> The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
Which is exactly why it sucks at a competitive level since the DMR is the only weapon being used. Oh well. I can deal with bloom. It’d be better if they focus on taking jetpack out of Arena first. x_x
> The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
Which is exactly why it sucks at a competitive level since the DMR is the only weapon being used. Oh well. I can deal with bloom. It’d be better if they focus on taking jetpack out of Arena first. x_x
EDIT: woops! double post.
> > There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
> >
> > /end discussion
>
> Whatever dude…
>
> The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
>
> That’s the bottom line.
>
> Stop with the dead horse beatings and the lies.
>
> The DMR is fine
> Bloom is fine.
>
> “/thread.”
So your implying that Reach’s Weapon Sandbox would be the same if the DMR had no bloom? Of course their power would have to be amplified(non-power weapons anyways) to retain their advantage within their niches, and the most obvious way to do that would be to remove the bloom from the other weapons as well.
If that is the bottom line by the way, that is a incredibly horrible way to try to “balance”(I say this because no real balance came from this) the Halo weapon Sandbox when there are much better options available.
> There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
>
> /end discussion
YES! YES! Stick it too them. I could never say it better. Arena shooters DO NOT NEED THE BLOOM! That’s why it’s arena! Equal and balanced. Slow gameplay has no place in Halo! Ever!
It seems like nobody remembers the concept of variables. Blah.
> There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
>
> /end discussion
So am I to understand that you have a problem with the kill times, not bloom, correct? Even if you spam it as fast as you can, the kill times are still slightly longer than Halo 1/2/3.
Your issue isn’t with bloom.
A slight increase in the damage of all weapons seems to make the game much faster paced. I played Team Classic a few times and it felt like a good pace with the 110% damage (I believe anyways).
Oh and it only takes 5 shots to kill someone… If you’re shooting more than 6 then that’s a lack of skill. Unless they’re jetpacking/sprinting/evading… just normal strafing isn’t fast enough to make players miss that often unless they’re spamming like crazy.
Oh and Counter Strike had bloom as well… Not to say that it’s perfect for Halo or anything, but very skillfully based games CAN use this mechanic to widen the skill gap.
> Spamming is part of shooting and has very little to do with what you want rewarded, and that is 100% aim accuracy.
yes, spamming is a part of shooting. what i want is not just the person who shoots with 100% accuracy to win, its the person who OBSERVES the concept of bloom (mid range where pacing is optimal and spamming is foolish) to win out against the person making absolutely NO ATTEMPT to play the game as intended 100% of the time.
> You can’t tell me you understand bloom and then tell me it works perfectly on CoD, the Pistol and AR but is broken on the DMR and NR.
quote me where i said bloom works good on COD please, as i have never said this.
> You give me one good reason why I should believe you understand how bloom works when you cannot keep your terminologies straight and every video you have submitted as proof for an opinion I have dedunked.
what videos? what terminologies?
> AND with a K/D of over 2.0 the DMR on your part, you refuse to admit that you have done so by using strategic positions with tactical moves that involve using cover, teammates, weapon/AA/grenades -combos, and extra moves added into your strafing maneuvers because you learned long ago, strafing alone in the open won’t cut in Reach?
my KD with said weapon doesnt matter in the least. why? because i’ve ‘adapted’ to never try to fight people in 1v1 battles because even if i shoot better they can still beat me. i dont like dying even one time, so i avoid 1v1 battles like the plague. in halos 1, 2, AND 3 if i get the advantage in shooting i can just continue to shoot well and win. in halo reach if i get the advantage in shooting they can spam to victory some of the time.
> Story time:
> I agree the better shooter should win the encounter. Your reasoning that the better aimmer in Reach should win the encounter over a spammer does not equate into the better shooter winning. The better shooter knows their weapon. They know when they can risk the spam and when they should pace it down.
see, the problem is, ‘knowing your weapon’ in halo reach is basically knowing that even if you shoot flawlessly with an amazing cadence, the kid mashing his R trigger can still beat you even tho its not even remotely optimal to shoot like that (mid range). there is no ‘risking the spam’, at close range spamming is optimal, so you spam if you are playing optimally. after you land 4 shots, like FB Ninja stated, its a matter of preference to get the headshot or simply keep spamming the body because it doesnt really make much of a difference.
also, not once have i said the person with better ‘aim’ should win the encounter over a spammer, it has always been the person who SHOOTS better.
shooting =/= aiming. to shoot better you do have to aim better, but its more than that with bloom. its also observing bloom and possibly even using a cadence for a more optimal rate of fire slightly faster than the 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 cadence.
0% of the time will spamming at mid range be ‘optimal’ or ‘shooting better’. it will always be stupid to do so, so it should never win.
do you understand what i mean by saying that bloom is currently contradictory? bloom throttles players rate of fire depending on the situation. at mid range, however, spamming will NEVER be optimal, so its completely contradictory for the game to WANT people to PACE their shots, but also REWARD people who do not (even if its once out of one hundred times).
> And the better shooter will always die once in awhile. That has happened ever since Halo: CE, heck it happens in any remotely balanced sandbox.
i have never disputed this. what i will dispute is that the better shooter would not die to the person shooting technically worse even REMOTELY CLOSE to as much as it happens in halo reach. this ‘problem’ is compounded at close range, where strafing and shooting prowess are all but thrown out the window in favor of ‘i hope i get more lucky than you with my spam shots’. the game literally feels exponentially more sloppy in 1v1 DMR battles the closer you get to another person.
> After all, if we take your belief that the better shooter should win, period, to its fullest competitive extreme, then how come there are no “perfect” MLG players? How did Believe the Hype defeat Classic for the championships in 2009? Because games are not about the absolutes, they are about the variables, the what cans. I game because I want to defeat the odds, I do not conform to them. If order is to rule over chaos, it should be by my actions, not the makers design.
yet again you make it all but clear you didnt understand what im talking about.
im talking about ONE encounter with 2 people, 2 DMRs, and the floor. the person who shoots better in this situation should win 100% of the time. im not talking about other situations / encounters because first and foremost the gun should work AS INTENDED with as FEW FACTORS as possible. the factors in shooting are 2 players, their aim, their cadence, and their strafing. these are the bare minimum when it comes to ‘fewest factors’. if the game doesnt work at this fundamental level, its completely illogical to add more things in hopes of somehow getting around the inherent ‘brokenness’ or ‘illogical outcomes’ or ‘contradictory mechanics’ that the DMR has.
> What is best is we have a system that prevents absolutes as much as it can or we are not playing a game. Games aren’t fun because we confirm the absolute, they’re fun because the %'s can be partially predicted and the ones that predict consistent are the “skilled.”
this is an opinion that will not be shared by anyone who is a power gamer. the % chance for someone shooting worse to win against someone shooting better should be a static 0%.
> [baseball]
a better example of how bloom is in halo would be a pitcher pitching a ball, then having a 10% chance of the ball (before it gets hit by the batter) to instantly fly out of the park for a home run. thats the DMR in halo reach.
would baseball be better if every time someone pitched a ball the umpire rolled a dice and on a 1 he would give a home run to the batter? would the fans like this change? would the batters like this change? would the pitcher like this change?
giving the person who shoots worse a chance to win against the person who shoots better, in a 1v1 battle with the bare minimum number of factors (2 DMRs, 2 players, the floor, and strafing) is asinine.
> > There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
> >
> > /end discussion
>
> Whatever dude…
>
> The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
>
> That’s the bottom line.
>
> Stop with the dead horse beatings and the lies.
>
> The DMR is fine
> Bloom is fine.
>
> “/thread.”
desktop im quite sure if bloom was implemented PROPERLY (looking at reach DMR as the worst possible example of properly implemented bloom), it would have potential.
im talking about bloom being implemented (for the DMR / NR) so spamming is ALWAYS terrible. but its more than that. spamming should not only be terrible, it should NEVER EVER win against someone trying to pace their shots (or pace with a cadence like 1, 2, pause, 1, 2, pause, 1, 2 pause).
it doesnt have to slow down the kill times. a number of things could be tweaked to make the kill times faster (rate of fire, bloom algorithm, damage per bullet, etc.).
and guywiired, you have no idea what you are taking about. sorry, but its true.
if the DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used, why are almost none of the weapons used when you have a DMR at higher levels of play (not MLG, where the sandbox is limited)?
the answer is because the DMR is already straight up either strictly better, or BARELY worse when you enter a specific guns ‘niched range’. AR might be better at ‘lets hug it out’ range, but the DMR is infinitely more versatile, especially when you have a grenade to nade then headshot the AR user.
the only thing we (or most people arguing against bloom, or against blooms implementation) have a problem with is how the person who shoots worse can win against the person who shoots better.
at mid range, spamming is not optimal, pacing is. if you pace your shots with good accuracy you will win more than 50% of the time against someone who spams his shots, even if you arent using the optimal cadence.
the thing is, spamming will still win against someone who is pacing their shots. what this means is, 1 person plays the game as intended, and will die to the person neglecting to play the game as intended some of the time. this is the biggest gaming contradiction halo has ever seen i’d say.
so why should the person who shoots worse beat the person who shoots better guywiired? or are you just here to troll?
> my KD with said weapon doesnt matter in the least. why? because i’ve ‘adapted’ to never try to fight people in 1v1 battles because even if i shoot better they can still beat me. i dont like dying even one time, so i avoid 1v1 battles like the plague. in halos 1, 2, AND 3 if i get the advantage in shooting i can just continue to shoot well and win. in halo reach if i get the advantage in shooting they can spam to victory some of the time.
Can I get an Eureka?
Can’t claim Halo is a team based game and then penalize it because its designed to be team based.
The rest is covered ground we’ve just spiraled back into, but I will highlight this one
> giving the person who shoots worse a chance to win against the person who shoots better, in a 1v1 battle with the bare minimum number of factors (2 DMRs, 2 players, the floor, and strafing) is asinine.
What a crappy map to play on. And if Halo MUST be played by 2 players, 2 precision weapons, 1 floor and only strafing to mess up an opponent’s aim to determine a player’s skill, then do not claim you want a deep and nuanced Halo. DO NOT.
I like to think I pace my shots pretty well. Shame I get robbed by them either running away because I can’t put accurate shots on them fast enough or they just spam the hell out of their gun.
I do want to play Halo 2/3 again before I call for a return of the BR.
> > > There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
> > >
> > > /end discussion
> >
> > Whatever dude…
> >
> > The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
> >
> > That’s the bottom line.
> >
> > Stop with the dead horse beatings and the lies.
> >
> > The DMR is fine
> > Bloom is fine.
> >
> > “/thread.”
>
> desktop im quite sure if bloom was implemented PROPERLY (looking at reach DMR as the worst possible example of properly implemented bloom), it would have potential.
>
> im talking about bloom being implemented (for the DMR / NR) so spamming is ALWAYS terrible. but its more than that. spamming should not only be terrible, it should NEVER EVER win against someone trying to pace their shots (or pace with a cadence like 1, 2, pause, 1, 2, pause, 1, 2 pause).
>
> it doesnt have to slow down the kill times. a number of things could be tweaked to make the kill times faster (rate of fire, bloom algorithm, damage per bullet, etc.).
Yes, it could but the negatives heavily outweigh the positives and people are forgetting that the utility weapon will be used in all ranges so lucky outcomes CANNOT happen and thus spamming can never be effective.
The true crime of Reach Bloom is that the people that aspire to learn it, devote their time to making their pace of fire an art, lose to those who make no such aspiration.Which begs the question, why bother learning how to be a bloom artist if the payoff is losing to someone who could care less about how it was designed.Bloom should’ve been; fire in perfect cadence every time or NEVER score a hit. EVER. Alas, its so rewarding of spam, that it makes the people who try to understand the mechanic think, “Why am I bothering to perfect something when I can still lose being perfect.”. Which leads to empathy. Which leads to taking the game out of the machine.
Throw bloom into the mix with AAs, 5 shot kills, no more damage bleed, and you have a confusing weapon that can’t compete in a rewarding way at its intended range, and you’ve lost your game. You’ve lost Halo. Bloom has deeply broken the Halo experience. I want everyone to know that.
Bloom has broken Halo, philisophically. How unnecessary it is for a game with a regenerating shield mechanic. Shields meant Halo could have perfectly accurate weapons. That’s the beauty of the shield mechanic. It enhanced the shooting mechanic. And it was thrown away, for nothing.I wish more thought was given to the damage bloom would do to the core experience. And for what? Puzzling.
> > giving the person who shoots worse a chance to win against the person who shoots better, in a 1v1 battle with the bare minimum number of factors (2 DMRs, 2 players, the floor, and strafing) is asinine.
>
> What a crappy map to play on. And if Halo MUST be played by 2 players, 2 precision weapons, 1 floor and only strafing to mess up an opponent’s aim to determine a player’s skill, then do not claim you want a deep and nuanced Halo. DO NOT.
I don’t know were you serious or was that a joke, but let’s assume you’re serious.
That doesn’t mean Halo must be played with that kind of conditions, but those conditions happen, yesterday I had at least ten encounters that were like that. Of course that’s not all we want there to be in Halo, how ignorant would you need to be to think that? Of course there are other conditions, but that was just an example of the barest thinkable condition.
By being the barest condition it can be used to show is the situation won by luck or skill. For example in prior games there would have been no luck involved in this situation, the better player would have won. Again in Halo Reach, that encounter is just a matter of luck.
Of course that’s still not a normal gameplay condition, but in normal conditions you have those 1v1 situations. If the better player loses the situation, you can’t blame bad team work because a good player should be able to win a 1v1 situation without help from their teammates. This is just common sense, one of the most basic concepts of FPS is that a good player should be able to go 1v1 against a worse player without fear of losing, the player shouldn’t need help from their teammates with only one opponent, that’s just bad gameplay design.
> > > giving the person who shoots worse a chance to win against the person who shoots better, in a 1v1 battle with the bare minimum number of factors (2 DMRs, 2 players, the floor, and strafing) is asinine.
> >
> > What a crappy map to play on. And if Halo MUST be played by 2 players, 2 precision weapons, 1 floor and only strafing to mess up an opponent’s aim to determine a player’s skill, then do not claim you want a deep and nuanced Halo. DO NOT.
>
> I don’t know were you serious or was that a joke, but let’s assume you’re serious.
>
> That doesn’t mean Halo must be played with that kind of conditions, but those conditions happen, yesterday I had at least ten encounters that were like that. Of course that’s not all we want there to be in Halo, how ignorant would you need to be to think that? Of course there are other conditions, but that was just an example of the barest thinkable condition.
>
> By being the barest condition it can be used to show is the situation won by luck or skill. For example in prior games there would have been no luck involved in this situation, the better player would have won. Again in Halo Reach, that encounter is just a matter of luck.
>
> Of course that’s still not a normal gameplay condition, but in normal conditions you have those 1v1 situations. If the better player loses the situation, you can’t blame bad team work because a good player should be able to win a 1v1 situation without help from their teammates. This is just common sense, one of the most basic concepts of FPS is that a good player should be able to go 1v1 against a worse player without fear of losing, the player shouldn’t need help from their teammates with only one opponent, that’s just bad gameplay design.
And you want to debate “better player” tactics and reduce it to the 2nd most basic firefight that can happen?
The most basic is just standing there trading shots 1 for 1. In any previous Halo, if both players shoot at the same time, both players die at the same time (unless host advantage says nooo and that’s a random). If 1 player shoots first, if they don’t miss, they win. How does a player miss?
The second most basic firefight possible, the strafe and gun. Yes this is sarcasm, can you feel the player skill escalating now that we’ve upgraded to 2 players shooting at each other and moving? Now, what if both players have perfect aim and both shoot at the same time using Halo: CE or 2’s aim-assists, both players die (barring host/connections) and the only way to win is to some how throw in another variable, the jump. (The Halo3 BR spread was an attempt to deter this basic fight at mid-range and beyond)
I’d continue but now to my point, bloom says “hey, don’t do that.” to the most basic of firefights. It is very silly to either simply stand or simply strafe to avoid being shot at. If your ROF determines your precision, you should know you shouldn’t engage in basic firefights.
You know people keeping -Yoinking!- about the same things but they forget they can be modified with the TU. No game is perfect things just need to be tweaked to make them better. Such as double beat down that be fixed with just a little re-coding. Nothing is beyond repair people just need something to -Yoink- about it seems like. Have of these arguments that I keep reading seem to forget 343 can update the game once they fully get it. It was like this when H3 came out.
> Can’t claim Halo is a team based game and then penalize it because its designed to be team based.
every halo has been a team based game. having an inherent random factor in bloom, then stating its ‘ok because if you 2v1 it doesnt matter’ is asinine, illogical, and laughable.
if its a 2v2, and you and your ally are pacing because its mid range and thats optimal, whilst the enemy players do nothing but full-auto spam… and they end up winning, is that ok because you could have a third teammate helping you?
then, max the players to a 4v4 battle where 1 team is spamming whilst the other is pacing (at mid range where pacing is optimal).
why should 4 people spamming be able to beat 4 people pacing if all of the shots are fired at mid range, with no outside factors like grenades, terrain, cover, AA’s, etc.?
> What a crappy map to play on. And if Halo MUST be played by 2 players, 2 precision weapons, 1 floor and only strafing to mess up an opponent’s aim to determine a player’s skill, then do not claim you want a deep and nuanced Halo. DO NOT.
i never implied that this was the map that players were playing on. my point was if you take everything away except for 2 players shooting each other with the same weapon (at any range) the victor should go to the person who SHOOTS BETTER, not the person who SHOOTS WORSE.
why should the person shooting worse win against the person shooting better even once out of 100 times reaper?
how about this question: who should win, the person shooting better in a 1v1 DMR-only battle (with the floor, 2 people, and 2 DMRs only), or the person shooting worse?
is it LOGICAL for the person shooting better to win against the person shooting worse in this example? NOPE.
is it INTUITIVE for the person shooting better to win against the person shooting worse in this example? NOPE.
lastly, if bloom isnt broken, WHY IS 343 FIXING IT?
> I don’t know were you serious or was that a joke, but let’s assume you’re serious.
>
> That doesn’t mean Halo must be played with that kind of conditions, but those conditions happen, yesterday I had at least ten encounters that were like that. Of course that’s not all we want there to be in Halo, how ignorant would you need to be to think that? Of course there are other conditions, but that was just an example of the barest thinkable condition.
>
> By being the barest condition it can be used to show is the situation won by luck or skill. For example in prior games there would have been no luck involved in this situation, the better player would have won. Again in Halo Reach, that encounter is just a matter of luck.
>
> Of course that’s still not a normal gameplay condition, but in normal conditions you have those 1v1 situations. If the better player loses the situation, you can’t blame bad team work because a good player should be able to win a 1v1 situation without help from their teammates. This is just common sense, one of the most basic concepts of FPS is that a good player should be able to go 1v1 against a worse player without fear of losing, the player shouldn’t need help from their teammates with only one opponent, that’s just bad gameplay design.
i completely agree. i edited a little bit, i think this is the point you were trying to get across by removing ‘better player’ and replacing it with ‘person who shoots better’:
Of course that’s still not a normal gameplay condition, but in normal conditions you have those 1v1 situations. If the [person who shoots better] loses the situation, you can’t blame bad team work because [the person who shoots better] should be able to win a 1v1 situation without help from their teammates. This is just common sense, one of the most basic concepts of FPS is that [the person who shoots better] should be able to go 1v1 against [the person who shoots worse] without fear of losing, the player shouldn’t need help from their teammates with only one opponent, that’s just bad gameplay design.
>
Thank you for your support in this thread, you explained everything just fine.
The more skilled players always win >.> Except in Halo: Lag … I mean Halo: Reach … Where the person with better internet wins
> So your implying that Reach’s Weapon Sandbox would be the same if the DMR had no bloom? Of course their power would have to be amplified(non-power weapons anyways) to retain their advantage within their niches, and the most obvious way to do that would be to remove the bloom from the other weapons as well.
>
> If that is the bottom line by the way, that is a incredibly horrible way to try to “balance”(I say this because no real balance came from this) the Halo weapon Sandbox when there are much better options available.
No, I’m not implying that at all.
How in the world did you come to that conclusion? Of course if the DMR did NOT have bloom the entire sandbox would have to be reworked!
Question#1
You really think you have better options to balance the entire sandbox?
Question#2
Do you really think a year later would be a good time to post a TU which re-balances the ENTIRE sandbox?
You guys are a bit unrealistic.
> > The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
>
> Which is exactly why it sucks at a competitive level since the DMR is the only weapon being used. Oh well. I can deal with bloom. It’d be better if they focus on taking jetpack out of Arena first. x_x
wha?
Jet Packs =/= Weapon Bloom
I think you’re a little confused on the issues we’re discussing here.
And the DMR isn’t the only weapon used at the competitive level, but it is a starting weapon for most competitive play so you’re going to see a lot.
Your misunderstanding is understood.
> so why should the person who shoots worse beat the person who shoots better guywiired? or are you just here to troll?
You’re going to ask me that in every thread.
And in every thread I answer you: The better shooter ALWAYS wins.
Then you disappear from the thread for days.
Looks to me like you’re the one trollin.