The Spamming problem

Games Halo Wars Series
1

I play this game a lot, and I really love it. It does a lot right, but a lot wrong as well. One such instance is unit spamming. One of the main sources of my frustration is that the good strategies seem to require the least thought. Examples in the past being hero spam, Marine spam, tank spam, banshee spam, marine spam again, and now again with HB/Goliath spamming mixed in with some marauder/air spamming if that fails.

My main reason for getting so mad is that this is pretty mindless for a “strategy” game. Why should my army, one that incorporates infantray, vehicles, and air lose to one that just spammed whatever unit was seen as meta by my opponent? In game tips even encourage this losing stargegy. “Diverse armies are harder to counter”, just doesn’t hold up. The only way to really counter a spam army Is by building a large numbe of counters, but that’s shooting yourself in the foot as counters tend to be much more expensive than what they counter, especially in terms of power. Why should I have to waste power, which I use for upgrades and tech, when my opponent only uses supply which is gained in far greater abundance and isn’t needed for tech? I don’t get it. And then the real fun begins when, after you have your counter army, they make a spam army of whatever your counter unit doesnt counter, so that your super expensive counters an so whatever else you manage to make get blown up by yet another mindless, easy to produce spam.

With all that said, how does one dissincentivise this mindless play style? I’m scratching my head. Maybe introduce a mechanic that makes units of the same type weaker when you go past a certain number/pop of them? An individual unit pop cap? I really don’t know. And maybe I’m just bad, but it seem like that’s what the pros do as well, just spam all one unit with little to no variation. This just seems uninteresting, no?

2

It’s a very rare RTS that has no spam. Balance is very difficult, and even relatively balanced games often have metagames that revolve around spam.

I don’t see how it’s “mindless” though. As opposed to building two different production buildings and building a slew of different units, you’re spamming one unit. Regardless, you’re just pushing buttons on a controller in the end. Even if you’re only building one unit type, you can still easily lose if you’re not thinking and being “mindless.”

3

At least in C&C3 when the enemy spams, it’s stoppable. And it hurts their eco a lot more than it does in HW2.

4

> 2533274954420315;1:
> I play this game a lot, and I really love it. It does a lot right, but a lot wrong as well. One such instance is unit spamming. One of the main sources of my frustration is that the good strategies seem to require the least thought. Examples in the past being hero spam, Marine spam, tank spam, banshee spam, marine spam again, and now again with HB/Goliath spamming mixed in with some marauder/air spamming if that fails.
>
> My main reason for getting so mad is that this is pretty mindless for a “strategy” game. Why should my army, one that incorporates infantray, vehicles, and air lose to one that just spammed whatever unit was seen as meta by my opponent? In game tips even encourage this losing stargegy. “Diverse armies are harder to counter”, just doesn’t hold up. The only way to really counter a spam army Is by building a large numbe of counters, but that’s shooting yourself in the foot as counters tend to be much more expensive than what they counter, especially in terms of power. Why should I have to waste power, which I use for upgrades and tech, when my opponent only uses supply which is gained in far greater abundance and isn’t needed for tech? I don’t get it. And then the real fun begins when, after you have your counter army, they make a spam army of whatever your counter unit doesnt counter, so that your super expensive counters an so whatever else you manage to make get blown up by yet another mindless, easy to produce spam.
>
> With all that said, how does one dissincentivise this mindless play style? I’m scratching my head. Maybe introduce a mechanic that makes units of the same type weaker when you go past a certain number/pop of them? An individual unit pop cap? I really don’t know. And maybe I’m just bad, but it seem like that’s what the pros do as well, just spam all one unit with little to no variation. This just seems uninteresting, no?

First before this response I have to put this. I am in no way a pro and therefore have much to learn, that also being said nothing gives me the authority to say your opinion sucks and mine is better, so just take this with a grain of salt. Now with your regularly scheduled response.

While, yes, on paper it seems like this is a mindless strategy in which takes no skill. There is A LOT to look at that is hidden form the average eye. First is just knowledge. You can’t exactly spam what is good if you don’t know what is good. Sure, you could spam redline jackrabbits but that strategy died a long time ago and probably won’t work. So just knowing what is relevant anymore takes some time and investment. But second is micro and macro. Do you ever wonder how someone with 10 hornets beat your 7 wolverines? It’s because they are good at micro and just good at the game. Fun fact standing still and letting the missiles come to you isn’t a very good strategy. So micro-ing out of the way is a very good strategy and takes lots of work to master. And spamming units you HAVE to be able to do this well, or else you’ll take those missiles with gratitude and explosions. Second is leader powers. The person with better micro and better use of their leader powers wins. Say going up against an Atriox spamming banshee’s. He’d lose normally but if he uses dying breath and atriox’s bulwark, etc., then he’ll win every time going up against wolverines or anything really. Map control is also very crucial. If you have node control and can deny his army from reaching across the map you can shut it down. Also with some careful scouting the spamming units thing can be shut down in seconds. If you see various spamming grenadiers just build 5 or 6 snipers. Trust me, building a few counters is less of a cost then whatever they are using. And speaking of that that’s your next downfall. You say that building counters can really hurt you, which they can, but only if you train mass counters. Like the example earlier you need snipers to counter the grenadiers, but if you use to many then you not only are eating supplies but then your opponent can counter-rush with vehicles. You need to be very careful of what you do in these situations.

In conclusion I personally don’t think there needs to be a nerf to spamming units. While it’s frowned upon it IS a legitimate strategy. Complaining about people spamming units is like complaining about people who rush. It is a very cheap and not a very thoughtful thing on paper. But as a person who rushes in this game I can personally say that there is A LOT more to it than just," Durh, I’ll train marines and send them to attack his base. I’m so smert"

5

> 2533274830489835;2:
> It’s a very rare RTS that has no spam. Balance is very difficult, and even relatively balanced games often have metagames that revolve around spam.
>
> I don’t see how it’s “mindless” though. As opposed to building two different production buildings and building a slew of different units, you’re spamming one unit. Regardless, you’re just pushing buttons on a controller in the end. Even if you’re only building one unit type, you can still easily lose if you’re not thinking and being “mindless.”

I disagree. In most RTS’s, armies are comprised of a variety of units. Starcraft is a good example. Even Zerg rushes, arguably the most infamous strat made possible by spamming a cheap unit, are composed of at least three different kinds of units. In this game, it seems like those who keep making all banshees, marauders, hellbringers, grizzlies, etc have the best “strategies”.

and I say mindless because it requires so little thought. I could train a monkey to make two garages or two barracks and spam the same units from both, but having a complex, dynamic process by which one creates an army around what one’s opponent is doing without crippling yourself? That’s a strategy game, but that rarely happens in this one.

6

> 2535431243595189;4:
> > 2533274954420315;1:
> > I play this game a lot, and I really love it. It does a lot right, but a lot wrong as well. One such instance is unit spamming. One of the main sources of my frustration is that the good strategies seem to require the least thought. Examples in the past being hero spam, Marine spam, tank spam, banshee spam, marine spam again, and now again with HB/Goliath spamming mixed in with some marauder/air spamming if that fails.
> >
> > My main reason for getting so mad is that this is pretty mindless for a “strategy” game. Why should my army, one that incorporates infantray, vehicles, and air lose to one that just spammed whatever unit was seen as meta by my opponent? In game tips even encourage this losing stargegy. “Diverse armies are harder to counter”, just doesn’t hold up. The only way to really counter a spam army Is by building a large numbe of counters, but that’s shooting yourself in the foot as counters tend to be much more expensive than what they counter, especially in terms of power. Why should I have to waste power, which I use for upgrades and tech, when my opponent only uses supply which is gained in far greater abundance and isn’t needed for tech? I don’t get it. And then the real fun begins when, after you have your counter army, they make a spam army of whatever your counter unit doesnt counter, so that your super expensive counters an so whatever else you manage to make get blown up by yet another mindless, easy to produce spam.
> >
> > With all that said, how does one dissincentivise this mindless play style? I’m scratching my head. Maybe introduce a mechanic that makes units of the same type weaker when you go past a certain number/pop of them? An individual unit pop cap? I really don’t know. And maybe I’m just bad, but it seem like that’s what the pros do as well, just spam all one unit with little to no variation. This just seems uninteresting, no?
>
> First before this response I have to put this. I am in no way a pro and therefore have much to learn, that also being said nothing gives me the authority to say your opinion sucks and mine is better, so just take this with a grain of salt. Now with your regularly scheduled response.
>
> While, yes, on paper it seems like this is a mindless strategy in which takes no skill. There is A LOT to look at that is hidden form the average eye. First is just knowledge. You can’t exactly spam what is good if you don’t know what is good. Sure, you could spam redline jackrabbits but that strategy died a long time ago and probably won’t work. So just knowing what is relevant anymore takes some time and investment. But second is micro and macro. Do you ever wonder how someone with 10 hornets beat your 7 wolverines? It’s because they are good at micro and just good at the game. Fun fact standing still and letting the missiles come to you isn’t a very good strategy. So micro-ing out of the way is a very good strategy and takes lots of work to master. And spamming units you HAVE to be able to do this well, or else you’ll take those missiles with gratitude and explosions. Second is leader powers. The person with better micro and better use of their leader powers wins. Say going up against an Atriox spamming banshee’s. He’d lose normally but if he uses dying breath and atriox’s bulwark, etc., then he’ll win every time going up against wolverines or anything really. Map control is also very crucial. If you have node control and can deny his army from reaching across the map you can shut it down. Also with some careful scouting the spamming units thing can be shut down in seconds. If you see various spamming grenadiers just build 5 or 6 snipers. Trust me, building a few counters is less of a cost then whatever they are using. And speaking of that that’s your next downfall. You say that building counters can really hurt you, which they can, but only if you train mass counters. Like the example earlier you need snipers to counter the grenadiers, but if you use to many then you not only are eating supplies but then your opponent can counter-rush with vehicles. You need to be very careful of what you do in these situations.
>
> In conclusion I personally don’t think there needs to be a nerf to spamming units. While it’s frowned upon it IS a legitimate strategy. Complaining about people spamming units is like complaining about people who rush. It is a very cheap and not a very thoughtful thing on paper. But as a person who rushes in this game I can personally say that there is A LOT more to it than just," Durh, I’ll train marines and send them to attack his base. I’m so smert"

From what I gather, your argument on why it takes “skill” to spam meta units is just knowing the meta. But how? Any idiot can read patch notes and just spam what unit is buffed the most in that patch.

And while mass counters are a bad idea, there really isn’t a way to get around someone who just mindlessly spams one unit without making them. You can’t mix in other units with counters without losing to the thing you’re trying to counter in mass. I’m aware micro is important, as I’m pretty good at the game, but it’s not everything. 7 wolves should beat 10 hornets because rockets auto lock, btw. Micro isn’t as important in that instance. The problem is you had to pay a butt load of power and some supply to beat units that cost just supply. You have to give up your Econ to counter someone who didn’t, and that’s the core problem.

7

> 2533274818737568;3:
> At least in C&C3 when the enemy spams, it’s stoppable. And it hurts their eco a lot more than it does in HW2.

Exactly. And I do appreciate the simplistic nature of the halo wars RTS feel, but this is a drawback. C&C was way more fleshed out, and every unit, core or not, had strengths and weaknessss. While I do like the idea of making a generally good unit, the drawback is they become immensely spammable, especially when your opponent has to cripple their own economy to counter your army that didn’t put a dent in yours.

8

Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun

9

> 2533274859484857;8:
> Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun

Disagree entirely. Only have to get to tech two, then only make supply, plus whatever building you need for the unit one’s spamming. It ruins the strategy element entirely. And while it may be fun to use, it’s aggravating to play against.

10

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2533274954420315;9:
> > 2533274859484857;8:
> > Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun
>
> Disagree entirely. Only have to get to tech two, then only make supply, plus whatever building you need for the unit one’s spamming. It ruins the strategy element entirely. And while it may be fun to use, it’s aggravating to play against.

nah

11

> 2533274859484857;10:
> > 2533274954420315;9:
> > > 2533274859484857;8:
> > > Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun
> >
> > Disagree entirely. Only have to get to tech two, then only make supply, plus whatever building you need for the unit one’s spamming. It ruins the strategy element entirely. And while it may be fun to use, it’s aggravating to play against.
>
> nah

Well, that’s not helpful, so I can’t say anything helpful in return. It doesn’t take any thought or strategy to be clockwork.

12

> 2533274954420315;9:
> > 2533274859484857;8:
> > Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun
>
> Disagree entirely. Only have to get to tech two, then only make supply, plus whatever building you need for the unit one’s spamming. It ruins the strategy element entirely. And while it may be fun to use, it’s aggravating to play against.

there’s also deciding if its worth upgrading at the cost of temporarily not spamming as many units. Also resource gathering is very important for this too like power nodes

13

> 2533274859484857;12:
> > 2533274954420315;9:
> > > 2533274859484857;8:
> > > Spamming is go e, still a legit strategy and there’s still some skill in it if not a lot, like proper resource and base management to get the most out of spammae units. Plus it’s fun
> >
> > Disagree entirely. Only have to get to tech two, then only make supply, plus whatever building you need for the unit one’s spamming. It ruins the strategy element entirely. And while it may be fun to use, it’s aggravating to play against.
>
> there’s also deciding if its worth upgrading at the cost of temporarily not spamming as many units. Also resource gathering is very important for this too like power nodes

But that’s the thing, it’s not. Past tech two, power isn’t really needed in bulk, you’re only spamming units that cost supply, not power. And upgrading is the main reason why this style of play is so oppressive. You don’t have to stop pumping out units, you only need an extra unit building and you can upgrade while you spam with your other unit buildings. It’s also very easy to upgrade your units since, again, your units don’t cost power.

Meanwhile, your opponent can’t upgrade because counters cost more than 100 power each to make, with anti-air especially being absurdly expensive. Meanwhile, the spamming leader has map control because his spammable units are faster than counters, which tend to be much slower and in fewer number than the spammed units. It’s just plain stupid and unfair.