The Skilled Player should kill the Less Skilled Player - Community Discussion

Games Other Halo
221

> > > Because they said it all the time in ViDoc
> > > they put out before reach came out. Fact.
> >
> > whoa, I musta missed that then!
> >
> > Link pls?
> >
> > And for ease of use, can you denote at what time in the ViDoc they said “Pace the DMR all the time”?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzeR9PDTbn0 1:22 And just for good measure, quote " If you’re spamming the trigger as fast as you can fire it it’s going to go kinda wild." Wild shots are a problem. That is what killed sk. Not the pov players accuracy.

Got this loaded up right now.

Not only do they NOT say anything about pacing ALL the time, but the VERY next line your forgot to quote is Bungie tell you that YOU control the rate of fire and the accuracy and the FURTHER away you get the more you need to pace, NOT the closer.

I suggest you re-watch the clip from 1 min 22 seconds to 1 min 34 seconds.

Seriously, watching an extra SIX seconds in that time frame should correct everything you ever thought you knew about the DMR.

222

> > > No, if Bloom were not in this game the fight most likely would have continued with the POV still winning because SK is not firing fast enough at that range.
> > >
> > > If you’re telling me he lost, because he was too busy trying to pace his shots and couldn’t be bothered to concentrate on killing, then you’re telling me SK isn’t skillful enough to win when he needs to.
> > >
> > > He was down one shot in that fire fight.
> > >
> > > POV missed twice.
> > >
> > > That makes SK up by one shot and he still lost.
> > >
> > > That’s not Bloom working against him, that’s his skill.
> >
> > I love how you sit there claiming that some of the best halo players in the world loss there respective duels against randoms because of there lack of skill, when it is clearly the broken bloom system screwing them over. Are you seriously that desperate to defend bloom?
>
> And I love how you guys think the best players in the world are soooo infallible so when they lose to a random it’s not cause they got shot first or have bad aim and slow trigger fingers, but it MUST be because of a bad mechanic.
>
> Two can play thAt game.

Regardless of who won that fight, being awarded hits because you were blooming out the reticle is a bad thing. Had he paced, his reticle would have been smaller and not on the target at all, and it would’ve recorded a miss. Bloomed, the reticle grows, and actually awarded poor accuracy with a hit since a piece of the reticle expanded over the target. How can one defend that? It defeats the entire principle behind the mechanic. He was actually gifted a hit while being both inaccurate and spammy. If he doesn’t spam, he actually doesn’t get a hit. The only way for him to score that hit, was to be innacurate and spammy. Think about that.

223

> > > No, if Bloom were not in this game the fight most likely would have continued with the POV still winning because SK is not firing fast enough at that range.
> > >
> > > If you’re telling me he lost, because he was too busy trying to pace his shots and couldn’t be bothered to concentrate on killing, then you’re telling me SK isn’t skillful enough to win when he needs to.
> > >
> > > He was down one shot in that fire fight.
> > >
> > > POV missed twice.
> > >
> > > That makes SK up by one shot and he still lost.
> > >
> > > That’s not Bloom working against him, that’s his skill.
> >
> > I love how you sit there claiming that some of the best halo players in the world loss there respective duels against randoms because of there lack of skill, when it is clearly the broken bloom system screwing them over. Are you seriously that desperate to defend bloom?
>
> And I love how you guys think the best players in the world are soooo infallible so when they lose to a random it’s not cause they got shot first or have bad aim and slow trigger fingers, but it MUST be because of a bad mechanic.
>
> Two can play thAt game.

Yes the pro’s do make their mistakes but neither of the videos contain any. SK clearly out strafed the kid and was shooting with perfect candence. The kid’s reticule was all over the place, in the last shot his reticule was barely on SK’s head but the bullet magically curved to the right and pinged him in the face. How in god’s name can you look at that and tell us that wasn’t random?!!!

224

> > > > Because they said it all the time in ViDoc
> > > > they put out before reach came out. Fact.
> > >
> > > whoa, I musta missed that then!
> > >
> > > Link pls?
> > >
> > > And for ease of use, can you denote at what time in the ViDoc they said “Pace the DMR all the time”?
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzeR9PDTbn0 1:22 And just for good measure, quote " If you’re spamming the trigger as fast as you can fire it it’s going to go kinda wild." Wild shots are a problem. That is what killed sk. Not the pov players accuracy.
>
> Got this loaded up right now.
>
> Not only do they NOT say anything about pacing ALL the time, but the VERY next line your forgot to quote is Bungie tell you that YOU control the rate of fire and the accuracy and the FURTHER away you get the more you need to pace, NOT the closer.
>
> I suggest you re-watch the clip from 1 min 22 seconds to 1 min 34 seconds.
>
> Seriously, watching an extra SIX seconds in that time frame should correct everything you ever thought you knew about the DMR.

YES! They are saying if you choose not to be accurate you will miss which is not what happens in the game! That is their intention is for spammers to completely miss! But they messed up the way bloom works. Just because they don’t come right out and say it does not mean it isnt true!

225

Wiired, we all know that there are times when it makes more sense to spam. That isn’t the crux of the issue as you said in a previous page. The crux of the issue is even in situations where spamming shouldn’t work, it can and occasionally does, and that flat out sucks.

226

> Wiired, we all know that there are times when it makes more sense to spam. That isn’t the crux of the issue as you said in a previous page. The crux of the issue is even in situations where spamming shouldn’t work, it can and occasionally does, and that flat out sucks.

Not only does it work, spamming in some cases actually INCREASES your chances of a hit the WORSE your aim is because the reticle enlarges!

Where normally you’d have 0% chance with a static reticle…now you have a chance to really steal a kill thanks to a poorly designed mechanic.

227

> > Wiired, we all know that there are times when it makes more sense to spam. That isn’t the crux of the issue as you said in a previous page. The crux of the issue is even in situations where spamming shouldn’t work, it can and occasionally does, and that flat out sucks.
>
> Not only does it work, spamming in some cases actually INCREASES your chances of a hit the WORSE your aim is because the reticle enlarges!
>
> Where normally you’d have 0% chance with a static reticle…now you have a chance to really steal a kill thanks to a poorly designed mechanic.

Bingo.

And Wiired I used to be in your shoes making the same arguments. I’m not here to say “I’ve seen the light” or anything but as I’ve played the game more and more I’ve seen what everyone else is talking about. When two people enter into a duel and someone can win because of a lucky shot due to a game mechanic allowing it to happen, that just isn’t cool. I’ve been on both ends of it, being the killer and the guy dying. It sucks when you die and it isn’t satisfying when you kill because deep down you know you got lucky.

228

grrrr, frankie is right. i cant quote on my phone. sad face. going into the grocery store now to get some dinner for the family. thanks for helping my day pass fast. ill see you on monday and leave you with this… the pov had the drop on sk. he used the game mechanics has he should to earn a kill while according to you, sk lost because he was pacing. pacing doesnt show skill, winng does.

229

> grrrr, frankie is right. i cant quote on my phone. sad face. going into the grocery store now to get some dinner for the family. thanks for helping my day pass fast. ill see you on monday and leave you with this… the pov had the drop on sk. he used the game mechanics has he should to earn a kill while according to you, sk lost because he was pacing. pacing doesnt show skill, winng does.

He didnt use the mechanics! It was a wild shot. It was LUCK. How would he know where the shot is going? He wouldnt.

230

> grrrr, frankie is right. i cant quote on my phone. sad face. going into the grocery store now to get some dinner for the family. thanks for helping my day pass fast. ill see you on monday and leave you with this… the pov had the drop on sk. he used the game mechanics has he should to earn a kill while according to you, sk lost because he was pacing. pacing doesnt show skill, winng does.

He didn’t use the game’s mechanics though. He aimed and fired poorly. The game played him. The game stepped in and took what was a miss and made a hit. There is a reason why Josh Hamrick admitted bloom wasn’t quite right.

If bloom is implemented like this in Halo4, count me out. I’m done with the franchise.

I hope Frankie is reading this thread.

231

> > grrrr, frankie is right. i cant quote on my phone. sad face. going into the grocery store now to get some dinner for the family. thanks for helping my day pass fast. ill see you on monday and leave you with this… the pov had the drop on sk. he used the game mechanics has he should to earn a kill while according to you, sk lost because he was pacing. pacing doesnt show skill, winng does.
>
> He didn’t use the game’s mechanics though. He aimed and fired poorly. The game played him. The game stepped in and took what was a miss and made a hit.
>
> If bloom is implemented like this in Halo4, count me out. I’m done with the franchise.
>
> I hope Frankie is reading this thread.

Me 2. Frank. You better bring Halo 4 back to the CE and H2 days when it was all guns and no BS. Come one man! Let’s get it right!

232

> > > grrrr, frankie is right. i cant quote on my phone. sad face. going into the grocery store now to get some dinner for the family. thanks for helping my day pass fast. ill see you on monday and leave you with this… the pov had the drop on sk. he used the game mechanics has he should to earn a kill while according to you, sk lost because he was pacing. pacing doesnt show skill, winng does.
> >
> > He didn’t use the game’s mechanics though. He aimed and fired poorly. The game played him. The game stepped in and took what was a miss and made a hit.
> >
> > If bloom is implemented like this in Halo4, count me out. I’m done with the franchise.
> >
> > I hope Frankie is reading this thread.
>
> Me 2. Frank. You better bring Halo 4 back to the CE and H2 days when it was all guns and no BS. Come one man! Let’s get it right!

The luck factor of DMR battles should have NEVER been programmed into Reach. This is one of the biggest mistakes by the game developers Sage Merrill and Josh Hamrick. Of all the things wrong with this game, bloom has to top them all.

> If bloom is implemented like this in Halo4, count me out. I’m done with the franchise.
>
> I hope Frankie is reading this thread.

Same here, brother. After playing Halo since Combat Evolved, it’s a shame to see the way this franchise has went. It was never based on coin flips to decide winners. Skill used to be a part of this game, and if there is bloom in Halo 4, I’m gone as well.

233

> > so why should the person who shoots worse beat the person who shoots better guywiired? or are you just here to troll?
>
> You’re going to ask me that in every thread.
>
> And in every thread I answer you: The better shooter ALWAYS wins.
>
> Then you disappear from the thread for days.
>
> Looks to me like you’re the one trollin.

this answer literally could not be more laughable.

let me explain:

at mid range (the length of the gap on countdown), which is more optimal

pacing your shots with a cadence or spamming your shots?

the correct answer is pacing your shots, as you will win over 50% of the time (this is the most broad, unarguable statistic there is) over the person spamming. spamming is NOT optimal at this range, as you will NOT win over 50% of the time.

now lets look at why bloom was implemented in the first place: to give players the ability to throttle their rate of fire based on distance correct? its certainly not based on the situation, because if you start spamming your chances of coming out ahead are LESS than if you would just continue to pace with a cadence and hopefully dodge a few bullets then come out ahead.

effectively what you are saying is, if someone mashes his R trigger (completely ignoring the mechanic), and gets lucky, hes the one who shot better, not the person ACTUALLY OBSERVING THE MECHANIC. your statement was asinine at best.

> why should the person shooting worse win against the person shooting better even once out of 100 times reaper?

> Because playing Halo/any videogame isn’t about that one skill. Unless it’s Silent Scope, that is all about the perfection of aim, speed and precision through memorisation.

in halos 1, 2, AND 3 the person shooting technically better would win the vast majority of the time. why? because its only logical and intuitive for them to. my example is talking about this ONE SPECIFIC ENCOUNTER, and yet, for some unknown reason you constantly and consistently bring up other factors. try to stay on topic please.

see, you seem to think that when you take out the random factor in shooting where the person who shoots better loses some of the time to the person who shoots worse, the game will SOMEHOW become broken and having aiming skill be the only thing that matters. this literally could not be further from the truth.

when there is no random factor in shooting, what other ‘skills’ are pushed out of the sandbox? name 2 please.

all im saying is that when someone is observing the mechanic of bloom, and using it optimally he should win 100% of the time against the person who is IGNORING the mechanic because its

1.) intuitive
2.) logical
3.) straight forward and not contradictory

currently, having some of these encounters where the person who shoots worse wins makes the game
1.) feel sloppy or suboptimal (more of an opinion, but one shared by many people as seen in the massive outrage directed towards bloom that you see every single day on these forums)
2.) unintuitive in its implementation.
3.) illogical in its implementation.
4.) contradictory in its design.

234

> thy ReaperMC:
> Because you feel the previous Halos were fun and this one isn’t, that MUST mean Reach is imbalanced… right.

when did i say anything about balance reaper? go ahead and quote me on that one. i have said that i dont think reach is very fun, but it doesnt have much of anything to do with the game being ‘imbalanced’ as far as bloom goes. better words for DMR bloom would be, illogical, unintuitive, or contradictory.

> The perfect precision weapon is the Sniper.

no idea what this relates to, but SURE!

> every halo has been a team based game. having an inherent random factor in bloom, then stating its ‘ok because if you 2v1 it doesnt matter’ is asinine, illogical, and laughable.
>
> if its a 2v2, and you and your ally are pacing because its mid range and thats optimal, whilst the enemy players do nothing but full-auto spam… and they end up winning, is that ok because you could have a third teammate helping you?
>
> then, max the players to a 4v4 battle where 1 team is spamming whilst the other is pacing (at mid range where pacing is optimal).

> Well, it makes sense that a team of 2 spamming 1 player out of a pair that are both pacing their shots WILL win. TEAMSHOOTING!!
>
> And if it’s 4x4, if everyone is shooting 1vs1, then it isn’t 4vs4 it’s 4 times 1vs1. If a team of 4 spams 1 player at a time while the other team attempts to pace or even spam every individual player at once, of course they will win.
>
> Oh my, how dare we prove teamwork works. :smiley:

you missed the point. im talking about the game being played optimally. i figured this was implied but i guess i should have explained that better, so im sorry. let me re-word the situation:

-4v4 DMR-only battle
-1 team is spamming
-1 team is pacing
-mid range
-DMR-only battle
-both teams play optimally by focus firing 1 player, then moving to the next.

as you said, it would make sense for the spamming team to win if they focus fired, but if the pacing team focus fired who should win then? all of their players are playing optimally, the way the game was intended to be played, so if they lose to the team playing sub-optimally, ignoring the mechanic, then what?

my point was your argument against teamwork was both invalid because both players in the 1v1 have teammates and the problem still lies within 4v4 encounters with 1 team pacing and 1 team spamming, and also off topic because i was talking about a 1v1 bare minimum example.

235

Here’s what’s funny in your 4x4 opti-match. It’s a random victor or everyone dies… (so 2 options, it’s random). Allow me to explain:

  1. It only takes 5 shots to kill a player. If 3 players double-tap, they have 1 extra bullet left over, that leaves a 4th player to do whatever they want.
  2. If only 3 players spam just 1 enemy, the enemy is dead before any of the 3 players has a chance to fire a 3rd shot. The time it takes to acquire another target is more than likely enough to allow the bloom to reset.

So really, a team of 4 teamshooting can spam all they want because they’ll never get passed double-tapping a single player. The team that looses is the one that doesn’t acquire the enemy quickest.

Oh what fun teamwork is.

Oh ya, a team of 2. If they teamshoot, they can almost always triple-shoot an enemy together and not worry too much about bloom effecting the 3rd shot. It does, it does a little, but not a lot. Of course powerweapons are preferable. Just saying that a team of 2 can spam 3 shots each per enemy and not worry too much that if their aim is perfect, the player won’t die.

236

I wonder if expanding the DMR reticule by a few pixels and keeping the spread confined to its diameter, along with capping the fire rate, would make it a more palatable weapon.

The spread is only there to make sure you can’t really cross-map someone with it too well.

EDIT: Or perhaps shrink it a few pixels, same plan.

237

> Here’s what’s funny in your 4x4 opti-match. It’s a random victor or everyone dies… (so 2 options, it’s random). Allow me to explain:
>
> 1) It only takes 5 shots to kill a player. If 3 players double-tap, they have 1 extra bullet left over, that leaves a 4th player to do whatever they want.
> 2) If only 3 players spam just 1 enemy, the enemy is dead before any of the 3 players has a chance to fire a 3rd shot. The time it takes to acquire another target is more than likely enough to allow the bloom to reset.
>
> So really, a team of 4 teamshooting can spam all they want because they’ll never get passed double-tapping a single player. The team that looses is the one that doesn’t acquire the enemy quickest.
>
> Oh what fun teamwork is.
>
> Oh ya, a team of 2. If they teamshoot, they can almost always triple-shoot an enemy together and not worry too much about bloom effecting the 3rd shot. It does, it does a little, but not a lot. Of course powerweapons are preferable. Just saying that a team of 2 can spam 3 shots each per enemy and not worry too much that if their aim is perfect, the player won’t die.

so what you are saying is, the random factor in the DMR letting the person who shoots worse win against the person who shoots better is alright, ok, or optimal because sometimes you will have teammates helping you (and they will never have teammates spamming)? SOUND LOGIC REAPER.

i need to elaborate EVEN MORE.

-4v4 DMR-only battle
-1 team is spamming
-1 team is pacing
-all players have perfect accuracy
-mid range
-DMR-only battle
-both teams play optimally by focus firing 1 player, then moving to the next.

by '1 team spamming, i mean 1 team is only spamming. their DMR cadence is RRRRRRRRRRRR as fast as they can till all of their opponents are dead.

you are right, 1 player will die before bloom takes effect, but its a 4v4 battle, so its not just 1 person you have to kill.

effectively what im asking is, who should win: a team of people observing the mechanics, or a team of people ignoring the mechanics?

========================================================================also, when there is no random factor in shooting, what other ‘skills’ are pushed out of the sandbox? name a few plz (or one).

or is your silence to be taken as you conceding the point?

238

> **by '1 team spamming, i mean 1 team is only spamming. their DMR cadence is RRRRRRRRRRRR as fast as they can till all of their opponents are dead.
[/quote]
**Oh no, no, no, no, no (what is that a motorboat?).
> Anyways, no you don’t get to clarify that the spamming team doesn’t stop firing as they move onto the next player as they drop the double-tappers (because that’s how the pacers would be pacing). The spammers are not so stupid as to fullauto their weapons as the acquire the next target. Don’t be a fool.
>
> Because:
>
>
>
> > -4v4 DMR-only battle
> > -1 team is spamming
> > -1 team is pacing
> > -all players have perfect accuracy
> > -mid range
> > -DMR-only battle
> > -both teams play optimally by focus firing 1 player, then moving to the next.
>
> equates to:
> 1) It only takes 5 shots to kill a player. If 3 players double-tap, they have 1 extra bullet left over, that leaves a 4th player to do whatever they want.
> Let me add: If all 4 players shoot 1 enemy at a time, then 3 bullets are fired redundantly. But hey, anything worth shooting twice is worth shooting 8 times.
> 2) If only 3 players spam just 1 enemy, the enemy is dead before any of the 3 players has a chance to fire a 3rd shot. The time it takes to acquire another target is more than likely enough to allow the bloom to reset.
> Let me add: If all 4 players shoot 1 enemy at a time, then 3 bullets are fired redundantly. But hey, anything worth shooting twice is worth shooting 8 times.
>
> So really, a team of 4 teamshooting can spam all they want because they’ll never get passed double-tapping a single player. The team that looses is the one that doesn’t acquire the enemy quickest.
> Let me add: The team that paces will double-shot then rest then double-shot (they’re skilled pacers, not pacer pacers) and so both teams will shoot at each other like it was normal.
>
> But if it is 2 teams of Reach nOObs, 1 that paces paces and 1 that spams outright, the outright spamming team will win. The spammers ARE shooting faster than the other team and it’s only 2 bullets that each player needs to shoot out max (as they all fire with perfect accuracy as stated).
>
>
>
> > or is your silence to be taken as you conceding the point?
>
> Grow some patience boy. You are not so important as to warrant my always-attention. When I have access to a computer, and I don’t to my Xbox, this place (all of Waypoint) has my attention, not you.
> It is nice that a self proclaimed strategist easily forgets how situational awareness is the greater tool than the skill of using a weapon.
> The weapon isn’t the strength, the user is. And it is the Sniper that rewards everything required for " personal precision-skill" exclusive.

239

> > First of all 3 shotting with the pistol in h1 was not as easy as you make it sound not even the pros could consistantly do it. Second why shouldn’t every weapon not have a chance to kill someone using a not starting weapon how is it balanced that in reach if you pick up rockets you are basically gauranteed 4+ kills because of how powerful they are, a skilled player should be able to punish someone who fails to kill someone with the first rocket every time.

240

Reaper, let me ask you a question: why shouldn’t a player be able to go against another player, without help of their teammates? Why should the player need help in every situation?

Sure, it may emphasize the importance of team work, but is that really all. Halo isn’t all about team work, it isn’t something where you always need at least one player to be with you and if you both come across three players, you’re screwed, no matter how much better you can both aim.

Otherwise we wouldn’t have FFA playlists like Rumble Pit, we would just be having team playlists, but that’s not the case. I don’t care about other shooters, but one of the core foundations of Halo multiplayer is, that a skilled player can go against multiple enemies at once and still win the fight by shooting better. This has been all the way through the trilogy and only vanished in Halo Reach partly because of bloom.

Team work is and should be important, but individual skill should be as important, there is no reason to argue that a player should always have a teammate around in every situation, that takes alot away from the individual skill. On a map with low amount of sightlines, both teams couldn’t even control the map effectively as they would be watching eachother’s backs all the time.

You see, some foundations of skill require the player to have the ability to go in alone. Having to go into every situation without teammate makes the game dull. Team Doubles for example, by your logic, the game should be so that the two players must always see eachother and be in a position where they can effectively support their teammate, but the teammates can’t never go to different power weapons for example and thereby are unable to fully control the map as they are too afraid that one of them runs against one player from the other team and can’t win because of a random mechanic.

Actually, this accurately describes my situation in Team Doubles with my friend. Let’s have an example I’ve run into: We play KotH on Rebirth if you’re familiar with the map. I run on the hill which is located in the middle of the map on a short hallway with no cover, to be effective further on to the game, my friend runs to Rocket Launcher located in a small hallway under the hill. Both enemies come against me on the hill, I manage to outshoot them, but only because the Trueskill in Reach is so weak that I face opponents who couldn’t even kill me if I was standing still.

What if these palyers had been better, I would have lost, what should we have done differently? Should my teammate had come with me to the hill? Of course, but this isn’t how Halo works, in Halo, we should be able to share the tasks. if you look at old halo CE gameplay, you will notice that even in 2v2 the teams try to control the whole map while in Reach the team struggles to control one part of the map.

Decreasing the individual skill is really counterproductive and in the end, it hinders the effective use of team work and we are left with a boring game where you always need your team’s full support and can’t never go anywhere alone. That is dull and repetitive gameplay as there is little individual skill left and even the foundation of team work has been stripped to it’s most simple form: team shooting. Is this what you want Halo to be?