Uhhg its needs to be like H2 and 3. No Bloom. If you spam the trigger on the BR. It simply didnt shoot and your time between shots took longer. Simple. I don’t get why everybody does not see, simple = greater in Halo.
> I wonder how the DMR would work if the gameplay still used Reach default speeds with a four shot kill for it. It always seems like the last headshot is the most difficult because of bloom, because by that time you are waiting for the bloom to reset for it is at maximum capacity. With a four shot, perhaps the semi-pacing rate of fire would rule out and be more effective than straight up spamming. Kill times, a common complaint of the competitive camp, would be slashed as well for the DMR.
>
> What do you guys think of this?
A slight increase in damage would seem to be the best way to go about it, a single shot like you mentioned. Of course that means all of the other guns would need a 20% damage boost (Or at least to the shields of your opponent’s) to balance the sandbox. Which would be the hardest part about implementing a change in shots to kill.
3 shots is just a bit too short, while 5 just seems a bit too long. It’s all a matter of fractions of seconds, but you can just tell from playing so much Halo 1/2/3.
With 3, it’s too short. It’ll become solely a who shot first type of game, which it’s never really been.
With 5, it’s too long. Sometimes firefights drag on just that quarter second too long and it adds up over time.
4 definitely is the best. Still time to react, but not too long to drag out.
The Title Update will be discussed pretty in-depth though come Halofest. I hope the default Reach gameplay gets some work as well as the Classic playlists. It’s just impossible to know right now from what we’ve heard though.
Something like that massive of a change may not be in their realm of possiblities this late in the game’s life cycle, but who knows. There are about 3 major issues that need worked on though.
- Banshee. Unlimited flipping and Banshee Bomb need fixed.
- DMR’s bloom needs the most work, but other guns could use tweaks too.
- Increase in base damage of all guns to the equivalent of a 4 shot kill from the DMR (Least likely, but we can hope)
There are more but I can’t think of them right now… Maybe around 6-7 major issues that pretty much everyone can agree on that needs changed. And I mean realistic things, not removing bloom completely or removing all AA’s.
> Hey, you wanna do it wrong, that’s up to you.
lol i dont even know what you are talking about. why do you expect people to know what the word ‘it’ means when its the very first thing you say and you dont quote anything specifically?
> If your target is in the reticule, pull the trigger. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.
the concept isnt hard to grasp at all. the difference, however, is that i understand how it works while you do not.
yes, you fire if your reticule is the same size, or smaller than your target. if you do this you are guaranteed a hit with that bullet.
the things you dont seem to understand are:
1.) at mid range spamming is NOT optimal, its actually basically STUPID to spam at mid range because its not even remotely close to being optimal.
2.) even if you fire perfectly, and land all of your shots, if you are not firing at FULL AUTO SPAM CADENCE (firing stupidly) you can STILL BE BEATEN BY PEOPLE WHO SPAM.
3.) since spamming is basically straight up TERRIBLE at mid range, its completely CONTRADICTORY for the game to ENCOURAGE pacing your shots and observing the mechanics, but also REWARD PEOPLE WHO MAKE NO ATTEMPT TO DO SO.
4.) when someone is spamming, and they beat someone pacing, they just won the battle by shooting worse. this is neither logical, nor intuitive.
a hard concept indeed.
> If you miss, then you should have waited longer/gotten closer/had better aim.
thats the problem guywiired. even if i have flawless aim and cadence, spamming will always be shooting faster than me at mid range because my flawless aim and cadence will never be FULL AUTO SPAM.
and get closer? how does that help me win against someone spamming me? it should be obvious that not only would you not want to get closer to the spammer, you would want to do the EXACT OPPOSITE so spamming has less of a chance to win.
you dont look at someone shooting their DMR in the way that works best at close range (currently making the outcome of your battle random even if you shoot flawlessly and technically better // more optimal), then somehow make a conscious decision to move CLOSER into the range in which the way they are firing works better.
> If you are dead then know this, YOU WERE IN HIS RETICULE WHEN HE FIRED, YOU DESERVED TO DIE.
um. they are aiming with a watermelon sized reticule. if even 5 pixels of my body is in their reticule they have a chance to land hits, meaning they have a chance to further their random chance generating nonsense.
not only that, strafing // jumping is actually MORE EFFECTIVE for them because you are aiming for 100% accuracy, whilst they are aiming with a watermelon that strafing will almost never get you out of unless they suck at aiming also, in which case they wouldnt win anyways.
if i observe the mechanics the game developer lays out for me (pacing my shots with 100% accuracy in a mid range battle), whilst someone ignores the mechanics (full auto spamming), who should win?
> > I wonder how the DMR would work if the gameplay still used Reach default speeds with a four shot kill for it. It always seems like the last headshot is the most difficult because of bloom, because by that time you are waiting for the bloom to reset for it is at maximum capacity. With a four shot, perhaps the semi-pacing rate of fire would rule out and be more effective than straight up spamming. Kill times, a common complaint of the competitive camp, would be slashed as well for the DMR.
> >
> > What do you guys think of this?
>
> A slight increase in damage would seem to be the best way to go about it, a single shot like you mentioned. Of course that means all of the other guns would need a 20% damage boost (Or at least to the shields of your opponent’s) to balance the sandbox. Which would be the hardest part about implementing a change in shots to kill.
>
> 3 shots is just a bit too short, while 5 just seems a bit too long. It’s all a matter of fractions of seconds, but you can just tell from playing so much Halo 1/2/3.
>
> With 3, it’s too short. It’ll become solely a who shot first type of game, which it’s never really been.
>
> With 5, it’s too long. Sometimes firefights drag on just that quarter second too long and it adds up over time.
>
> 4 definitely is the best. Still time to react, but not too long to drag out.
>
> The Title Update will be discussed pretty in-depth though come Halofest. I hope the default Reach gameplay gets some work as well as the Classic playlists. It’s just impossible to know right now from what we’ve heard though.
>
> Something like that massive of a change may not be in their realm of possiblities this late in the game’s life cycle, but who knows. There are about 3 major issues that need worked on though.
>
> 1. Banshee. Unlimited flipping and Banshee Bomb need fixed.
> 2. DMR’s bloom needs the most work, but other guns could use tweaks too.
> 3. Increase in base damage of all guns to the equivalent of a 4 shot kill from the DMR (Least likely, but we can hope)
>
> There are more but I can’t think of them right now… Maybe around 6-7 major issues that pretty much everyone can agree on that needs changed. And I mean realistic things, not removing bloom completely or removing all AA’s.
i totally agree about it being a 4 shot kill. this, or simply increase the rate of fire to accommodate a faster kill time somewhere along the lines of 1.6 seconds if you are pacing with your DMR. this will obviously take some tweaking as far as bloom goes, but a 5 shot kill with the same kill time as a 4 shot kill wouldnt be terribly bad either, i’d imagine.
i dont think it really matters if its a 4 shot kill or a 5 shot kill, the issue is more the kill time than anything. anything above 1.6 second kill times is just incredibly slow, and makes it wayyyy to easy for people to just… turn a corner… and get away.
> The whole point is that bloom, recoil and other anoyances affect everyone. They should be more balanced, and the random aspect should be removed. Halo isn’t a coin toss.
Basically, this.
> Of course it should be this way, not to be elitist of anything, but coin flip battles aren’t Halo.
>
> Lesser player beats the skilled in Reach because of Bloom.
>
> Bloom in precision weapons if you ask me, shrinks the skill gap even more than armor lock.
>
> The BR should most definitely be in Halo 4.
I agree completely. Skill gap has went out the window in Reach.
> Uhhg its needs to be like H2 and 3. No Bloom. If you spam the trigger on the BR. It simply didnt shoot and your time between shots took longer. Simple. I don’t get why everybody does not see, simple = greater in Halo.
You are completely right. I hope H4 is it’s own game, but I hope it takes the simpler route.
> > If you don’t think that AA’s and Bloom have ruined core Halo gameplay then you are on crack.
>
> Excuse me, but why exactly did you quote a post from many pages ago which I already had adressed? I also don’t believe that someone who actually is on crack would be in a succifient condition to even comprehend the concept of bloom or armor abilities.
>
> Sure, I will believe that bloom and AA’s aren’t detrimental to Halo’s gameplay, when you can convince me that Jetpack doesn’t break the concept of map control, Armor Lock doesn’t give the player a second chance or advantage in CQC situation, Sprint doesn’t increase usefulness of CQC weapons and doesn’t give the player a chance to just run away and that bloom doesn’t give the player with the worse aim absolutely any chance to beat the player with the better aim in any fair situation.
>
> If you can’t convince me, you’re the one whose mental condition isn’t good enough to comprehend such complex concepts like map control or balance.
Armor Lock is a last resort to people who are bad at the game and make very poor decisions. Jetpack should be picked up on the map, not able to start with it. Sprint is a good addition. The bloom is just randomness. The player with worse aim and spams should always lose to the player who paces their shots and has precise aim.
Jetpacks do not break map control. They allow for a different way to play. They break your mold of what map control should always be but it does not break it at its core.
-
Allowing for no fall damage in Halo2 breaks CE’s idea of map control. We know this isn’t a bad thing nor is it breaking map control at its core, it simply is a different branch of the core.
-
Jetpacks in Reach can be toggled in the customs and are not present in gametypes such as SWAT or Snipers where the FPS-core ideal of map control is adhered to (and by core, I mean ideals from games with extremely limited processing power restricting their gameplay to the most basic of concepts because the time/technology did not allow for the fruitation of the dream itself). Reach allows you to choose to play map control to its core or in any variance you wish (at least it may soon even further with the TU).
> Jetpacks do not break map control. They allow for a different way to play. They break your mold of what map control should always be but it does not break it at its core.
what is your definition of map control exactly? by every definition i’ve ever heard of the word, it breaks map control in its entirety when used correctly.
my definition of ‘map control’ is strategically controlling the map. theres more to it than this, however, as a team should be controlling not only the map in the optimal area, they should also be making pushes for power weapons and powerups when they spawn. ‘map control’ has always been a concept of controlling choke points. yanno what removes choke points in their entirety? jet pack.
> 1) Allowing for no fall damage in Halo2 breaks CE’s idea of map control. We know this isn’t a bad thing nor is it breaking map control at its core, it simply is a different branch of the core.
there is absolutely no correlation between map control and fall damage. none.
> 2) Jetpacks in Reach can be toggled in the customs
except not many people play customs in reach… and this isnt even the issue. the issue is we cant play in the playlists that you would think to be ‘serious’, but when you start the game its ‘oh… jet packs… i thought i was playing a serious FPS game, but apparently were playing the kiddy version of this serious FPS’.
jet pack just feels gimmicky.
in halos 1, 2, and 3, you had a pretty good idea of where people would be and what pathways they would take. they could be either touching the floor, or jump height above it. in reach people will obviously be on the floor, or jump height above it; but if they spawn with jet pack they can also fly up to what seems to be 50 feet ABOVE the map shooting straight down, completely removing almost all cover from the equation because top-down cover is few and far between.
> and are not present in gametypes such as SWAT or Snipers where the FPS-core ideal of map control is adhered to (and by core, I mean ideals from games with extremely limited processing power restricting their gameplay to the most basic of concepts because the time/technology did not allow for the fruitation of the dream itself).
map control has never been a concept specifically for only team snipers and team swat. it has always been a concept in TEAM SLAYER because team slayer has always been a pretty straight-forward, skill intensive playlist. in halo reach, however, its a joke playlist because of jet pack and armor lock. its 100% unplayable IMO. when my friends ask if i want to play team slayer, they dont use ‘team slayer’ they use ‘team jetpacks’ because thats effectively what the playlist is.
team slayer is almost entirely comprised of random durdles who spawn then fly up 50 feet above the map to shoot you from above.
you wouldnt think this would be that big of a problem, but it really is. usually you can kill the jet packer or have someone on your team call them out and get some team shooting on them. the problem is it makes the game feel incredibly gimmicky, like it was specifically made for children. it makes the game go from feeling very controlled, very clean and crisp (halo 3 because halo reach does NOT feel controlled / clean / crisp) to feeling incredibly random, sporadic, uncontrolled, and just gimmicky all around.
> Reach allows you to choose to play map control to its core or in any variance you wish (at least it may soon even further with the TU).
only in specific playlists. want to use the concept of map control? pick a playlist that doesnt let players spawn with jet pack.
i mean… i can understand some people want to play with jet packs. i get that. fly around and have fun, its a cool concept for some. just KEEP IT OUT OF THE SERIOUS PLAYLISTS LIKE TEAM SLAYER AND ARENA where it CLEARLY DOES NOT BELONG. same with armor lock. why is that in team slayer again?
I have wanted to make a thread like this many times before but haven’t because I know casual players far out number competitive players and I didn’t want to start any flame wars. The more skilled player should beat the lesser skilled player more than 90% of the time and that is how it should be. Think of it this way, if a t-ball team played against a major league baseball team and there was no handicap or going easy on the t-ball team, who would win? The major league baseball team of course… This whole “fair” phenomenon that has come about is blasphemous. If a player practices to become better at the game they should not be punished for doing so. The more practiced player deserves to be able to dominate the lesser practiced player because that is logical, not making it an even playing field with stuff that has changed Halo to the point I no longer play Halo. The lesser skilled players need to learn to be more aware while playing in the game and if they get caught in a bad spot, they should be punished for it by dying and possibly learning from it. In Halo: CE and Halo 2 I had to get killed by more skilled players than me many times to figure out what was a good route to take/strategy before I was able to become even better than they were at the time. Practice takes time and I know in this day and age everyone wants everything now but I hate that this is what Halo has come to. Just pick up your controller and think about what you are doing at all times in game instead of running out into the battlefield lackadaisically because you should be punished for that and learn from it. You should always be thinking: whether or not you have good cover, there is more than one person to battle, power weapon/power up spawns, amount of enemies dead so that objective work is easier, and map control. I am sure there are things I am forgetting but this is getting too long. Sorry about that but I used to be very passionate about Halo in the Halo: CE and Halo 2 days and that is what I want Halo to be again.
> I have wanted to make a thread like this many times before but haven’t because I know casual players far out number competitive players and I didn’t want to start any flame wars. The more skilled player should beat the lesser skilled player more than 90% of the time and that is how it should be. Think of it this way, if a t-ball team played against a major league baseball team and there was no handicap or going easy on the t-ball team, who would win? The major league baseball team of course… This whole “fair” phenomenon that has come about is blasphemous. If a player practices to become better at the game they should not be punished for doing so. The more practiced player deserves to be able to dominate the lesser practiced player because that is logical, not making it an even playing field with stuff that has changed Halo to the point I no longer play Halo. The lesser skilled players need to learn to be more aware while playing in the game and if they get caught in a bad spot, they should be punished for it by dying and possibly learning from it. In Halo: CE and Halo 2 I had to get killed by more skilled players than me many times to figure out what was a good route to take/strategy before I was able to become even better than they were at the time. Practice takes time and I know in this day and age everyone wants everything now but I hate that this is what Halo has come to. Just pick up your controller and think about what you are doing at all times in game instead of running out into the battlefield lackadaisically because you should be punished for that and learn from it. You should always be thinking: whether or not you have good cover, there is more than one person to battle, power weapon/power up spawns, amount of enemies dead so that objective work is easier, and map control. I am sure there are things I am forgetting but this is getting too long. Sorry about that but I used to be very passionate about Halo in the Halo: CE and Halo 2 days and that is what I want Halo to be again.
i feel your pain bro :C
halo reach has been nothing short of a MASSIVE disappointment for myself, and many others. its not surprising, really. when you cater a game to noobs, the people twice as good (or more) will feel alienated. i hope 343 understands its completely and totally asinine to make core game mechanics with terrible players in mind instead of the GOOD players who actually know how to use the mechanics and how to abuse them.
halos 1 thru reach have all had less skill gaps. at first it was pretty steady drop off, but the drop in skill gap from halo 3 to reach seems to be exponential.
i hope halo 4 turns it around. they definitely have the potential to make a game GREATER than ghasp halo 1. after all, were several years into the future (OVER 10), surely they’ll use the best mechanics.
and leave out every mechanic from reach… lol
> > Of course it should be this way, not to be elitist of anything, but coin flip battles aren’t Halo.
> >
> > Lesser player beats the skilled in Reach because of Bloom.
> >
> > Bloom in precision weapons if you ask me, shrinks the skill gap even more than armor lock.
> >
> > The BR should most definitely be in Halo 4.
>
> I agree completely. Skill gap has went out the window in Reach.
QFT
> > > If you don’t think that AA’s and Bloom have ruined core Halo gameplay then you are on crack.
> >
> > Excuse me, but why exactly did you quote a post from many pages ago which I already had adressed? I also don’t believe that someone who actually is on crack would be in a succifient condition to even comprehend the concept of bloom or armor abilities.
> >
> > Sure, I will believe that bloom and AA’s aren’t detrimental to Halo’s gameplay, when you can convince me that Jetpack doesn’t break the concept of map control, Armor Lock doesn’t give the player a second chance or advantage in CQC situation, Sprint doesn’t increase usefulness of CQC weapons and doesn’t give the player a chance to just run away and that bloom doesn’t give the player with the worse aim absolutely any chance to beat the player with the better aim in any fair situation.
> >
> > If you can’t convince me, you’re the one whose mental condition isn’t good enough to comprehend such complex concepts like map control or balance.
>
> Armor Lock is a last resort to people who are bad at the game and make very poor decisions. Jetpack should be picked up on the map, not able to start with it. Sprint is a good addition. The bloom is just randomness. The player with worse aim and spams should always lose to the player who paces their shots and has precise aim.
Oh, now I got it. The first time I read your post, I didn’t notice the “don’t”. No wonder why it seemed so odd. I apologize. Although I still must say that sprint isn’t a good addition for the reasons I said in my previous post. Evade is much better, although it shouldn’t go as far as it currently goes, but instead should go slightly faster, but shorter.
> > > Of course it should be this way, not to be elitist of anything, but coin flip battles aren’t Halo.
> > >
> > > Lesser player beats the skilled in Reach because of Bloom.
> > >
> > > Bloom in precision weapons if you ask me, shrinks the skill gap even more than armor lock.
> > >
> > > The BR should most definitely be in Halo 4.
> >
> > I agree completely. Skill gap has went out the window in Reach.
>
> QFT
Even though the BR is very strong, the better player kills the less skilled player almost every time in a one on one battle so IMO that’s balance because everyone is able to pick on up or spawn with a BR.
oh, halo 2. how i miss thee.
enjoy guys, i think you will.
this was the last halo game that gave TRUE potential to the players. none of this 1 button 7 seconds of invincibility do-over nonsense.
just you, your BR, a wide variety of amazing weapons, all niched very well (except for the amazingly OP plasma pistol that could bend 90 degrees lol), and SKILL-BASED gameplay that rewarded TIME and DEDICATION with an unprecedented amount of ADRENALINE and sheer gaming joy.
more than likely we’ll never see this kind of power given to the individual in another halo game. its sad, but i think 343 wants pros and noobs alike to be on the same ground. we can always hope halo 4 will get it right and have a LOT of skill gap in it, but i cant say im holding my breath, as the past 3 halo games have had less and less skill gap in them.
> oh, halo 2. how i miss thee.
>
> enjoy guys, i think you will.
>
> this was the last halo game that gave TRUE potential to the players. none of this 1 button 7 seconds of invincibility do-over nonsense.
>
> just you, your BR, a wide variety of amazing weapons, all niched very well (except for the amazingly OP plasma pistol that could bend 90 degrees lol), and SKILL-BASED gameplay that rewarded TIME and DEDICATION with an unprecedented amount of ADRENALINE and sheer gaming joy.
>
> more than likely we’ll never see this kind of power given to the individual in another halo game. its sad, but i think 343 wants pros and noobs alike to be on the same ground. we can always hope halo 4 will get it right and have a LOT of skill gap in it, but i cant say im holding my breath, as the past 3 halo games have had less and less skill gap in them.
You’re talking about Halo 3, ODST and Reach I guess?
anyway, I always enjoyed that tage, I’ve recently played some H2V too, it’s so much fun! too bad I never had an xbox and halo 2, I still don’t have the double shot figured out, quad will be even more painful :S
“Lucky shot”
“beginner’s luck”
“that was unfair”
“this is stupid”
“that move was cheap”
“you’re cheating”
Phrases like this have been tossed around since the first time I played games on the playground in kindergarden.
Its called “sore loser” and “immature” by most people
Its called “unsportsmanlike conduct” in the professional sporting arena, and generally results in players/teams being looked down upon by fans.
Yet around here it’s considered infallible proof of Reach’s failure.
I’m sorry but if you are constantly being beat then 99% of the time it simply means you people are not as good as you think you are, or your opponents are not as bad as you say they are.
More simply put, if you are constantly being beat then 99% of the time it means you are being beat!
There are a lot of very well thought out arguments about Reach’s success / failure.
Community, this is not one of them.
Thank you for your time.
-Mr Z
You know, I never hear phrases like that. Probably because I use the mute-all option unless I’m playing with friends, in which case we use party chat. That solves a lot of problems. =)
So…If a player spammed 5 shots and killed me while I was pacing, he’s better?
Or, he armor locks and his teammate spawns near me, resulting in me dying?
Yeah, no. lol reach.