The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > >
> > >
> > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> >
> >
> > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
>
>
> Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.

Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?

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> > > Long average kill times is what Halo is built on compared to the rest of gaming. the variances between the ones now and the ones in Halo 3 are marginal at best. Of course, movement abilities do more to affect this than sprint does.
> > >
> > > Dead zones exist in all maps, in all games. Unless you can tell me how elongation is only affecting Halo out of all other games, im not buying that elongation is a big concern for the casual gamer.
> > >
> > > Im suggesting Halo cant become popular overnight because of immersion, and skill. It cant draw enough of a casual gamer base vs other games out there today, What you are trying to do is make it less and less immersive. We’ve had this argument before.
> > >
> > > We’ve also argued Halo 3’s popularity before. Its a few pages back, in response to arcgalactable. I firmly believe, that while being a well made, fun game, Halo’s popularity was born of necessity, not choice. Its easy to be popular when you’re the only fish in the pond. sure there are tiny microorganisms floating around but they dont even come close to you.
> > >
> > > 343 has a history of having a vision for Halo and doing what they want. That lines up with the vision for half the community, and doesnt line up with the other half.
> >
> >
> > Halo has longer average kill times than other games, but they should still be quick. Making them longer than they are is never ok. If longer kill times are better, tell me why.
> >
> > Why is elongation good for Halo? What does it add? I’ve told you some of the drawkbacks, so if we’re still arguing this, there must be some positives you want to mention.
> >
> > A good ranking system will prevent skill based gameplay from being a problem for newcomers. Certainly wasn’t a problem with Halo 2. Gameplay has always come before immersion and it didn’t hold back previous games. You’re acting like these are problems that have always been around. They’re not. If you’re gonna suggest that people played Halo because they “no choice” and not because it was fun, just let me know now so I can take my leave because I’m not arguing that nonsense.
>
>
> Longer kill times, if by a marginal amount, reward players who have better positioning or better skill, im all for it. Like in our scenario here. Two people duking it out amongst cover and what not (But Attack on Sanctum says there isnt cover so now im not sure if TTK is actually going up or not) whoever gets the upper hand has better skill or positioning. Id reward that.

What has H3 done to this community…

http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/12361-why-kill-times-matter/

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> > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > All negative effects it has matter. Sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in another way with fewer negative side effects on the game. The worse option is chosen simply “because”. That’s why it’s important for people to justify what it adds to the game, because if they can’t come up with anything then that means the negative effects can be elimated without worry of losing anything positive. Halo is less welcoming now than ever because of a poor ranking system and overstuffed gameplay. Halo always took skill and Halo 5 is more forgiving in some of those cases (autos being the obvious example). People would rather not have their -Yoink- kicked for 10 games for each playlist in order to get a rank or have to learn a thousand different player mechanics in order to play competently. Halo is no longer simple to learn and hard to master and that makes it much less accessible than previous entries and other shooters on the market.
> > >
> > >
> > > It became not simple to learn when games like CoD hit the market. That has as much to do with this as sprint does.
> > >
> > > I will say it, because its important. You cant offer immersion with a base speed increase. No matter how much you hate/dislike immersion, a combat instinct has merit in a combat game. Sprint is exactly that. Its called fight or flight for a reason.
> > >
> > > Anecdotal evidence be -Yoink!-, but id wager a large portion of Halo players have had friends pick up the game and ask them “Why cant I sprint?”.
> >
> >
> > People would only have that reaction in a game like halo 3 because it’s so -Yoink!- slow. Nobody wants that.
> >
> > I guarantee you nobody picks up the new doom and says “why can’t I sprint”. You’re moving so fast as it is. That’s the thing about trying to mimic a super soldier and create that immersion. You should not be trying to create the feel of “basic human instinct” because you’re not supposed to be a basic human.
>
>
> Yeah well judging by sales and population numbers, no one on consoles really picked up the new doom. PC players love it though.
>
> So was Halo 3 slow or not. Reduce FOV and it wasnt slow anymore or was it actually slow?
>
> One thing is for sure, the anti-sprinter group is focused on no sprint, but after that you guys are as fragmented as Chief’s visor after Locke gave him that punch. Y’all really need to get together and decide on some things

Sales can be a fickle beast when it comes to what is essentially a new IP in this day and age. The game’s SP was a critical darling though. We’ll have to wait to see how that equates to sales as the franchise moves forwards as plenty of new IPs and reboots were critical darlings but only took off sales wise when the sequel was released. Population wise, the game’s MP is terrible in every way other than the movement. It’s truly butchered. Much in the same way h4 was and oh look, certain affinity developed both.

H3 was slow. FOV did have a huge impact on that. Funny enough if you go on the MCC(or the originals) and play h2 SP it feels fast. Play it splitcreen? Slow as a snail. Play H3 SP, slow as hell. Play it splitcreen? It’s pretty fast. The only differences are changes to the FOV. It’s amazing how much of an impact FOV has.

Anti sprint Halo players are actually pretty close when it comes to their logic. I haven’t been reading this other guys posts so im not sure why you think were contradicting each other.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> > >
> > >
> > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
> >
> >
> > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
>
>
> Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?

You don’t. We don’t want to play the same settings. Simple as that. The game will never be fully optimized for competitive play with compromises, much like Halo 5. You split playlists, Team Hardcore/MLG/HCS/whatever, and an unranked slayer or objective playlist. Trying to cater to both with one mode won’t work with Halo.

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> > > You should probably leave now then. The only competitive FPS game on consoles from 2001 to 2009, from a pure popularity standpoint, was Halo. That means a wide range of players were coming in to fill the ranking system. If casual players start leaving, who fills those ranks. Well middle tiers become lower tiers and the upper tiers become even more marginalized. I am not saying these are problems that have always been around. The casual gamer problem has been around since 2009, when most casual gamers left the Halo franchise. In the subsequent years, more followed. What we are left with is a large portion of players with Halo experience, and then the smaller percentage who have no clue what the -Yoink- is going on and dont understand how the game works since the only similarity between Halo and other mass market shooters is sprint and guns.
> >
> >
> > Interesting world you live where people have “no choice” but to play a game they don’t find fun. Or maybe you just live in some weird country that would force people to play Halo even if they didn’t like it. Whatever it is, it’s fascinating lace you’re in.
> >
> > “People only played Halo because they had ‘no choice’”
> >
> > You should lead off with that whenever you debate anything here. It would keep a lot of people from wasting their time.
>
>
> You were the one that told me the masses dont know what they want. Tell me, if you wanted to play a popular FPS from 2004-2009 on consoles, what would you play?
>
> Funny, I get where you were coming from. The masses thought they wanted Halo, but they really just wanted CoD. Huh, I guess people are stupid. They dont know what they want

Halo. Why?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> > >
> > >
> > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
> >
> >
> > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
>
>
> Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?

You don’t.

2507

> 2533274970658419;2502:
> What has H3 done to this community…
>
> http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/12361-why-kill-times-matter/

That is a fantastic explanation.

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> > 2533274848599184;2494:
> > > 2533274819567236;2490:
> > > > 2533274848599184;2485:
> > > > Long average kill times is what Halo is built on compared to the rest of gaming. the variances between the ones now and the ones in Halo 3 are marginal at best. Of course, movement abilities do more to affect this than sprint does.
> > > >
> > > > Dead zones exist in all maps, in all games. Unless you can tell me how elongation is only affecting Halo out of all other games, im not buying that elongation is a big concern for the casual gamer.
> > > >
> > > > Im suggesting Halo cant become popular overnight because of immersion, and skill. It cant draw enough of a casual gamer base vs other games out there today, What you are trying to do is make it less and less immersive. We’ve had this argument before.
> > > >
> > > > We’ve also argued Halo 3’s popularity before. Its a few pages back, in response to arcgalactable. I firmly believe, that while being a well made, fun game, Halo’s popularity was born of necessity, not choice. Its easy to be popular when you’re the only fish in the pond. sure there are tiny microorganisms floating around but they dont even come close to you.
> > > >
> > > > 343 has a history of having a vision for Halo and doing what they want. That lines up with the vision for half the community, and doesnt line up with the other half.
> > >
> > >
> > > Halo has longer average kill times than other games, but they should still be quick. Making them longer than they are is never ok. If longer kill times are better, tell me why.
> > >
> > > Why is elongation good for Halo? What does it add? I’ve told you some of the drawkbacks, so if we’re still arguing this, there must be some positives you want to mention.
> > >
> > > A good ranking system will prevent skill based gameplay from being a problem for newcomers. Certainly wasn’t a problem with Halo 2. Gameplay has always come before immersion and it didn’t hold back previous games. You’re acting like these are problems that have always been around. They’re not. If you’re gonna suggest that people played Halo because they “no choice” and not because it was fun, just let me know now so I can take my leave because I’m not arguing that nonsense.
> >
> >
> > Longer kill times, if by a marginal amount, reward players who have better positioning or better skill, im all for it. Like in our scenario here. Two people duking it out amongst cover and what not (But Attack on Sanctum says there isnt cover so now im not sure if TTK is actually going up or not) whoever gets the upper hand has better skill or positioning. Id reward that.
>
>
> What has H3 done to this community…
>
> http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/12361-why-kill-times-matter/

Look the original point of this was how casuals would respond to the game and if it mattered to them. What you suggest matters to all of us, and yes, I’ve read it before. However, I feel that with the way Halo works, right now, and the way weapon damage is balanced, this sort of study is foolish. Halo has always been, providing everyone has equal guns, that numerical advantage is superior. Only in CE did this not matter, and that is only because of the pistol.

From the perspective of a casual gamer, he may want faster kill times, but he doesnt view them as faster or slower kill times. He views it as a kill. And we he shoots someone and gets shield feedback, he may be coonfused if he hasnt played a Halo game before.

In this scenario that me and Zr0 talked about, sprint only plays a factor in making the spaces larger. Zr0 argues that it increase distance and prompt uses of cover, Sanctum argues it makes all spaces wide open. Both scenarios have different applications in terms of how a fight would go down and the average kill time of that fight. In the scenario me and Zr0 were talking about, it works the same as someone potshotting across the map on Midship or fighting around cover.

In any case, that argument was largely anecdotal and largely hypothetical. Elongation leading to longer TTK implies movement, and that is in all Halo games.

2509

omg this thread is back.

srsly, i get it. this is a problem, one way or another.

but pls. 2500+ threads of hate.

2510

I’m sorry, I completely disagree. It would make the big game modes “Warzone” seem somewhat slow paced when is suppose to be all out chaos. Also, who ever heard of a super soldier not sprinting into battle?

2511

> 2533274819567236;2505:
> > 2533274848599184;2500:
> > > 2533274819567236;2499:
> > > > 2533274848599184;2494:
> > > > You should probably leave now then. The only competitive FPS game on consoles from 2001 to 2009, from a pure popularity standpoint, was Halo. That means a wide range of players were coming in to fill the ranking system. If casual players start leaving, who fills those ranks. Well middle tiers become lower tiers and the upper tiers become even more marginalized. I am not saying these are problems that have always been around. The casual gamer problem has been around since 2009, when most casual gamers left the Halo franchise. In the subsequent years, more followed. What we are left with is a large portion of players with Halo experience, and then the smaller percentage who have no clue what the -Yoink- is going on and dont understand how the game works since the only similarity between Halo and other mass market shooters is sprint and guns.
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting world you live where people have “no choice” but to play a game they don’t find fun. Or maybe you just live in some weird country that would force people to play Halo even if they didn’t like it. Whatever it is, it’s fascinating lace you’re in.
> > >
> > > “People only played Halo because they had ‘no choice’”
> > >
> > > You should lead off with that whenever you debate anything here. It would keep a lot of people from wasting their time.
> >
> >
> > You were the one that told me the masses dont know what they want. Tell me, if you wanted to play a popular FPS from 2004-2009 on consoles, what would you play?
> >
> > Funny, I get where you were coming from. The masses thought they wanted Halo, but they really just wanted CoD. Huh, I guess people are stupid. They dont know what they want
>
>
> Halo. Why?

What else. Remember, Im arguing necessity. Give me a game that FPS shooter fans would have played rather than Halo. Ive looked for it, really I have. If people wanted to play a shooter, it was Halo. It was an incredibly fun game, im not arguing that it wasnt. Im arguing that it wasnt the game for casual fans, and that more than anything has led to its decline. When people found other games, they left. More than sprint, or art choices, or anything. Sprint isnt making anyone leave, and may bring some new people in, but it is in Halo and it hasnt done much damage. Its like a catalyst for old Halo fans to channel their rage Yes, Halo 4 reduced the community even more, but it cant be all to blame.

If i thought that taking the game back to classic gameplay would help the franchise, I would be advocating it. But I really dont think so. And nothing has proven to me otherwise. I loved Halo 3, disliked Reach and 2, liked CE, liked 4, and ill judge Halo 5 later when I have the benefit of hindsight. However, what I can say is that the industry turned more and more relatable, casual, and yes, immersive, in the years after 2009. CoD went full modern, we got Warfighter, Red Dead, all games based on real world application. Only when those started running dry did we jump to sci-fi. Halo was never going to come back after CoD came out. Its not because of Reach or 4, or Bungie leaving. Part of me believe Bungie knew that, so they left. I mean, they created the exact game that so many people on here “hate”. With sprint, no moment to moment gameplay, abilities and RNG loot. Not story but a ton of DLC, and none of that was for free. But its doing a lot better than Halo.

2512

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> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
> > >
> > >
> > > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
> >
> >
> > Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?
>
>
> You don’t.

So who do you choose to alienate?

2513

In 2007 I could play H3, COD4, TF2, Ranbow six vegas, GRAW 2(only game to ever get a 10/10 on gametrailers.com), gears, guitar hero, rock band(these games were HUGE at the time) NHL, NBA, Madden, MLB, GTA etc. 07 is widely considered one of the strongest years in gaming EVER. And this was just in 07. H3 then also competed against all the games from 08 and 09.

I literally laugh so hard when people say H3 had no competition. H3 faced stiff competition in an age where consoles had low install bases and even lower attach rates of XBL .Let’s not forget the hysteria that was RROD either.

2514

> 2533274827519891;7:
> > 2533274881560701;5:
> > > 2533274973685362;4:
> > > didn’t even bother reading it because it is the dumbest topic out there right now. Just because it has sprint doesn’t mean its not Halo. It’s one whole mechanic, that’s it. If you don’t like sprint, don’t sprint. Problem solved.
> >
> >
> > Except the maps are purposefully stretched out to accompany sprint, so that stretched maps will have the same sprint travel time as a non stretched map with just walking. So
> > not sprinting is punishing because the game had to be made around it.
>
>
> not true, the only time you NEED, to sprint, is if you are trying to break a wall in warzone. i have stopped sprinting completely and do just fine.
>
> sprint should stay, spartan charge is what needs to leave.
>
> not having sprint is not what made halo, halo. the BR, needler, floaty jumps, and spartans, made halo, halo. sprint alone does not make or break halo, the people who can’t get over it, are what breaks halo.

Yes i agree i hate Spartan charge was as or is as bad as armor lock in reach. And another thing that should go is the Spartan slide i think this ads to that thrust slide and covers too much ground! Gets annoying. Keep ground pound i think fits game just fine it doesn’t really speed up the game at all and it has a great balance cuz u can shoot someone down that takes too long. Climbing walls ok as well as sprinting!

2515

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> > > > > > > > > 2535460097937638;2486:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?
> >
> >
> > You don’t.
>
>
> So who do you choose to alienate?

Nobody. You use one of Halo’s strongest qualities; customisation. Halo has never been a one size fits all game. I have no idea why 343 has tried to make it that with H5.

2516

This thread got back as a popular topic again? I never saw this happening.

2517

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
> > >
> > >
> > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
> >
> >
> > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
>
>
> Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?

This radar is not just reduced tho. It doesn’t really work at all unless the person is involved in some sort of action. I’ve tested this many times in arena and slayer. U can have the opposing team literally running next to and he will not show up on radar unless he Spartan charge towards nades or shoots towards someone. So this just makes this game frustrating to cuz if I’m engaged in a fight i normally will get shot right after i take this guy down by his teammate that doesn’t show up on radar coming right at me. I’m dead cuz I’m a one shot at this point. If radar worked at least i would know they were coming and attempt to run or hide. This us the first time radar has been basically a non working element in this game. Every other halo had radar and nobody complained then. Can’t see why u take something away that people have been playing with for years.

2518

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
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> > > > > > > > > > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > > > > > > > > > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
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> > > > > > > > > > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
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> > > > > > > > > How does increasing the radar so that you see a casual player coming a mile away help?
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> > > > > > Just a heads up, competitive players don’t want radar in Team Arena, for almost the same reason quoted here. It gives free information.
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> > > > > So why is reduced radar not a compromise? It warns you of imminent danger, but doesnt give you too much time to pitch your tent or pre-fire
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> > > >
> > > > It is a compromise. but nobody wants a compromise. Casual players want a normal size radar and competitive players don’t want one at all.
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> > >
> > > Exactly this. Also, a smaller radar just makes it worse in my opinion. Now the moment I see someone on the radar we both instantly crouch and hit Y. That slows the game down, and just isn’t fun slowly walking towards a door ready to spam.
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> >
> > Now see this makes sense in the scenario of two skilled players. So how do you go about creating a compromise between skilled and casual players?
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> This radar is not just reduced tho. It doesn’t really work at all unless the person is involved in some sort of action. I’ve tested this many times in arena and slayer. U can have the opposing team literally running next to and he will not show up on radar unless he Spartan charge towards nades or shoots towards someone. So this just makes this game frustrating to cuz if I’m engaged in a fight i normally will get shot right after i take this guy down by his teammate that doesn’t show up on radar coming right at me. I’m dead cuz I’m a one shot at this point. If radar worked at least i would know they were coming and attempt to run or hide. This us the first time radar has been basically a non working element in this game. Every other halo had radar and nobody complained then. Can’t see why u take something away that people have been playing with for years.

Because the pros said to make it smaller and 343 listened.

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Here is my piece of mind

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> > > > > You should probably leave now then. The only competitive FPS game on consoles from 2001 to 2009, from a pure popularity standpoint, was Halo. That means a wide range of players were coming in to fill the ranking system. If casual players start leaving, who fills those ranks. Well middle tiers become lower tiers and the upper tiers become even more marginalized. I am not saying these are problems that have always been around. The casual gamer problem has been around since 2009, when most casual gamers left the Halo franchise. In the subsequent years, more followed. What we are left with is a large portion of players with Halo experience, and then the smaller percentage who have no clue what the -Yoink- is going on and dont understand how the game works since the only similarity between Halo and other mass market shooters is sprint and guns.
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> > > >
> > > > Interesting world you live where people have “no choice” but to play a game they don’t find fun. Or maybe you just live in some weird country that would force people to play Halo even if they didn’t like it. Whatever it is, it’s fascinating lace you’re in.
> > > > “People only played Halo because they had ‘no choice’”
> > > > You should lead off with that whenever you debate anything here. It would keep a lot of people from wasting their time.
> > >
> > >
> > > You were the one that told me the masses dont know what they want. Tell me, if you wanted to play a popular FPS from 2004-2009 on consoles, what would you play?
> > > Funny, I get where you were coming from. The masses thought they wanted Halo, but they really just wanted CoD. Huh, I guess people are stupid. They dont know what they want
> >
> >
> > Halo. Why?
>
>
> What else. Remember, Im arguing necessity. Give me a game that FPS shooter fans would have played rather than Halo. Ive looked for it, really I have. If people wanted to play a shooter, it was Halo. It was an incredibly fun game, im not arguing that it wasnt. Im arguing that it wasnt the game for casual fans, and that more than anything has led to its decline. When people found other games, they left. More than sprint, or art choices, or anything. Sprint isnt making anyone leave, and may bring some new people in, but it is in Halo and it hasnt done much damage. Its like a catalyst for old Halo fans to channel their rage Yes, Halo 4 reduced the community even more, but it cant be all to blame.
> If i thought that taking the game back to classic gameplay would help the franchise, I would be advocating it. But I really dont think so. And nothing has proven to me otherwise. I loved Halo 3, disliked Reach and 2, liked CE, liked 4, and ill judge Halo 5 later when I have the benefit of hindsight. However, what I can say is that the industry turned more and more relatable, casual, and yes, immersive, in the years after 2009. CoD went full modern, we got Warfighter, Red Dead, all games based on real world application. Only when those started running dry did we jump to sci-fi. Halo was never going to come back after CoD came out. Its not because of Reach or 4, or Bungie leaving. Part of me believe Bungie knew that, so they left. I mean, they created the exact game that so many people on here “hate”. With sprint, no moment to moment gameplay, abilities and RNG loot. Not story but a ton of DLC, and none of that was for free. But its doing a lot better than Halo.

So, did people play Halo because it was fun or because they had no choice? I’m not sure which stance you’re sticking with here.