The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
2461

> 2535471109694535;2451:
> > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > >
> > >
> > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> >
> >
> > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
>
>
> Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
>
> If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
>
> P.S.
> DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.

Excellent post, agreed on all points… These anti-sprint debaters are in the “bait then attack,” mode over this issue, and doing so in an intense fashion. To most people sprint just isn’t that serious of an issue.

I will say that I’ll never forget how the lack of sprint made BTB so boring for me in Halo 3… It seemingly took an eternity to slowly make your way across larger maps which also made deaths that much more frustrating; particularly for objective games where you had little choice other than to keep trying to get to the enemy’s base. Vehicles never seemed to spawn in fast enough and they were always hogged by everyone else on the team looking to avoid that dreadful walk of shame to the far side of the map. Of course, this was not nearly as big of an issue for smaller maps, which is why I’ve stated in the past that “throwback,” classic playlists would be a better option then removing sprint altogether, because sprint could be disabled for the old school anti-sprint crowd… But these anti-sprint guys never did strike me as the comprising crowd either.

2462

> 2533274890584596;2459:
> > 2533274848599184;2457:
> > > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > >
> > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > >
> > > > P.S.
> > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > >
> > >
> > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > >
> > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> >
> >
> > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> >
> > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
>
>
> It would be “affect” in this case.
>
> And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it. Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
>
> And the idea that there was only Halo to play is similarly dubious. The original Modern Warfare came out in the same year as Halo 3. Halo 3’s population stayed strong for years after that. It survived MW2 just fine as well. It wasn’t until fundamental, detrimental changes were made to the formula that Halo started its decline.

These routes and abilities you refer to are in many, many games. The real issues with Halo that casual gamers you find is that you shoot someone and it hits an energy shield on that person and they dont die in 1.0 seconds. There is no minimap to tell them exactly where everyone is, and aim-assist isnt cranked up to 1000% to help everyone get kills. Casuals dont care about how many routes there are or windows to climb through. They want to play a game, be good at it, and have fun. Being good and having fun normally correlate pretty well.

As Halo fans, most people do care about the radar, fair enough. But standard gamers arent worried about map elongation or players running away. Most Halo fans by now have understood this is a team game, reliant on team shooting and map control. Map elongation isnt a problem when there are huge maps since the beginning of the game like Sidewinder or Avalanche. TTK has essentially stayed the same, and is still much larger than most other games. The only issue here that Halo players are rightfully angry with, and would probably be on a large scale, is the smaller radar. 343 said why they did it. Anecdotal evidence isn’t really good evidence but I’ve seen new players get confused by the radar countless times. Im sure you have too.

The original Modern Warfare, while essentially rebirthing the CoD series when comparing sales to CoD 3, it cant hold a candle to Halo 3. Halo 3 doubled the launch month sales of CoD 4 in its first 12 days of sale. Why? People didnt understand CoD, couldnt relate to just another military WW2 shooter. CoD 5 did nothing to help this. Modern Warfare 2 comes out, and suddenly, within its first month of release, it is top of the XBL Activity Chart. How is that possible?

Let me give you some numbers.

Sales for Halo 3 vs CoD 4: Modern Warfare
Halo 3: Xbox 360 sales within first 12 days - 3.3 million.
CoD 4: Xbox 360 sales within first month - 1.57 million

Hardly comparable, and Halo continued to grow threw brand recognition and more adopters of consoles. CoD has still not hit is peak. World at War did not help, going back to WW2 setting. Data wise, World At War managed to sell a combined 1.41 million units across ALL consoles. The point im trying to get at, CoD still hadnt hit its peak.

Sales for Halo 3 vs Modern Warfare 2
By this point in the generation, Halo had sold very well. It had sold at least 8.1 million copies by January of 2008. Modern Warfare 2 came out in 2009. So add at least 1 more year of sales to Halo 3. But for all purposes, we’ll use 8.1 as a comparable figure.

Modern Warfare 2: Xbox 360 sales withing first month - 4.2 millon.

Link 1
Link 2These two links go to the activity pages for November 2009 and December 2009. Both of these list have Modern Warfare 2 at the top of that activity list, which counts UU’s on a weekly basis. This tells us one thing. When Modern Warfare 2 came out, at least 4 million Halo players just did not touch the franchise on a weekly basis. Maybe even longer. I dont have all the Activity charts, but a quick google search shows me that Halo lost the top spot in both April 2010 and was down to the 7th spot for January 8th of 2010.

Funnily enough, the amount of Halo fans left after Modern Warfare 2 came through is roughly the same amount of sales that we average now. Sort of like all the casual gamers slowly took off. But yeah, sure, this isnt a decline at all.

2463

> 2533274848599184;2457:
> > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > >
> > >
> > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > >
> > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > >
> > > P.S.
> > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> >
> >
> > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> >
> > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
>
>
> Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
>
> Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.

All negative effects it has matter. Sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in another way with fewer negative side effects on the game. The worse option is chosen simply “because”. That’s why it’s important for people to justify what it adds to the game, because if they can’t come up with anything then that means the negative effects can be elimated without worry of losing anything positive. Halo is less welcoming now than ever because of a poor ranking system and overstuffed gameplay. Halo always took skill and Halo 5 is more forgiving in some of those cases (autos being the obvious example). People would rather not have their -Yoink- kicked for 10 games for each playlist in order to get a rank or have to learn a thousand different player mechanics in order to play competently. Halo is no longer simple to learn and hard to master and that makes it much less accessible than previous entries and other shooters on the market.

2464

> 2533274890584596;2459:
> And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.

And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.

2465

> 2535460097937638;2460:
> > 2533274848599184;2457:
> > > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > >
> > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > >
> > > > P.S.
> > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > >
> > >
> > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > >
> > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> >
> >
> > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> >
> > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
>
>
> No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.

Map elongation would be a real argument if maps werent constantly getting bigger and bigger.

“Oh look, it takes longer to get from Base to Base on Truth than on Midship”

yeah, it also takes longer to get from armory to armory in Escape from ARC. Maps get bigger. A bigger space isnt a bad thing for a skilled players. Longer spaces + desprint = much more room to kill sprinting soldiers who made poor tactical decision.

TTK has stayed relatively consistent, so has base speed from Reach to 4 to 5.

So what we have left in enemies being able to escape. Ignoring movement abilities, the biggest part of competitive Halo is teamwork, It takes teamwork to gain map control, teamwork to win, and teamshooting to get kills. Like I said, the elongation works both ways. More space to kill, more space to be killed. Sprint, get there faster. Run, have your gun ready.

What you have failed to address, however, is how Halo is not a game for casual gamers. Whereas it used to be. Besides the REQ system, can you tell me any reason that someone would have a hard time adjusting to Halo 5 vs Halo 3 or Halo Reach?

2466

> 2533274819567236;2464:
> > 2533274890584596;2459:
> > And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
>
>
> And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.

So what does that say for the population that does find it fun? There are a lot of them, look around the forums. Except most pro-sprinters treat them like scum.

Its almost like you’re saying they shouldnt be having fun, because the distance between bases on Truth is longer than Midship. But that would be silly.

2467

It’s pointless to explain it either way… people who hate sprint will dismiss any reason the people who like sprint and the people who like sprint will do the same thing. It’s all matter of opinion. There are no true facts to back up either argument.

2468

> 2533274819567236;2463:
> > 2533274848599184;2457:
> > > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > >
> > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > >
> > > > P.S.
> > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > >
> > >
> > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > >
> > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> >
> >
> > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> >
> > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
>
>
> All negative effects it has matter. Sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in another way with fewer negative side effects on the game. The worse option is chosen simply “because”. That’s why it’s important for people to justify what it adds to the game, because if they can’t come up with anything then that means the negative effects can be elimated without worry of losing anything positive. Halo is less welcoming now than ever because of a poor ranking system and overstuffed gameplay. Halo always took skill and Halo 5 is more forgiving in some of those cases (autos being the obvious example). People would rather not have their -Yoink- kicked for 10 games for each playlist in order to get a rank or have to learn a thousand different player mechanics in order to play competently. Halo is no longer simple to learn and hard to master and that makes it much less accessible than previous entries and other shooters on the market.

It became not simple to learn when games like CoD hit the market. That has as much to do with this as sprint does.

I will say it, because its important. You cant offer immersion with a base speed increase. No matter how much you hate/dislike immersion, a combat instinct has merit in a combat game. Sprint is exactly that. Its called fight or flight for a reason.

Anecdotal evidence be -Yoink!-, but id wager a large portion of Halo players have had friends pick up the game and ask them “Why cant I sprint?”. Its a pretty basic human trait, its in many other games, and gives people familiarity in a game where the spartan has energy shields, runs around with plasma weapons, and certains guns have multiple firing modes/cant shoot at all.

Edit: Also, its not the effects we are arguing essentially. Its the connotation of them being negative. I dont see OP autos as a negative effect of sprint. I see it as “If i shoot someone with the SMG whilst standing right in front of them, it should probably do a bit better than this tiny pistol”. I dont see a longer or shorter TTK as a negative effect, especially because the change is so minimal. Likewise, elongation is not a “negative” effect of sprint. Maps get bigger all the times, and vehicles arent always available. With boosting, sliding, and sprinting, I can travel as fast as I ever have as a spartan. No it doesnt make the game any faster, but it makes the game more fun. Of course, a personal opinion,.

2469

> 2533274848599184;2466:
> > 2533274819567236;2464:
> > > 2533274890584596;2459:
> > > And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
> >
> >
> > And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.
>
>
> So what does that say for the population that does find it fun? There are a lot of them, look around the forums. Except most pro-sprinters treat them like scum.
>
> Its almost like you’re saying they shouldnt be having fun, because the distance between bases on Truth is longer than Midship. But that would be silly.

The population that thinks its fun probably couldn’t tell you why they like it. That being the case, when it’s removed and everything is adjusted accordingly, most wouldn’t have a problem. As I often say, sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in an alternative way. Accomplish it in that other way and those people won’t notice because the effect is the same, just done differently and with less drawbacks (which also benefits those who knew their were problems, but just didn’t know what they were). You see it all the time when arguing against moving sprint, “you’ll be moving like a turtle”. They have no idea how the game would be made without sprint and just assume they’d dislike it because of their misconceptions, when in reality the game would accommodate for the lack of sprint.

2470

> 2533274819567236;2469:
> > 2533274848599184;2466:
> > > 2533274819567236;2464:
> > > > 2533274890584596;2459:
> > > > And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
> > >
> > >
> > > And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.
> >
> >
> > So what does that say for the population that does find it fun? There are a lot of them, look around the forums. Except most pro-sprinters treat them like scum.
> >
> > Its almost like you’re saying they shouldnt be having fun, because the distance between bases on Truth is longer than Midship. But that would be silly.
>
>
> The population that thinks its fun probably couldn’t tell you why they like it. That being the case, when it’s removed and everything is adjusted accordingly, most wouldn’t have a problem. As I often say, sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in an alternative way. Accomplish it in that other way and those people won’t notice because the effect is the same, just done differently and with less drawbacks (which also benefits those who knew their were problems, but just didn’t know what they were). You see it all the time when arguing against moving sprint, “you’ll be moving like a turtle”. They have no idea how the game would be made without sprint and just assume they’d dislike it because of their misconceptions, when in reality the game would accommodate for the lack of sprint.

Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.

And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.

2471

> 2533274848599184;2465:
> > 2535460097937638;2460:
> > > 2533274848599184;2457:
> > > > 2533274819567236;2454:
> > > > > 2535471109694535;2451:
> > > > > > 2625759425619671;2446:
> > > > > > > 2533274819567236;2440:
> > > > > > > > 2533274816788253;2434:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274900911359;2429:
> > > > > > > > > The first Halo game to add sprint (Reach) PLUMITED the Halo community. The first Halo game to add sprint as a standard mechanic (Halo 4) Ruined the franchise. Is this a coincidence? I think not! Maybe if 343 goes back to what was obviously working, they would make a truly great Halo game. Just look at Overwatch. No sprint… killing Halo 5 in just a few months of release as compared to Halo’s 7 months.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually it wasn’t sprint IMO… it was loadouts and armor abilities in general not to mention they took away the awesome matchmaking and rank structure. Those things killed Halo not the addition of one mechanic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why is sprint good for the game? Can you not even think of an answer?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why do you keep demanding people to give you reasons for this? Isn’t the fact that they like sprint good enough? Or do you insist on getting individual points so you can better attempt to pick them apart one by one?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Half 9th his arguments are just “OK, but what makes it good?” That’s like saying “Why are gun laws good?” It does nothing but prolong an argument that is otherwise in an unfavorable state for the attacking side.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you really are curious about what are good reasons for keeping sprint, then maybe you should go from page one and catch up to here.
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S.
> > > > > DOOM is not the fastest game in the market, it does seem fast but a lot of it is a wider FOV. I won’t lie that it’s not fast but there are faster games, like some arena shooters, that just aren’t as recent or popular.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So I guess you can’t tell me why sprint is good for the gameplay either, huh? Funny how the anti-sprinters can explain in detail how sprint effects the game negatively, but pro-sprinters all to often can’t seem to explain why it effects the game positively.
> > > >
> > > > P.S. Whether its speed or FOV doesn’t matter, my point remains that Doom doesn’t have sprint and it isn’t “too slow” and is one probably the fastest paced shooter on consoles right now. If you think otherwise, give some examples.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is affect or effect the correct usage in this situation? It always boggles me.
> > >
> > > Look, most of the anti-sprint points argue with facts that maybe the top 4% of players actually care about. TTK, Map Elongation, Enemies running away and the need to chase, people not being punished for being out of position. Its all unnecessary to the average player. Halo 5 is fun. What Halo is not, however, is accomodating or welcoming to new players. Now more than ever. You need skill to play Halo. And the auto-aim and bullet magnetism of games like CoD have ruined that in the common gamer. People used to be better. Back when there was only Halo to play.
> >
> >
> > No. These are issues that only a small % can understand, analyze and articulate. These issues effect everyone though.
>
>
> Map elongation would be a real argument if maps werent constantly getting bigger and bigger.
>
> “Oh look, it takes longer to get from Base to Base on Truth than on Midship”
>
> yeah, it also takes longer to get from armory to armory in Escape from ARC. Maps get bigger. A bigger space isnt a bad thing for a skilled players. Longer spaces + desprint = much more room to kill sprinting soldiers who made poor tactical decision.
>
> TTK has stayed relatively consistent, so has base speed from Reach to 4 to 5.
>
> So what we have left in enemies being able to escape. Ignoring movement abilities, the biggest part of competitive Halo is teamwork, It takes teamwork to gain map control, teamwork to win, and teamshooting to get kills. Like I said, the elongation works both ways. More space to kill, more space to be killed. Sprint, get there faster. Run, have your gun ready.
>
> What you have failed to address, however, is how Halo is not a game for casual gamers. Whereas it used to be. Besides the REQ system, can you tell me any reason that someone would have a hard time adjusting to Halo 5 vs Halo 3 or Halo Reach?

How to ignore map elongation 101. TTK has gone down. Let’s stay consistent. Sprint offers no value when the time between X an y in truth and midship are identical, it’s only in 5, with sprint that we can’t shoot and move at the same time. It’s a wasted visual.

2472

> 2533274848599184;2470:
> > 2533274819567236;2469:
> > > 2533274848599184;2466:
> > > > 2533274819567236;2464:
> > > > > 2533274890584596;2459:
> > > > > And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.
> > >
> > >
> > > So what does that say for the population that does find it fun? There are a lot of them, look around the forums. Except most pro-sprinters treat them like scum.
> > >
> > > Its almost like you’re saying they shouldnt be having fun, because the distance between bases on Truth is longer than Midship. But that would be silly.
> >
> >
> > The population that thinks its fun probably couldn’t tell you why they like it. That being the case, when it’s removed and everything is adjusted accordingly, most wouldn’t have a problem. As I often say, sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in an alternative way. Accomplish it in that other way and those people won’t notice because the effect is the same, just done differently and with less drawbacks (which also benefits those who knew their were problems, but just didn’t know what they were). You see it all the time when arguing against moving sprint, “you’ll be moving like a turtle”. They have no idea how the game would be made without sprint and just assume they’d dislike it because of their misconceptions, when in reality the game would accommodate for the lack of sprint.
>
>
> Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.
>
> And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.

BMS in 2 and 3 are the exact same FOV has changed. Also fun is subjective. Let’s stay on point

2473

> 2533274848599184;2468:
> It became not simple to learn when games like CoD hit the market. That has as much to do with this as sprint does.
>
> I will say it, because its important. You cant offer immersion with a base speed increase. No matter how much you hate/dislike immersion, a combat instinct has merit in a combat game. Sprint is exactly that. Its called fight or flight for a reason.
>
> Anecdotal evidence be -Yoink!-, but id wager a large portion of Halo players have had friends pick up the game and ask them “Why cant I sprint?”. Its a pretty basic human trait, its in many other games, and gives people familiarity in a game where the spartan has energy shields, runs around with plasma weapons, and certains guns have multiple firing modes/cant shoot at all.
>
> Edit: Also, its not the effects we are arguing essentially. Its the connotation of them being negative. I dont see OP autos as a negative effect of sprint. I see it as “If i shoot someone with the SMG whilst standing right in front of them, it should probably do a bit better than this tiny pistol”. I dont see a longer or shorter TTK as a negative effect, especially because the change is so minimal. Likewise, elongation is not a “negative” effect of sprint. Maps get bigger all the times, and vehicles arent always available. With boosting, sliding, and sprinting, I can travel as fast as I ever have as a spartan. No it doesnt make the game any faster, but it makes the game more fun. Of course, a personal opinion,.

Modern day CoD didn’t make Halo harder to learn, it didn’t make jump, shoot, melee harder to learn. The devs are in complete control over what is put in their games and they decided to include as many mchanics as they could fit on the controller.

I’ll refer you to Doom for your immersion comment.

My mention of OP autos was in regards to the game being more forgiving to newcomers, not the sprint debate. Map elongation makes it take longer to get around when you’re not sprinting which has many implications for the pacing of most - if not all - gamestypes, it creates more deadzones, and forces more cover to be added for traversal over certain parts of the map (which slows the pace of fights and makes them last longer). And that’s just the issues with elongation off the top of my head.

2474

> 2533274808669104;2472:
> > 2533274848599184;2470:
> > > 2533274819567236;2469:
> > > > 2533274848599184;2466:
> > > > > 2533274819567236;2464:
> > > > > > 2533274890584596;2459:
> > > > > > And I would say that while the average player is not aware of these things, they are nonetheless impacted by them. Halo 5 in particular introduces a lot of complexity and stress at the expensive real depth. With people thrusting, sliding, thrust sliding all over the place. With ridiculous quick kills with automatics. With stretched out, cluttered maps filled with a million routes, windows, and sneakies. With the tiny motion tracker compromise between casual and competitive. These are all elements that make this game less of the simple fun as a casual game and worse as a competitive Halo game**. It’s not as if the top 4% of players are the only ones affected by design changes that fundamentally change map design and gameplay. The larger audience doesn’t need to be able to clearly articulate their issues with the game to have a problem with it.** Most of the people who dislike “modern” Halo probably haven’t stuck around long enough to continue these conversations, as evidenced by the drastically smaller install-base and even worse concurrent population of this game versus something like H3.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And that’s important to remember. Not everyone that has stopped enjoying Halo is well versed in it’s complexities. Many may not like the new direction the games have taken and know nothing more than, “it’s not fun”, not even aware of particularly why they don’t find it fun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So what does that say for the population that does find it fun? There are a lot of them, look around the forums. Except most pro-sprinters treat them like scum.
> > > >
> > > > Its almost like you’re saying they shouldnt be having fun, because the distance between bases on Truth is longer than Midship. But that would be silly.
> > >
> > >
> > > The population that thinks its fun probably couldn’t tell you why they like it. That being the case, when it’s removed and everything is adjusted accordingly, most wouldn’t have a problem. As I often say, sprint accomplishes nothing that can’t be done in an alternative way. Accomplish it in that other way and those people won’t notice because the effect is the same, just done differently and with less drawbacks (which also benefits those who knew their were problems, but just didn’t know what they were). You see it all the time when arguing against moving sprint, “you’ll be moving like a turtle”. They have no idea how the game would be made without sprint and just assume they’d dislike it because of their misconceptions, when in reality the game would accommodate for the lack of sprint.
> >
> >
> > Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.
> >
> > And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.
>
>
> BMS in 2 and 3 are the exact same FOV has changed. Also fun is subjective. Let’s stay on point

Hence why I said thought and the fun was an answer to the “The population that says its fun probably couldnt tell you why they like it”.

2475

> 2533274848599184;2470:
> Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.
>
> And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.

They’re the minority. They played for 9 years when sprint wasn’t in the games and enjoyed it and they’ll enjoy it should sprint be removed and the game made to be more fast paced like they hope it to be.

2476

> 2533274819567236;2473:
> > 2533274848599184;2468:
> > It became not simple to learn when games like CoD hit the market. That has as much to do with this as sprint does.
> >
> > I will say it, because its important. You cant offer immersion with a base speed increase. No matter how much you hate/dislike immersion, a combat instinct has merit in a combat game. Sprint is exactly that. Its called fight or flight for a reason.
> >
> > Anecdotal evidence be -Yoink!-, but id wager a large portion of Halo players have had friends pick up the game and ask them “Why cant I sprint?”. Its a pretty basic human trait, its in many other games, and gives people familiarity in a game where the spartan has energy shields, runs around with plasma weapons, and certains guns have multiple firing modes/cant shoot at all.
> >
> > Edit: Also, its not the effects we are arguing essentially. Its the connotation of them being negative. I dont see OP autos as a negative effect of sprint. I see it as “If i shoot someone with the SMG whilst standing right in front of them, it should probably do a bit better than this tiny pistol”. I dont see a longer or shorter TTK as a negative effect, especially because the change is so minimal. Likewise, elongation is not a “negative” effect of sprint. Maps get bigger all the times, and vehicles arent always available. With boosting, sliding, and sprinting, I can travel as fast as I ever have as a spartan. No it doesnt make the game any faster, but it makes the game more fun. Of course, a personal opinion,.
>
>
> Modern day CoD didn’t make Halo harder to learn, it didn’t make jump, shoot, melee harder to learn. The devs are in complete control over what is put in their games and they decided to include as many mchanics as they could fit on the controller.
>
> I’ll refer you to Doom for your immersion comment.
>
> My mention of OP autos was in regards to the game being more forgiving to newcomers, not the sprint debate. Map elongation makes it take longer to get around when you’re not sprinting which has many implications for the pacing of most - if not all - gamestypes, it creates more deadzones, and forces more cover to be added for traversal over certain parts of the map (which slows the pace of fights and makes them last longer). And that’s just the issues with elongation off the top of my head.

So deadzones and more cover, making fights last longer. Halo already has long fights. Why does making them even longer matter that much? How does teamshooting get involved in this? Regardless, sprinting itself is a decision. Sprint get there faster, or walk, gun ready. With all the movement speeds in this game, there are sightlines to most areas from wherever you are.

Modern day CoD made Halo into the complicated game. Before CoD. Halo was the easy game. Well only game. But I digress.

Thats great about Doom, however it doesnt have the popularity of Halo. Honestly, do you think immersion is not important in FPS shooters? Could you possibly tell me what drove so many people to suddenly jump to CoD when they went full modern?

2477

> 2533274819567236;2475:
> > 2533274848599184;2470:
> > Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.
> >
> > And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.
>
>
> They’re the minority. They played for 9 years when sprint wasn’t in the games and enjoyed it and they’ll enjoy it should sprint be removed and the game made to be more fast paced like they hope it to be.

The Halo 3 crowd or the Spartan super soldier crowd.

Look, Big Brother, Adam Sutler, whatever youd like to be called. Im not in the habit of telling people how they think. If someone says something is fun, i wont assume they dont know why it is fun. What I can say is that yes, relative to the map, Halo 5 is not faster than Halo 3. However, in regards to the Spartan, Halo 5 is miles faster. And thats the immersion coming back again.

2478

> 2533274848599184;2476:
> > 2533274819567236;2473:
> >
>
>
> So deadzones and more cover, making fights last longer. Halo already has long fights. Why does making them even longer matter that much? How does teamshooting get involved in this? Regardless, sprinting itself is a decision. Sprint get there faster, or walk, gun ready. With all the movement speeds in this game, there are sightlines to most areas from wherever you are.
>
> Modern day CoD made Halo into the complicated game. Before CoD. Halo was the easy game. Well only game. But I digress.
>
> Thats great about Doom, however it doesnt have the popularity of Halo. Honestly, do you think immersion is not important in FPS shooters? Could you possibly tell me what drove so many people to suddenly jump to CoD when they went full modern?

Longer firefights aren’t a good thing. If the average TTK (not the minimal TTK) is made longer then fights drag on and that slows the pace of the game.

Sprinting being a decision doesn’t make it ok. The maps are built for the sprint speed, so that inconsistancy can put you at a disadvantage. Some objective games are a good example of this. Need to capture the flag and time’s running out? Well, if you’re not sprinting, then you’re forcing your probability of success to become lower whereas with a single base speed, you’re already moving at the speed the map was built for and you’re not put at a disadvantage for no moving faster. There’s nothing to be gained by map elongation. It cancels out sprints purpose of faster traversal and causes a number of issues.

Modern CoD does not dictate Halos gameplay. The devs do.

Immersion always comes second to gameplay for anyone playing MP. If immersion comes always first, then they play campaign, just like they always did. Halo 3 was the most popualr of the series and it wasn’t all that immersive as far as MP goes.

2479

> 2533274848599184;2477:
> > 2533274819567236;2475:
> > > 2533274848599184;2470:
> > > Most people compare it to Halo 3. Clearly they thought they were moving slow.
> > >
> > > And what about those who find it fun because finally they can sprint? We’ve seen the topics. “I finally feel like a Spartan super soldier”.
> >
> >
> > They’re the minority. They played for 9 years when sprint wasn’t in the games and enjoyed it and they’ll enjoy it should sprint be removed and the game made to be more fast paced like they hope it to be.
>
>
> The Halo 3 crowd or the Spartan super soldier crowd.
>
> Look, Big Brother, Adam Sutler, whatever youd like to be called. Im not in the habit of telling people how they think. If someone says something is fun, i wont assume they dont know why it is fun. What I can say is that yes, relative to the map, Halo 5 is not faster than Halo 3. However, in regards to the Spartan, Halo 5 is miles faster. And thats the immersion coming back again.

The masses don’t know what they want, they have to be shown what they want. This is common knowledge. People said Halo 3 needed a cover system in order to keep up with the times. Those people didn’t know the purpose of a cover system or why it worked in certain games. Halo 3 released and surprise, no one seemed to care that it didn’t have a cover system.

2480

> 2533274819567236;2478:
> > 2533274848599184;2476:
> > > 2533274819567236;2473:
> > >
> >
> >
> > So deadzones and more cover, making fights last longer. Halo already has long fights. Why does making them even longer matter that much? How does teamshooting get involved in this? Regardless, sprinting itself is a decision. Sprint get there faster, or walk, gun ready. With all the movement speeds in this game, there are sightlines to most areas from wherever you are.
> >
> > Modern day CoD made Halo into the complicated game. Before CoD. Halo was the easy game. Well only game. But I digress.
> >
> > Thats great about Doom, however it doesnt have the popularity of Halo. Honestly, do you think immersion is not important in FPS shooters? Could you possibly tell me what drove so many people to suddenly jump to CoD when they went full modern?
>
>
> Longer firefights aren’t a good thing. If the average TTK (not the minimal TTK) is made longer then fights drag on and that slows the pace of the game.
>
> Sprinting being a decision doesn’t make it ok. The maps are built for the sprint speed, so that inconsistancy can put you at a disadvantage. Some objective games are a good example of this. Need to capture the flag and time’s running out? Well, if you’re not sprinting, then you’re forcing your probability of success to become lower whereas with a single base speed, you’re already moving at the speed the map was built for and you’re not put at a disadvantage for no moving faster. There’s nothing to be gained by map elongation. It cancels out sprints purpose of faster traversal and causes a number of issues.
>
> Modern CoD does not dictate Halos gameplay. The devs do.
>
> Immersion always comes second to gameplay for anyone playing MP. If immersion comes always first, then they play campaign, just like they always did. Halo 3 was the most popualr of the series and it wasn’t all that immersive as far as MP goes.

As of now, firefights that go on too long are due to one of three things. Poor aim/lack of skill, one v one with no actual combat initiated, just potshots between doors. Or 3, no use of teamwork, and damn, you couldnt kill that guy just about to go around a corner. Within the game, firefights are not too long. Halo still maintains its 30 seconds of fun, over and over again.

Time’s running out and you have the flag, pass it to a teammate, learn to flag juggle, or better yet. Look, if the map is designed for sprint, then the flag routes are designed for flag speed. There are always fastest flag routes, for every map. How about, times running out, you need to get the final kill, you sprint into position and snipe someone to win the game. Oh wait you have no sprint so you desperately bunny hop around and oh, time ran out. These anecdotal type instances dont really argue anything. Specific instances sprint can help, hence it being a tactical decision. Its like running into a crowded base with your BR out or your SMG out. One makes sense, but so often people dont do it. Regardless of common sense or not, there are many decisions to be made in this game, and when to sprint is one of them.

Modern CoD dictated Halos popularity. Popularity being tied with how much fun people have playing a game. How much fun people have playing a game tied with how good they are at it. I could link you to all the studies but i think you know how google works.

Halo 3 wasnt immersive at all. Cutscenes had badass Master Chief, then we went back to bunny hopping through maps. However, immersion has a place in gameplay, and most people would prefer if gameplay stayed consistent throughout an entire game. In Halo 5, sprint is both offensive and defensive minded.