The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
41

It’s no surprise that the red spartan died- perhaps if he had seen the blue spartan earlier he might have been able to survive. However, with the amount of bloom on the DMR you would expect that it would have taken the red spartan at least one more shot to kill the red spartan. The blue guy got lucky though and managed to kill the guy on the red team with the minimum amount of shots to do so anyways, though.

Yes, this video probably isn’t the best example of trigger-spamming with the DMR. Still, though, it’s fact that too often the lesser-skilled player wins because they get lucky with their DMR shots.

42

> > > > > The less skilled player loses every time, Fact.
> > > >
> > > > Not if two players spam.
> > > >
> > > > The luckier player wins.
> > >
> > > That doesn’t ever happen, EVER.
> > >
> > > Stop with the lies or show us video proof. Two people, with the same aim, start shooting at the same time in a match making game.
> > >
> > > IT
> > > NEVER
> > > HAPPENS
> > >
> > > Get off it.
> >
> > What if I show you a video where the less skilled player wins by spamming?
> >
> > Does that count?
>
> What the other two said, this is just more video proof that I’m right.
>
> The lesser skilled player always loses.
>
> For all of you Bloom haters using theory to make your point, you have no proof of it actually ever occurring.
>
> You are literally complaining about something that NEVER happens.

The player who dies is in the Arena division of Onyx 90% while the player who wins is in the Arena division of Bronze 55%. How can you possibly make a claim that the player who dies has less skill? The player who died got the first shot and got three of his shots hit by pacing, in that time frame the other player spammed five rounds that all hit.

All evidence points to the fact that player who won was less skilled and only won by having an incredible luck. How can you possibly claim you’re right? How can you be so ignorant? Anyone can see that the player who won spammed from what started at mid range and end to the closest end of the same range was the lesser player, but won.

You can’t say, in any way, that the player won by skill. That was pure, 90% luck, something that doesn’t belong into an aiming mechanism in a game that should require skill.

43

The video does prove you do indeed have to fire faster than the other enemy because if you don’t fire 5 bullets in the first place, you don’t have a kill to be robbed in the first place… but who does fire fastest? Ah the decision. Are you in a position to spam, your choice or not?

That is what makes players skilled. It is what makes us human. Our brains. Speed beats Brawn but Brains beats all. When spammed, the DMR faithfully fires 2 shots, the 3rd not so, the 4th and beyond, a crapshot.

Putting ourselves in positions where we are at the mercy of a crapshot, either the receiving or giving end, is not how we gamers game. We stack the odds in our favour with all of the tools available to us. And in a team orientated game, we play as team and don’t complain when we get outplayed by another team working with more synergy.

But of course, that is a relic of a thought. A thought conceived at the dawn of the digital-gaming age. When the very idea that a universe could be created through the flowing of electrons in a diminutive space. Once that could not only mimic the real world, but be manipulated to our imaginations. And now that we can do as we once envisioned, the idea of following through is scary to the majority who can witness it.

As with all things our minds can conjure.

44

> PROOF RIGHT HERE
>
> example 1:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
>
> the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
>
>
> example 2:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
>
> he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.

no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.

45

> > PROOF RIGHT HERE
> >
> > example 1:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
> >
> > the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
> >
> >
> > example 2:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> >
> > he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.
>
> no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.

Concrete proof is often ignored if people don’t want to admit you have a point.

How do I know? I used to be one of the guys who ignored this kind of proof, but if you play the game enough you learn that Bloom is broken. It can work, but it doesn’t in Halo Reach.

46

> > PROOF RIGHT HERE
> >
> > example 1:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
> >
> > the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
> >
> >
> > example 2:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> >
> > he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.
>
> no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.

First one, that was hardcore spamming. If the user in the first person view just SLOWED DOWN for a split second to let it reset he could have got a headshot flat easy. Instead he tried to go balls to the wall…and failed totally. I don’t care what you say, or see for matter of fact, I even saw the red guy’s head in the middle of the reticule, but guess what? Blue guy could have got a headshot easy if he slowed down for a second. But nope! That’s how you lose DMR duels! What you see in game isn’t always what you get. Whine all you want about that but I could have got that kill so damn easy.

As for Snipedown being a whiny -Yoink-, from what I could tell he was spamming what the red guy was crouching in place, which evidently did throw him off, but had he aimed at that point in time and kept hitting he probably woulda won. I can’t even tell much though, the reticule and video quality is super fuzzy.

47

> > > PROOF RIGHT HERE
> > >
> > > example 1:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
> > >
> > > the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
> > >
> > >
> > > example 2:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> > >
> > > he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.
> >
> > no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.
>
> First one, that was hardcore spamming. If the user in the first person view just SLOWED DOWN for a split second to let it reset he could have got a headshot flat easy. Instead he tried to go balls to the wall…and failed totally. I don’t care what you say, or see for matter of fact, I even saw the red guy’s head in the middle of the reticule, but guess what? Blue guy could have got a headshot easy if he slowed down for a second. But nope! That’s how you lose DMR duels! What you see in game isn’t always what you get. Whine all you want about that but I could have got that kill so damn easy.
>
>
>
> As for Snipedown being a whiny Yoink!, from what I could tell he was spamming what the red guy was crouching in place, which evidently did throw him off, but had he aimed at that point in time and kept hitting he probably woulda won. I can’t even tell much though, the reticule and video quality is super fuzzy.

you’re banking on the assumption that it takes skill to pace your shots. it doesn’t take any skill to pace so when a player like the one in the first example has perfect aim and still doesn’t get the kill it means that he had bad luck. the other player had terrible aim and still won. the lesser skilled player beat a skilled player because bloom caused the skill player, with his perfect aim, to missed and lose the battle.

/thread.

48

> First one, that was hardcore spamming. If the user in the first person view just SLOWED DOWN for a split second to let it reset he could have got a headshot flat easy. Instead he tried to go balls to the wall…and failed totally. I don’t care what you say, or see for matter of fact, I even saw the red guy’s head in the middle of the reticule, but guess what? Blue guy could have got a headshot easy if he slowed down for a second. But nope! That’s how you lose DMR duels! What you see in game isn’t always what you get. Whine all you want about that but I could have got that kill so damn easy.

Therein lies the problem. It is possible for the guy to slow down and get that headshot, yes, but the other guy could keep spamming away and get the kill because of a lucky headshot. You just can’t deny that. If you enjoy that game mechanic that’s one thing, it’s your opinion and nobody can take that from you. But you can’t deny that if two people stand still and spam 5 bullets at each other at the same ROF you will rarely get the same results, and for many people that sucks.

49

I’m not saying that his bloom did anything to him, but cleraly the opponent’s bloom did. Irie shot four shots which two of them missed because of panicking, that’s not the point. The point is that the blue guy shot five shots in about 2.7 seconds. Now if you try it yourself, you will notice that the last three shots will come out of the DMR at the largest bloom. That clearly is not the optimal range to spam, still the player managed to pull a clean five shot kill. Isn’t there something wrong with that?

Do you really think that the player deserved that kill?

By the way, I watched the Cosssta’s gameplay just a while ago, he spammed all his shots without even trying to control his bloom and still managed to kill opponents, is that right in your opinion? Should the spamming player be able to get kills against players with as good or even better aim in your opinion?

You literally see spam everywhere when it comes to mid range combat, why? Because it’s the best choice to do at that range, it is the best choice to miss two of your shots and kill the opponent while the opponent manages to get four perfect hits, but doesn’t have time to pull out the last shot when you pull out your seventh shot. It just can’t be like this, exactly why I don’t play Reach anywhere else than in BTB, all mid range combat is simple coin flipping.

50

> > > PROOF RIGHT HERE
> > >
> > > example 1:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AzqwqCaNw
> > >
> > > the other guys shield was taken down before he took any hits at all. then bloom screwed him over even though his aim was perfect and the other guy got the kill.
> > >
> > >
> > > example 2:
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd4syenDuSc
> > >
> > > he gets the first 4 shots perfect then the other player out lucks him.
> >
> > no one saw my post? if this is not proof then I don’t know what is.
>
> Concrete proof is often ignored if people don’t want to admit you have a point.
>
> How do I know? I used to be one of the guys who ignored this kind of proof, but if you play the game enough you learn that Bloom is broken. It can work, but it doesn’t in Halo Reach.

Video #2. Snipedown lost because he was out shot before he fired back and then he missed 2 or 3 shots by himself, without bloom’s help

Video #1. Things would have worked out better if the spammed shots were to the body, not the head. At least if you miss the headshot, you can still hit the body and not miss 1 shot because of player aiming error. Chasing an enemy while spamming is not a smart idea. Pausing for a moment, then sprinting with a jump and sprint-cancel past the corner, the likely hood of a 1-shot kill without being headshot back is much higher than either player getting a win just because both players were spamming each other.
But really now, I count 2 or 3 shots that missed because the reticle was not red and so was not even on the enemy when fired. 1 good shot will beat 2 or 3 missed shots.

51

Okay, okay…so it takes skill to spam the trigger as fast as possible, like in Halo 1, 2, 3.

Look, if a person simply cannot slow down to pace for the finishing shot, he isn’t skilled! He can aim all he wants, but because he chooses to A. Not learn an EASY game mechanic, or B. Refuse to cooperate with it, then he will get -Yoinked!- over by bad luck or better skilled players.

Spamming full blown is purely luck based, however doing the opposite, slowing down, aiming, pacing, has no luck involved in it at all and will put down their opponent’s foolishness every time.

If BOTH players meet doing what they SHOULD do given the range…the best man wins. Simple.

And to the Nate guy, this is true, two people doing that will get different results, but people at least don’t stand still in matchmaking, most spam…I do every evasive manuever possible and pace, so I just win. I win. I win my DMR duels. If I can you can! ^^

Edit: T-Sassy, very few times can a player spam all five shots and get a perfect kill, but it can happen. It’s happens very few times in relation to gameplay, but over time and with all the players, I’m sure hundreds of thousands of these kills have been made sheerly because of time and players, we can get all those clips in here…Do I need to start filming me tear people apart with my DMR skills? I’ll show each and everyone of you, 90% my way is the way and they die. I’ll do it stop all this debating over something that I know isn’t that extremely bad as you all say it is.

And Cosssta died in almost all his 1 on 1 duels in that video, he really only got kills with his team mates. Why? Lemme hear it! Spamming!

52

> Video #2. Snipedown lost because he was out shot before he fired back and then he missed 2 or 3 shots by himself, without bloom’s help

Maybe so, but he would have gotten the kill if Bloom didn’t exist, he had dead red aim at the head and got nothing for his efforts. Bloom caused the guy who was aiming at the head to lose.

> [Video #1. Things would have worked out better if the spammed shots were to the body, not the head. At least if you miss the headshot, you can still hit the body and not miss 1 shot because of player aiming error. Chasing an enemy while spamming is not a smart idea. Pausing for a moment, then sprinting with a jump and sprint-cancel past the corner, the likely hood of a 1-shot kill without being headshot back is much higher than either player getting a win just because both players were spamming each other.
> But really now, I count 2 or 3 shots that missed because the reticle was not red and so was not even on the enemy when fired. 1 good shot will beat 2 or 3 missed shots.

The whole point is to get the kill in the fastest way possible: headshots. The problem is that the tradeoff between letting bloom reset and taking the chance is minimal, you get about the same probability of success which creates those random encounters.

Again, if two people stand at mid range and spam 5 shots at each other you won’t get the same results often, that is not good at all.

53

It’s sad that Reach EVER would turn out the way it did.

The lesser skilled player should never beat a better player, EVER. Take the luck out of Halo 4.

54

> Okay, okay…so it takes skill to spam the trigger as fast as possible, like in Halo 1, 2, 3.
>
>
> Look, if a person simply cannot slow down to pace for the finishing shot, he isn’t skilled! He can aim all he wants, but because he chooses to A. Not learn an EASY game mechanic, or B. Refuse to cooperate with it, then he will get Yoink! over by bad luck or better skilled players.
>
>
> Spamming full blown is purely luck based, however doing the opposite, slowing down, aiming, pacing, has no luck involved in it at all and will put down their opponent’s foolishness every time.
>
>
> If BOTH players meet doing what they SHOULD do given the range…the best man wins. Simple.
>
>
>
> And to the Nate guy, this is true, two people doing that will get different results, but people at least don’t stand still in matchmaking, most spam…I do every evasive manuever possible and pace, so I just win. I win. I win my DMR duels. If I can you can! ^^

I do about the same thing too and it tends to work much more often than not. The problem is I can still fire perfectly (spam 4 body shots and then take a split second to hit the head) and end up getting killed just because the other guy didn’t wait for that 5th shot like intended. I’ve had it happen at most ranges (except very long range like across Hemorrhage or something) and it can be frustrating.

55

I know it sounds like I may be ripping on the game but I do love this game to death. I play it regularly and have a blast playing Custom Games especially. I also love building maps, I usually work on something (whether I finish/publish or not) about once a week. There are so many great things about Reach. Bloom is just one of the few things I’m not a big fan of, but it’s not a deal-breaker for me like it is some people.

Edit: To add to what you edited in above: I do strafe a lot and move around. It’s like what I said above, that kind of unpredictability is in my control. Bloom isn’t, so it just adds another variable that can screw you over on rare occasion. I don’t usually get invested in these debates much anymore as Bloom doesn’t really screw people over as much as people claim. But I still feel that a refined Bloom system (or a system without it a-la Halo CE or Halo 2 - Halo 3 had BR Spread) would be better.

56

Good thread, but luck plays a part too.

57

> Good thread, but luck plays a part too.

Finally! Somebody actually said it. Halo Reach has become, like CoD, a game based enormously on luck. Just look at all of the videos in the links below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VJHP7KgL0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNMbUj5rBTc

And these two videos, which appeared here on Waypoint rather recently:

http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/news/blog/stubbys-top-10-halo-reach-plays-2/106109
http://halo.xbox.com/en-us/news/blog/game-fails-no-such-thing-as-a-sure-thing/102997

Notice anything about these videos? In almost all of the videos there’s this one guy who gets really good luck and one or more people who get really bad luck. And these four videos are only a small sample of all of the “good” kills on the Web that are actually just really lucky kills.

So why won’t you guys just accept that players get really good luck and really bad luck all the time? With the ability to get luck like those people in those videos in halo reach, it’s not hard to imagine lesser skilled people beat high skilled people often in DMR trigger-spamming duels because they get really good luck.

58

> Edit: T-Sassy, very few times can a player spam all five shots and get a perfect kill, but it can happen. It’s happens very few times in relation to gameplay, but over time and with all the players, I’m sure hundreds of thousands of these kills have been made sheerly because of time and players, we can get all those clips in here…Do I need to start filming me tear people apart with my DMR skills? I’ll show each and everyone of you, 90% my way is the way and they die. I’ll do it stop all this debating over something that I know isn’t that extremely bad as you all say it is.
>
>
>
> And Cosssta died in almost all his 1 on 1 duels in that video, he really only got kills with his team mates. Why? Lemme hear it! Spamming!

The amount of times it happens doesn’t matter as much as does it happen. Let’s give a completely imaginary statistic that 10% of all DMR kills are lucky kills caused by bloom. That is 10% of inconsistency that could easily be removed by tweaking bloom or removing it altogether. We surely don’t need that inconsistency anywhere.

There is no need for luck in a competitive game. There should definitely not be that kind of inconsistencies that even as low as 10% of DMR kills were pure luck.

59

>Stop exaggerating

In Halo: Reach, the worse player will always lose. Stop blaming it on the mechanics.

However, a group of bad players will always outplay the good player. Unlike H2/H3, which put more emphasis on individual skill, Reach is much more about teamwork.

60

> >Stop exaggerating
>
> In Halo: Reach, the worse player will always lose. Stop blaming it on the mechanics.
>
> However, a group of bad players will always outplay the good player. Unlike H2/H3, which put more emphasis on individual skill, Reach is much more about teamwork.

Sorry but absolutes don’t exist in this case. The worse player can win in some cases. When your reticle is at maximum bloom you can have your reticle not even centered on the guy’s head and land a headshot anyways because your reticle expanded enough and your bullet happened to fly into the right spot on your reticle, that’s luck…it happens, and it shouldn’t.

I agree about teamwork, they emphasized it more and I’m fine with that. I’m just not too keen on the cost it took to get there.