The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
441

> I think it’s important to understand that I’m fine with it because a slayer game goes more than 1 kill. In MM, it goes more than 24 kills. In objective games the sky is the limit. But at the end of the game, the more skilled player will win, regardless of bloom.
>
> That’s the point I was making there, and here.

that has NEVER been the point guywiired. were talking about EACH ENCOUNTER, not the entire game.

how is it logical for the person who shoots better to lose to the person who shoots technically worse, or suboptimally?

its not. its not logical at all, nor is it intuitive, nor is it straight forward. its a completely illogical, contradictory, and unintuitive implementation.

> Why shouldn’t you separate from your teammate? Sorry, I forgot. Of course you can’t separate from your teammate in Reach because you can’t survive alone because of the lack chances for individual skill. Again one area of skill that is made almost completely irrelevant because of things like bloom and armor abilities.
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> You know what, the need to have a teammate with you in every single case hinders other areas of teamwork and skill in general. Previous Halo games were better exactly for the reason that team shooting wasn’t the only viable strategy. You could actually utilize other strategies and gameplay styles.
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> You’re talking about “smoke screen” although you’re the one who doesn’t see the big picture. You need to open your eyes and stop being ignorant. You should even once in your life come out of your small universe where everything is perfect for you and actually try to comprehend something. You could even learn something in the process.

THIS.

how is it hard to understand that the game would be better as a whole if the 24% that spamming won turned into 1% (OR LESS)? could you give us even one reason why the game would be worse if spamming only won 1% of the time, at any range?

> you still have to balance FF with the change…
> you still have to balance campaign with the change…

yea, those grunts and elites are really going to complain that spamming doesnt work anymore.

“whats this idiot spartan doing spamming his shots? doesnt he know thats incredibly suboptimal for this range?”

> you still are going to have a HUGE population wondering why you changed a key mechanic when they saw nothing wrong with it to begin with.

thats the thing guywiired, if the ignorant community doesnt see a problem, but the informed community does, you listen to the INFORMED community, not the IGNORANT community.

and really. the change we are advising is one that would be beneficial to everybody, and not hurt anyone in the process. how could this change possibly be bad? how is it possibly worse to change the game so that full auto spamming never wins?

> Which is why I’m all for giving you guys a playlist (or two) for these things.

aw, how nice of you to give us 2 playlists that arent broke when it comes to the DMR 24% of the time! what if we want to play big team and have non-terrible mechanics? what if we want to play invasion with non terrible mechanics?

> Bloom is the same for everyone.The DMR is not a weapon for EVERY range (except on your playlist now).

Bloom is NOT the same when 1 person is spamming whilst the other person is pacing, nor will it be the next time you post this ignorance again. if bloom was the same for spammers and pacers, the person spamming would win 50% of the time, not 24%.

do you even read the responses directed at you, or do you just skim them with infinite anticipation of saying your same canned responses that have been shot down numerous times by logic, reason, AND hard evidence?

> You’re the same guys since H2 who bash on people for not team shooting, and now Reach comes along, and just to make the point that it’s NOT H2 or H3, you guys are turning around and bashing on the concept of Team shooting because it doesn’t fit your argument?!?

he never bashed team shooting once. he just said it shouldnt be MANDATORY to success over the games terrible mechanics. how did that not resonate?

> As Josh said in his Tweet… though the DMR does most things best, to balance the sandbox, and force tough decisions on players using the 2-gun system, it can’t be best at all things, otherwise you would just use it.

so… when the person who shoots better beats the person who shoots worse 100% of the time, the rest of the sandbox becomes imbalanced? give me a break. there is literally no correlation between a reliable DMR and the rest of the sandbox. a number of changes can be made to make any desirable changes to any gun. not only that, this change would make the kill time for the DMR MORE CONSISTENT instead of random and sporadic like it is now, meaning people will be able to make decisions based off of consistent tried and true results instead of 'will his spamming get me before i get from point A to point B, or will the game do its job? if anything spamming working on the DMR makes it MORE OPPRESSIVE, not less, because of how versatile it is at every range.

> You’re talking about changing the sandbox in a way that would devalue EVERYTHING else. Why even pick up the RL if you’re going to be killed from across the map before you can get to it?

why pick up the RL if someone can just press 1 button (that they spawned with) to block it 2 times, then 2 more times after you reload? LOL

> Bloom adds more skill. The reason being that you have to think whether to Pace or spam in different situations.

pace, spam, doesnt matter, one beats the other basically regardless of what distance you are away from them (save long range). clear way of shooting? absolutely not. shoot better? get beat by the person shooting worse some of the time (lol wut?)

442

its option A or option B, with pros and cons. if you think i missed any pros or cons, feel free to include them, as this is basically all i need to completely and utterly devastate your stance on bloom being ‘fine’.

option A.) game wants you to pace your shots, but rewards people who do not some of the time
con . players playing the game correctly can be beaten by someone playing the game incorrectly 24% of the time.
con . players are discouraged in engaging in 1v1 battles for fear of losing to someone shooting worse.
con . players playing the game incorrectly will get slapped in the face by the not-so-obvious mechanic 76% of the time, when both players have good aiming.
con . close range battles boil down to whomever gets the most ‘hits’ based on random chance because of spamming being optimal.
pro . ??? are there any pros to this? i sure as YOINK! cant think of any, can you? give me one please.

option B.) game wants you to pace your shots, and NEVER rewards people who do not (spam = fail as close to 100% of the time as possible, at every range)
con . ??? are there any cons to this? i sure as YOINK! cant think of any. can you? give me one please.
pro . person who shoots better wins close to 100% of the time.
pro . no getting killed by people spamming, at any range, ever.
pro . consistent kill times make the game more methodical, clean, and crisp.
pro . you can now move around the map without fear of being killed by someone playing the game incorrectly.

443

The more skilled player will not win every encounter against a less skilled player, whether it is by bloom or not. That is a ridiculous assumption. The more skilled player will certainly win more, of course, but to think they should never ever lose an encounter against someone who may be less skilled is asinine.

444

I still can’t understand how anyone can defend bloom at this point. The game’s flagship weapon should not have any random variables to it, NONE. Gun battles should have chance involved in a precision weapon. The logic (or lack there of) being used to defend bloom is absolutely backwards and doesn’t hold up.

We have yet to see anyone counter the argument that if you spam 5-8 shots with the DMR you don’t know where those shots will land…people are ok with that? You’re ok with pacing your shots and losing to spamming even on occasion? I will be the first to admit that I’m not your stereotypical “competitive” gamer but even I think that losing a fight because the left side of my helmet was inside a fully bloomed reticle and the shot “happened” to fall in that little sliver of the reticle is absolutely stupid and unacceptable.

445

I couldn’t agree more, and the problem is bloom and armor abilities. Bloom makes the skilled weapons, dmr for example, harder to use while it does nothing to a non-skilled weapon such as the AR. Then when you are going to beat him he goes into armor lock. That is a whole other story. Reach caters to the more casual player, which would be fine if it wasn’t like that in almost every playlist. I loved the ranked playlists and social playlists in Halo 3. It seperated the two groups and I hope that is the case in Halo 4.

446

> I still can’t understand how anyone can defend bloom at this point. The game’s flagship weapon should not have any random variables to it, NONE. Gun battles should have chance involved in a precision weapon. The logic (or lack there of) being used to defend bloom is absolutely backwards and doesn’t hold up.
>
> We have yet to see anyone counter the argument that if you spam 5-8 shots with the DMR you don’t know where those shots will land…people are ok with that? You’re ok with pacing your shots and losing to spamming even on occasion? I will be the first to admit that I’m not your stereotypical “competitive” gamer but even I think that losing a fight because the left side of my helmet was inside a fully bloomed reticle and the shot “happened” to fall in that little sliver of the reticle is absolutely stupid and unacceptable.

Actually you’re wrong there… I’ve made the best arguments for both sides. In fact, I think my posts should be the only credible ones because they take into account both the good and bad of the bloom system. Everyone else against it, much like yourself, ONLY focuses on the negative extremes and never mentions a single good thing about bloom.

Notice how you, and everyone else against it, fails to mention that the only gun’s bloom that needs tweaked is the DMR’s. And only for a certain range.

Every other gun, it works fantastic. The Assault Rifle? Pulsing it at medium range makes it far more deadly, and has won me gunfights against the precision weapons of the game. The Pistol? Pacing has won me hundreds upon hundreds of gunfights against spamming players. And don’t even get me started on the Needle Rifle… Even with a longer kill time, I easily kill players using the DMR or Pistol at any range.

All in all, I think it’s impossible to make any headway to improve the system with the forums. Far too many people don’t understand it, far too many people refuse to understand it, and far too many people refuse to acknowledge the pro’s AND con’s, not just the con’s.

447

> > I still can’t understand how anyone can defend bloom at this point. The game’s flagship weapon should not have any random variables to it, NONE. Gun battles should have chance involved in a precision weapon. The logic (or lack there of) being used to defend bloom is absolutely backwards and doesn’t hold up.
> >
> > We have yet to see anyone counter the argument that if you spam 5-8 shots with the DMR you don’t know where those shots will land…people are ok with that? You’re ok with pacing your shots and losing to spamming even on occasion? I will be the first to admit that I’m not your stereotypical “competitive” gamer but even I think that losing a fight because the left side of my helmet was inside a fully bloomed reticle and the shot “happened” to fall in that little sliver of the reticle is absolutely stupid and unacceptable.
>
> Actually you’re wrong there… I’ve made the best arguments for both sides. In fact, I think my posts should be the only credible ones because they take into account both the good and bad of the bloom system. Everyone else against it, much like yourself, ONLY focuses on the negative extremes and never mentions a single good thing about bloom.
>
> Notice how you, and everyone else against it, fails to mention that the only gun’s bloom that needs tweaked is the DMR’s. And only for a certain range.
>
> Every other gun, it works fantastic. The Assault Rifle? Pulsing it at medium range makes it far more deadly, and has won me gunfights against the precision weapons of the game. The Pistol? Pacing has won me hundreds upon hundreds of gunfights against spamming players. And don’t even get me started on the Needle Rifle… Even with a longer kill time, I easily kill players using the DMR or Pistol at any range.
>
> All in all, I think it’s impossible to make any headway to improve the system with the forums. Far too many people don’t understand it, far too many people refuse to understand it, and far too many people refuse to acknowledge the pro’s AND con’s, not just the con’s.

Well to be honest everyone is more or less operating under the general understanding that bloom should be removed on the DMR/NR but not bother with the other guns. Nobody is arguing against bloom on the AR, nobody cares about that to be perfectly frank. It’s the DMR and that is why we don’t bother mentioning the other guns, there is no need to even bring them up.

When I say there have been no good arguments for bloom, I am talking about on the precision weapons aka the DMR and the NR. That goes without saying and shouldn’t need clarification.

448

i agree with you that i will win most of the fights and whatever, but the bloom isnt a visualization of the randomness. its not. the BR in the previous halo titles was not random, only in the crosshairs. it didnt matter if you waited 10 minutes between trigger pulls or immediately after, you knew where the shot would go; in the reticule. whereas in REACH, the shot could go anywhere in the bloom, so an element of luck was introduced that lowered the skill gap. so when someone is trying to pace/spam their shots in any combination, they have to rely on an element of luck, and i think that is what people are more frustrated with in REACH.

449

> i agree with you that i will win most of the fights and whatever, but the bloom isnt a visualization of the randomness. its not. the BR in the previous halo titles was not random, only in the crosshairs. it didnt matter if you waited 10 minutes between trigger pulls or immediately after, you knew where the shot would go; in the reticule. whereas in REACH, the shot could go anywhere in the bloom, so an element of luck was introduced that lowered the skill gap. so when someone is trying to pace/spam their shots in any combination, they have to rely on an element of luck, and i think that is what people are more frustrated with in REACH.

Bingo

450

> Well to be honest everyone is more or less operating under the general understanding that bloom should be removed on the DMR/NR but not bother with the other guns. Nobody is arguing against bloom on the AR, nobody cares about that to be perfectly frank. It’s the DMR and that is why we don’t bother mentioning the other guns, there is no need to even bring them up.
>
> When I say there have been no good arguments for bloom, I am talking about on the precision weapons aka the DMR and the NR. That goes without saying and shouldn’t need clarification.

You’re not getting the point. People mindlessly bash on bloom in general for a myriad of reasons that are completely unsubstantiated in the extreme majority of cases.

The point is BLOOM WORKS. And it WORKS GREAT. Why can’t we look at the good AND bad, not just the bad? It literally makes no sense to me.

My arguments would be considered “good”, yes? I can’t even find them because they got rolled over by the same junk said over and over, but basically what I say is that the entire concept of bloom is fantastic and works in the majority (Like far, far majority) of cases. Sure, sometimes a spammer wins, but the person who paces and understands the system better will win the extreme majority of the time.

Can it use some changes and tweaks? Sure, but everything in Halo can use some work. Nothing is perfect.

Bloom is a great concept that adds a much needed depth to the Halo gameplay formula that was beginning to get stale. No longer is it “Who shot first!” type of game. I can use my own skills to win against someone, even at a huge disadvantage to being ambushed.

451

> It’s funny you should bring that up. When I am the more skilled player, 90% time I win. My strong suite is knowing exactly how the Designated Marksman Rifle works, past 10 meters, pacing wins, every time. Closer, a mix of spam and pacing will win. Or were you talking about double melee? Guess what tool is meant for those cheap tactics? AL. I swear to each and every last one of you, I won’t stop these posts until I get it through your heads the lesser skilled player hardly ever wins in Reach.

Sorry for the necro quote but the thread should have ended at this post.
The less skilled player only wins if you let them win, skill=/=good aim, skill is being able to use tactics and knowing how to use your chosen weapon properly. The ‘noob’ will only win if you let them gain the advantage, they have an advantage at close range ergo stay the hell out of close range.

452

> > Well to be honest everyone is more or less operating under the general understanding that bloom should be removed on the DMR/NR but not bother with the other guns. Nobody is arguing against bloom on the AR, nobody cares about that to be perfectly frank. It’s the DMR and that is why we don’t bother mentioning the other guns, there is no need to even bring them up.
> >
> > When I say there have been no good arguments for bloom, I am talking about on the precision weapons aka the DMR and the NR. That goes without saying and shouldn’t need clarification.
>
> You’re not getting the point. People mindlessly bash on bloom in general for a myriad of reasons that are completely unsubstantiated in the extreme majority of cases.
>
> The point is BLOOM WORKS. And it WORKS GREAT. Why can’t we look at the good AND bad, not just the bad? It literally makes no sense to me.
>
> My arguments would be considered “good”, yes? I can’t even find them because they got rolled over by the same junk said over and over, but basically what I say is that the entire concept of bloom is fantastic and works in the majority (Like far, far majority) of cases. Sure, sometimes a spammer wins, but the person who paces and understands the system better will win the extreme majority of the time.
>
> Can it use some changes and tweaks? Sure, but everything in Halo can use some work. Nothing is perfect.
>
> Bloom is a great concept that adds a much needed depth to the Halo gameplay formula that was beginning to get stale. No longer is it “Who shot first!” type of game. I can use my own skills to win against someone, even at a huge disadvantage to being ambushed.

yea, it can work, i dont think anyone is debating that. i bet natetendo just realizes that its a lot ‘safer’ to wish for no bloom than to wish for bloom being tweaked to work optimally, especially considering how bungie EPIC dropped the ball with bloom in reach on the DMR.

and the reason no one really mentions other weapons when they talk about bloom is because there isnt a problem with those weapons.

the only guns that bloom is bad on are the DMR, and, to a lesser extent, the NR. other than that its pretty spot on.

with the AR, however, i’d like to see pulse firing make the gun especially better than just holding down the trigger and never worrying about the bloomed shots. currently with the AR you really dont need to pulse your shots because it only helps a LITTLE bit. sure it will help with distance, but only if they arent firing back with a pistol / DMR / NR, which is few and far between; especially considering when you are burst firing from far away it takes about a million seconds to kill them, so they just dip out around a corner with ease.

i think with the AR’s bloom being tweaked to accommodate an optimal fire rate of ~.5 seconds of holding down the trigger, then ~.2 seconds of waiting for reset, then ~.5 seconds of holding down the trigger, etc. the gun would take a lot more skill, and reward more skillful play, instead of the ‘hold trigger + aim’ mentality the AR has had in the past 4 halo games. i’d be super cool to see an AR that actually rewarded skillful play in a future halo game (or reach :P).

453

I don’t care too much about bloom as it is, because I pace my shots and win the majority of the time. If there was to be a change to the bloom system, I would suggest that every shot should land on the edge of the expanding reticle. That way, spammers would never win unless at point blank.

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> > Well to be honest everyone is more or less operating under the general understanding that bloom should be removed on the DMR/NR but not bother with the other guns. Nobody is arguing against bloom on the AR, nobody cares about that to be perfectly frank. It’s the DMR and that is why we don’t bother mentioning the other guns, there is no need to even bring them up.
> >
> > When I say there have been no good arguments for bloom, I am talking about on the precision weapons aka the DMR and the NR. That goes without saying and shouldn’t need clarification.
>
> You’re not getting the point. People mindlessly bash on bloom in general for a myriad of reasons that are completely unsubstantiated in the extreme majority of cases.
>
> The point is BLOOM WORKS. And it WORKS GREAT. Why can’t we look at the good AND bad, not just the bad? It literally makes no sense to me.
>
> My arguments would be considered “good”, yes? I can’t even find them because they got rolled over by the same junk said over and over, but basically what I say is that the entire concept of bloom is fantastic and works in the majority (Like far, far majority) of cases. Sure, sometimes a spammer wins, but the person who paces and understands the system better will win the extreme majority of the time.
>
> Can it use some changes and tweaks? Sure, but everything in Halo can use some work. Nothing is perfect.
>
> Bloom is a great concept that adds a much needed depth to the Halo gameplay formula that was beginning to get stale. No longer is it “Who shot first!” type of game. I can use my own skills to win against someone, even at a huge disadvantage to being ambushed.

Bloom may work but it offers chances for lucky, undeserved kills and that is where people have a problem. It make work great on some guns, but honestly it doesn’t work very well on the DMR. It’s actually pretty poor and I don’t think it is wise to accept a mechanic just because it has a few good points. The bad outweighs the good in this case. In no situation should a player be allowed to get lucky kills when they don’t deserve them.

It may work the majority of the time, but it’s those other times that it’s bad. And if bloom was taken out completely, that majority would become “always” and thus the problem would be completely resolved and hardly anyone would notice since spamming is the norm anyways (just watch MLG).

455

> > > Well to be honest everyone is more or less operating under the general understanding that bloom should be removed on the DMR/NR but not bother with the other guns. Nobody is arguing against bloom on the AR, nobody cares about that to be perfectly frank. It’s the DMR and that is why we don’t bother mentioning the other guns, there is no need to even bring them up.
> > >
> > > When I say there have been no good arguments for bloom, I am talking about on the precision weapons aka the DMR and the NR. That goes without saying and shouldn’t need clarification.
> >
> > You’re not getting the point. People mindlessly bash on bloom in general for a myriad of reasons that are completely unsubstantiated in the extreme majority of cases.
> >
> > The point is BLOOM WORKS. And it WORKS GREAT. Why can’t we look at the good AND bad, not just the bad? It literally makes no sense to me.
> >
> > My arguments would be considered “good”, yes? I can’t even find them because they got rolled over by the same junk said over and over, but basically what I say is that the entire concept of bloom is fantastic and works in the majority (Like far, far majority) of cases. Sure, sometimes a spammer wins, but the person who paces and understands the system better will win the extreme majority of the time.
> >
> > Can it use some changes and tweaks? Sure, but everything in Halo can use some work. Nothing is perfect.
> >
> > Bloom is a great concept that adds a much needed depth to the Halo gameplay formula that was beginning to get stale. No longer is it “Who shot first!” type of game. I can use my own skills to win against someone, even at a huge disadvantage to being ambushed.
>
> Bloom may work but it offers chances for lucky, undeserved kills and that is where people have a problem. It make work great on some guns, but honestly it doesn’t work very well on the DMR. It’s actually pretty poor and I don’t think it is wise to accept a mechanic just because it has a few good points. The bad outweighs the good in this case. In no situation should a player be allowed to get lucky kills when they don’t deserve them.
>
> It may work the majority of the time, but it’s those other times that it’s bad. And if bloom was taken out completely, that majority would become “always” and thus the problem would be completely resolved and hardly anyone would notice since spamming is the norm anyways (just watch MLG).

any ‘luck’ factor in bloom is poorly implemented bloom. bloom itself is a phenomenal concept, one that could be tweaked to make the person who shoots better win 100% of the time (or at least damn close to 100%, more like 99.9%).

they need to make spamming awful, at every range, for this to work though.

456

If you consistently are getting out killed by less-skilled players, I think it’s time t re-evaluate your skill level… Do I find it harder to stay alive in Reach? Well yes I do, but I’m still able to outperform most other players.

457

> Bloom adds more skill. The reason being that you have to think whether to Pace or spam in different situations.

Whoa, set this guy up with a comedian gig.

458
459

> > Players who arnt skilled kill the skilled because they are at a Random game in reach. and to me thats fair. While I do hate when Newbs kill me I think its just fair. This way skilled players get out luck’d more and non skilled can hope to actualy be able to fight back.
>
> Fix’d.
>
> I agree completely with the OP and with MC iz Rippin.

460

In general, this is true, but even in real life, people with more skill can find themselves losing to lesser skilled people. They call this begginer’s luck. And it’s precisely that… luck. Being at the right place at the right time, ending up behind an enemy who isn’t paying attention, finding a power weapon as soon as it spawns, the list is endless. No matter which game you play, there will always be lucky kills for the less skilled. Or do you suggest we all line up and shoot at each other like they did several hundred years ago?