The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
581

> This:
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> > So many people, you included, are so biased and wrong about this issue it’s not even funny.
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> And this:
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>
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> > You want some actual changes and innovations to come from this? Get to a higher level of thinking and then we can actually discuss the issues at hand.
> >
> > In one of my courses I took about logic and debate, they have a list of all of the fallacies of people who make bad arguments. I’ve yet to run into someone who can have a decent discussion about Halo’s issues, whether it’s a problem with pointing out what they’re talking about precisely (Not just bloom sucks, but bloom sucks with the DMR at close range type of stuff), only discussing the negatives/con’s of the issue, BIAS (This one is huge), sociocentrism, using faulty statistics (I wonder who this could be!) etc.
> >
> > I could basically list every fallacy in the entire realm of debate and logic and it would apply to you and many other people who claim to know what’s “good” for Halo.
>
> are why nobody is listening to you. Your courses about logic and debate clearly did not prepare you properly because you would have learned that having an elitist attitude is going to get you nowhere…and nowhere is exactly where you have gotten.
>
> Many of us have pointed out how Bloom can be good “in theory.” It’s not Bloom that’s the problem, it’s not even the “it’s random it sucks!” that’s the problem. It’s the implementation of the feature. The fact that two people can exchange fire at medium to long range and someone can spam away and get a lucky 5 shot kill. There is no logical counter to that point. If you’re ok with that as a game mechanic then fine, there’s no debate there since that’s opinion. But to deny that statistical fact would be a poor choice of direction and not something you would want to ignore, something I’m sure you learned in your debate class: don’t ignore facts.

The sole fact I can count on one hand how many actual intelligent posts I’ve read really getting into the meat of Halo: Reach’s gameplay (Disregarding my own) is why I have to have an elitist attitude. Are you really going to try and say that this community has even the slightest idea of what they’re talking about?

Look at the posts about adding Halo 1’s multiplayer into matchmaking by copy/pasting the code… One of the biggest threads. Completely wrong.

Look at the posts about how Halo: Reach’s maps were taken directly from the campaign… Once again completely wrong.

Look at the dozens of threads about how Halo: Reach has the smallest population of any Halo game, when in fact it’s much larger than Halo 3 ever was.

Fact of the matter is, my post are widely disregarded because they are at a level far exceeding most people’s understanding and intellect. That and they are opposing of the major views of fellow forum goers (Armor Abilities, bloom, etc.) It’s a lot easier to just go with the flow and develop a mob mentality and just follow. Sheep.

On to your post, you literally restated it’s random it sucks right after you said, “It’s random and it sucks!” isn’t the problem. When two people can fire as fast as possible and one gets a random headshot and that sucks, that is saying, “It’s random and it sucks!”

Please don’t kid yourself and say that “many” people have said that bloom is a good idea in theory. No one does. That’s one of my major issues with this community… failure to come to a discussion open minded. Extreme bias is like a virus on this board, spreading every day.

What fact did I ever attempt to deny? I clearly listed in bloom’s con’s list I made that it does award players a “lucky” kill from time to time. That’s a clear con of any sort of bloom system in any game. But along with that, I also made a pro’s list. And the pro’s far outweigh the cons in theory. Now the close range DMR bloom needs to be better implemented, but as a concept it’s a great way to add depth to a game.

Alas, this is going to fall on deaf ears for around 99% of forum goers. I don’t know why I keep posting (I stopped for around 2 weeks or something) but I don’t know… Just want Halo to succeed. And the tiny, off chance one of my posts is noticed and impacts the game positively, well that will be worth it then.

582

> Both designs are bad. They don’t exactly promote team work, they only promote team shooting. What differentiates them is that team shooting is only the most basic form of team work. If team work is only restricted to team shooting, that’s very static form of team play because the players are too tied to their teammates to go alone to do tasks that benefit your team.
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> When team shooting isn’t the only option of team work, the team work becomes dynamic. Dynamic team work allows for so much bigger variety of options to help your team, because you are no longer completely tied to your teammates in order to survive.
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> Halo 3 and Reach force the team work down your throat while Halo CE and mostly 2 give the players the tools to do it and benefit from it when they want to. In no way does randomness promote team work, it only promotes team shooting that is a very dull and simple form of team work. The necessity to team shoot also leaves out other ways of team work, leading to very limited team work.
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> People always confuse team shooting to be the only form of team work, while it’s not. There is so much more to team work than just that, that everything is just restricted by randomness.

Reach’s AAs help promote more the dynamic teamwork you speak of. That type of teamwork that was oxymoronically stated as to be non-existing expect under the “strictest” of scenarios.
The very idea of MLG’s play is to deter dynamic teamwork and promote team shooting. It’s why players are meant to spawn with a “utility” weapon (I quote it because utility does not mean dominating) on symmetrical maps.

583

> > Both designs are bad. They don’t exactly promote team work, they only promote team shooting. What differentiates them is that team shooting is only the most basic form of team work. If team work is only restricted to team shooting, that’s very static form of team play because the players are too tied to their teammates to go alone to do tasks that benefit your team.
> >
> > When team shooting isn’t the only option of team work, the team work becomes dynamic. Dynamic team work allows for so much bigger variety of options to help your team, because you are no longer completely tied to your teammates in order to survive.
> >
> > Halo 3 and Reach force the team work down your throat while Halo CE and mostly 2 give the players the tools to do it and benefit from it when they want to. In no way does randomness promote team work, it only promotes team shooting that is a very dull and simple form of team work. The necessity to team shoot also leaves out other ways of team work, leading to very limited team work.
> >
> > People always confuse team shooting to be the only form of team work, while it’s not. There is so much more to team work than just that, that everything is just restricted by randomness.
>
> Reach’s AAs help promote more the dynamic teamwork you speak of. That type of teamwork that was oxymoronically stated as to be non-existing expect under the “strictest” of scenarios.
> The very idea of MLG’s play is to deter dynamic teamwork and promote team shooting. It’s why players are meant to spawn with a “utility” weapon (I quote it because utility does not mean dominating) on symmetrical maps.

Armor abilities do not promote dynamic team work. Only way dynamic team work can be affected is the amount of forced team shooting. This is mainly caused by the fact that most of the dynamic team work consists of player moving around the map and in some cases not being able to directly help eachother (e.g. team shooting), but instead controlling spawns, securing power weapons, flanking, etc. There is a huge amount of potential team tasks that may not be possible to their maximum effectiveness if team shooting is forced.

More in depth explanation can be found in this [spectacular thread made by FraGTaLiTy[/ulr], that does very good job at collceting the best arguments against bloom. It’s all there, even an argument that supports my concept of dynamic team work.

The concept of spawning with an utility weapon is whole another subject than the concept of bloom. Somewhat irrelevant in this thread. MLG has only been deterring dynamic team work since Halo 3, simply because they were forced to.](Watch the best in esports live - MLG)

584

> The sole fact I can count on one hand how many actual intelligent posts I’ve read really getting into the meat of Halo: Reach’s gameplay (Disregarding my own) is why I have to have an elitist attitude. Are you really going to try and say that this community has even the slightest idea of what they’re talking about?
>
> Look at the posts about adding Halo 1’s multiplayer into matchmaking by copy/pasting the code… One of the biggest threads. Completely wrong.

Irrelevant to this discussion since I’m not even certain it’s come up here.

> Look at the posts about how Halo: Reach’s maps were taken directly from the campaign… Once again completely wrong.

Most of us agree that they were made for Multi Player and then integrated into the Campaign from a design standpoint, but that doesn’t change that this is the least preferred map rotation in Halo’s history.

> Look at the dozens of threads about how Halo: Reach has the smallest population of any Halo game, when in fact it’s much larger than Halo 3 ever was.

Again, irrelevent to this discussion so I see no reason to bring it up or even reply.

> Fact of the matter is, my post are widely disregarded because they are at a level far exceeding most people’s understanding and intellect. That and they are opposing of the major views of fellow forum goers (Armor Abilities, bloom, etc.) It’s a lot easier to just go with the flow and develop a mob mentality and just follow. Sheep.

Again, that is why people don’t listen to you. Nobody like’s a “know-it-all” and you bill yourself as such with comments like “level far exceeding most people’s understanding.” Seroiusly? That is a polite way of calling everyone else moron’s for disagreeing with you…and again any debate class will teach you that doesn’t win you any friends or arguments.

> On to your post, you literally restated it’s random it sucks right after you said, “It’s random and it sucks!” isn’t the problem. When two people can fire as fast as possible and one gets a random headshot and that sucks, that is saying, “It’s random and it sucks!”

For someone with such a high level of intelligence I’m stunned that you read what I said and degraded it to “it’s random and it sucks.” I never said that, I simply said that I don’t prefer the system in place. I don’t think someone should be able to pull of lucky headshots due to an in-game mechanic. I freaking LOVE this game and so throwing me into the “it’s random thus it sucks” group is childish and says more about you than your claims of higher intelligence do.

> Please don’t kid yourself and say that “many” people have said that bloom is a good idea in theory. No one does. That’s one of my major issues with this community… failure to come to a discussion open minded. Extreme bias is like a virus on this board, spreading every day.

You must disregard things for the purpose of your argument, even in this thread people say bloom is a good IDEA it’s the IMPLEMENTATION that people have issues with. Speak for youself about being open minded, at least do us the favor of reading properly before jumping the gun.

> What fact did I ever attempt to deny? I clearly listed in bloom’s con’s list I made that it does award players a “lucky” kill from time to time. That’s a clear con of any sort of bloom system in any game. But along with that, I also made a pro’s list. And the pro’s far outweigh the cons in theory. Now the close range DMR bloom needs to be better implemented, but as a concept it’s a great way to add depth to a game.

So you’re saying that a complete diversion from what made Halo…Halo in the first place outweighs the changes? The pros outweigh the cons “in your opinion” and nothing more. Unfortunately for you that opinion is in the minority around the forums at least so you gotta do a better job than that when explaining it. All they would have to do to balance long range DMR fights without Bloom is add recoil and it would be in pretty good shape.

> Alas, this is going to fall on deaf ears for around 99% of forum goers. I don’t know why I keep posting (I stopped for around 2 weeks or something) but I don’t know… Just want Halo to succeed. And the tiny, off chance one of my posts is noticed and impacts the game positively, well that will be worth it then.

That’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinoin and 343i values it just as much as everyone else’s. Just get your nose out of the air and you might get a better recpetion.

585

> > The sole fact I can count on one hand how many actual intelligent posts I’ve read really getting into the meat of Halo: Reach’s gameplay (Disregarding my own) is why I have to have an elitist attitude. Are you really going to try and say that this community has even the slightest idea of what they’re talking about?
> >
> > Look at the posts about adding Halo 1’s multiplayer into matchmaking by copy/pasting the code… One of the biggest threads. Completely wrong.
>
> Irrelevant to this discussion since I’m not even certain it’s come up here.
>
>
>
> > Look at the posts about how Halo: Reach’s maps were taken directly from the campaign… Once again completely wrong.
>
> Most of us agree that they were made for Multi Player and then integrated into the Campaign from a design standpoint, but that doesn’t change that this is the least preferred map rotation in Halo’s history.
>
>
>
> > Look at the dozens of threads about how Halo: Reach has the smallest population of any Halo game, when in fact it’s much larger than Halo 3 ever was.
>
> Again, irrelevent to this discussion so I see no reason to bring it up or even reply.
>
>
>
> > Fact of the matter is, my post are widely disregarded because they are at a level far exceeding most people’s understanding and intellect. That and they are opposing of the major views of fellow forum goers (Armor Abilities, bloom, etc.) It’s a lot easier to just go with the flow and develop a mob mentality and just follow. Sheep.
>
> Again, that is why people don’t listen to you. Nobody like’s a “know-it-all” and you bill yourself as such with comments like “level far exceeding most people’s understanding.” Seroiusly? That is a polite way of calling everyone else moron’s for disagreeing with you…and again any debate class will teach you that doesn’t win you any friends or arguments.
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>
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> > On to your post, you literally restated it’s random it sucks right after you said, “It’s random and it sucks!” isn’t the problem. When two people can fire as fast as possible and one gets a random headshot and that sucks, that is saying, “It’s random and it sucks!”
>
> For someone with such a high level of intelligence I’m stunned that you read what I said and degraded it to “it’s random and it sucks.” I never said that, I simply said that I don’t prefer the system in place. I don’t think someone should be able to pull of lucky headshots due to an in-game mechanic. I freaking LOVE this game and so throwing me into the “it’s random thus it sucks” group is childish and says more about you than your claims of higher intelligence do.
>
>
>
> > Please don’t kid yourself and say that “many” people have said that bloom is a good idea in theory. No one does. That’s one of my major issues with this community… failure to come to a discussion open minded. Extreme bias is like a virus on this board, spreading every day.
>
> You must disregard things for the purpose of your argument, even in this thread people say bloom is a good IDEA it’s the IMPLEMENTATION that people have issues with. Speak for youself about being open minded, at least do us the favor of reading properly before jumping the gun.
>
>
>
> > What fact did I ever attempt to deny? I clearly listed in bloom’s con’s list I made that it does award players a “lucky” kill from time to time. That’s a clear con of any sort of bloom system in any game. But along with that, I also made a pro’s list. And the pro’s far outweigh the cons in theory. Now the close range DMR bloom needs to be better implemented, but as a concept it’s a great way to add depth to a game.
>
> So you’re saying that a complete diversion from what made Halo…Halo in the first place outweighs the changes? The pros outweigh the cons “in your opinion” and nothing more. Unfortunately for you that opinion is in the minority around the forums at least so you gotta do a better job than that when explaining it. All they would have to do to balance long range DMR fights without Bloom is add recoil and it would be in pretty good shape.
>
>
>
> > Alas, this is going to fall on deaf ears for around 99% of forum goers. I don’t know why I keep posting (I stopped for around 2 weeks or something) but I don’t know… Just want Halo to succeed. And the tiny, off chance one of my posts is noticed and impacts the game positively, well that will be worth it then.
>
> That’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinoin and 343i values it just as much as everyone else’s. Just get your nose out of the air and you might get a better recpetion.

Win ^^

586

I think balance isn’t a big problem with Reach, and I doubt it will be with the new playlists. With the Halo CE magnum available, everyone will have a weapon that can kill in 3 shots, so skill gaps between players should be evident in matches.

587

> > > . The fact that two people can exchange fire at medium to long range and someone can spam away and get a lucky 5 shot kill. There is no logical counter to that point.
> >
> > But that’s how Bloom works. It’s that Halo isn’t a one-shot-kill to the head at all times that causes it to seem different than playing CoD or BF. The functionality remains the same. Through bloom when firing from the hip, and by the recoil action when aiming down sights, bullets randomly fire ANYWHERE within the targeting reticle. The skill is in controlling this feature.
>
> If only controlling this feature was the optimal choice, but unfrtunately, this is not the case. I can fully control the DMR bloom, and hit every single shot, but still lose to someone doing absolutely nothing to control it. That’s ridiculous, that’s not how bloom should work.
>
> This is exactly what decreases the skill gap with bloom, it doesn’t matter can you control it or not, only thing that matters is your luck. I just can’t understand people who say that bloom is okay in it’s current state, that’s just unbelieveable.
>
> But what comes to the concept, no one can say it’s bad, it’s just that the whole bloom concept is difficult to implement to actually punish the spammers.

this. once again tsassi shows he knows exactly ‘whats up’.

and again:

> > No, I’m saying you should have been further away from the spammer, thus guaranteeing your win.
>
> So winning a DMR 1v1 requires me to be shooting the opponent from the other end of the map (Assuming it’s a mid sized map)? Oh yes, that sounds really fun and not restricting at all.
>
> Let’s face the truth, most gun fights in Halo happen at mid range, other than BTB. And you know what, I have no problems with bloom in BTB, actually, I have a video where I get an Invincible with almost purely with DMR on Wayont. But default playlists have medium sized maps, the game really shouldn’t be forcing me to avoid every single DMR encounter at mid range. That’s just not how gameplay should work.
>
> Unless by further away you mean only so much further that the spammer misses most of their shots, in which case that doesn’t help me because no natural law is restricting them to shoot at the exact same rate of fire and not adjusting it according to the distance. This is why bloom is only good at distances where pacing is the only considerable option. At mid range nothing can quarantee my win.

this is exactly right. yes, guy, you CAN move away from the spammer to get more of an edge, but in order to gain a 100% win rate when you are shooting optimally, while he is shooting abysmally, you have to be so incredibly far away that the vast majority of the times this is not possible. you cant honestly say that -most- battles in halo reach can be ‘let into’ being long range battles, where spamming never wins.

the majority of the time, battles in reach happen at ranges in which spamming adds inconsistencies to the game. this is what we are against.

588

> > I will actually give you billion dollars if you can give me a rate of fire for the DMR that is consistent and optimal (quaranteed to win every situation as long as I hit all my shots). Seriously, I’m not kidding.
>
> Only if you can prove that at mid-range, the Halo3 BR is a 100% the time 4-shot killer.
>
> By design, the DMR has no 100% guaranteed way of winning an encounter by purely shooting and not using ANY of the other in-game resources available. This was to promote team-play.
> The Halo3 BR spread by design was to promote team-play.
>
> Both are systems falsely accused of being bad for competitive play when they are features used by many competitive FPSs. That the preference is to not have them in Halo’s MLG-type competitive games is something completely different that what takes more or less skill.
>
> And I agree, the Pistol and Needle Rifle are much better alternatives for medium sized maps and smaller. I wish the game didn’t force DMR starts on those maps.

there is a flaw in your argument bro.

the DMR does not effect someone spamming and someone pacing the same.

the BR, however, effects ALL players EXACTLY the same (save host, and host advantage).

and either way, you are just comparing bad to bad. just because the H3 BR was inconsistent doesnt mean the DMR is somehow better being inconsistent as well.

this was ABSOLUTELY NOT TO PROMOTE TEAM PLAY.

it is ASININE to think that bungie intended on making the game so that in order to beat people playing the game like idiots (even when you shoot more optimally, by far), you can use teamwork.

also, this:

> No bloom rewards teams with truly better teamwork.
>
> A big fallacy that people tend to post is that “no bloom will hurt teams with good teamwork because bloom rewards teams with good teamwork”. This is an illogical lie.
>
> No-bloom allows for less limitations on teamwork, thus allowing teams with truly superior teamwork to shine even more. Bloom inherently limited the potential of teamwork because it limited the rate at which players can team fire. A team can only team fire as fast as the game will let them accurately, and the faster a team can team-fire, the better their teamwork in that respect is. Thus, having an element that limits rate of fire, such as bloom, is a clear limitation of teamwork potential.
>
> The reason why some feel bloom made teamwork more relevant is because bloom simultaneously made individually battles significantly less important/reliable which in turn creates an “illusion” of bloom improving teamwork.
>
> In other words, bloom didn’t make teamwork better. It made teamwork worse, but it made individual battles EVEN MORE worse which made teamwork appear to be better even though bloom was hurting teamwork as well in reality.
>
> No bloom rewards teams with better skill and better teamwork while making the game significantly more consistent and reliable. For these reasons, there is no legitimate reason to keep bloom if we have the option to get rid of it.
>
> On a final note, a good analogy for bloom is as follows: Bloom in a shooter game is like putting speed limits in a racing game. Sure, one can argue that it takes skill to have awareness for speed limit signs and control your speed limit accordingly, but the negative repercussions of this, in terms of limiting the players and reducing the game pace, vastly out weigh the little skill added.
>
> The biggest nail in the coffin, in this scenario, is that the speed limits don’t even work half the time. They are, for all intents and purposes, broken, inconsistent, and random. Compounding this with the fact that bloom isn’t a valid improvement even if it works, and we can conclude absolutely that it has no business in any settings that are considered competitive, especially when money is on the line.

while i dont believe that -no bloom- is the strict, better route, i do agree with his reasoning behind bloom being inherently flawed, and the argument against bloom supposedly ‘promoting’ teamwork, when, in reality, it does the exact opposite.

When you get spammed to death, at mid range, think of urza, and CHANGE.

589

as seen in the MLG forum

> Halo: CE is incontestably the most competitive Halo title to date. It is by far the most fun and long-lasting title of the series as can be evidenced by the number of people who still LAN or play on XB Connect as well as the 20 000 strong who continually enjoy the PC version. It was a game that not only rewarded aiming skill, but intelligence and multi-tasking, and thus the skilled individual. I speak for myself here - but I’m sure many will certainly agree - I am still learning something about the game despite having played it for the last 7 years. Whether we are talking about the intrinsics of the game such as more effective positioning and movement or helpful tricks like nade points. The game was the most dynamic of the Halo series, the most punishing, and the one with the fastest gameplay. I often hear people saying that Halo 3 and Reach were more team-oriented than Halo:CE. I can assure them that that is most definately wrong. At the highest level, teamwork is the most important. Thus, one must be able to separate teamwork from teamshot, the latter only being a component of the former. As far as teamwork is concerned, teamshooting is only the most basic form. In Halo:CE a teammate had to be able to manipulate and control the spawn system, nade camo or a weapon to his teammate, win the individual battle to secure the power position or weapon, flank, distract, you name it. Teamwork was natural, not forced upon like in later Halo games. This ultimately brings us to the major determining factor - the primary weapon. You spawned in Halo CE with a Weapon that was effective at all ranges and was able to punish careless players at long range. If you see an enemy, you can kill him, simple as that. There was no artificial pressure on the teamshooting aspect, the 3sk was guaranteed on an opponent travelling in a straight line. Unlike Halo 3, you couldn’t have an opponent simply run across the open to secure the camo on Prisoner or Hang em High then rabbit hop and StrongSide back to safety. He would simply get gunned down. At the moment, I am not trying to detail the various ways a utility Weapon would advantage the competition, but simply how it affected the style of play. In Halo CE, the game relied on the players quick thinking and strategy. It promoted flanking and earning powerups. Powerups and Power-weapons had to be earned by killing the opponent, not running there first like on the Pit. This was simply because the pistol could kill effectively at all ranges very quickly. It was an organic, logical style of play that relied on intelligence principally and in-game knowledge. Not pushing forward on a thumbsick according to your teammates’ callouts.

590

> f only controlling this feature was the optimal choice, but unfrtunately, this is not the case. I can fully control the DMR bloom, and hit every single shot, but still lose to someone doing absolutely nothing to control it. That’s ridiculous, that’s not how bloom should work.
>
> This is exactly what decreases the skill gap with bloom, it doesn’t matter can you control it or not, only thing that matters is your luck. I just can’t understand people who say that bloom is okay in it’s current state, that’s just unbelieveable.
>
> But what comes to the concept, no one can say it’s bad, it’s just that the whole bloom concept is difficult to implement to actually punish the spammers.
> this. once again tsassi shows he knows exactly ‘whats up’.

Not unless we look at your stats. They clearly show you have overcome the majority of the random factors associated with bloom. Your 2.0+ K/D with a DMR cannot exist unless you have done exactly what the italicised words state doesn’t matter. That means your 2.0 K/D with the DMR is pure luck, regardless of how you think you earned it.

We can also look to this past MLG perfect tournament. As further support that removing luck is part of the skill. If you’re at the mercy of the game’s luck system, you’re not good at the game. If you are good at the game, it’s not impossible to overcome the designed mechanics.

> it is ASININE to think that bungie intended on making the game so that in order to beat people playing the game like idiots (even when you shoot more optimally, by far), **you can use teamwork.
[/quote]
**
> And yet that’s what happened. The idiots are not the spammers.
> Hit reply to try again.

591

> No bloom rewards teams with truly better teamwork.
>
> A big fallacy that people tend to post is that “no bloom will hurt teams with good teamwork because bloom rewards teams with good teamwork”. This is an illogical lie.
>
> No-bloom allows for less limitations on teamwork, thus allowing teams with truly superior teamwork to shine even more. Bloom inherently limited the potential of teamwork because it limited the rate at which players can team fire. A team can only team fire as fast as the game will let them accurately, and the faster a team can team-fire, the better their teamwork in that respect is. Thus, having an element that limits rate of fire, such as bloom, is a clear limitation of teamwork potential.
>
> The reason why some feel bloom made teamwork more relevant is because bloom simultaneously made individually battles significantly less important/reliable which in turn creates an “illusion” of bloom improving teamwork.
>
> In other words, bloom didn’t make teamwork better. It made teamwork worse, but it made individual battles EVEN MORE worse which made teamwork appear to be better even though bloom was hurting teamwork as well in reality.
>
> No bloom rewards teams with better skill and better teamwork while making the game significantly more consistent and reliable. For these reasons, there is no legitimate reason to keep bloom if we have the option to get rid of it.
>
> On a final note, a good analogy for bloom is as follows: Bloom in a shooter game is like putting speed limits in a racing game. Sure, one can argue that it takes skill to have awareness for speed limit signs and control your speed limit accordingly, but the negative repercussions of this, in terms of limiting the players and reducing the game pace, vastly out weigh the little skill added.
>
> The biggest nail in the coffin, in this scenario, is that the speed limits don’t even work half the time. They are, for all intents and purposes, broken, inconsistent, and random. Compounding this with the fact that bloom isn’t a valid improvement even if it works, and we can conclude absolutely that it has no business in any settings that are considered competitive, especially when money is on the line.

If that were true, CoD: Black OPS would not be more popular than Halo in the MLG circuit at the moment. The combination of Bloom and non-OSK with any weapon is what drags out the game, not bloom. Bloom itself has been used in many competitive shooters for many years, just not Halo
Sundance once spoke of entitlement, be wise to remember that.
Competitive Halo is different than other competitive games, it is not the defining notion of playing competitively. I say EVO has got that one, even if they’re just fighters. Their philosophy is much healthier for gaming as a whole.
As for no-bloom enhancing teamwork and adding bloom causing an illusion, that perfect MLG tournament was no illusion.
Perhaps it is “Arena-FPSs” that you believe bloom is detrimental to, not competitive-FPSs as a whole.

592

> > f only controlling this feature was the optimal choice, but unfrtunately, this is not the case. I can fully control the DMR bloom, and hit every single shot, but still lose to someone doing absolutely nothing to control it. That’s ridiculous, that’s not how bloom should work.
> >
> > This is exactly what decreases the skill gap with bloom, it doesn’t matter can you control it or not, only thing that matters is your luck. I just can’t understand people who say that bloom is okay in it’s current state, that’s just unbelieveable.
> >
> > But what comes to the concept, no one can say it’s bad, it’s just that the whole bloom concept is difficult to implement to actually punish the spammers.
> > this. once again tsassi shows he knows exactly ‘whats up’.
>
> Not unless we look at your stats. They clearly show you have overcome the majority of the random factors associated with bloom. Your 2.0+ K/D with a DMR cannot exist unless you have done exactly what the italicised words state doesn’t matter. That means your 2.0 K/D with the DMR is pure luck, regardless of how you think you earned it.
>
> We can also look to this past MLG perfect tournament. As further support that removing luck is part of the skill. If you’re at the mercy of the game’s luck system, you’re not good at the game. If you are good at the game, it’s not impossible to overcome the designed mechanics.
>
>
>
> > it is ASININE to think that bungie intended on making the game so that in order to beat people playing the game like idiots (even when you shoot more optimally, by far), **you can use teamwork.
[/quote]
**
> > And yet that’s what happened. The idiots are not the spammers.
> > Hit reply to try again.
>
> im talking about mid range. if you are spamming at mid range, you are doing it wrong 100% of the time. spamming has never been, nor will it ever be, optimal at mid range.
>
> and KD with the DMR is irrelevant because it has literally no correlation with 1v1 DMR battles. even if it did, it doesnt take into account spamming. dont know why you brought this up.
>
> its not that we CANT overcome the DMR being inherently random in its outcome against a spammer when you are pacing at mid range, its that we have to work around this mechanic, when its more intuitive to just make the game play as intended.
>
> spamming being able to beat pacing doesnt benefit anyone reaper. not one single person who gets spammed to death is thinking ‘yes! spamming beat me even tho i was pacing my shots, at mid range!’. they are thinking ‘oh yea, i cant fight 1v1 DMR battles because this game is trashy when it comes to the DMR’s algorithm’.
>
> it doesnt benefit the spammer either because he’ll lose the vast majority of the time because hes shooting like an idiot.
>
> When you get spammed to death, at mid range, think of urza, and CHANGE.

593

> > No bloom rewards teams with truly better teamwork.
> >
> > A big fallacy that people tend to post is that “no bloom will hurt teams with good teamwork because bloom rewards teams with good teamwork”. This is an illogical lie.
> >
> > No-bloom allows for less limitations on teamwork, thus allowing teams with truly superior teamwork to shine even more. Bloom inherently limited the potential of teamwork because it limited the rate at which players can team fire. A team can only team fire as fast as the game will let them accurately, and the faster a team can team-fire, the better their teamwork in that respect is. Thus, having an element that limits rate of fire, such as bloom, is a clear limitation of teamwork potential.
> >
> > The reason why some feel bloom made teamwork more relevant is because bloom simultaneously made individually battles significantly less important/reliable which in turn creates an “illusion” of bloom improving teamwork.
> >
> > In other words, bloom didn’t make teamwork better. It made teamwork worse, but it made individual battles EVEN MORE worse which made teamwork appear to be better even though bloom was hurting teamwork as well in reality.
> >
> > No bloom rewards teams with better skill and better teamwork while making the game significantly more consistent and reliable. For these reasons, there is no legitimate reason to keep bloom if we have the option to get rid of it.
> >
> > On a final note, a good analogy for bloom is as follows: Bloom in a shooter game is like putting speed limits in a racing game. Sure, one can argue that it takes skill to have awareness for speed limit signs and control your speed limit accordingly, but the negative repercussions of this, in terms of limiting the players and reducing the game pace, vastly out weigh the little skill added.
> >
> > The biggest nail in the coffin, in this scenario, is that the speed limits don’t even work half the time. They are, for all intents and purposes, broken, inconsistent, and random. Compounding this with the fact that bloom isn’t a valid improvement even if it works, and we can conclude absolutely that it has no business in any settings that are considered competitive, especially when money is on the line.
>
> If that were true, CoD: Black OPS would not be more popular than Halo in the MLG circuit at the moment. The combination of Bloom and non-OSK with any weapon is what drags out the game, not bloom. Bloom itself has been used in many competitive shooters for many years, just not Halo
> Sundance once spoke of entitlement, be wise to remember that.
> Competitive Halo is different than other competitive games, it is not the defining notion of playing competitively. I say EVO has got that one, even if they’re just fighters. Their philosophy is much healthier for gaming as a whole.
> As for no-bloom enhancing teamwork and adding bloom causing an illusion, that perfect MLG tournament was no illusion.
> Perhaps it is “Arena-FPSs” that you believe bloom is detrimental to, not competitive-FPSs as a whole.

first of all the thing you were quoting was talking about teamwork, and how bloom doesnt add teamwork in its current implementation. you didnt even talk about teamwork in your entire post, which was the whole point of what i quoted.

sundance has also said that "people have always complained about halo, but with reach they had the most to actually complain about.

When you get spammed to death, at mid range, think of urza, and CHANGE.

594

>

Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:

Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.

Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).

In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.

That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.

595

> >
>
> Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:
>
> Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.
>
> Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).
>
> In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.
>
> That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.

This is true for the biggest part.

but lucky kills as in cross-map sticks are different than lucky kills because someone is spamming the trigger and beats a player who paces it’s shots.

I mean, just look at this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc

it makes me sad, very sad actually.

596

> > >
> >
> > Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:
> >
> > Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.
> >
> > Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).
> >
> > In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.
> >
> > That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.
>
> This is true for the biggest part.
>
> but lucky kills as in cross-map sticks are different than lucky kills because someone is spamming the trigger and beats a player who paces it’s shots.
>
> I mean, just look at this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
>
> it makes me sad, very sad actually.

You’re right, SD would never have gotten a shot off in Halo:CE or 2. Bloom helped him live for far too long.

597

> >
>
> Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:
>
> Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.
>
> Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).
>
> In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.
>
> That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.

I read the post the other day, probably deleted because you basically called everyone morons.

Anyways someone already said it: a cross map stick is one thing because you have full control over the throw. If someone happens to be on the other end it’s hilarious. Bloom is a mechanic that you do have full control over but someone can throw control out the window and still beat you. That would be like adding a 5% varying degree of flight to all grenade lobs that you can’t control, resulting in sticks that nobody can really claim as a skilled throw because there is a small degree of luck added that you can’t do much about (much like when your reticle is fully bloomed you can keep firing away and yet pull off a kill even though your enemy’s head is barely even in your sights).

That is a HUGE difference and I’m honestly quite surprised that someone of your education level either doesn’t see or you’re just flat out ignoring it.

598

> > > >
> > >
> > > Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:
> > >
> > > Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.
> > >
> > > Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).
> > >
> > > In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.
> > >
> > > That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.
> >
> > This is true for the biggest part.
> >
> > but lucky kills as in cross-map sticks are different than lucky kills because someone is spamming the trigger and beats a player who paces it’s shots.
> >
> > I mean, just look at this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> >
> > it makes me sad, very sad actually.
>
> You’re right, SD would never have gotten a shot off in Halo:CE or 2. Bloom helped him live for far too long.

That could be true, but you never know if the other guy was aiming badly and THAT is the problem. You can’t tell the difference between bad aim and bad luck.

599

> > >
> >
> > Hmm post got deleted… Guess it’s ok for you to go off-topic but not this guy! :slight_smile:
> >
> > Basically, regardless of how bad the community gets, my main point stands. The skilled player always will win, whether it’s that single match or a series of games.
> >
> > Sure, sometimes there are lucky kills. But Halo 1/2/3 had them as well (Sticky from across the map for example) but along with that ridiculous amounts of help from the actual game engine itself (Disregarding Halo 1).
> >
> > In the end, regardless of bloom, Armor Abilities, the maps, or any of the other “huge” issues the community loves to point out that supposedly break the game, the skilled players will always win, regardless of the game mechanics.
> >
> > That perfect MLG outing by eon instinct proved that without a doubt.
>
> I read the post the other day, probably deleted because you basically called everyone morons.
>
> Anyways someone already said it: a cross map stick is one thing because you have full control over the throw. If someone happens to be on the other end it’s hilarious. Bloom is a mechanic that you do have full control over but someone can throw control out the window and still beat you. That would be like adding a 5% varying degree of flight to all grenade lobs that you can’t control, resulting in sticks that nobody can really claim as a skilled throw because there is a small degree of luck added that you can’t do much about (much like when your reticle is fully bloomed you can keep firing away and yet pull off a kill even though your enemy’s head is barely even in your sights).
>
> That is a HUGE difference and I’m honestly quite surprised that someone of your education level either doesn’t see or you’re just flat out ignoring it.

this.

throwing a grenade across the map and sticking something isnt something that happens that often, and when it does end up happening, there isnt luck involved at all. its 1 player throwing a sticky, and the other person being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

bloom, on the other hand, gives ‘lucky’ kills to people who misuse the weapon, completely ignoring the mechanics -some- of the time. this is the crux of the issue. sure the better team will win most of the time, but there is no reason why someone mashing his R trigger and flailing at aiming should ever beat someone aiming properly and shooting properly, even 1% of the time.

when someone dies, that death echoes throughout the game. bout to cap a flag, but your support man ‘loses’ a DMR battle because the other person spams him to death at mid range, then you die as a result of that, and you dont get the flag cap.

you ‘lose’ a DMR battle at mid range due to the other person getting lucky with his spamming, and because of that you lose control of the new rockets that just respawned. rockets have 4 ammo, generally, so thats a pretty easy 4 kills. the other team now received 1 nonsense kill that should have never happened, on top of getting a new rocket launcher for potentially 4 more kills (or more if they get double kills).

these are but 2 of the MANY examples of how bloom being abysmally implemented echoes throughout the game with terrible-ness.

600

at above post

Exactly. Also people please note the use of the word “implementation” here as that is critical to the discussion. We aren’t saying that Bloom in and of itself is bad, it’s just that the way Bungie implemented it (in other words the way they have if functioning in Reach) isn’t effective.