The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
61

> > >Stop exaggerating
> >
> > In Halo: Reach, the worse player will always lose. Stop blaming it on the mechanics.
> >
> > However, a group of bad players will always outplay the good player. Unlike H2/H3, which put more emphasis on individual skill, Reach is much more about teamwork.
>
> Sorry but absolutes don’t exist in this case. The worse player can win in some cases. When your reticle is at maximum bloom you can have your reticle not even centered on the guy’s head and land a headshot anyways because your reticle expanded enough and your bullet happened to fly into the right spot on your reticle, that’s luck…it happens, and it shouldn’t.
>
> I agree about teamwork, they emphasized it more and I’m fine with that. I’m just not too keen on the cost it took to get there.

True.

However, spamming at mid-range is only encouraged if you have teammates you communicate with around you. Semi-spamming is the way to go. This means that you have to partially reset your reticle during a firefight to have less expanded bloom and fast rof.

62

> > > >Stop exaggerating
> > >
> > > In Halo: Reach, the worse player will always lose. Stop blaming it on the mechanics.
> > >
> > > However, a group of bad players will always outplay the good player. Unlike H2/H3, which put more emphasis on individual skill, Reach is much more about teamwork.
> >
> > Sorry but absolutes don’t exist in this case. The worse player can win in some cases. When your reticle is at maximum bloom you can have your reticle not even centered on the guy’s head and land a headshot anyways because your reticle expanded enough and your bullet happened to fly into the right spot on your reticle, that’s luck…it happens, and it shouldn’t.
> >
> > I agree about teamwork, they emphasized it more and I’m fine with that. I’m just not too keen on the cost it took to get there.
>
> True.
>
> However, spamming at mid-range is only encouraged if you have teammates you communicate with around you. Semi-spamming is the way to go. This means that you have to partially reset your reticle during a firefight to have less expanded bloom and fast rof.

Yup I agree with you. The principles behind bloom are all good and I agree with the partial spamming as the idea of letting your reticle expand just a bit is fine at mid range. The trouble is that someone can still get lucky by firing as fast as possible and kill you faster on rare occasion.

As I’ve said it’s not a deal breaker for me but I don’t think it’s optimal.

63

> > > > >Stop exaggerating
> > > >
> > > > In Halo: Reach, the worse player will always lose. Stop blaming it on the mechanics.
> > > >
> > > > However, a group of bad players will always outplay the good player. Unlike H2/H3, which put more emphasis on individual skill, Reach is much more about teamwork.
> > >
> > > Sorry but absolutes don’t exist in this case. The worse player can win in some cases. When your reticle is at maximum bloom you can have your reticle not even centered on the guy’s head and land a headshot anyways because your reticle expanded enough and your bullet happened to fly into the right spot on your reticle, that’s luck…it happens, and it shouldn’t.
> > >
> > > I agree about teamwork, they emphasized it more and I’m fine with that. I’m just not too keen on the cost it took to get there.
> >
> > True.
> >
> > However, spamming at mid-range is only encouraged if you have teammates you communicate with around you. Semi-spamming is the way to go. This means that you have to partially reset your reticle during a firefight to have less expanded bloom and fast rof.
>
> Yup I agree with you. The principles behind bloom are all good and I agree with the partial spamming as the idea of letting your reticle expand just a bit is fine at mid range. The trouble is that someone can still get lucky by firing as fast as possible and kill you faster on rare occasion.
>
> As I’ve said it’s not a deal breaker for me but I don’t think it’s optimal.

Agreed, precision weapons should be able to make 1v1 battles luck based because both players are spamming.
If they include bloom, it will be the DMR all over again because there will always be spammers who are lucky and kill the pacing player.

64

the way ive tested it bloom makes almost no difference the bullets hit the same spots

65

I hate to repost this in a different thread but there are two threads (more even) going on about skilled vs less skilled. I changed the order around to make this more appropriate to your thread.

What you are missing is the subjective nature of the term skill. For example you are pro aiming skill and short kill times but complain about teamwork required to finish off enemies. Teamwork is a harder skill to master than a short kill time where having the drop on an enemy is the most important factor in a winnin outcome.

4 shot kill is just perfect.
3 shot kill = too short.
5 shot kill = too long.

I love both the DMR & the BR while being a veteran since Halo CE all the way through.

A 4 shot kill allows for counter actions, fight or flight responses and engagements where the more consistent aiming, situational awareness and reflex actions determine the winner.4 shots kills are the sweetspot for for 1v1 while promoting teamwork for the most effective kills overall.

This in turn lends itself to the highest skillset of individual players and combining teamwork.I don’t play COD or other 1 headshot kill FPS’s because I enjoy Halo for the level playing field and ability to counter opponents who have the situational or first shot drop on me.

Halo 3 was perfect as it allowed solo beast play and teamwork to win over that in most engagements. Reach was too team focused and lost the lustre of a solo style player demolishing a team when the opportunity arose.

Now in Reach when a “skilled solo player” has the drop on an entire team of 4 it usually just comes out as double kill. In Halo 3 that same situation would have that enemy team down by a triple kill and the 4th guy in real trouble. I much prefer the “balance” of Halo 3 in terms of solo vs teamwork play in regard to kill times and 4 shot kills.

Funny if Reach was to just simply change to 4 shot kill the DMR would become great, the double melee with sprint would be less effective, armour lockers would be killed before entering lock and overall the solo vs teamwork balance would be restored to appealing to the masses again.

Let’s face it most players are playing matchmaking solo or as doubles in team based games like slayer/objective/invasion etc so it makes sense to reward solo play more akin to Halo 3 than team based Reach.

66

I never lose to bad players, unless my team is significantly worse.

67

> I hate to repost this in a different thread but there are two threads (more even) going on about skilled vs less skilled. I changed the order around to make this more appropriate to your thread.
>
> What you are missing is the subjective nature of the term skill. For example you are pro aiming skill and short kill times but complain about teamwork required to finish off enemies. Teamwork is a harder skill to master than a short kill time where having the drop on an enemy is the most important factor in a winnin outcome.
>
> 4 shot kill is just perfect.
> 3 shot kill = too short.
> 5 shot kill = too long.
>
> I love both the DMR & the BR while being a veteran since Halo CE all the way through.
>
> A 4 shot kill allows for counter actions, fight or flight responses and engagements where the more consistent aiming, situational awareness and reflex actions determine the winner.4 shots kills are the sweetspot for for 1v1 while promoting teamwork for the most effective kills overall.
>
> This in turn lends itself to the highest skillset of individual players and combining teamwork.I don’t play COD or other 1 headshot kill FPS’s because I enjoy Halo for the level playing field and ability to counter opponents who have the situational or first shot drop on me.
>
> Halo 3 was perfect as it allowed solo beast play and teamwork to win over that in most engagements. Reach was too team focused and lost the lustre of a solo style player demolishing a team when the opportunity arose.
>
> Now in Reach when a “skilled solo player” has the drop on an entire team of 4 it usually just comes out as double kill. In Halo 3 that same situation would have that enemy team down by a triple kill and the 4th guy in real trouble. I much prefer the “balance” of Halo 3 in terms of solo vs teamwork play in regard to kill times and 4 shot kills.
>
> Funny if Reach was to just simply change to 4 shot kill the DMR would become great, the double melee with sprint would be less effective, armour lockers would be killed before entering lock and overall the solo vs teamwork balance would be restored to appealing to the masses again.
>
> Let’s face it most players are playing matchmaking solo or as doubles in team based games like slayer/objective/invasion etc so it makes sense to reward solo play more akin to Halo 3 than team based Reach.

I hate to cut it so short, but I sort of like the idea of a 4 shot kill. Maybe make a headshot do more damage to a shielded enemy like Halo 1?

3 shots to take off the shield with the DMR might work, but the ENTIRE game would need to be rebalanced behind the DMR’s 20% increase in power (Pretty significant).

It COULD work… But the amount of work required to make it work might be too much for 343i’s to handle. They’ll be pretty busy with Halo 4 and keeping Halo: Reach updated as it is.

68

There is very little room for individual skill in Reach, thats the hugest problem. Its pretty much ALL teamwork and communication.

Halo 4 needs to enable the player, not limit the player. Give us simple tools and high skilled weapons and some more depth to skilled game elements to allow the players abilities to determine battles, not AA’s or bloom like in Reach.

69

> > Video #2. Snipedown lost because he was out shot before he fired back and then he missed 2 or 3 shots by himself, without bloom’s help
>
> Maybe so, but he would have gotten the kill if Bloom didn’t exist, he had dead red aim at the head and got nothing for his efforts. Bloom caused the guy who was aiming at the head to lose.
>
>
>
> > [Video #1. Things would have worked out better if the spammed shots were to the body, not the head. At least if you miss the headshot, you can still hit the body and not miss 1 shot because of player aiming error. Chasing an enemy while spamming is not a smart idea. Pausing for a moment, then sprinting with a jump and sprint-cancel past the corner, the likely hood of a 1-shot kill without being headshot back is much higher than either player getting a win just because both players were spamming each other.
> > But really now, I count 2 or 3 shots that missed because the reticle was not red and so was not even on the enemy when fired. 1 good shot will beat 2 or 3 missed shots.
>
> The whole point is to get the kill in the fastest way possible: headshots. The problem is that the tradeoff between letting bloom reset and taking the chance is minimal, you get about the same probability of success which creates those random encounters.
>
> Again, if two people stand at mid range and spam 5 shots at each other you won’t get the same results often, that is not good at all.

SnipeDown would have died if it was Halo2 or 3 as he was already 2 shots down when he fired back.

As for the last sentence;

  1. Use that knowledge. Would you like some more?

  2. I don’t know about you, but I don’t stand and shoot in Halo, that makes me an easy target. Having one player move and one player stand still should change those results quite drastically. Ahhh, see, I made the choice to move, knowing full well a fully rested DMR probably won’t miss regardless of the actions I take.
    I know I have a much better chance of winning simply because I can compensate for my movements as I double tap my shots while the enemy is full out spamming me without knowing if I’ll move left, right, jump or crouch. All movements at are very effective against a spamming DMR at midrange, but almost completely ineffective against a fully rested DMR shot.
    You should test that.

70

OP i would like to say that i agree with what you are saying, but i dont think you are saying it the correct way.

its not that the person who is more skilled should win 100% of the time, its the person who PERFORMED BETTER that should win 100% of the time, wouldnt you agree?

as an example: i might be technically better at ‘aiming + DMR battles’ than someone, but if they out shoot me i should die 100% of the time.

> > > Video #2. Snipedown lost because he was out shot before he fired back and then he missed 2 or 3 shots by himself, without bloom’s help
> >
> > Maybe so, but he would have gotten the kill if Bloom didn’t exist, he had dead red aim at the head and got nothing for his efforts. Bloom caused the guy who was aiming at the head to lose.
> >
> >
> >
> > > [Video #1. Things would have worked out better if the spammed shots were to the body, not the head. At least if you miss the headshot, you can still hit the body and not miss 1 shot because of player aiming error. Chasing an enemy while spamming is not a smart idea. Pausing for a moment, then sprinting with a jump and sprint-cancel past the corner, the likely hood of a 1-shot kill without being headshot back is much higher than either player getting a win just because both players were spamming each other.
> > > But really now, I count 2 or 3 shots that missed because the reticle was not red and so was not even on the enemy when fired. 1 good shot will beat 2 or 3 missed shots.
> >
> > The whole point is to get the kill in the fastest way possible: headshots. The problem is that the tradeoff between letting bloom reset and taking the chance is minimal, you get about the same probability of success which creates those random encounters.
> >
> > Again, if two people stand at mid range and spam 5 shots at each other you won’t get the same results often, that is not good at all.
>
> SnipeDown would have died if it was Halo2 or 3 as he was already 2 shots down when he fired back.
>
> As for the last sentence;
> 1) Use that knowledge. Would you like some more?
>
> 2) I don’t know about you, but I don’t stand and shoot in Halo, that makes me an easy target. Having one player move and one player stand still should change those results quite drastically. Ahhh, see, I made the choice to move, knowing full well a fully rested DMR probably won’t miss regardless of the actions I take.
> I know I have a much better chance of winning simply because I can compensate for my movements as I double tap my shots while the enemy is full out spamming me without knowing if I’ll move left, right, jump or crouch. All movements at are very effective against a spamming DMR at midrange, but almost completely ineffective against a fully rested DMR shot.
> You should test that.

who is effected more by strafing?

the kid aiming with a small reticule, or the kid aiming with a watermelon?

the answer is obvious. the kid aiming with a small reticule will be more ‘negatively effected’ by strafing than the person aiming with a watermelon because the player speed in reach is so EMBARRASSINGLY SLOW strafing has little to no effect.

strafing is a bad example of a way to make the person who is ghasp ACTUALLY OBSERVING THE MECHANIC win MORE (not always) against the person making NO ATTEMPT to observe the mechanic.

the game should be shoot better -> win the 1v1 DMR battle 100% of the time. unfortunately because of the ATROCIOUS implementation of bloom in halo reach, the person who shoots technically worse will win quite a bit. this is not only illogical, its also unintuitive.

the games mechanics would LIKE players to observe bloom, and pace their shots, but it also rewards people who dont. this is one of the BIGGEST contradictory mechanics in the history of halo games, if not the very biggest.

it makes literally no sense whatsoever for the person mashing his R trigger to no end to win against someone pacing his shots and ACTUALLY TRYING TO PLAY THE GAME AS INTENDED.

spamming should literally be so god-awful at EVERY SINGLE RANGE that no one would EVER win a battle by spamming, even if the person pacing only has 20% accuracy. why? because that person is actually PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED.

spamming shouldnt win 50%, it shouldnt win 20%, it shouldnt win 5%, nor should it win 1%.

oh, then we have close range DMR battles that are completely decided by whichever person gets more lucky with their shots. thats always fun. the game literally feels more and more sloppy as you get close to another person. how sick is that?

71

> who is effected more by strafing?
>
> the kid aiming with a small reticule, or the kid aiming with a watermelon?
>
> the answer is obvious. the kid aiming with a small reticule will be more ‘negatively effected’ by strafing than the person aiming with a watermelon because the player speed in reach is so EMBARRASSINGLY SLOW strafing has little to no effect.
>
> strafing is a bad example of a way to make the person who is ghasp ACTUALLY OBSERVING THE MECHANIC win MORE (not always) against the person making NO ATTEMPT to observe the mechanic.

The one with the least amount of aim-assist.
By keeping my aim-assist at its maximum, I am by default firing a watermelon sized bullet because I will not miss. When the reticle is at rest and red, if any part of the reticle touches the enemy, it’s a hit.
If I am spamming, my aim-assist is at its lowest and I am shooting through a hole the size of a watermelon but with a bullet the size of a human eye.
If the reticle is blue, things are completely different. And I would take the small reticle over the watermelon reticle any battle if the shots are going to land somewhere inside.

> spamming shouldnt win 50%, it shouldnt win 20%, it shouldnt win 5%, nor should it win 1%.

For the Pistol that is correct. For the DMR or NR, that is incorrect. Work with it.

72

> The one with the least amount of aim-assist.
> By keeping my aim-assist at its maximum, I am by default firing a watermelon sized bullet because I will not miss. When the reticle is at rest and red, if any part of the reticle touches the enemy, it’s a hit.
> If I am spamming, my aim-assist is at its lowest and I am shooting through a hole the size of a watermelon but with a bullet the size of a human eye.
> If the reticle is blue, things are completely different.

Just a small error in your post… When the reticle is red, you ARE NOT guaranteed a hit, even when bloom is fully reset. The bullet magnetism on precision weapons is at its lowest point since Halo 1.

Look at the Snipedown video. He has at least 3-4 shots in the red, even the very last one is red with the bloom completely reset and he misses. Because he was far left.

73

That’s such a lie. lol The video clearly shows the guys shots going wild while the pov was pacing his shots. Sorry. Deal with the truth instead of justifying the game for it bad gameplay. There was also another video on this thread where sk is pacing shots and the pov’s bloom is wild and his bullet goes wild all the way to the right and nails him right in the face. Thats not skill. It was the roll of the dice. sorry. Bloom sucks. If people can’t learn how to aim like halo ce 2 and 3 then keep trying to lie to yourself while the rest of us try to fix this game.

74

> > The one with the least amount of aim-assist.
> > By keeping my aim-assist at its maximum, I am by default firing a watermelon sized bullet because I will not miss. When the reticle is at rest and red, if any part of the reticle touches the enemy, it’s a hit.
> > If I am spamming, my aim-assist is at its lowest and I am shooting through a hole the size of a watermelon but with a bullet the size of a human eye.
> > If the reticle is blue, things are completely different.
>
> Just a small error in your post… When the reticle is red, you ARE NOT guaranteed a hit, even when bloom is fully reset. The bullet magnetism on precision weapons is at its lowest point since Halo 1.
>
> Look at the Snipedown video. He has at least 3-4 shots in the red, even the very last one is red with the bloom completely reset and he misses. Because he was far left.

You may want to reconsider your words greatly. Snipedown had far from perfect shooting. It is only because of bloom he ever stood a chance to win that encounter in the first place. If it was any other Halo, he’d be dead before he fired his second shot (which is the intent of the properly working function of Reach’s bloom affected weapons). Or maybe I’m reading things wrong.

Now this video shows how the Needle Rifle is more focused for midrange combat. It’s a little something something about bullet magnetism. Not much on stationary targets, but hey, now you know you can pace your NR shots for a better chance for a hit at midish range.

75

> > > PROOF RIGHT HERE
> > >
> > > example 1:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
> > >
> > > the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
> > >
> > >
> > > example 2:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> > >
> > > he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.
> >
> > no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.
>
> Concrete proof is often ignored if people don’t want to admit you have a point.
>
> How do I know? I used to be one of the guys who ignored this kind of proof, but if you play the game enough you learn that Bloom is broken. It can work, but it doesn’t in Halo Reach.

First video, bloom screwed no one over. He was spamming too much. If someone has dropped the other player’s shields while taking minimal to no damage himself, it is NEVER the game’s fault. That was purely the player’s fault.

Second video, I LOVE this one. So many people try to use it as an argument AGAINST bloom but it’s actually one FOR bloom. It shows a player taking minimal damage (Yet again) and spamming like a wild man, even though his opponent has no shields. The other player, the “lucky” one, was pacing his shots and got a deserved win in that play. I mean, how can you miss 6 shots in a row. Even body shots would’ve done the trick.

I’m not saying it doesn’t need work, but more videos of bloom actually being a problem need to be revealed. Almost every video I’ve seen so far have been working towards the opposite point instead of the one they’re trying to make.

76

> You may want to reconsider your words greatly. Snipedown had far from perfect shooting. It is only because of bloom he ever stood a chance to win that encounter in the first place. If it was any other Halo, he’d be dead before he fired his second shot (which is the intent of the properly working function of Reach’s bloom affected weapons).
>
> Now this video shows how the Needle Rifle is more focused for midrange combat. It’s a little something something about bullet magnetism. Not much on stationary targets, but hey, now you know you can pace your NR shots for a better chance for a hit at midish range.

I’m agreeing with you, Snipedown had awful aim and shooting. Even without bloom he would’ve missed every one of those shots. They were all over the place.

But the point about a fully reset reticle in red being an automatic hit was incorrect. He missed that last shot wide left, even though it was completely red.

77

Sorry. The fact is people want the game to be more fast paced. The bloom just cuts off the line of good gameplay vs bad. It should have nothing to do with bloom but with who can aim better. Every Halo was that. Reach is just too damn slow and people don’t want it that way. That’s why they spam. Focusing on one guy for 3 seconds is just ridiculous. I remeber when Halo focused on good knowledge of map geometry, team work, and knowing how to evade an attack without stupid AA’s. When Halo was an ARENA SHOOTER.

78

> > spamming shouldnt win 50%, it shouldnt win 20%, it shouldnt win 5%, nor should it win 1%.
>
> For the Pistol that is correct. For the DMR or NR, that is incorrect. Work with it.

Care to explain? Why should luck win in any 1v1 DMR situation? It is completely irrational to say that in DMR and NR 1v1 situations luck should be a factor while in reality, it shouldn’t be a factor in any possible 1v1 situation.

Spamming should never win in any situation as it requires no skill, unlike pacing your shots that rquires skill, but still doesn’t win in all stiuations

79

Ya, I edited. I didn’t read it as a disagreement to me, but I did as a disagreement to the situation.

80

> Sorry. The fact is people want the game to be more fast paced. The bloom just cuts off the line of good gameplay vs bad. It should have nothing to do with bloom but with who can aim better. Every Halo was that. Reach is just too damn slow and people don’t want it that way.

I have no idea who you’re directing your posts at, use the Quote button.

And what video were you talking about before? I haven’t seen one in this thread that actually shows bloom as a big problem yet.