4218:
> > 2535458788600398;4217:
> > > 2533274891111509;4215:
> > > > 2533274819567236;4214:
> > > > > 2535458788600398;4209:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;4206:
> > > > > > > 2535458788600398;4205:
> > > > > > > ok the only people how know what’s best for halo is 343 and Microsoft so lets end this argument half the community wants sprint half doesn’t want it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > False.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > then who knows whats best for halo?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maybe individuals in 343, maybe certain members of the community, but certainly not 343 or MS as a whole and there’s little to suggest that they do.
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyone who throws away the golden triangle for the sake of bringing in “modern aspects that gamers expect,” is not it to oversee the Halo franchise’s development.
> >
> >
> > what golden triangle?
>
>
> …you’re kidding, right?

no tell me wait halo 1-3?

> 2533274891111509;4211:
> > 2533274825830455;4208:
> > > 2533274891111509;4202:
> > > This is not true. In a sprintless Halo, the player’s base movement is their only movement speed. With sprint, the player is given two speeds, which creates a level of discontinuity. If all players are traveling at the same speed, then there is far less unpredictability than if all players had a base movement speed and sprint.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274819567236;4203:
> > > I’m not sure how how you mean a higher base speed would cause the same problems to the same extent. People wouldn’t be switching between different speeds which makes all the difference.
> >
> >
> > People can run at arbitrary speeds lower than their maximum speed regardless of whether sprint exists or not. Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.
>
>
> First of all, it is very rare that you see Spartans traveling at walking pace in Halo games with no sprint. When you and I play Halo, we do the same thing: push that analog stick all the way forward without ever giving a thought to moving slower.
>
> As for this point you made, “Sprint does nothing here for potential unpredictability other than boost the maximum speed at which player can run, which could equivalently be accomplished by making the base movement speed higher.” That is just absolutely false. Sprinting takes away the player’s ability to shoot, grenade, and melee. The implementation of a higher base movement speed give players a way to fast while still retaining the ability to shoot, grenade, and melee. See the difference there, all knowing monitor?

Finally we get to the differentiating factor between sprint and simply increasing the base movement speed: the loss of ability to shoot while sprinting. However, can you explain how this limitation contributes to the unpredictability of the player’s movement? After all, as I said, the unpredictability of the player’s movement is simply a function of how much ground they can cover in a given amount of time. This is intuitively clear as the “unpredictability of movement” is simply a measure of the amount of movement options the player can have in a given time frame, i.e., how many states they can end up in in a given time frame. (Or if you maybe disagree with this definition of unpredictability of movement, you might suggest your own?) Taking this, we understand that whether you are able to do other things while running has no effect on the unpredictability of movement.

Of course, we can ask are there other types of unpredictability the inability to do other things than run contributes to? To honest, this isn’t something I’ve considered, but intuitively I would say that taking something away can’t increase the unpredictability. But if you can suggest a way in which it does, I’m all ears. However, if my intuition is correct, then sprint as most adds as much unpredictability as increasing the base movement speed, and possibly even less.

Finally, concerning your first paragraph. Obviously I know that players don’t really make use of the full range of the analog stick. Usually if players want to move slower than they can (though this is rarely necessary), they either take a small detour or wait a second or two. However, this doesn’t really matter, as the unpredictability of the player’s movement is determined by the maximum range to which they can move. The shorter distances are rarely used because, it turns out, staying in one spot usually is not so good strategy.