Go the MLG forums and say DMR reticle bloom is fine, and you will get laughed out of the forums. Bloom creates uncecessary randomness and limits the player, there is literally no good argument for bloom in a game like Halo with long kill times. We dont need bloom on weapons that take usually 6-9 shots to kill anyways against a strafing opponent it makes no since.
fail
> > > spamming shouldnt win 50%, it shouldnt win 20%, it shouldnt win 5%, nor should it win 1%.
> >
> > For the Pistol that is correct. For the DMR or NR, that is incorrect. Work with it.
>
> Care to explain? Why should luck win in any 1v1 DMR situation? It is completely irrational to say that in DMR and NR 1v1 situations luck should be a factor while in reality, it shouldn’t be a factor in any possible 1v1 situation.
>
> Spamming should never win in any situation as it requires no skill, unlike pacing your shots that rquires skill, but still doesn’t win in all stiuations
If all you’re doing is standing still and firing at each other, damn straight nothing else is involved but luck.
The luck factor is already greatly reduced from the the Pistol. You get more range, more precision, more ammo but at the cost of your rate of fire. Damage stays the same.
But hey, lets not make a test where a player spams a scoped DMR at the head for 100% hit and kill ratios at short range and about 75% at midrange, we’ll just complain that no scoping and spamming is 50-50 all the time. That way the evidence will be completely supportive to the agreement that the DMR is one of the most fair weapons available.
You can’t get fairer odds than 50-50. But as a gamer, we sure as hell can stack them.
> > Sorry. The fact is people want the game to be more fast paced. The bloom just cuts off the line of good gameplay vs bad. It should have nothing to do with bloom but with who can aim better. Every Halo was that. Reach is just too damn slow and people don’t want it that way.
>
> I have no idea who you’re directing your posts at, use the Quote button.
>
> And what video were you talking about before? I haven’t seen one in this thread that actually shows bloom as a big problem yet.
I ment to quote but replied. Here is the video where the bloom had a big factor on the best strafer in Halo IMO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRVYWT364VM. Very very good proof. The guy cant aim for his life yet he gets the kill.
> Go the MLG forums and say DMR reticle bloom is fine, and you will get laughed out of the forums. Bloom creates uncecessary randomness and limits the player, there is literally no good argument for bloom in a game like Halo with long kill times. We dont need bloom on weapons that take usually 6-9 shots to kill anyways against a strafing opponent it makes no since.
I don’t think a single person in this thread has said it is completely fine… That’s not the point.
It’s just really hard to take someone’s point seriously when the “concrete evidence/facts” they’re showing are agreeing with the exact opposite point they’re trying to make (Pro-bloom instead of Anti-bloom).
The DMR’s bloom DEFINITELY needs tweaked, there is literally 0 doubts about that. I don’t think a single person is 100% happy with it.
Fast kill times don’t equal skill… But I think the Classic Playlists will be bringing faster kill times, along with current playlists having instant kills (Team Snipers, SWAT) or much quicker kill times (Team Classic).
> I ment to quote but replied. Here is the video where the bloom had a big factor on the best strafer in Halo IMO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRVYWT364VM. Very very good proof. The guy cant aim for his life yet he gets the kill.
A much better video.
It’s not concrete (He missed the fifth headshot and waited a little too long between trigger pulls), but it definitely shows a need for bloom to be tweaked to expand it even more when the player spamming goes over 3 spammed shots. Like it shouldn’t even be close, ala the Pistol’s bloom.
See, now we’re making progress!
Also, here’s a little video [(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzi7RmBO1ng)]showing that bloom works against beating spammers]([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzi7RmBO1ng). These types of situations need to be MUCH more common.
Edit: The video is being very difficult and won’t link… I think my Chrome browser is screwing with it.
Just go to Youtube and type in Halo: Reach Saddest Out DMR Ever.
> > I ment to quote but replied. Here is the video where the bloom had a big factor on the best strafer in Halo IMO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRVYWT364VM. Very very good proof. The guy cant aim for his life yet he gets the kill.
>
> A much better video.
>
> It’s not concrete (He missed the fifth headshot and waited a little too long between trigger pulls), but it definitely shows a need for bloom to be tweaked to expand it even more when the player spamming goes over 3 spammed shots. Like it shouldn’t even be close, ala the Pistol’s bloom.
>
> See, now we’re making progress!
>
> Also, here’s a little video showing that bloom works against beating spammers. These types of situations need to be MUCH more common.
>
> Edit: The video is being very difficult and won’t link… I think my Chrome browser is screwing with it.
>
> Just go to Youtube and type in Halo: Reach Saddest Out DMR Ever.
That’s the beta though. Honestly the DMR was not that bad on the beta but I guess bungie was not happy with it. That was a fast firefight yet the bloom didnt do much. IDK what it is but the DMR is not the same as the beta.
I will agree I wouldn’t mind changes of my own. I’d take smaller bloom handicaps and faster rates of fire across the basic weapons board. Not a removal of it but a tightening of it. I prevents overspam but lets me move around more lonesome like.
But that is besides the point of Reach’s system not rewarding skill. 
> That’s the beta though. Honestly the DMR was not that bad on the beta but I guess bungie was not happy with it. That was a fast firefight yet the bloom didnt do much. IDK what it is but the DMR is not the same as the beta.
Recoil was removed and that’s the only change. The reason bloom didn’t seem so bad is because you already paced your shots according to recoil reset.
> We dont need bloom on weapons that take usually 6-9 shots to kill anyways against a strafing opponent it makes no since.
And yet will kill in 5-shots even if the player is strafing because the aim-assist is equal to Halo3’s BR when the DMR is fully rested. (video is on the Halo3 BR bullet-magnetism effects only and in short ranges or closer)
> That’s the beta though. Honestly the DMR was not that bad on the beta but I guess bungie was not happy with it. That was a fast firefight yet the bloom didnt do much. IDK what it is but the DMR is not the same as the beta.
It lost its recoil effect and I believe the bloom was tightened up just a TINY bit…
Here’s an actual video showing pacing dominating 2 spammers… I’m not even going to try and link it though. Only Internet Explorer works well with this website for me so.
> > That’s the beta though. Honestly the DMR was not that bad on the beta but I guess bungie was not happy with it. That was a fast firefight yet the bloom didnt do much. IDK what it is but the DMR is not the same as the beta.
>
> It lost its recoil effect and I believe the bloom was tightened up just a TINY bit…
>
> Here’s an actual video showing pacing dominating 2 spammers… I’m not even going to try and link it though. Only Internet Explorer works well with this website for me so.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFhB1RXnq2w&NR=1
See! 
The player used the ramp to take a bullet while they let the DMR tighten to get a perfect shot. That’s part of how you don’t get killed by a spammer.
Did you also notice how the first Red thought they were strafing but really just walking in and out of a pacing DMR’s line of sight? No need to drag your reticle to track your BR bullet spread on your enemy don’t ya know?
> Sorry. The fact is people want the game to be more fast paced. The bloom just cuts off the line of good gameplay vs bad. It should have nothing to do with bloom but with who can aim better. Every Halo was that. Reach is just too damn slow and people don’t want it that way. That’s why they spam. Focusing on one guy for 3 seconds is just ridiculous. I remeber when Halo focused on good knowledge of map geometry, team work, and knowing how to evade an attack without stupid AA’s. When Halo was an ARENA SHOOTER.
QFT
I hope that Halo 4 becomes more like Halo and less like Reach.
> > who is effected more by strafing?
> >
> > the kid aiming with a small reticule, or the kid aiming with a watermelon?
> >
> > the answer is obvious. the kid aiming with a small reticule will be more ‘negatively effected’ by strafing than the person aiming with a watermelon because the player speed in reach is so EMBARRASSINGLY SLOW strafing has little to no effect.
> >
> > strafing is a bad example of a way to make the person who is ghasp ACTUALLY OBSERVING THE MECHANIC win MORE (not always) against the person making NO ATTEMPT to observe the mechanic.
>
> The one with the least amount of aim-assist.
> By keeping my aim-assist at its maximum, I am by default firing a watermelon sized bullet because I will not miss. When the reticle is at rest and red, if any part of the reticle touches the enemy, it’s a hit.
> If I am spamming, my aim-assist is at its lowest and I am shooting through a hole the size of a watermelon but with a bullet the size of a human eye.
> If the reticle is blue, things are completely different. And I would take the small reticle over the watermelon reticle any battle if the shots are going to land somewhere inside.
>
>
>
> > spamming shouldnt win 50%, it shouldnt win 20%, it shouldnt win 5%, nor should it win 1%.
>
> For the Pistol that is correct. For the DMR or NR, that is incorrect. Work with it.
you missed the point.
if you are pacing your shots, and i strafe, you will probably miss some of your shots because your reticule wont be on target 100% of the time.
when you are spamming your shots, and i strafe, my strafe will never (or very rarely) make me leave the circle in which the bullets will land (aim assist or not).
im talking about mid range btw, not red reticule. when you are close BOTH people will be spamming if they are playing optimally, meaning the person who wins is the person who lands more bullets (the person who gets more lucky with their spamming). going for the headshot is optimal i’d say, but if you just continue spamming its about the same result lol.
heres a quote from ninja of final boss in a Sniper / DMR tips video. DMR tips start at 5:07, the thing im quoting is at 6:08:
“[talking about spamming at close range] after that, when they are 1 shot, its pretty much personal preference how you like to kill them, if you want to just keep spamming their body and wait until they die, or wait until your bloom fully resets and then shooting them in the head”.
so basically, at long range bloom does its job with the DMR. at mid range bloom is a contradictory concept in its implementation, encouraging people to pace their shots, whilst also rewarding people who do not. at close range bloom makes sense (shoot faster at close range), but it just adds a MASSIVE detriment to the skill gap because aiming is no longer important, nor is strafing, its just a matter of mashing your R trigger with your watermelon on target then lucking out more than the other person.
it literally could not make any less sense for the person shooting technically worse to win over the person shooting technically better. i dont give a -Yoink- what gun you are talking about. they should all function as
SHOOT BETTER -> WIN ENCOUNTER when you take out all outside factors except for the ground, the 2 guns, and the 2 players.
case in point, if it was either logical, intuitive, properly implemented, or optimal for it to function as
SHOOT BETTER -> WIN ENCOUNTER (unless someone is spamming, then god knows who will win)
you would be able to give me even 1 reason why its better for the person who shoots technically worse to win against the person who shoots technically better.
but you cannot, because it isnt logical, its not intuitive, its not properly implemented, and it certainly isnt optimal. or can you?
> > Sorry. The fact is people want the game to be more fast paced. The bloom just cuts off the line of good gameplay vs bad. It should have nothing to do with bloom but with who can aim better. Every Halo was that. Reach is just too damn slow and people don’t want it that way. That’s why they spam. Focusing on one guy for 3 seconds is just ridiculous. I remeber when Halo focused on good knowledge of map geometry, team work, and knowing how to evade an attack without stupid AA’s. When Halo was an ARENA SHOOTER.
>
> QFT
>
> I hope that Halo 4 becomes more like Halo and less like Reach.
QFTx2
Halo 4 needs to return to the roots of Halo.
> SHOOT BETTER -> WIN ENCOUNTER (unless someone is spamming, then god knows who will win)
>
> you would be able to give me even 1 reason why its better for the person who shoots technically worse to win against the person who shoots technically better.
>
> but you cannot, because it isnt logical, its not intuitive, its not properly implemented, and it certainly isnt optimal. or can you?.
Spamming is part of shooting and has very little to do with what you want rewarded, and that is 100% aim accuracy.
You can’t tell me you understand bloom and then tell me it works perfectly on CoD, the Pistol and AR but is broken on the DMR and NR.
You give me one good reason why I should believe you understand how bloom works when you cannot keep your terminologies straight and every video you have submitted as proof for an opinion I have dedunked. AND with a K/D of over 2.0 the DMR on your part, you refuse to admit that you have done so by using strategic positions with tactical moves that involve using cover, teammates, weapon/AA/grenades -combos, and extra moves added into your strafing maneuvers because you learned long ago, strafing alone in the open won’t cut in Reach?
Story time:
I agree the better shooter should win the encounter. Your reasoning that the better aimmer in Reach should win the encounter over a spammer does not equate into the better shooter winning. The better shooter knows their weapon. They know when they can risk the spam and when they should pace it down. And the better shooter will always die once in awhile. That has happened ever since Halo: CE, heck it happens in any remotely balanced sandbox.
After all, if we take your belief that the better shooter should win, period, to its fullest competitive extreme, then how come there are no “perfect” MLG players? How did Believe the Hype defeat Classic for the championships in 2009? Because games are not about the absolutes, they are about the variables, the what cans. I game because I want to defeat the odds, I do not conform to them. If order is to rule over chaos, it should be by my actions, not the makers design.
What is best is we have a system that prevents absolutes as much as it can or we are not playing a game. Games aren’t fun because we confirm the absolute, they’re fun because the %'s can be partially predicted and the ones that predict consistent are the “skilled.”
Now as much as we love to watch our teams dominate the competition, it is only great to do so when the opponent is actually competition. But baseball, it being one of the few sports where you can stack a team for near 100% reliable results, it’s not very team orientated. Synergy like in Hockey, Football or Basketball is not required.
Back to the variables, the Pitcher gets to throw different types of pitches at the batters. That right there is a random variable and pretty much the only one that will allow an underdog team to beat a completely stacked team because it is a random variable (1% isn’t much of chance).
Ahhhh but Hockey or Basketball… Like come on, if it really was about personal player-skill and not teammate synergy, then why don’t the NY Rangers win the cup more often? Because hockey isn’t just about personal skill, it’s about using your skills while constantly moving in a constantly changing battleground. I am of course talking about situational awareness.
Gretzky isn’t the Great One Lone Wolf Player, Gretzky is the the Great One who’s individual skill shines through his synergy team-play style. He was the Master Chief of Hockey. It wasn’t that he was the fastest, or smartest, or one thing in particular. Gretzky was the total package and so shinned amongst the singularly skilled. When he made clutch plays, it was because he took a risk and used his personal skills to induce an event that is unlikely to occur. His clutch plays were lucky plays that paid off due to situational awareness.
And wouldn’t you know, many decades later, the game still isn’t perfect, but it’s being tweaked constantly to find that perfect mix. It went from a time when really all you had to do was keep a team down while you shot the puck to win, to now a time where almost any touch to a player not involved in a play is considered interference and called immediately. And the game has gotten FASTER because of it. The teamplay makes things faster…
And that is why paired players (especially AL pairs) are so feaking deadly in Reach. Run alone, die slow. Run as a team, kill’em quickly.
So I think that all means “better shooter” isn’t the same as “better player” when you break it down and see what makes what what. I do wonder what baseball would be like if a pitcher threw nothing but fastballs (because curve balls are random).
@ Reaper:
What did that have to do with bloom exactly? In a 1v1 situation, when there are no random factors, the better shooter always wins, in any case. The thing that already makes them a better shooter is that they landed all their shots with skill, the player who died didn’t and thereby isn’t the better shooter nor the better player.
When we throw these random factors in, it’s not about the best shooter anymore, but who has the best advantage or the best luck. Now let’s leave the advantage out of the equation and concentrate on the luck part. Bloom is added to the situation where we have two players with DMRs. When we organize this situation, we can’t expect the better shooter to win all the time anymore because the other player might get lucky.
Let’s say the other player gets lucky and kills the other player, is that player the better shooter? No. Is that player the better player? Definitely no, luck doesn’t have anything to do with skill, luck is only luck.
Now let’s ditch the bloom and go back to these advantages. When I said advantages, I didn’t mean advantages created by the player, but advantages caused by the conditions. Let’s say the host advatage of online play. Let’s say that we have a game where bullets always travel straight at the center of the reticle, but the game doesn’t have hitscan.
Now we throw these two players in, which other of them is host. Let’s also say that the players live far away from eachother and are separated by a ping of 200. Both players start shooting, the host of course wins because almost none of the client’s shots register. The host got lucky by being a host. No one can’t say that the host was the better shooter, no one can say the host was even the better player. The host was selected by a factor which none of the players could affect which means the host got the kill by luck.
This is a very similar situation to the bloom situation, although the effects of bloom aren’t as drastic, both situations are similar by the fact that the winner got lucky. Still they are sparated by the fact, that many people would say the bloom situation was won by skill, but the host situation was won by an unfair advantage.
Now I know, the bloom winner doesn’t have any advantages, both players have similar chances, but both situations were won because the winner got lucky.
In the bloom situation, there is no way for both players to predict, are they going to get lucky with the bloom. Because luck can’t be predicted, it sure can be guessed, but not predicted. The quessing always comes easier the better your chances are, but no matter what, you can never know until after you go through the situation.
So baseball it is? I mean as an E-sport, Halo should be competitively designed to play as baseball teamwork and not, let me say Lacrosse teamwork (now they’re hardcore athletes).
There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
/end discussion
> There is no good argument for bloom in Halo on precision weapons in a competitve environment. It creates unecessary randomness, limits the indivdual player, kills game flow, and is not needed on a skillful weapon that takes 6-9 accurate shots to kill on shielded/strafing opponents. No other Arena shooter ever had bloom for a reason, its a terrible idea in games with longer kills times and where skill is emphasized.
>
> /end discussion
Whatever dude…
The DMR has bloom so other weapons in the game get used.
That’s the bottom line.
Stop with the dead horse beatings and the lies.
The DMR is fine
Bloom is fine.
“/thread.”
I agree with the OP