The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

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662

I do agree with what you posted. It is pretty annoying when you get killed by someone who you know is worse than you.

However…

I think you are missing the point that is trying to be made when 343i and Bungie are creating and created their games. The point is, they want everyone to be able to enjoy and experience their games, and not just have it be focused at a select few group of players who are “better than everyone else”. If bad players lost all the time, they’d stop playing, and only good players would be left, but the complaining would still go on about the elitist people who are better than some of the ‘good’ players…

663

> but why is a game with inherent luck, that makes it so -some- of the time the person who flails around like an idiot can beat someone with flawless aim and cadence BETTER than the game being FIXED so when you shoot better, you win 100% of the time?
>
> luck may, or may not be in certain areas of halo. that much is irrelevant, however, if you cannot give examples of why luck is BETTER in bloom, or how bloom in its current implementation BENEFITS ANYONE.
>
> do you acknowledge that bloom, in its current implementation on the DMR (and to a lesser extent, the NR) has A LOT of room to improve?

Bloom benefits players because the spammer is at an extreme disadvantage with the Needle Rifle, Pistol and Assault Rifle and at a slight disadvantage with the DMR. It adds depth to the gunplay. It turns from, “who shot first” into, “who has more skill”. In its current implementation, the DMR doesn’t give enough of an advantage to the pacer than the spammer.

I have always, literally since the very, very beginning of this debate, said that the DMR’s bloom and bloom in general needs work. Not A LOT of work, as all they need to do is increase the bloom to a higher extent and maybe take off auto-aim/bullet magnetism when the gun has been spammed too many times. These are very simple fixes. At least with the Title Update will give us the option of tuning bloom up to 150% or so and see how that works. But no, I won’t acknowledge that it needs a lot of work, as a few simple tweaks to the options/coding will make it work pretty much perfectly.

664

> I do agree with what you posted. It is pretty annoying when you get killed by someone who you know is worse than you.
>
> However…
>
> I think you are missing the point that is trying to be made when 343i and Bungie are creating and created their games. The point is, they want everyone to be able to enjoy and experience their games, and not just have it be focused at a select few group of players who are “better than everyone else”. If bad players lost all the time, they’d stop playing, and only good players would be left, but the complaining would still go on about the elitist people who are better than some of the ‘good’ players…

You’re looking at all of this the wrong way, bad players are losing now. Bloom and AA’s haven’t upset the balance between players. Good players still maintain good k/d’s and win the majority of their games and bad players are still bad. The reason the good players want changes made is because at the competitive level where you face people of even skill there are random and uncontrollable elements like bloom messing with the balance.

The TU isn’t gonna create some magical environment where bad players get worse because they’re already as bad as it gets, the TU will just improve the balance of the gameplay, something which everyone benefits from.

If anything bad players will get better.

665

> I do agree with what you posted. It is pretty annoying when you get killed by someone who you know is worse than you.
>
> However…
>
> I think you are missing the point that is trying to be made when 343i and Bungie are creating and created their games. The point is, they want everyone to be able to enjoy and experience their games, and not just have it be focused at a select few group of players who are “better than everyone else”. If bad players lost all the time, they’d stop playing, and only good players would be left, but the complaining would still go on about the elitist people who are better than some of the ‘good’ players…

You pretty much just explained the main problem with the FPS Industry today, catering to casual players doesnt make for a good FPS it makes for a cheap and gimmicky game that only casual players will enjoy. Creating a competitve FPS will guarantee balance and depth in the game, and thus longevity and good gameplay and a game everyone can enjoy.Casual players shouldnt be babied because they are new to the genre, it just creates a endless cycle of dumbing down games and ruining the FPS genre to make games easier for lesser skilled players. Its a vicious cycle, and developers shouldnt succumb to the wants of newbie players they should make the FPS they want to make to its full competitve potential.

Developers should take note of how Valve is setting up the new CS:GO. They are creating a competitve FPS as CS always has been, but they are adding in a casual mode where new players can play until they are ready for the competitve mode. This is how it should be in the FPS genre, the game should focus on competitve gameplay but also have casual modes where new players can play and where they can implement more casual game mechanics instead of forcing them on the whole game like Bungie did with Reach EVEN in Arena.

666

> > I do agree with what you posted. It is pretty annoying when you get killed by someone who you know is worse than you.
> >
> > However…
> >
> > I think you are missing the point that is trying to be made when 343i and Bungie are creating and created their games. The point is, they want everyone to be able to enjoy and experience their games, and not just have it be focused at a select few group of players who are “better than everyone else”. If bad players lost all the time, they’d stop playing, and only good players would be left, but the complaining would still go on about the elitist people who are better than some of the ‘good’ players…
>
> You pretty much just explained the main problem with the FPS Industry today, catering to casual players doesnt make for a good FPS it makes for a cheap and gimmicky game that only casual players will enjoy. Creating a competitve FPS will guarantee balance and depth in the game, and thus longevity and good gameplay and a game everyone can enjoy.Casual players shouldnt be babied because they are new to the genre, it just creates a endless cycle of dumbing down games and ruining the FPS genre to make games easier for lesser skilled players. Its a vicious cycle, and developers shouldnt succumb to the wants of newbie players they should make the FPS they want to make to its full competitve potential.
>
> Developers should take note of how Valve is setting up the new CS:GO. They are creating a competitve FPS as CS always has been, but they are adding in a casual mode where new players can play until they are ready for the competitve mode. This is how it should be in the FPS genre, the game should focus on competitve gameplay but also have casual modes where new players can play and where they can implement more casual game mechanics instead of forcing them on the whole game like Bungie did with Reach EVEN in Arena.

I can see that you’re on of the people in this thread who understand that game companies should not focus on the casuals just because a larger sum of people might buy their game just because it’s easy.

667

> Bloom actually works very, very well at the lower skill levels, even with the DMR.

Actually no it doesn’t. Not in its current form anyway. Just read the Halo Bulletin from last week. 343 pretty bluntly said that the Bloom didn’t serve its purpose, there’s really no point in defending Bloom now. It is changing and there’s nothing anyone can really do about that, other than give feedback or complain.

From what I understand, 343 is testing Bloom with a few changes to it that seem to work well from what the Halo Bulletin implied. I’m interested to see how that plays out and I’m hoping that it works well. But to say that Bloom works very VERY well right now is insane.

668

> > Bloom actually works very, very well at the lower skill levels, even with the DMR.
>
> Actually no it doesn’t. Not in its current form anyway. Just read the Halo Bulletin from last week. 343 pretty bluntly said that the Bloom didn’t serve its purpose, there’s really no point in defending Bloom now. It is changing and there’s nothing anyone can really do about that, other than give feedback or complain.
>
> From what I understand, 343 is testing Bloom with a few changes to it that seem to work well from what the Halo Bulletin implied. I’m interested to see how that plays out and I’m hoping that it works well. But to say that Bloom works very VERY well right now is insane.

i think the opposite is basically true. when lower skill level player uses the DMR, they often times dont know when to pace, and when not to, or even that pacing does anything at all. as a result we see wide-spread spamming, and ignorant players re-enforcing the same mistakes time and time again.

669

> i think the opposite is basically true. when lower skill level player uses the DMR, they often times dont know when to pace, and when not to, or even that pacing does anything at all. as a result we see wide-spread spamming, and ignorant players re-enforcing the same mistakes time and time again.

Dude, I love ya and normally I agree with you. However I feel at this empasse this is not so. Sure the ignorant players will spam, but I have personally experimented with this. Pacing shots and adjusting aim is preferable, but 9/10 times if you spam and allow the reticle to expand the bullet magnetism does most of the job, then pace your final shot for the kill.
This. Sucks.
343 is talking about reducing the bloom to prevent this, but only by about 10-15%. What they found was the reticle is not as large, so the spread is tighter. A spread reduced by that much means that we will actually have to keep the weapon at least aimed closer to the person to land these first couple shots, even if spamming. Aim will take more of a precedence here, but spamming will most likely still occur.

670

> > i think the opposite is basically true. when lower skill level player uses the DMR, they often times dont know when to pace, and when not to, or even that pacing does anything at all. as a result we see wide-spread spamming, and ignorant players re-enforcing the same mistakes time and time again.
>
> Dude, I love ya and normally I agree with you. However I feel at this empasse this is not so. Sure the ignorant players will spam, but I have personally experimented with this. Pacing shots and adjusting aim is preferable, but 9/10 times if you spam and allow the reticle to expand the bullet magnetism does most of the job, then pace your final shot for the kill.
> This. Sucks.
> 343 is talking about reducing the bloom to prevent this, but only by about 10-15%. What they found was the reticle is not as large, so the spread is tighter. A spread reduced by that much means that we will actually have to keep the weapon at least aimed closer to the person to land these first couple shots, even if spamming. Aim will take more of a precedence here, but spamming will most likely still occur.

i agree. the goal should be either

1.) remove spamming entirely by removing bloom entirely. (everyone shoots at same pace, always, just like the BR, or pistol.)

2.) punish spamming heavily (by using MORE percent on their modifier). using LESS bloom seems like the OPPOSITE of what we want, to be completely frank. i, too, am worried about this quite a bit. sure, it will make aiming matter. if they use less % here, they would have to pair it with LOTS more movementspeed, AND instant turn acceleration (so you always run full speed, never accelerate, making strafing more effective and not sluggish), or it will not work to its potential.

PARAMOUNT is the kill time also. the long kill times already feel the game feel incredibly slow, limiting players extensively. if the kill time for using a greater percent (to punish spamming sufficiently) makes the kill times LONGER, it would be making an already big issue even worse.

343 can inherently fail in 2 regards. 1 being that they might make the kill times longer (epic fail XD), and the other would be so that they dont punish spamming, but make you have to aim a bit more. the latter is less of a problem because at least they have to aim, and you should be able to more easily out-skill them with strafing + aim + cadence a lot easier than when strafing did nothing with watermelon reticules.

671

After reading only the thread title, I can’t for the life of me guess how this is on page 45.

672

> After reading only the thread title, I can’t for the life of me guess how this is on page 45.

tbh the threads title is pretty de-railing.

its not the skilled player should win 100% of the time, its the person who performs better.

these are different because you can label 1 player as ‘better’, with ease (most of the time :P), but if he gets out played thats that. he wont win 100% of the time because he isnt perfect (regardless of how good he is, he’ll still die on occasion).

its the times when people perform well… stupidly, and are rewarded which most people have beef with. thats what this thread has mostly been about i’d say :stuck_out_tongue:

673

> > After reading only the thread title, I can’t for the life of me guess how this is on page 45.
>
> tbh the threads title is pretty de-railing.
>
> its not the skilled player should win 100% of the time, its the person who performs better.
>
> these are different because you can label 1 player as ‘better’, with ease (most of the time :P), but if he gets out played thats that. he wont win 100% of the time because he isnt perfect (regardless of how good he is, he’ll still die on occasion).
>
> its the times when people perform well… stupidly, and are rewarded which most people have beef with. thats what this thread has mostly been about i’d say :stuck_out_tongue:

OMG YOU FLAMEZORZ ON MAI TRED TAITOL

IMMA FLAMEZ U BACKZ

YURR… NOT SO COOL ANYMOAR

also, it’s common sense that good players don’t win 100% of the time, there was no need explaining that :stuck_out_tongue:
But my point still is that there should not be random factors in the game that make less skilled players win from good players because of a game mechanic that isn’t implemented right (A.K.A. bloom).

also, this is on page 45, because IM A BAWSBAWSBAWSBAWSBAWS (:

674

> > > After reading only the thread title, I can’t for the life of me guess how this is on page 45.
> >
> > tbh the threads title is pretty de-railing.
> >
> > its not the skilled player should win 100% of the time, its the person who performs better.
> >
> > these are different because you can label 1 player as ‘better’, with ease (most of the time :P), but if he gets out played thats that. he wont win 100% of the time because he isnt perfect (regardless of how good he is, he’ll still die on occasion).
> >
> > its the times when people perform well… stupidly, and are rewarded which most people have beef with. thats what this thread has mostly been about i’d say :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> OMG YOU FLAMEZORZ ON MAI TRED TAITOL
>
> IMMA FLAMEZ U BACKZ
>
> YURR… NOT SO COOL ANYMOAR
>
> also, it’s common sense that good players don’t win 100% of the time, there was no need explaining that :stuck_out_tongue:
> But my point still is that there should not be random factors in the game that make less skilled players win from good players because of a game mechanic that isn’t implemented right (A.K.A. bloom).
>
> also, this is on page 45, because IM A BAWSBAWSBAWSBAWSBAWS (:

yea lolz. it SHOULD be obvious, but for some people its not.

your reasoning, and the OP itself was fine :stuck_out_tongue:

675

> > In Halo : Reach I find myself losing to players who are way worse than me. I think that in Halo 4 the better player should be able to outplay the less skilled players because, well… they are more skilled.
>
> It’s funny you should bring that up. When I am the more skilled player, 90% time I win. My strong suite is knowing exactly how the Designated Marksman Rifle works, past 10 meters, pacing wins, every time. Closer, a mix of spam and pacing will win. Or were you talking about double melee? Guess what tool is meant for those cheap tactics? AL. I swear to each and every last one of you, I won’t stop these posts until I get it through your heads the lesser skilled player hardly ever wins in Reach.
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>
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>
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> > If you are a very skilled player you’ve showed dedication to the game and you should be able to destroy people who are worse than you because you simply are the better player.
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> I can.
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>
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> > In Halo : Reach bad players can win from players who are better than them simply because all of the random factors in this game such as bloom and broken armor abilities (Armor Lock), and because of overpowered weapons who are also very easy to use (The Concussion Rifle for example).
>
> Spread is random. Bloom is the visual representation of randomness that had existed in all the games in SOME form or another. If you are going to whine about bloom, whine about the lack of it in past games because it never showed you your spread in the past games. And broken armor abilities? Their not random, if they can spawn with them…you can spawn with them. Don’t even start about AL. If your enemy ALs when you are trying to AR charge, you get EMP’d and checked into the smack down hotel, you deserve it, honestly. AR charging is asking for it. However if you are DMRing him, you have two options…wait it out, throw a grenade and kill him, or, simply go away. You don’t get a kill but they don’t get a kill out of you durping and looking at a pretty glowing man for seven seconds while reinforcements could come.
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>
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> > Someone pleas explain to me how a less skilled player can beat a more skilled player, and why this should be possible.
>
> They can’t. It’s just that this game is more complex than SHOOT IT UNTIL IT DIES RAAWWWRRRRGGHHH like the past games, maybe they realize it, maybe you don’t.
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>
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> > I think that they should implement a weapon in Halo 4 such as the Halo Combat Evolved Magnum or the Battle Rifle… don’t start flaming now m’kay? I think that they should because with these weapons the better player almost always beat the worse player from Close Quarter Combat to Medium Range Combat to Long Range Combat. I rarely found myself killing more skilled players with a Battle Rifle because those were the players that used tactics, strafed and had a very good aim. why should those players be punished by getting beaten by worse players in a one on one battle? It just doesn’t sound right to me. sure, rarely a less skilled player killed the more skilled player because they choked or just missed a shot… but this is what it should be like, a player should be punished for their own faults instead of a weapon that just doesn’t work well such as the Designated Marksman Rifle(DMR for short).
>
> Oh yeah, lets get a weapon that kills anyone in 3 shots and goes as far as 122.7 meters, only weapon anyone will ever use. Ever. Barring extremely large maps. Or hey, it’s lesser brother the BR that kills in four bursts that still toppled any weapon if it had hitscan in skilled hands. Can’t be bothered to use any other weapons.

I’m going to show this quote whenever someone complains about bloom. Because I feel the same way.

676

Which quote, exactly? there is alot of quoting in that post so IDK.

677

IMHO, if you really want Halo balanced (better player wins…whatever)…all of the basic weapons…AR, DMR, Spiker, plasma pistol/rifle should have the same rate of damage…meaning within a certain amount of time, 2 seconds for example, non-headshot hits should all drain shields the same amount…provided that every shot lands…so that 2 noobs simply running at each other should die at the same time. I’m not going to do a thourogh test, but from the few thousand MM games I’ve played, that is what Reach seems to do. So if one player is better with any weapon than you are with your DMR, they should win, and then you can blame bloom or whatever other excuse for YOUR shortcomings.

678

In every single Halo game the better man wins. If you think otherwise you are honestly coming up with excuses. This is not something that they need to work on for Halo 4 since it’s been this way in Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach.

679

> In every single Halo game the better man wins. If you think otherwise you are honestly coming up with excuses. This is not something that they need to work on for Halo 4 since it’s been this way in Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach.

That’s not true in any game. Every player gets “lucky” sometimes in some way. The problem with Reach is that there is an added mechanic or three that makes it easier for worse players to get lucky. That’s a BIG difference.

680

> > In every single Halo game the better man wins. If you think otherwise you are honestly coming up with excuses. This is not something that they need to work on for Halo 4 since it’s been this way in Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach.
>
> That’s not true in any game. Every player gets “lucky” sometimes in some way. The problem with Reach is that there is an added mechanic or three that makes it easier for worse players to get lucky. That’s a BIG difference.

I’ll agree that it is possible to get lucky in a game, but Reach has no more of this element than past Halo titles.

681

> > In every single Halo game the better man wins. If you think otherwise you are honestly coming up with excuses. This is not something that they need to work on for Halo 4 since it’s been this way in Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach.
>
> That’s not true in any game. Every player gets “lucky” sometimes in some way. The problem with Reach is that there is an added mechanic or three that makes it easier for worse players to get lucky. That’s a BIG difference.

And they added a mechanic or 3 that makes it easier for better players to avoid “luck”(AL, Sprint, Evade, etc)…so it balances out.