The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
682

> > > In every single Halo game the better man wins. If you think otherwise you are honestly coming up with excuses. This is not something that they need to work on for Halo 4 since it’s been this way in Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach.
> >
> > That’s not true in any game. Every player gets “lucky” sometimes in some way. The problem with Reach is that there is an added mechanic or three that makes it easier for worse players to get lucky. That’s a BIG difference.
>
> And they added a mechanic or 3 that makes it easier for better players to avoid “luck”(AL, Sprint, Evade, etc)…so it balances out.

Balancing bad features with other bad features can hardly be called balancing. Balancing simply doesn’t work like that, features that only balance one thing, but are otherwise detrimental to gameplay are very bad features.

683

> IMHO, if you really want Halo balanced (better player wins…whatever)…all of the basic weapons…AR, DMR, Spiker, plasma pistol/rifle should have the same rate of damage…meaning within a certain amount of time, 2 seconds for example, non-headshot hits should all drain shields the same amount…provided that every shot lands…so that 2 noobs simply running at each other should die at the same time. I’m not going to do a thourogh test, but from the few thousand MM games I’ve played, that is what Reach seems to do. So if one player is better with any weapon than you are with your DMR, they should win, and then you can blame bloom or whatever other excuse for YOUR shortcomings.

Bullet magnetism combined with watermelon sized reticle that nearly defeats the purpose of strafing is far from a personal shortcoming.
Sir.

684

>

I agree with you. I love this game and think AA’s add to the game, I believe the game is balanced just fine. Those that say they got killed by a less skilled player are full of crap…they were obviously outplayed within the dynamics of the game. Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win! The variety of AA’s are meant to be used tactically. In Halo 3, players constantly quit because of spawn killing , once a team dominates the map AA’s give you a chance to break that, now you can go into AL against that speeding ghost or banshee fuel rod cannon.

If anyone thinks bloom wasn’t present in other Halo titles, load up forge on Halo 3 and test out the BR spread for spam and pace.

Want the ranked experience? Play against other “skilled players”? then play Arena or MLG playlists

Hate AA’s? then play the classic playlist.

The vast majority of the community are not “skilled players”, Microsoft/343 are not going to design a game in which said “less skilled players” have no chance at all against (The) “skilled player”, they would quickly loose interest and more than likely not purchase map packs/ future Halo games.

Halo CE magnum in multiplayer…that would truly break the game.

685

> >
>
> I agree with you. I love this game and think AA’s add to the game, I believe the game is balanced just fine. Those that say they got killed by a less skilled player are full of crap…they were obviously outplayed within the dynamics of the game. Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win! The variety of AA’s are meant to be used tactically. In Halo 3, players constantly quit because of spawn killing , once a team dominates the map AA’s give you a chance to break that, now you can go into AL against that speeding ghost or banshee fuel rod cannon.

Tactics and team work were in Halo before Reach, Reach just forces team work down players’ throat. What comes to tactics, these have always had an important role in Halo. Only thing that is actually lost it’s importance is individual skill, something that should be a big part of Halo.

> If anyone thinks bloom wasn’t present in other Halo titles, load up forge on Halo 3 and test out the BR spread for spam and pace.

The BR spread is very different to bloom, it’s a set amount of randomness and the randomness factor is smaller than what we have in Reach. Besides, no one said spread would be any better than bloom.

> Want the ranked experience? Play against other “skilled players”? then play Arena or MLG playlists
>
> Hate AA’s? then play the classic playlist.

Arena is a joke, Team Classic is hardly classic. MLG is pretty much the only considerable playlist and because of loose skill reguirements in Reach everywhere else than in Arena, you usually get either too bad or too good players.

> The vast majority of the community are not “skilled players”, Microsoft/343 are not going to design a game in which said “less skilled players” have no chance at all against (The) “skilled player”, they would quickly loose interest and more than likely not purchase map packs/ future Halo games.
>
> Halo CE magnum in multiplayer…that would truly break the game.

The less skilled player shouldn’t be playing against the skilled player in the first place. The lesser skilled players simply don’t need to have a chance agaisnt the skilled players because they shouldn’t be in the same game. Everyone should be playing against players on their skill level.

What comes to CE magnum: in Reach multiplayer it actually isn’t the best choice, but in a properly designed sandbox it will work, as it did in Halo CE.

686

Reach wasn’t designed for the skilled gamer, it was designed to appeal to casual gamers in a failed attempt to steal COD’s thunder.

Thus we got a mediocre game that was hated by casual and skilled gamers alike for being inconsistent.

687

> > IMHO, if you really want Halo balanced (better player wins…whatever)…all of the basic weapons…AR, DMR, Spiker, plasma pistol/rifle should have the same rate of damage…meaning within a certain amount of time, 2 seconds for example, non-headshot hits should all drain shields the same amount…provided that every shot lands…so that 2 noobs simply running at each other should die at the same time. I’m not going to do a thourogh test, but from the few thousand MM games I’ve played, that is what Reach seems to do. So if one player is better with any weapon than you are with your DMR, they should win, and then you can blame bloom or whatever other excuse for YOUR shortcomings.
>
> Bullet magnetism combined with watermelon sized reticle that nearly defeats the purpose of strafing is far from a personal shortcoming.
> Sir.

Say what you want…I played a game against my wife last night…needler vs DMR…she got a couple of kills on me with the “watermelon-sized reticle”…but I still won 25-7(she also occasionally snagged a rocket launcher as well.
Most of the time, though, we started firing at each other at the same time and I walked away with shields still intact.

688

> > IMHO, if you really want Halo balanced (better player wins…whatever)…all of the basic weapons…AR, DMR, Spiker, plasma pistol/rifle should have the same rate of damage…meaning within a certain amount of time, 2 seconds for example, non-headshot hits should all drain shields the same amount…provided that every shot lands…so that 2 noobs simply running at each other should die at the same time. I’m not going to do a thourogh test, but from the few thousand MM games I’ve played, that is what Reach seems to do. So if one player is better with any weapon than you are with your DMR, they should win, and then you can blame bloom or whatever other excuse for YOUR shortcomings.
>
> Bullet magnetism combined with watermelon sized reticle that nearly defeats the purpose of strafing is far from a personal shortcoming.
> Sir.

well said. against spamming, strafing actually does the SPAMMER more good. it doesnt matter how incredible you are at strafing. if they are even mediocre they’ll be able to keep that WATERMELON on target, with ease. heck, even if they flail and miss (which is what spamming is all about), they are spamming so they can afford to miss, then just get lucky with subsequent bullets and still get the kill.

the statement that the better player always wins might be true about the game, but its 100% false when looking at 1v1 individual battles in halo reach. often times, in these situations, the person who flails around and plays like an ignoramus wins against the person playing the game as intended, and shooting flawlessly. this simply should not happen. ever.

also, it doesnt benefit anyone to boot. the vast majority of the people who are observant enough at halo to tell when they get beat by full auto spamming DO NOT LIKE IT (at mid range).

689

> > > IMHO, if you really want Halo balanced (better player wins…whatever)…all of the basic weapons…AR, DMR, Spiker, plasma pistol/rifle should have the same rate of damage…meaning within a certain amount of time, 2 seconds for example, non-headshot hits should all drain shields the same amount…provided that every shot lands…so that 2 noobs simply running at each other should die at the same time. I’m not going to do a thourogh test, but from the few thousand MM games I’ve played, that is what Reach seems to do. So if one player is better with any weapon than you are with your DMR, they should win, and then you can blame bloom or whatever other excuse for YOUR shortcomings.
> >
> > Bullet magnetism combined with watermelon sized reticle that nearly defeats the purpose of strafing is far from a personal shortcoming.
> > Sir.
>
> Say what you want…I played a game against my wife last night…needler vs DMR…she got a couple of kills on me with the “watermelon-sized reticle”…but I still won 25-7(she also occasionally snagged a rocket launcher as well.
> Most of the time, though, we started firing at each other at the same time and I walked away with shields still intact.

I tried to find the video, but you can try ingame.

you only need the edge of the reticle on the enemy player for the assault rifle to do full damage.

this is just horrible, and you know it’s true.

690

> Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win!

QFT

The game is rarely ever A vs B…it is almost always A vs B then C finds them and takes out the weakened victor, followed by D assassinating C only to swing around and get a shotgun blast to the face from E and then gets grenaded by A but manages to drop A’s shields halfway before dying when B shows up…rinse & repeat
…All while player F is sitting in the corner with an energy sword waiting for anybody to happen by.

edit: Just did a test of DMR vs AR at varying ranges (on my fileshare, BTW). Sat 2 guys directly in front of each other and held down the AR trigger while firing off 5 direct headshots with DMR. Without fail, DMR won with health at 2-3 notches left…with one exception. There is a range, albeit a small range, where the DMR had a lock and the AR didn’t (long range DMR won hands down), where the AR won out…although this could be user error, as getting shot does throw your aim slightly off, and I wasn’t aiming after initially pulling the trigger. Later I started aiming and DMR never lost

So fighting in a vaccum (AR vs DMR, both at full shields/health) DMR wins every time.

But Reach, or any other Halo for that matter, doesn’t play in a vaccum, as exampled above.

691

> > Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win!
>
> QFT
>
> The game is rarely ever A vs B…it is almost always A vs B then C finds them and takes out the weakened victor, followed by D assassinating C only to swing around and get a shotgun blast to the face from E and then gets grenaded by A but manages to drop A’s shields halfway before dying when B shows up…rinse & repeat
> …All while player F is sitting in the corner with an energy sword waiting for anybody to happen by.
>
> edit: Just did a test of DMR vs AR at varying ranges (on my fileshare, BTW). Sat 2 guys directly in front of each other and held down the AR trigger while firing off 5 direct headshots with DMR. Without fail, DMR won with health at 2-3 notches left…with one exception. There is a range, albeit a small range, where the DMR had a lock and the AR didn’t (long range DMR won hands down), where the AR won out…although this could be user error, as getting shot does throw your aim slightly off, and I wasn’t aiming after initially pulling the trigger. Later I started aiming and DMR never lost
>
> So fighting in a vaccum (AR vs DMR, both at full shields/health) DMR wins every time.
>
> But Reach, or any other Halo for that matter, doesn’t play in a vaccum, as exampled above.

its more like

player A shoots with flawless aim and cadence (mid range)

player B mashes his R trigger and flails around with aiming

player B wins some of the time against player A under these circumstances.

at the same time, player C gets outplayed by player D, but simply armor locks and waits for his teammates to come save him, with ample time to spare because armor lock is so blatantly overpowered.

and player E jet packs to the top of the map where bungie failed at putting a kill barrier, and sits up there with infinite lines of sight on the map, all of which he is shooting DOWN at people (not that height advantage is important or anything /sarcasm)

then player F is 1 shot down in a DMR battle, so he just turns around and sprints away.

thats reach, in a nutshell lol.

692

> > > Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win!
> >
> > QFT
> >
> > The game is rarely ever A vs B…it is almost always A vs B then C finds them and takes out the weakened victor, followed by D assassinating C only to swing around and get a shotgun blast to the face from E and then gets grenaded by A but manages to drop A’s shields halfway before dying when B shows up…rinse & repeat
> > …All while player F is sitting in the corner with an energy sword waiting for anybody to happen by.
> >
> > edit: Just did a test of DMR vs AR at varying ranges (on my fileshare, BTW). Sat 2 guys directly in front of each other and held down the AR trigger while firing off 5 direct headshots with DMR. Without fail, DMR won with health at 2-3 notches left…with one exception. There is a range, albeit a small range, where the DMR had a lock and the AR didn’t (long range DMR won hands down), where the AR won out…although this could be user error, as getting shot does throw your aim slightly off, and I wasn’t aiming after initially pulling the trigger. Later I started aiming and DMR never lost
> >
> > So fighting in a vaccum (AR vs DMR, both at full shields/health) DMR wins every time.
> >
> > But Reach, or any other Halo for that matter, doesn’t play in a vaccum, as exampled above.
>
> its more like
>
> player A shoots with flawless aim and cadence (mid range)
>
> player B mashes his R trigger and flails around with aiming
>
> player B wins some of the time against player A under these circumstances.
>
> at the same time, player C gets outplayed by player D, but simply armor locks and waits for his teammates to come save him, with ample time to spare because armor lock is so blatantly overpowered.
>
> and player E jet packs to the top of the map where bungie failed at putting a kill barrier, and sits up there with infinite lines of sight on the map, all of which he is shooting DOWN at people (not that height advantage is important or anything /sarcasm)
>
> then player F is 1 shot down in a DMR battle, so he just turns around and sprints away.
>
> thats reach, in a nutshell lol.

As stated before, AR can only win against DMR if AR lands every shot and DMR player is lacking in health/shields (check my file share for “One Shall Stand”)…so “flawless” aim and cadence…guess not on the previous 1v1 encounter. AR only trashes damaged goods, not full health/shields.

693

> > > > Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win!
> > >
> > > QFT
> > >
> > > The game is rarely ever A vs B…it is almost always A vs B then C finds them and takes out the weakened victor, followed by D assassinating C only to swing around and get a shotgun blast to the face from E and then gets grenaded by A but manages to drop A’s shields halfway before dying when B shows up…rinse & repeat
> > > …All while player F is sitting in the corner with an energy sword waiting for anybody to happen by.
> > >
> > > edit: Just did a test of DMR vs AR at varying ranges (on my fileshare, BTW). Sat 2 guys directly in front of each other and held down the AR trigger while firing off 5 direct headshots with DMR. Without fail, DMR won with health at 2-3 notches left…with one exception. There is a range, albeit a small range, where the DMR had a lock and the AR didn’t (long range DMR won hands down), where the AR won out…although this could be user error, as getting shot does throw your aim slightly off, and I wasn’t aiming after initially pulling the trigger. Later I started aiming and DMR never lost
> > >
> > > So fighting in a vaccum (AR vs DMR, both at full shields/health) DMR wins every time.
> > >
> > > But Reach, or any other Halo for that matter, doesn’t play in a vaccum, as exampled above.
> >
> > its more like
> >
> > player A shoots with flawless aim and cadence (mid range)
> >
> > player B mashes his R trigger and flails around with aiming
> >
> > player B wins some of the time against player A under these circumstances.
> >
> > at the same time, player C gets outplayed by player D, but simply armor locks and waits for his teammates to come save him, with ample time to spare because armor lock is so blatantly overpowered.
> >
> > and player E jet packs to the top of the map where bungie failed at putting a kill barrier, and sits up there with infinite lines of sight on the map, all of which he is shooting DOWN at people (not that height advantage is important or anything /sarcasm)
> >
> > then player F is 1 shot down in a DMR battle, so he just turns around and sprints away.
> >
> > thats reach, in a nutshell lol.
>
> As stated before, AR can only win against DMR if AR lands every shot and DMR player is lacking in health/shields (check my file share for “One Shall Stand”)…so “flawless” aim and cadence…guess not on the previous 1v1 encounter. AR only trashes damaged goods, not full health/shields.

i wasnt talking about the AR in my post. i was talking about 1v1 DMR battles.

694

I agree but I like the rank up system in reach because you don’t ALLWAYS have to play matchmaking to get credits(Even though matchmaking gives a lot more credits). I think plasma weapons should have quicker rounds because in Invasion the assault rifle beats the plasma repeater and needler becuse they can be doged but assoult rifle can’t.

695

> > > > Reach isn’t a series of one-on-one contacts where the more skilled player always wins , it’s a team game where tactics and teamwork win!
> > >
> > > QFT
> > >
> > > The game is rarely ever A vs B…it is almost always A vs B then C finds them and takes out the weakened victor, followed by D assassinating C only to swing around and get a shotgun blast to the face from E and then gets grenaded by A but manages to drop A’s shields halfway before dying when B shows up…rinse & repeat
> > > …All while player F is sitting in the corner with an energy sword waiting for anybody to happen by.
> > >
> > > edit: Just did a test of DMR vs AR at varying ranges (on my fileshare, BTW). Sat 2 guys directly in front of each other and held down the AR trigger while firing off 5 direct headshots with DMR. Without fail, DMR won with health at 2-3 notches left…with one exception. There is a range, albeit a small range, where the DMR had a lock and the AR didn’t (long range DMR won hands down), where the AR won out…although this could be user error, as getting shot does throw your aim slightly off, and I wasn’t aiming after initially pulling the trigger. Later I started aiming and DMR never lost
> > >
> > > So fighting in a vaccum (AR vs DMR, both at full shields/health) DMR wins every time.
> > >
> > > But Reach, or any other Halo for that matter, doesn’t play in a vaccum, as exampled above.
> >
> > its more like
> >
> > player A shoots with flawless aim and cadence (mid range)
> >
> > player B mashes his R trigger and flails around with aiming
> >
> > player B wins some of the time against player A under these circumstances.
> >
> > at the same time, player C gets outplayed by player D, but simply armor locks and waits for his teammates to come save him, with ample time to spare because armor lock is so blatantly overpowered.
> >
> > and player E jet packs to the top of the map where bungie failed at putting a kill barrier, and sits up there with infinite lines of sight on the map, all of which he is shooting DOWN at people (not that height advantage is important or anything /sarcasm)
> >
> > then player F is 1 shot down in a DMR battle, so he just turns around and sprints away.
> >
> > thats reach, in a nutshell lol.
>
> As stated before, AR can only win against DMR if AR lands every shot and DMR player is lacking in health/shields (check my file share for “One Shall Stand”)…so “flawless” aim and cadence…guess not on the previous 1v1 encounter. AR only trashes damaged goods, not full health/shields.

Most of the time people run at you with the AR until close enough for meelee. who ever meelees first wins. (take out shields with AR, finish him with meelee)

696

> I agree but I like the rank up system in reach because you don’t ALLWAYS have to play matchmaking to get credits(Even though matchmaking gives a lot more credits). I think plasma weapons should have quicker rounds because in Invasion the assault rifle beats the plasma repeater and needler becuse they can be doged but assoult rifle can’t.

The Plasma Repeater might have a slower fire rate, but the plasma does more damage then the AR’s bullets.
Plasma weapons break shields easily, and human weapons kill unshielded players faster. also, the Plasma Repeater does not have to reload, you can easily kill a full shielded player without it getting overheated.

About the ranking system, why would campaign have anything to do with the armor you wear. I think they should’ve kept the halo 3 exp system. sure it had some flaws, but reach’s ranking system is all about playtime and commendation boosting.

697

Honestly, I don’t get all this. In Reach I’ll lose if the player out shoots me, has a better weapon, or catches me off guard. Very rarely could I say I lost in a one on one engagement with a player that was significantly worse than me, and if such a person killed me would that not mean he had outplayed me whether he knew what he was doing or if it was lucky? You know, like it is in one form or another in any other Halo game?

698

> Of course it should be this way, not to be elitist of anything, but coin flip battles aren’t Halo.
>
> Lesser player beats the skilled in Reach because of Bloom.
>
> Bloom in precision weapons if you ask me, shrinks the skill gap even more than armor lock.
>
> The BR should most definitely be in Halo 4.

Define skill. Armor Lock can be used skillfully like any other armor ability and weapon. A man shoots the grenade tossed at him as soon as it leaves the foe’s hand. That is skill. Armor Locking before being struck by a rocket and redirecting it. Skill. Using the Sniper Rifle to damage vehicles, Tact. Bloom is needed, so far the majority has no problem with it. They played with bloom in other games. Halo - Halo 3 we never had it. Our weapons needed no skill to use because they were all accurate as hell. In Reach you need to time your shots or take a dirt nap. I hope Bloom stays in.

699

> I’m sorry, but you’re just whining because you’re bad.
>
> Sure, everyone has good and bad days, but “randomness” doesn’t mean that a less-skilled player will defeat a better player. Reach isn’t anywhere near as random as you’re saying it is, and you’re just mad because you like to tell yourself that you’re better than you actually are.

so, in your opinion, who should win (and how much %)

(mid range defined as AT LEAST ring 2 of sanctuary to sniper of sanctuary up until snipe A to pea shooter on snipe B side)

the person who spams all of his shots in the 1v1 DMR battle at mid range

or the person who has flawless aim and cadence

?

the fact of the matter is, BUNGIE SAID BLOOM DOESNT WORK AS INTENDED. heres what the official word from bungie is, regarding bloom on the DMR:

> 1.) the goal of bloom was to enforce a cadence
> 2.) shooting to cadence is really only a valid tactic at range (fail, see #1)
> 3.) the closer you get to your opponent, the less cadence applies (more fail the closer 2 people are together)
> 4.) players both casual and competitive can attest to how spamming the trigger actually becomes the more reliable option here.
> 5.) So, ultimately while the goal was to make the weapons feel more sophisticated and add a layer of skill required to use them, the net result has been that medium range weapons such as the DMR feel unreliable at their intended range.
> 6.) and trigger spam has not been discouraged. (but, as implied, it was meant to be)

this argument as been over before bungie even said anything. bloom is inherently flawed as it is currently implemented in reach, with the DMR (and to a lesser extent, the NR) because there literally isnt one single person in the entire community that can tell you who benefits from the DMR letting people who full auto spam win some of the time against people who pace their shots (use the gun as intended) with flawless cadence, and perfect accuracy (at mid range).

im all for hearing someone that benefits from the DMR functioning as it does, so feel free to try. many have argued that the DMR is ‘perfect’ or ‘fine’ or ‘optimal’ but its none of these things.

700

I cannot believe people are still defending luck-factors such as bloom on page 47 of this thread.

Therre’s plenty reasons mentioned in the previous pages and on this page, yet people keep defending the things that ruined Halo : Reach to me and many others.

How is RANDOM BLOOM a good thing?

explain.

701

> I cannot believe people are still defending luck-factors such as bloom on page 47 of this thread.
>
> Therre’s plenty reasons mentioned in the previous pages and on this page, yet people keep defending the things that ruined Halo : Reach to me and many others.
>
> How is RANDOM BLOOM a good thing?
>
> explain.

It’s not random. You know your bullet will always land in that circle. herp

If you’re losing to other people, it’s clearly because they’re more skilled than you are, not that they suck and the game let them win derp.