in terms of strength and ability, where do you guys think they fall. canon considered, i think they are above the three’s but below the two’s. espicially sinse the project had more time to develop and the unsc/oni making breakthroughs with forunner tech. it is possible that the augmentation process was dumbed down for a wider pool of candidates but given the results of the SIII in such little time, it would make no sinse to me that oni had more time to perfect the procedure with the SIV and come out with a weaker result. the s2’s will always have the edge in terms of dicipline as they were trained since childhood, but considering that the tech has advanced in 2557 and s2’s and 3’s are being intergrated into s4, the 4’s are probably a close second. the way i see it chief>s2’s in the s4 program>s4>s3’s in the s4 program>s3
There is a topic like this in the universe section but the spartan 2’s will always be the pinnacle of human augmentative science.
Spartan II’s will always be the most deadly, unless they do the whole kidnap kids thing again. But I think you’re right about the IV’s being second.
uh im not disputing that, read the post
Before I start, it should be noted that, canonically, an average S-III is on par with an average S-III. The S-IIIs were throw away soldiers with cheaper armor, but this does not reflect their combat effectiveness.
Anyway, I would imagine that the Spartan-IVs are likely on par with previous Spartans, if gameplay is any indication (though it’s usually not).
I am personally kind of disapointed in them exploiting the spartan program itself. Its was so cool when they took from actual real life history about spartans and incorporating them into science fiction (halo) and makeing a super hero (mater cheif) was absolutaly briliant. But now i feal like their kind of ruining it with makeing more. They should of just took the old spartan III program, and reformated it and still had them called spartan IIIs.
I understand how and why the spartan program was created. It had to be done. and i was ok with it, but whats next? Spartan V and VIs? Not trying to complain, cus i am real happy with about 99% of what 343i has done with halo 4. But was Spartan IVs really neccissary? They could have just reformated the Spartan III program.
I have read 7 halo novels, working on Halo Premordium. Havent read, glass lands or thursday war yet. Is the Spartan IV program explained? and why it was neccissary?
> I am personally kind of disapointed in them exploiting the spartan program itself. Its was so cool when they took from actual real life history about spartans and incorporating them into science fiction (halo) and makeing a super hero (mater cheif) was absolutaly briliant. But now i feal like their kind of ruining it with makeing more. They should of just took the old spartan III program, and reformated it and still had them called spartan IIIs.
>
> I understand how and why the spartan program was created. It had to be done. and i was ok with it, but whats next? Spartan V and VIs? Not trying to complain, cus i am real happy with about 99% of what 343i has done with halo 4. But was Spartan IVs really neccissary? They could have just reformated the Spartan III program.
>
> I have read 7 halo novels, working on Halo Premordium. Havent read, glass lands or thursday war yet. Is the Spartan IV program explained? and why it was neccissary?
its touched upon in either ghosts of onyx or thursday war, dont remember. anyway the point of the 4’s from what i can tell is that the unsc’s truce with the covanent defecto led by the arbiter did not account for the many waring covanent splinter groups. biggest of them all being the storm who still believe in the great journey. being that some of the remaining halo’s are still up and you have groups of hostile covanent, it would only be logical for the unsc/oni to further advance the spartan program. in short, though the main war was over, the covie threat was still present after halo 3
> The S-IIIs were throw away soldiers with cheaper armor, but this does not reflect their combat effectiveness.
The SPARTAN-II program had way higher recruiting requirements.
> > The S-IIIs were throw away soldiers with cheaper armor, but this does not reflect their combat effectiveness.
>
> The SPARTAN-II program had way higher recruiting requirements.
Only because of the heavily invasive augmentation process. Better genes meant a higher chance of surviving the augmentation process. The use of chemical injection for the S-III program meant a higher rate of survival and a wider gene-pool. In regard to combat effectiveness, the two were about equal, as is evidence in Halo Reach and Ghost of Onyx.
> > > The S-IIIs were throw away soldiers with cheaper armor, but this does not reflect their combat effectiveness.
> >
> > The SPARTAN-II program had way higher recruiting requirements.
>
> Only because of the heavily invasive augmentation process. Better genes meant a higher chance of surviving the augmentation process. The use of chemical injection for the S-III program meant a higher rate of survival and a wider gene-pool. In regard to combat effectiveness, the two were about equal, as is evidence in Halo Reach and Ghost of Onyx.
This. The recruiting might have a wider base, but it still was basically the top kids out there. Hell, I think they mention if Halsey was in charge she would still use the S2 genetic limitations, even if the augmentations had been made safer.
Now, an S2 WILL be stronger/taller/faster then an S3 (if only by a bit), but that’s due to the one implant they got which affected their growth. Overall, an S3 given MJOLNIR, and allowed to hit adulthood/fully stop growing (most S3’s ended up dying before that point IIRC) combined with time to get used to the augmentations, will give an S2 a good fight.
S4’s we know next to nothing about, but I’d rate them as below S3’s. They may be the badass ODST’s and marines, but S3’s and S2’s got trained from an early age and the best training available. Combined with physical conditioning and augmentations, they are pretty up there. Until we know more about Gen2 armor and the S4 program details (any training, augmentations, etc)… we can’t say for sure.
> Only because of the heavily invasive augmentation process. Better genes meant a higher chance of surviving the augmentation process. The use of chemical injection for the S-III program meant a higher rate of survival and a wider gene-pool. In regard to combat effectiveness, the two were about equal, as is evidence in Halo Reach and Ghost of Onyx.
No, genetics didn’t really matter in the augmentation process. The fact that they were children/younger does. Also, Noble Team is a huge exception to the general rule for the S-III program.
The Spartan-II program was intended to take genetically “perfect” human beings and train them from an early age, indoctrinate them, augment them, and then give them the Mjolnir armor. According to there genetics they are superior to at least 99.999% of regular humans on genetics and basic potential. Out of how many millions of children were screened, only a few hundred met the genetic requirements that Dr. Halsey set in place. Spartan-III’s genetic requirements were less “strict” to allow for a larger candidate pool, advancements in augmentation technology allowed for a much higher success rate in the S-III program. They even allowed for orphaned volunteers later in the program.
The topic of “which program was more effective” is something that could be debated until the end of time; each program was different. Theoretically, the S-II program produced the best soldiers in all regards. The S-III’s were genetically inferior, had less (if supposedly “improved”) training, and were not given Mjolnir armor. S-IV’s are adult volunteers. S-III’s were also sent on suicide missions, often with casualty ratings near 100%.
With all that said, there were a few S-III’s that met all of the genetic requirements set in place for the original S-II program, Noble 6 and Kat are among those few.
> <mark>No, genetics didn’t really matter in the augmentation process.</mark> The fact that they were children/younger does. Also, Noble Team is a huge exception to the general rule for the S-III program.
They do. Halsey needed them to both young and genetically superior in order to get the best out of her proposed augmentations. This was not the case with the Spartan-III program, as medical science had advanced to the point where, while children were still need, genetics were less of an issue.
In Ghosts of Onyx, we several examples of Spartan-III being able to work well with Spartan-IIs, despite the III’s “lesser” genetics. This is especially evidence when comparing Kurt-051 with Tom and Lucy.
> > Only because of the heavily invasive augmentation process. Better genes meant a higher chance of surviving the augmentation process. The use of chemical injection for the S-III program meant a higher rate of survival and a wider gene-pool. In regard to combat effectiveness, the two were about equal, as is evidence in Halo Reach and Ghost of Onyx.
>
> No, genetics didn’t really matter in the augmentation process. The fact that they were children/younger does. Also, Noble Team is a huge exception to the general rule for the S-III program.
>
> The Spartan-II program was intended to take genetically “perfect” human beings and train them from an early age, indoctrinate them, augment them, and then give them the Mjolnir armor. According to there genetics they are superior to at least 99.999% of regular humans on genetics and basic potential. Out of how many millions of children were screened, only a few hundred met the genetic requirements that Dr. Halsey set in place. Spartan-III’s genetic requirements were less “strict” to allow for a larger candidate pool, advancements in augmentation technology allowed for a much higher success rate in the S-III program. They even allowed for orphaned volunteers later in the program.
>
> The topic of “which program was more effective” is something that could be debated until the end of time; each program was different. Theoretically, the S-II program produced the best soldiers in all regards. The S-III’s were genetically inferior, had less (if supposedly “improved”) training, and were not given Mjolnir armor. S-IV’s are adult volunteers. S-III’s were also sent on suicide missions, often with casualty ratings near 100%.
>
> With all that said, there were a few S-III’s that met all of the genetic requirements set in place for the original S-II program, Noble 6 and Kat are among those few.
Um, genetics mattered MASSIVELY in the augmentations. It’s why Halsey had such a crazy restriction on it. Do you not recall the mention in Ghosts of Onyx where Kurt goes “If we go out of the genetic restrictions listed, the chance of failure during augmentations goes up”? Noble team was an exception, but NOT a giant one.
Millions weren’t screened(as I recall). Hell, Halsey handpicked the 75. IIRC, she was originally going for 300, but only had like half that matched her restrictions by the time the budget came out. The budget made her cut it in half against to 75 or so. The fact the children were orphaned(for S3 program) has no bearing on it besides the fact it gave them a purpose to succeed. I believe Kurt also mentions that as being something the S2’s lacked.
Genetically inferior. Perhaps. As long as you don’t mean that as “They sucked”. People tend to use it to mean that. S3 training is literally described as being better then S2 training, BY AN S2 HIMSELF. I’d call it being “less but better” easily fact. MJOLNIR armor is a command decision. They still kicked -Yoink- without it and completed objectives with SPI. Hell, in the only time the S2’s in MJOLNIR were in a similar situation to the suicide mission, they also got wiped out. Yes, they were set on basically suicide missions. that is a command level choice. Kurt and Mendez trained the S3’s as best as they could.
> Um, genetics mattered MASSIVELY in the augmentations. It’s why Halsey had such a crazy restriction on it. Do you not recall the mention in Ghosts of Onyx where Kurt goes “If we go out of the genetic restrictions listed, the chance of failure during augmentations goes up”? Noble team was an exception, but NOT a giant one.
>
> Millions weren’t screened(as I recall). Hell, Halsey handpicked the 75. IIRC, she was originally going for 300, but only had like half that matched her restrictions by the time the budget came out. The budget made her cut it in half against to 75 or so. The fact the children were orphaned(for S3 program) has no bearing on it besides the fact it gave them a purpose to succeed. I believe Kurt also mentions that as being something the S2’s lacked.
>
> Genetically inferior. Perhaps. As long as you don’t mean that as “They sucked”. People tend to use it to mean that. S3 training is literally described as being better then S2 training, BY AN S2 HIMSELF. I’d call it being “less but better” easily fact. MJOLNIR armor is a command decision. They still kicked -Yoink!- without it and completed objectives with SPI. Hell, in the only time the S2’s in MJOLNIR were in a similar situation to the suicide mission, they also got wiped out. Yes, they were set on basically suicide missions. that is a command level choice. Kurt and Mendez trained the S3’s as best as they could.
Out of 1,200 of the produced S-III’s, only Noble Team and one or two others ever received Mjolnir armor in the currently written cannon. Headhunters received upgraded SPI armor. I would say that that’s a pretty big exception. I did forget that line from Kurt though.
There is no official number of screened children. However the human population was estimated to be about 39 billion prior to the war with the Covenant, with 23 billion in casualties. It’s completely realistic to screen a few million children across dozens of colony worlds when you look at the size of the total population at the time.
Kurt outright states that they are inferior to the S-II candidates.
Eh, no. Kurt, Ackerson, all of ONI Command think the III’s are better.
> “Crap,” Rich muttered. He took a draw from his whiskey flask. “Now I’ve heard
> everything.”
>
> “What’s your angle, Colonel?” Gibson demanded. “You’ve been on record against
> Dr. Halsey’s SPARTAN-IIs since she started the program.”
>
> “I have,” Ackerson said. “And I still am.” He nodded to the readers. “Screen
> forty-two please.”
>
> They tabbed ahead.
>
> “Here I detail the flaws of Halsey’s undeniably ‘successful’ program,” Ackerson
> said. “High cost, an absurdly small gene-candidate pool, inefficient training
> methodologies, far too few final units producednot to mention her dubious
> ethics of using flash cloning procedures.”
>
> Parangosky scrolled ahead. “And you are proposing ah, a SPARTAN-III program?”
> Her cast-iron expression didn’t betray a hint of emotion.
>
> “Consider the SPARTAN-IIs a proof-of-concept prototype,” Ackerson explained.
> "Now it is time to shift into production mode. Make the units better with new
> technology. Make more of them. And make them cheaper."
Now Kurt:
> Ackerson said, “Mendez will, of course, join you.”
> “It would be an honor to serve under Chief Mendez,” Kurt replied.
>
> One of Ackerson’s brows quirked up. “Indeed.”
>
> He motioned at Kurt’s secure tablet. “Read. New training protocols have been
> outlined as well as an improved augmentation regime. We’ve learned much
> from the unfortunate medical processes Dr Halsey had at her disposal.”
>
> Kurt balled his hands into fists, remembering the pain of the bone graftslike
> glass breaking inside his marrow, and the fire that had burned along every
> nerve as they had been reengi-neered for enhanced speed.
>
> As he read he started to grasp the opportunities and challenges of this new
> program. The new bioaugmentations were a quantum leap ahead of those he
> had received. There were lower projected wash-out rates. There was, however,
> only a fraction of the original SPARTAN program training time and budget.
> MJOLNIR armor was to be replaced with something called Semi-Powered
> Infiltration (SPI) armor systems.
>
> “With these new candidates,” Kurt said, “you’re trying to do more with less.”
>
> Ackerson nodded. "They’ll be sent on missions with higher strategic values but
> correspondingly lower survival probabilities. That’s where you come in, Kurt.
> We need your training as a Spartan, and all your field experience passed along
> to these candidates. You need to make these Spartans better and train them
> faster. This program may be the key to our survival in this war."
>
> Kurt scanned the reader again. The new genetic selection protocol expanded
> the pool of candidates, but there were disturbing references to behavior
> problems in these less-than-ideal potential Spartans.
>
> But this mission was vital to the war, Kurt sensed that. And there would be CPO
> Mendez. It would be good to be working under his old teacher again. Could the
> two of them really train a new generation of Spartans?
>
> “In ten years,” Ackerson said, “with your guidance and a little luck, there will
> be a hundred new Spartans in the war. Employing several of these new
> Spartans to help train the next classes, there will be thousands within twenty
> years. With projected improvements in technology, perhaps a hundred
> thousand new Spartans will be created in thirty years.”
>
> A hundred thousand Spartans fighting for humanity? The image swam in Kurt’s
> mind. Was that possible?
>
> While Kurt didn’t understand all the ramifications, he now understood the
> importance of the end result. His initial feeling of unease, however, remained.
> How many of these new Spartans were going to die? He steeled himself. He’d do
> everything he could to see they had the best training, the best equipment, be
> the best soldiers humanity had ever produced. Even then, though, would it be
> enough?
> In the last six months he had developed a training regime tougher than the
> original SPARTAN program. He had created obstacle courses, firing ranges,
> classrooms, mess halls, and dormitories from what had been jungle and scrub
> plain.
>
> He had received every piece of equipment he had requested from NavSpecWep
> Section Three. Guns, ammunition, dropships, tankseven samples of Covenant
> technology and weaponry had appeared as if by sleight of hand.
>
> All personnel were accounted for: six dozen handpicked drill instructors,
> physical therapists, doctors, nurses, psychologists, and the all-important cooks all here except the most critical person, who was now on the incoming
> transports: Senior Chief Petty Officer Franklin Mendez.
> Mendez turned to the Pelicans, inhaled, and yelled, “Recruits, fallout!”
>
> Kids streamed off dropship ramps. Hundreds tromped onto the field, screaming,
> and throwing clumps of sod at one another. After being cooped up for hours,
> they went wild. A few, however, milled near the ships, dark circles under their
> eyes, and they huddled tighter. Adult handlers herded them onto the grass.
>
> “You’ve read Lord of the Flies, sir?” Mendez muttered.
>
> “I have,” Kurt replied. "But your analogy will not hold. These children will have
> guidance. They will have disciphne. And they have one thing no ordinary
> children have, not even the SPARTAN-II candidates. Motivation."
Bolded for emphasis.
To be continued
> Eh, no. Kurt, Ackerson, all of ONI Command think the III’s are better.
>
> snipped
Eh, no. You’re taking quotes and highlighting certain parts when they’re clearly comparing them to the previous company of S-III’s. Kurt outright states that the recruits would be “nothing like” the original S-II’s. S-II’s were just as important to the war as the S-III’s suicide missions. You’re comparing the work of 1,200 peoples one-time mission to the operation record of 27’ish career soldiers who have been in active duty for the entirety of the Human-Covenant War, most of them dying at Reach.
Augmentations were improved and increased the success rate of the augmentations. Nowhere in any piece of cannon does it say that the actual effects S-III’s augmentations were improved over S-II’s. The brain altering mutation is a questionable improvement at best.
Best equipment is laughable, S.P.I. armor, even the Headhunters version, is nothing compared to Mjolnir. The S-II program was ONI’s most expensive (and most effective) program by far. Noble Team is a exception to this.
Motivation due to them being orphaned is immaterial. For all of the supposed lacktherof, the S-II’s have the best operational record in the UNSC, with more kills than any three devisions of ODST’s. A “division” is between 10,000 and 30,000. Compared to less than 30 original Spartan-II’s.
> Augmentations were improved and increased the success rate of the augmentations. Nowhere in any piece of cannon does it say that the actual effects S-III’s augmentations were improved over S-II’s. The brain altering mutation is a questionable improvement at best.
Nowhere in the fiction does it say that the S-IIIs or the augmentations were somehow inferior to the S-IIs. However, Ghosts of Onyx makes the case that the two classes were about on part with each other, experience and equipment not withstanding.
> > Augmentations were improved and increased the success rate of the augmentations. Nowhere in any piece of cannon does it say that the actual effects S-III’s augmentations were improved over S-II’s. The brain altering mutation is a questionable improvement at best.
>
> Nowhere in the fiction does it say that the S-IIIs or the augmentations were somehow inferior to the S-IIs. However, Ghosts of Onyx makes the case that the two classes were about on part with each other, experience and equipment not withstanding.
I thought that the S-III’s had the same augmentations as the II’s bar one or two specific ones such as the thyroid growth implant? It’s just that the II’s had perfect genes so they had a greater effect. The II’s are physically superior to the III’s (Though that doesn’t mean the III’s are weak. In ghosts of onyx it’s stated that covenant realised it would be suicide to engage a spartan-III in hand to hand because of their incredible reaction times, being able to dodge plasma pistols and energy swords at point blank. of course, the Spartan-II’s would be even faster than that though) because of their genes but the III’s are better trained.
Some of the III’s however did have those perfect genes and would have been candidates for the spartan-II program had they been born around the same time (E.g. Noble team) and so they were given Mjolnir instead.
The III’s are also given cheaper equipment but that’s because they were supposed to be sent on suicide missions with high casualty rates.
From ONI’s point of view, the S-III program was likely far more effective for the money that was spent on it compared to the S-II program. I do think that the S-IIs are likely the most superior of all the SPARTANs in terms of overall achievement. Really it depends on how you look at each program, as both the 2s and 3s were effective in their own way.
> > Eh, no. Kurt, Ackerson, all of ONI Command think the III’s are better.
> >
> > snipped
>
> Eh, no. You’re taking quotes and highlighting certain parts when they’re clearly comparing them to the previous company of S-III’s. Kurt outright states that the recruits would be “nothing like” the original S-II’s. S-II’s were just as important to the war as the S-III’s suicide missions. You’re comparing the work of 1,200 peoples one-time mission to the operation record of 27’ish career soldiers who have been in active duty for the entirety of the Human-Covenant War, most of them dying at Reach.
>
> Augmentations were improved and increased the success rate of the augmentations. Nowhere in any piece of cannon does it say that the actual effects S-III’s augmentations were improved over S-II’s. The brain altering mutation is a questionable improvement at best.
>
> Best equipment is laughable, S.P.I. armor, even the Headhunters version, is nothing compared to Mjolnir. The S-II program was ONI’s most expensive (and most effective) program by far. Noble Team is a exception to this.
>
> Motivation due to them being orphaned is immaterial. For all of the supposed lacktherof, the S-II’s have the best operational record in the UNSC, with more kills than any three devisions of ODST’s. A “division” is between 10,000 and 30,000. Compared to less than 30 original Spartan-II’s.
Um. No all those quotes sound exactly like the events directly before Alpha company started. The only way they can talk about a previous group of S3’s is if you really twist the words.
Augmentation effects can be improved as in, less likely to kill those within the genetic restrictions. Same effect with less pain and trouble involved. Doesn’t mean they are leagues better then S2 augmentations. It can easily mean “On pay” with the improvements being in the survivability area. Which it does state later on with a 100% survival rate.
That statement can also easily mean “best of everything I CAN GET.” S2 program was most expensive, but if the S3’s had the same gear level they perform on the same level as S2’s for the most part. Noble Team is proof of this. Also equipment can easily mean things other then armor.
And the S3’s were sent on missions that were deemed to dangerous to use Spartan 2’s, and too dangerous for ODST’s to complete. And they completed every. single. objective. Hell, both times the only thing that defeated them was massive overwhelming Covenant counter-attacks.