The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
621

> > [ when you shoot better than me, you should win. when i shoot better than you, i should win. thats FPS 101.
>
> Thats over simplifying it and you know it buddie every game of halo save swat is an objective game, lets take one of my other favourite shooters crysis 2 its a loadout game, it has no power weapons on the map so the only objective in a slayer game is find a high traffic area and dont die, Halo is very different as you know. You seem intensely focused and well informed on the micro but not the macro and any way, how do you know that adjustable bloom wont fix your problem? May i just say i hate arena everytime I think about my rank a little piece of me dies, but i gave up on that months ago.

when i say ‘win’ in this example, i mean that 1v1 battle, not the game.

its not oversimplifying, its basic, and standard FPS logic.

i mean, if anyone could actually give one example of someone who BENEFITS from the DMR not making the person who shoots better win 100% of the time, i’d classify this as being something that is arguable. until then, however, it is not arguable. its fact. the DMR is broken, and it can be massively improved.

622

> but why is a game with inherent luck, that makes it so -some- of the time the person who flails around like an idiot can beat someone with flawless aim and cadence BETTER than the game being FIXED so when you shoot better, you win 100% of the time?
>
> luck may, or may not be in certain areas of halo. that much is irrelevant, however, if you cannot give examples of why luck is BETTER in bloom, or how bloom in its current implementation BENEFITS ANYONE.
>
> do you acknowledge that bloom, in its current implementation on the DMR (and to a lesser extent, the NR) has A LOT of room to improve?

Here is the problem with this whole “luck” thing.
Yes, luck is ALWAYS a factor in any game. By luck I do mean, however, a series of unintentional and unforseen events. Blindly throwing a sticky nade and actually sticking someone. That is luck. Maneuvering behind an object as an unseen sniper fires at you. That is luck. Evading an enemy and falling off a cliff. That is bad luck.
Bloom is not luck. Bloom (as designed) randomizes the bullet path, however the first 3-4 shots fired (no matter if they are paced or spammed) will hit the target as long as the reticle is red due to bullet magnetizing (this is also why a lot of people claim that the sniper rifle is much easier to use). The 4-5 shot is the one that is truly random, as the magnet dissipates at this point.
So really what the people don’t like about bloom is the magnet, not the bloom. Without the magnet it would truly be “luck” to spam kill a player.

As a note, I love Halo, Crysis and CoD. Halo is the only one with a magnet. Luck plays into all these games, and it has nothing to do with “Objectives” or lack there-of. Halo is also the only one that doesn’t have a recoil effect on the weapons. Bloom is supposed to be that effect.

623

> its not oversimplifying, its basic, and standard FPS FALLACY.

/fix’t

624

> So randomly throwing a grenade in the air with absolutely 0 target takes some sort of skill?

Not really, the difference is that there is no computer generated variation like there is with Bloom. If you throw a grenade it will go exactly where you are aiming every time. That is a HUGE difference and I’m stunned that you haven’t grasped that.

> There’s always been a small amount of luck in all of the Halo games due to a few different factors, which is my point.

That’s normal in life. Anyone can whip around and press “fire” at the right time by accident and get a cross map no scope out of blind luck. The difference is that it was all user controlled. It wasn’t like they whipped around and fired and a random varience on where the bullet went caused it to his someone, his aim just happened to be there. Two very DIFFERENT types of luck that again, I’m stunned you don’t get it.

> You were the one who posted, and I quote from page 33 of this exact thread, “Which would require NOT taking sections from the Campaign and copy/pasting into Match Making.”

Ok I said that out of irritation and my dissatisfaction with the game. You were fine with taking that at face value but you apparently completely ignored my reply on the same page that said this:

“I’m well aware of the comments from Bungie that the maps were created first and then put into Campaign. All of us are, so don’t think we’re that ignorant. Even with that comment these are the worst maps in Halo’s history and it just so happens that this is the one game where the maps also show up in the Campaign. Coincidence? Can’t be.”

Now my personal opinion aside I clearly made clarifications to my view…a long time ago too.

> Here’s how the forums work… If something someone WANTS to be right, they can just say it and the community accepts it when they share the same belief. If someone IS right, they have to provide complete concrete evidence for their belief because the community doesn’t “like” what you’re saying. I’ve done this for other games about many other issues. If I don’t bring the concrete proof, no one will believe me because my opinions aren’t very popular.

Followed by:

> But I believe it was in some other threads where you really went off about how stupid of an idea bloom is… Don’t really care enough to be quite honest.

/IRONY

> Not sure what you’re talking about exactly… Bloom works on most guns, you agreed to that earlier but stated that the DMR’s bloom was just assumed to be talking about and not the entire sandbox. And I’m not talking about other games so… I don’t know what to think about this statement.

Simple, I was stating that you had no impact on my views. I have always thought that Bloom is only problematic on the DMR, but when people with opinions like yours come along and take my view on one gun and “assume” that I mean that for EVERY gun in the game I have to clarify. That’s not rocket science.

> Too bad on page 31 you said that bloom works on some guns and that bloom works the majority of the time… Just saying.

See above statement. Do I really have to add “Bloom doesn’t work very well ON THE DMR” every time for you to understand it? The whole context of this thread is based around the Bloom on the DMR, it shouldn’t require clarification. You are using semantics to try and get under people’s skin, either that or you are just using anything and everything to try and show that you are as intelligent as you claim to be but most of us can see right through that (not saying you aren’t smart, but you are taking advantage of semantics a bit much).

> Much like The Arena’s ranking system, it was misunderstood by almost all players and forum goers. I still can’t even count how many times someone claimed your Division was based off of your Daily Rating. Sucks, but they should just follow the rule of KISS for the sake of their playerbase. Keep It Simple Stupid.

We are in agreement here, I tried in vein to get people to understand Arena and nobody gets it for some reason haha.

> I will definitely miss getting my kills with the Pistol/Needle Rifle/Assault Rifle by pacing and pulsing my shots while my opponent’s spam like mad people, but whatever.

Anyone would to be honest. If Bloom worked like that more efficiently many people would be fine with it. Bloom doesn’t punish spammers enough, which is what many of us have a problem with. What probably happens is that after trying to say that politely X amount of times people get frustrated and “Bloom sux!11!!! lololol” comes out.

625

> > its not oversimplifying, its basic, and standard FPS FALLACY.
>
> /fix’t

Wait…he was saying that whoever has better aim should win and you’re calling that fallacy? Wow the world really is coming to an end…

626

> > > its not oversimplifying, its basic, and standard FPS FALLACY.
> >
> > /fix’t
>
> Wait…he was saying that whoever has better aim should win and you’re calling that fallacy? Wow the world really is coming to an end…

The player with the better aim always wins, hence him using the fallacy of the better player losing.

627

> > > > its not oversimplifying, its basic, and standard FPS FALLACY.
> > >
> > > /fix’t
> >
> > Wait…he was saying that whoever has better aim should win and you’re calling that fallacy? Wow the world really is coming to an end…
>
> The player with the better aim always wins, hence him using the fallacy of the better player losing.

Oooooooooooooooh ok so it’s just a matter of whether or not you think the player with better aim AND Bloom being active will always win, got it (not meant to be sarcasm, I was literally just having a revelation out loud).

628

> The player with the better aim always wins, hence him using the fallacy of the better player losing.

The player with better aim doesn’t always win…he only wins around 90-95% of the time. Although (with these numbers) this means that you only lose only one DMR duel where you have better aim than your opponent for every 15-20 or so times you win DMR duels while you have better aim than your opponent, that adds up to a lot of really frustrating deaths over time.

629

I see someone who is pro-bloom or thinks it works, I look up their stats. Then it all makes sense. Of course I am told that stats have nothing to do with game knowledge. It’s taboo to bring skill into an argument. But should it be? Wouldn’t a bad player be biased towards bad game mechanics? After all how in Gods name would randomness benefit a highly skilled player playing properly? It can’t!!! A good player knows when he is playing the game right, and getting ripped off by piss poor mechanics. A bad player “pretends” everything is working, seduced by the occasional un-rewarded kill, they repeat “it’s working!” Much like the stimulus is working…right… What 343 should do in Halo 4 is making it easy to learn but difficult to master. Not easy to learn and unnecessary to master. Let’s take away the crutches.

630

> What 343 should do in Halo 4 is making it easy to learn but difficult to master. Not easy to learn and unnecessary to master. Let’s take away the crutches.

For the love of God, yes! Please!

I guess I’m the minority here when I say that I don’t mind getting killed over and over by a more skilled player or players. Of course it bugs me, but I know that it’s my fault - I should be better. But that’s the only thing I can complain about: my lacking skill. It doesn’t actually make me angry but serves as incentive to become better.

But if I pace my DMR shots at medium-to-long range and some lucky spammer kills me with his six shots (hit, hit, miss, hit, hit, headshot) fired as quickly as possible, I get pissed. There’s no point in me pacing my shots anymore except that I rather get killed than become a spammer myself. I want to kill or be killed because one of us two is the better marksman, better at strafing, etc. and not just merely because one has more luck than the other. But that’s EXACTLY how Reach is. >:(

631

> I see someone who is pro-bloom or thinks it works, I look up their stats. Then it all makes sense. Of course I am told that stats have nothing to do with game knowledge. It’s taboo to bring skill into an argument. But should it be? Wouldn’t a bad player be biased towards bad game mechanics? After all how in Gods name would randomness benefit a highly skilled player playing properly? It can’t!!! A good player knows when he is playing the game right, and getting ripped off by piss poor mechanics. A bad player “pretends” everything is working, seduced by the occasional un-rewarded kill, they repeat “it’s working!” Much like the stimulus is working…right… What 343 should do in Halo 4 is making it easy to learn but difficult to master. Not easy to learn and unnecessary to master. Let’s take away the crutches.

answer me this do find u as i do that its the peoppe who were between 37 and a 47 skill level (H3) that feel hardest done by bloom mechanics? I might have to pop over to mlg forum see what is being said over there.

632

wow… onesly I think that killing someone is 95% skill and 5% luck+other factors

633

Well we will see with the TU which settings are more popular, Halo CE classic style gameplay a more pure and skill-based FPS style, or Reach the modern new take on Halo gameplay that has been highly controversial with the Halo community. I myself think Reach gameplay appeals to the newer Halo fans and newer generation of FPS gamers with loadouts,sprint, reticle bloom while classic gameplay will bring in the older generation of FPS gamers who grew up playing more pure,simplistic, and skill-based FPS. I enjoy things about both, I just feel Reach’s game mechanics are a little misguided and could of been a little more Halo like. For example, I think faster default movement speeds and more defualt diverse movements for ALL players would of MAJORLY fit in with Halo gameplay better than the sprint and evade mechanics did as loadouts. The reticle bloom should of been implemented better on the DMR where spamming caused your bullets to land outside of the reticle instead of randomly inside the reticle. Jetpack should have been the thruster pack. A default ability for all players that gave them a quick but short burst of movement in any direction they wanted to go but not too high whereas you can ignore map layouts. Thats my take on Reach anyways.

634

Well, when you get down to it the only test of skill is who beats who more frequently than the opposite case. So it’s silly to expect that the more skilled players should always win (and that the game should be specifically designed around guaranteeing that), because we are only dealing with probabilities and those probabilities (however low) may still impact the game in an occasionally noticable way (IE. newb-boy64 winning against an MLG pro because of a communication mix up concerning where the flag carrier is or some other random event) because random chance allows for it (though of course not in any way that should concern you. Again, we’re defining whose best on who wins more frequently, not on if they can win/loose at all.)

And of course, if you find this not to be the case, that the less skilled players are winning more frequently than you think they should given the game and it’s settings, perhaps you should reconsider how you, personally, evaluate skill because just as well as “decreasing skillgaps” and all the rest of that you might just have an inflated self-image that sets you up to the wrong expectations.

636

> Well we will see with the TU which settings are more popular, Halo CE classic style gameplay a more pure and skill-based FPS style, or Reach the modern new take on Halo gameplay that has been highly controversial with the Halo community. I myself think Reach gameplay appeals to the newer Halo fans and newer generation of FPS gamers with loadouts,sprint, reticle bloom while classic gameplay will bring in the older generation of FPS gamers who grew up playing more pure,simplistic, and skill-based FPS. I enjoy things about both, I just feel Reach’s game mechanics are a little misguided and could of been a little more Halo like. For example, I think faster default movement speeds and more defualt diverse movements for ALL players would of MAJORLY fit in with Halo gameplay better than the sprint and evade mechanics did as loadouts. The reticle bloom should of been implemented better on the DMR where spamming caused your bullets to land outside of the reticle instead of randomly inside the reticle. Jetpack should have been the thruster pack. A default ability for all players that gave them a quick but short burst of movement in any direction they wanted to go but not too high whereas you can ignore map layouts. Thats my take on Reach anyways.

love it

637

> Well, when you get down to it the only test of skill is who beats who more frequently than the opposite case. So it’s silly to expect that the more skilled players should always win (and that the game should be specifically designed around guaranteeing that), because we are only dealing with probabilities and those probabilities (however low) may still impact the game in an occasionally noticable way (IE. newb-boy64 winning against an MLG pro because of a communication mix up concerning where the flag carrier is or some other random event) because random chance allows for it (though of course not in any way that should concern you. Again, we’re defining whose best on who wins more frequently, not on if they can win/loose at all.)
>
> And of course, if you find this not to be the case, that the less skilled players are winning more frequently than you think they should given the game and it’s settings, perhaps you should reconsider how you, personally, evaluate skill because just as well as “decreasing skillgaps” and all the rest of that you might just have an inflated self-image that sets you up to the wrong expectations.

And QFR :slight_smile:

638

> I see someone who is pro-bloom or thinks it works, I look up their stats. Then it all makes sense. Of course I am told that stats have nothing to do with game knowledge. It’s taboo to bring skill into an argument. But should it be? Wouldn’t a bad player be biased towards bad game mechanics? After all how in Gods name would randomness benefit a highly skilled player playing properly? It can’t!!! A good player knows when he is playing the game right, and getting ripped off by piss poor mechanics. A bad player “pretends” everything is working, seduced by the occasional un-rewarded kill, they repeat “it’s working!” Much like the stimulus is working…right… What 343 should do in Halo 4 is making it easy to learn but difficult to master. Not easy to learn and unnecessary to master. Let’s take away the crutches.

What a joke… You can’t make a logical argument that anyone cares about, so you attack someone’s record.

Geee… I wonder which failed political party you stole THAT one from…

639
640

Agreed.

641

> At least attacking someone’s record has actual relevance; unlike lying and making stereotypes.

Yes, you keep telling yourself that and maybe one day in another universe that will be true. When you can make logical arguements INSTEAD of attacking a person’s service record, as knowledge and skill are not synonymous, then you too will have a point.

I don’t agree with a lot of how Guy puts stuff, but as far him claiming players a full of it when claiming they like bloom but don’t like how it’s implemented in Reach, do understand, he is right that some of you don’t understand that you don’t like bloom. It has nothing to do with skill or not:

Time Glitch himself said after playing the 3-shot Pistol at Halofest:
I won’t lie, there were times where people would spam the Magnum and get lucky. It didn’t happen often, certainly not as often as a DMR spammer would win…But the possibility that it can happen is a problem in and of itself.
At some point some of you have to realise you’re contradicting yourselves in stating you want a fun and balanced Halo AND it must be the most skilled console FPS in combination.
Yes you have fun competing while playing Halo, that has very little to with skill.
PS: not saying TG is complaining or whining yet, but he literally planted the seed to which will grow into “it’s still random.” We’re being given a choice in the beta hoppers for a reason. Quick kill time potential, no bloom, reduced bloom so we can choose which we like more. (as I understand it).

And again to cover spamming:
Spamming has nothing to do with ROF. Otherwise according to some player’s beliefs, competitive players spammed BR-shots (double and quad-shotting) and melees in Halo2. They also spammed melees and grenades in Halo:CE because they cheated their rates of fire. And spamming is Halo.
OR
You can go with the Urza’s definition that spamming is using the same move repeatedly, regardless of ROF. He claims players in Reach spam their frags and melees, though those themselves have capped ROFs.
You have to decide, not flip flop when it suits you.