The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
1762

> 2533274794139417;1759:
> > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> >
> > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
>
> What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games

What is “regular evolution of games”?
And why does it seem that the term “evolution” is used in tandem with what I assume is a notion that “modern game includes these things, we don’t want to be pre-historic”.
What’s the the next step? What are the next features?

I always get the feeling that when “evolution” is used, it’s to include what everyone else is doing, because they’re beating Halo in popularity.

Not to mention, opposing “modern / advanced movement”, does not mean reverting back to an old game, or opposing other ideas.
There’s a lot of untapped potential with what Halo had before Reach, and with many of the other ideas posted on here. Which are not tied to movement, or take a different approach than “modern movement”.

Does it feel like Halo 3 the the instance you drop out of sprint in Halo 5?

1763

> 2533274794139417;1759:
> > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> >
> > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
>
> What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games

Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.

The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…

The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…

1764

I think the reason so many people think Halo 3 when some one talks about wanting classic halo to return is due to how much Halo 3 gets used a example. You rarely see or hear anyone use CE, 2 or H2A as a example for what classic halo should be based off of for Halo Infinite and up. While at it you hear from some Halo YouTubers how halo 3 MP is great so that can also influence a person thought on classic halo returning. I think the best middle ground would be a modern classic halo I.e H2A MP, but I know people hate it as little less then modern halo so it wouldn’t please those people. But we don’t know what 343i will do for Infinite. Will they make it play like a slower halo 5 or similar to halo 3 or similar to H2A or use the flights to see which one wins?

1765

> 2533274936074323;1764:
> I think the reason so many people think Halo 3 when some one talks about wanting classic halo to return is due to how much Halo 3 gets used a example. You rarely see or hear anyone use CE, 2 or H2A as a example for what classic halo should be based off of for Halo Infinite and up. While at it you hear from some Halo YouTubers how halo 3 MP is great so that can also influence a person thought on classic halo returning. I think the best middle ground would be a modern classic halo I.e H2A MP, but I know people hate it as little less then modern halo so it wouldn’t please those people. But we don’t know what 343i will do for Infinite. Will they make it play like a slower halo 5 or similar to halo 3 or similar to H2A or use the flights to see which one wins?

I don’t think people want Halo 3 again, I think people want a true successor to Halo 3, which we have never gotten because Bungie and now 343 have only released games which are fundamentally different in their design from Halo 3.

With respect to multiplayer, we have two clear lineages that have been developed

Halo 1 → Halo 2 → Halo 3

Halo Reach → Halo 4 → Halo 5

People want to see a return to the original Halo lineage and have a real successor to Halo 3. Halo 3 has a lot of almost universally acknowledged problems (the biggest probably being BR spread) - there is clear room for improvement, without the need to change the entire damn game design by adding movement/armor/spartan abilities.

1766

> 2533274936074323;1764:
> I think the reason so many people think Halo 3 when some one talks about wanting classic halo to return is due to how much Halo 3 gets used a example. You rarely see or hear anyone use CE, 2 or H2A as a example for what classic halo should be based off of for Halo Infinite and up. While at it you hear from some Halo YouTubers how halo 3 MP is great so that can also influence a person thought on classic halo returning.

The reason you hear about it so much is that by virtue of Halo 3 being the most popular Halo ever, as well as being the last classic Halo game, people who started with Halo 3 can be expected to form the majority of classic Halo fans. It’s the Halo they grew up with, so of course they are going to see it as the gold standard.

Still, it’s really unfortunate that people think of any single game when discussing classic Halo, because in reality all the games in the original trilogy had their own flaws, The ideal “classic Halo” should not use any single one of them as “the base”, but should build its own gameplay around the fundamental principles of classic Halo with the indivudual games only serving as examples of what can go right and what can go wrong.

1767

> 2592250499807011;1763:
> > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > >
> > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> >
> > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
>
> Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
>
> The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
>
> The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…

With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.

You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.

1768

How would people feel if the main starting weapon(s) had a faster time to kill if 343 decided to keep sprint in the game? Not COD times, but something like the CE magnum where the perfect kill time was fast and the regular kill time was a little slower.

1769

> 2533274947298273;1767:
> > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > >
> > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > >
> > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> >
> > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> >
> > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> >
> > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
>
> With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
>
> You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.

  1. The game may “feel” faster, but that feeling is a lie. The game is at best the same speed because the maps are enlarged to compensate for sprint. You definitely can not cover a map faster than any other halo game.
    Example A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCTyWf4EI7U .
    .
    Example B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6YdPRyW0DA .
    .
    Sprint doesn’t speed up player movement relative to the map. It slows it down. And because you cannot fight while sprinting, it doesn’t speed up player movement in combat, either. There is no world where it is true that sprint speeds anything up. It provides an illusion of speed while it actually slows things down, and nothing more.

  2. Halo IS an arena shooter. Halo 5 literally defines itself as one. Control power weapons/etc to win. It tells this to you. The only Halo game that was NOT an arena shooter was launch Halo 4 with ordinance drops, loadouts, and no weapons on map

  3. If Halo is to be an arena shooter, which is what Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach, and 5 are, then yes, sprint is “unnatural”, because it takes one of the most fundamental elements of arena FPS, which is map positioning and control, and makes it less significant. There’s a reason that ZERO great arena FPS games have ever included movement abilities. They work in other kinds of shooters - such as loadout-based games like CoD - but not in arena FPS games.

If they want to give up on being an arena shooter and chase CoD or Fortnite or whatever else, then they can enjoy a dead game like they did with Halo 4. This is a proven mistake of disastrous portions for the franchise

Nothing I’ve just said is preference. You may have a preference for sprint, but it’s objectively bad in an arena FPS. It doesn’t speed the game up, and it lessens the importance of player positioning on the map IN A GENRE THAT IS ALL ABOUT MAP POSITIONING AND CONTROL. It’s completely awful game design

1770

> 2592250499807011;1769:
> > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > >
> > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > >
> > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > >
> > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > >
> > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > >
> > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> >
> > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> >
> > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
>
> 1) The game may “feel” faster, but that feeling is a lie. The game is at best the same speed because the maps are enlarged to compensate for sprint. You definitely can not cover a map faster than any other halo game. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCTyWf4EI7USprint doesn’t speed up player movement relative to the map. It slows it down.
>
> 2) Halo IS an arena shooter. Halo 5 literally defines itself as one. Control power weapons/etc to win. It tells this to you. The only Halo game that was NOT an arena shooter was launch Halo 4 with ordinance drops, loadouts, and no weapons on map
>
> 3) If Halo is to be an arena shooter, which is what Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach, and 5 are, then yes, sprint is “unnatural”, because it takes one of the most fundamental elements of arena FPS, which is map positioning and control, and makes it less significant. There’s a reason that ZERO great arena FPS games have ever included movement abilities. They work in other kinds of shooters - such as loadout-based games like CoD - but not in arena FPS games.
>
> If they want to give up on being an arena shooter and chase CoD or Fortnite or whatever else, then they can enjoy a dead game like they did with Halo 4. This is a proven mistake of disastrous portions for the franchise
>
> Nothing I’ve just said is preference. You may have a preference for sprint, but it’s objectively bad in an arena FPS. It doesn’t speed the game up, and it lessens the importance of player positioning on the map IN A GENRE THAT IS ALL ABOUT MAP POSITIONING AND CONTROL. It’s completely awful game design

You didn’t actually read my post, I think. All that video states is that Halo 5 maps are larger than Halo 3 maps. Which is true. Playing Halo 3’s Heretic is downright claustrophobic after playing Halo 5’s Truth. This is exactly because movement* is quicker in Halo 5, TTK is less, etc. *Note: I don’t define movement as the rate of passing some arbitrary points in a map and using that metric to compare with the rate of passing arbitrary points in an entirely different map in an entirely different game. Just because they share the same layout and the same theme does not mean they should play identically to each other–and there is not an argument for “bad game design” when they do not.

Stop trying to shoehorn Halo 5 into what you think an arena shooter should be. There’s no bible that states that arena shooters can’t have sprint. Your arguments that sprint removes the game’s focus on map positioning and control are unsubstantial at best.

1771

> 2727626560040591;1768:
> How would people feel if the main starting weapon(s) had a faster time to kill if 343 decided to keep sprint in the game? Not COD times, but something like the CE magnum where the perfect kill time was fast and the regular kill time was a little slower.

It wouldn’t matter. But the reason is not because faster kill times aren’t better, it’s because you can’t solve Halo’s gameplay crisis by only addressing one of the problems. Fast kill times, maps are still stretched. Fix the maps, kill times are still a problem - either way, the gameplay doesn’t really improve.

You have to scratch the whole thing to get it done.

1772

> 2533274947298273;1770:
> > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > >
> > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > >
> > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > >
> > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > >
> > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > >
> > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > >
> > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> >
> > 1) The game may “feel” faster, but that feeling is a lie. The game is at best the same speed because the maps are enlarged to compensate for sprint. You definitely can not cover a map faster than any other halo game. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCTyWf4EI7USprint doesn’t speed up player movement relative to the map. It slows it down.
> >
> > 2) Halo IS an arena shooter. Halo 5 literally defines itself as one. Control power weapons/etc to win. It tells this to you. The only Halo game that was NOT an arena shooter was launch Halo 4 with ordinance drops, loadouts, and no weapons on map
> >
> > 3) If Halo is to be an arena shooter, which is what Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach, and 5 are, then yes, sprint is “unnatural”, because it takes one of the most fundamental elements of arena FPS, which is map positioning and control, and makes it less significant. There’s a reason that ZERO great arena FPS games have ever included movement abilities. They work in other kinds of shooters - such as loadout-based games like CoD - but not in arena FPS games.
> >
> > If they want to give up on being an arena shooter and chase CoD or Fortnite or whatever else, then they can enjoy a dead game like they did with Halo 4. This is a proven mistake of disastrous portions for the franchise
> >
> > Nothing I’ve just said is preference. You may have a preference for sprint, but it’s objectively bad in an arena FPS. It doesn’t speed the game up, and it lessens the importance of player positioning on the map IN A GENRE THAT IS ALL ABOUT MAP POSITIONING AND CONTROL. It’s completely awful game design
>
> You didn’t actually read my post, I think. All that video states is that Halo 5 maps are larger than Halo 3 maps. Which is true. Playing Halo 3’s Heretic is downright claustrophobic after playing Halo 5’s Truth. This is exactly because movement* is quicker in Halo 5, TTK is less, etc. *Note: I don’t define movement as the rate of passing some arbitrary points in a map and using that metric to compare with the rate of passing arbitrary points in an entirely different map in an entirely different game. Just because they share the same layout and the same theme does not mean they should play identically to each other–and this is not an argument for “bad game design” when they do not.
>
> Stop trying to shoehorn Halo 5 into what you think an arena shooter should be. There’s no bible that states that arena shooters can’t have sprint. Your arguments that sprint removes the game’s focus on map positioning and control is unsubstantial at best.

Can you traverse maps faster with sprint? No.
Are you faster in combat with other players with sprint? No.
Do games complete faster or play out faster somehow with sprint? No.

So how exactly does sprint speed up the game again? Oh that’s right, it doesn’t. It just makes it “feel” faster. Well, candy makes you “feel” good, but it’s terrible for you. Sprint is basically the high fructose corn syrup of Halo. It tastes good, and people ignorant of what it actually does tend to like it.

What sprint/thruster pack/etc actually do is the following:

  1. They make player positioning less important, because they provide options for players to escape from bad positions. This makes choices about player movement and positioning less significant. You are less rewarded for getting into an advantageous position, and you are less punished for getting into a bad position. It changes the choice/consequence model of basic player movement in a way that lessens the impact of both the choices and the consequences. Again, this is just definition level stuff.

  2. Sprint in particular makes it less possible to predict player location on the map because you cannot easily predict how they are going to be moving. The effect of this is, again, that the significance of player positioning on the map is reduced.

An arena shooter is a shooter where players spawn on even footing as far as their loadouts/abilities/etc, and where they must fight to control power positions / weapons / pickups on the map in order to gain an advantage and win. Adding game design elements which make player positioning on the map less significant fundamentally works against the most basic premise of the genre. It’s objectively bad design, just as how one might like foods filled with high fructose corn syrup, but it’s bad for your health. This is true rather you like it or not.

1773

> 2592250499807011;1772:
> > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > >
> > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > >
> > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > >
> > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
>
> Can you traverse maps faster with sprint? No.
> Are you faster in combat with other players with sprint? No.
> Do games complete faster or play out faster somehow with sprint? No.
>
> So how exactly does sprint speed up the game again? Oh that’s right, it doesn’t. It just makes it “feel” faster. Well, candy makes you “feel” good, but it’s terrible for you. Sprint is basically the high fructose corn syrup of Halo. It tastes good to people who don’t know what it actually does.
>
> What sprint/thruster pack/etc actually do is the following:
> 1) They make player positioning less important, because they provide options for players to escape from bad positions. This makes choices about player movement and positioning less significant. You are less rewarded for getting into an advantageous position, and you are less punished for getting into a bad position. Again, this is just definition level stuff.
>
> 2) Sprint in particular makes it less possible to predict player location on the map because you cannot easily predict how they are going to be moving. The effect of this is, again, that the significance of player positioning on the map is reduced.

>“Can you traverse maps faster with sprint? No.”

By what metric? Do you not understand that these maps are totally different? Your argument is logically equivalent of saying that ants are faster than jet planes because it takes an ant 10 seconds to walk across a 12’’ globe of the earth and it takes 10 hours to fly across the earth.

The better metric would be using the spartan’s body as a meterstick, analyze how fast it takes for the spartan to cover a distance measured in his height. And Halo 5 would win. THIS would be a better metric of movement speed.

Concerning your sprint/thruster arguments:
Thrusting doesn’t downplay positioning at all. The reason is because thrusting is more advantageous when you’re in the better position. If I catch you running in the open on Tier 1 and I’m on Tier 2, your thrust is going to be useless. Meanwhile, i can jump and thrust in any direction from above and your positioning is really going to hurt you if you’re trying to track me with your shots.

I have no idea what you’re trying to claim with your sprint argument but variance in movement doesn’t just magically result in player positioning being overall less important. That’s quite a logical leap.

1774

> 2533274947298273;1773:
> > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > >
> > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > >
> > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> >
> > snip
>
> The better metric would be using the spartan’s body as a meterstick, analyze how fast it takes for the spartan to cover a distance measured in his height. And Halo 5 would win. THIS would be a better metric of movement speed.
>
> Concerning your sprint/thruster arguments:
> Thrusting doesn’t downplay positioning at all. The reason is because thrusting is more advantageous when you’re in the better position. If I catch you running in the open on Tier 1 and I’m on Tier 2, your thrust is going to be useless. Meanwhile, i can jump and thrust in any direction from above and your positioning is really going to hurt you if you’re trying to track me with your shots.
>
> I have no idea what you’re trying to claim with your sprint argument but variance in movement doesn’t just magically result in player positioning being overall less important. That’s quite a logical leap.

You really don’t understand the design of arena FPS, do you?

Movement speed being relative to spartan size is 100% irrelevant in a game which is about controlling positions on the map to win. Movement speed being relative to player size might be relevant in a game that doesn’t care about player positioning on a map, such as CoD or Battlefield, but movement speed’s relevance in an arena shooter is 100% determined by how fast you can get to various objectives on the map. And sprint doesn’t speed that up at all.

You are more or less illustrating my exact point with this argument, by the way, which I made a couple pages back in this thread - sprint makes absolute positioning on the map less important, and makes dynamic positioning relative to other players more important. This is a design choice which works against the basic arena FPS design goal of “the thing you need to do to win is control specific locations on the map”.

I’m not sure you have the service record pedigree to substantiate the idea that you know when thruster is more or less advantageous… good players (who are better than max skill diamond 1) easily abuse thruster pack to let them escape behind cover when weak or when caught in the open.

You have bought the lie that high fructose corn syrup is good because it tastes good, dude.

1775

> 2592250499807011;1774:
> > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> >
> > snip
>
> You really don’t understand the design of arena FPS, do you?
>
> Movement speed being relative to spartan size is 100% irrelevant in a game which is about controlling positions on the map to win. Movement speed being relative to player size might be relevant in a game that doesn’t care about player positioning on a map, such as CoD or Battlefield, but movement speed’s relevance in an arena shooter is 100% determined by how fast you can get to various objectives on the map. And sprint doesn’t speed that up at all.
>
> I’m not sure you have the service record pedigree to substantiate the idea that you know when thruster is more or less advantageous… good players (who are better than max skill diamond 1) easily abuse thruster pack to let them escape behind cover when weak or when caught in the open.
>
> You have bought the lie that high fructose corn syrup is good because it tastes good, dude.

This is exactly my argument. Sprint doesnt speed up the game, but it speeds up movement. This is why maps are designed to be larger in Halo 5. Please try to keep up Senpai.

Dude are you honestly throwing shade at my service record? You just waved the white flag in terms of our logical debate. It’s over bruh. And what’s even more rich is that you are literally unranked (in Team Arena) so by your logic, if I lack the pedigree then you must lack it even more. (Edited: SWAT don’t count, kiddo. Might as well be Champ in Infection).

You dug your own grave, kid. Touche.

1776

> 2533274947298273;1775:
> > 2592250499807011;1774:
> > > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> > >
> > > snip
> >
> > You really don’t understand the design of arena FPS, do you?
> >
> > Movement speed being relative to spartan size is 100% irrelevant in a game which is about controlling positions on the map to win. Movement speed being relative to player size might be relevant in a game that doesn’t care about player positioning on a map, such as CoD or Battlefield, but movement speed’s relevance in an arena shooter is 100% determined by how fast you can get to various objectives on the map. And sprint doesn’t speed that up at all.
> >
> > I’m not sure you have the service record pedigree to substantiate the idea that you know when thruster is more or less advantageous… good players (who are better than max skill diamond 1) easily abuse thruster pack to let them escape behind cover when weak or when caught in the open.
> >
> > You have bought the lie that high fructose corn syrup is good because it tastes good, dude.
>
> This is exactly my argument. Sprint doesnt speed up the game, but it speeds up movement. This is why maps are designed to be larger in Halo 5. Please try to keep up Senpai.
>
> Dude are you honestly throwing shade at my service record? You just waved the white flag in terms of our logical debate. It’s over bruh. And what’s even more rich is that you are literally unranked so by your logic, if I lack the pedigree then you must lack it even more.
>
> You dug your own grave, kid. Touche.

You do not understand the arguments I am making. You argument is this: “I can press a button to get a whoosh sound and a running animation, and I like this because it makes me go fast”.

I do not disagree with you that sprint makes you move faster relative to an imaginary meterstick in the game.

My argument in response is twofold, which you have demonstrated no capability to comprehend:

  1. Moving fast relative to a meterstick is not relevant, because the game is not designed around metersticks. The game is designed around power locations on the map, and the only thing that matters is how fast you are able to move relative to their location(s). Sprint does not speed this up, therefore sprint provides nothing but an illusion of speed.

  2. Sprint makes player positioning on the map less significant overall. This means that sprint works against the fundamental design of a game which revolves around player positioning on the map, such as an arena FPS

You are arguing for what you like. I am arguing what is actually good for the game’s design.

I don’t know why you think I’m unranked, unless you’re just talking about this season - I haven’t played much h5 since MCC got fixed. But I’ve hit champ a couple times in swat, onyx a couple times in arena/slayer, 50s in h3, 35 in h2. I make no claims of being a great player, but I’m good enough to know that it’s a bunch of bull to assert “thruster pack doesn’t help you escape bad positioning” as you have attempted.

1777

> 2592250499807011;1776:
> > 2533274947298273;1775:
> > > 2592250499807011;1774:
> > > > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> > > >
> > > > snip
> > >
> > > You really don’t understand the design of arena FPS, do you?
> > >
> > > Movement speed being relative to spartan size is 100% irrelevant in a game which is about controlling positions on the map to win. Movement speed being relative to player size might be relevant in a game that doesn’t care about player positioning on a map, such as CoD or Battlefield, but movement speed’s relevance in an arena shooter is 100% determined by how fast you can get to various objectives on the map. And sprint doesn’t speed that up at all.
> > >
> > > I’m not sure you have the service record pedigree to substantiate the idea that you know when thruster is more or less advantageous… good players (who are better than max skill diamond 1) easily abuse thruster pack to let them escape behind cover when weak or when caught in the open.
> > >
> > > You have bought the lie that high fructose corn syrup is good because it tastes good, dude.
> >
> > This is exactly my argument. Sprint doesnt speed up the game, but it speeds up movement. This is why maps are designed to be larger in Halo 5. Please try to keep up Senpai.
> >
> > Dude are you honestly throwing shade at my service record? You just waved the white flag in terms of our logical debate. It’s over bruh. And what’s even more rich is that you are literally unranked so by your logic, if I lack the pedigree then you must lack it even more.
> >
> > You dug your own grave, kid. Touche.
>
> You do not understand the arguments I am making. You argument is this: “I can press a button to get a whoosh sound and a running animation, and I like this because it makes me go fast”.
>
> I do not disagree with you that sprint makes you move faster relative to an imaginary meterstick in the game.
>
> My argument in response is twofold, which you have demonstrated no capability to comprehend:
> 1) Moving fast relative to a meterstick is not relevant, because the game is not designed around metersticks. The game is designed around power locations on the map, and the only thing that matters is how fast you are able to move relative to their location(s). Sprint does not speed this up, therefore sprint provides nothing but an illusion of speed.
>
> 2) Sprint makes player positioning on the map less significant overall. This means that sprint works against the fundamental design of a game which revolves around player positioning on the map, such as an arena FPS
>
> You are arguing for what you like. I am arguing what is actually good for the game’s design.
>
> I don’t know why you think I’m unranked, unless you’re just talking about this season - I haven’t played much h5 since MCC got fixed. But I’ve hit champ a couple times in swat, onyx a couple times in arena/slayer, 50s in h3, 35 in h2. I make no claims of being a great player, but I’m good enough to know that it’s a bunch of bull to assert “thruster pack doesn’t help you escape bad positioning” as you have attempted.

  1. For Starters, would you say not Sprinting on a map like Truth punishes your positioning, and Sprinting limits your ability to move around the map making a bad position more punishing.
  2. Have you played an actual Arena FPS because they do not have health or shield regen and both those abilities slow down gameplay similar to Sprint. If you want a real Arena FPS, I would recommend removing those abilities, as well as things like Grenades, and get rid of crouch jumping as it rewards bad position by allowing you to scale the map. The coin is twofold. You can dislike something, but use a consistent argument throughout. If you want Halo to be an Arena shooter, those are things that need to change.
  3. You also are missing the fact that positioning with Thrust gives you huge amount of advantages. May I ask? Do you know how to Thrust Jump, Thrust Slide, Jump Thrust Slide, Knee-Capping, and Slide Thrusting?
1778

> 2592250499807011;1769:
> 3) If Halo is to be an arena shooter, which is what Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach, and 5 are, then yes, sprint is “unnatural”, because it takes one of the most fundamental elements of arena FPS, which is map positioning and control, and makes it less significant. There’s a reason that ZERO great arena FPS games have ever included movement abilities. They work in other kinds of shooters - such as loadout-based games like CoD - but not in arena FPS games.
>
> […]Nothing I’ve just said is preference. You may have a preference for sprint, but it’s objectively bad in an arena FPS. It doesn’t speed the game up, and it lessens the importance of player positioning on the map IN A GENRE THAT IS ALL ABOUT MAP POSITIONING AND CONTROL. It’s completely awful game design

Your mistake here is the assumption that there’s some strict mold to which an arena shooter fits. You can make the argument that sprint is no good for arena shooters because this and that, but that is still an argument fundamentally founded on preference: preference regarding what an arena shooter should be. Even if we agree that sprint makes it easier to escape a bad position, whether this is enough to make the game a worse arena shooter is a matter of opinion. Even if we value the importance of good positioning, we can easily disagree how far we want to go with that. There exists no official design specification for an arena shooter stating some minimum for how important positioning needs to be.

Regarding sprint, I’d personally say that the ability to move and shoot at the same time is much more important as a defining characteristic than how important positioning is. But again, that’s just my opinion on what arena shooters should be about. There’s nothing objective about it.

Genres in general are not objective. They’re loosely defined boxes born from people’s need to categorize things, not strict scientific definitions that have been scrutinized in various conferences and honed to a mathematical degree of precision. And the further you go into sub-genres, the looser it gets. Some arena shooter purists wouldn’t necessarily even agree with us that Halo is an arena shooter, because it’s always been just a watered down version with slow movement speed and limited weapon carrying capacity.

When you try to claim things to be objective, you open yourself to a lot of easy hits, because the truth is that fewer things are objective than you think you are. The issue which causes your intuition to fail is that objective statements need to be at least in principle unambiquously falsifiable, but most people fail the unambiquity part, because turns out the concepts they use are often far too vague to be of any use.

Also, I’d like to point out that zero great arena shooters have included advanced movement, because arguably zero great arena shooters have been made during this millenium (again, I’m discounting Halo because you’d probably upset a bunch of Quake fans by calling Halo a great arena shooter). The mechanics in question at that time simply weren’t popular, probably because first person shooters were still a fairly new thing, and the developers didn’t really have the resources to make complex games at the time. It’s really pointless speculation whether the designers of those games would’ve been opposed to things like climbing, dodge mechanics, and such unless we go and ask them. (My bet would be that the developers are often more open to experimentation than the players who fall in love with their games.)

1779

> 2592250499807011;1776:
> > 2533274947298273;1775:
> > > 2592250499807011;1774:
> > > > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> > > >
> > > > snip
>
> snip

An illusion of speed? But didn’t you just type that I like to press a button that makes me go faster? So which is it. An illusion or something that makes me go faster? Because in Halo 5, there’s a fine balance between using sprint to reach objectives quicker vs being caught out of position and getting 5’d because your sprinting around like a headless chicken.

With regards to our rank, you are ranging from Silver to low Diamond. If you think that lets you talk down to someone who is pretty much consistently on the high of the average of your Team Arena rank, you’re may be suffering from delusions of grandeur, my friend.

1780

> 2535423239872731;1777:
> > 2592250499807011;1776:
> > > 2533274947298273;1775:
> > > > 2592250499807011;1774:
> > > > > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > > > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> > > > >
> > > > > snip
> > > >
> > > > You really don’t understand the design of arena FPS, do you?
> > > >
> > > > Movement speed being relative to spartan size is 100% irrelevant in a game which is about controlling positions on the map to win. Movement speed being relative to player size might be relevant in a game that doesn’t care about player positioning on a map, such as CoD or Battlefield, but movement speed’s relevance in an arena shooter is 100% determined by how fast you can get to various objectives on the map. And sprint doesn’t speed that up at all.
> > > >
> > > > I’m not sure you have the service record pedigree to substantiate the idea that you know when thruster is more or less advantageous… good players (who are better than max skill diamond 1) easily abuse thruster pack to let them escape behind cover when weak or when caught in the open.
> > > >
> > > > You have bought the lie that high fructose corn syrup is good because it tastes good, dude.
> > >
> > > This is exactly my argument. Sprint doesnt speed up the game, but it speeds up movement. This is why maps are designed to be larger in Halo 5. Please try to keep up Senpai.
> > >
> > > Dude are you honestly throwing shade at my service record? You just waved the white flag in terms of our logical debate. It’s over bruh. And what’s even more rich is that you are literally unranked so by your logic, if I lack the pedigree then you must lack it even more.
> > >
> > > You dug your own grave, kid. Touche.
> >
> > You do not understand the arguments I am making. You argument is this: “I can press a button to get a whoosh sound and a running animation, and I like this because it makes me go fast”.
> >
> > I do not disagree with you that sprint makes you move faster relative to an imaginary meterstick in the game.
> >
> > My argument in response is twofold, which you have demonstrated no capability to comprehend:
> > 1) Moving fast relative to a meterstick is not relevant, because the game is not designed around metersticks. The game is designed around power locations on the map, and the only thing that matters is how fast you are able to move relative to their location(s). Sprint does not speed this up, therefore sprint provides nothing but an illusion of speed.
> >
> > 2) Sprint makes player positioning on the map less significant overall. This means that sprint works against the fundamental design of a game which revolves around player positioning on the map, such as an arena FPS
> >
> > You are arguing for what you like. I am arguing what is actually good for the game’s design.
> >
> > I don’t know why you think I’m unranked, unless you’re just talking about this season - I haven’t played much h5 since MCC got fixed. But I’ve hit champ a couple times in swat, onyx a couple times in arena/slayer, 50s in h3, 35 in h2. I make no claims of being a great player, but I’m good enough to know that it’s a bunch of bull to assert “thruster pack doesn’t help you escape bad positioning” as you have attempted.
>
> 1. For Starters, would you say not Sprinting on a map like Truth punishes your positioning, and Sprinting limits your ability to move around the map making a bad position more punishing.
> 2. Have you played an actual Arena FPS because they do not have health or shield regen and both those abilities slow down gameplay similar to Sprint. If you want a real Arena FPS, I would recommend removing those abilities, as well as things like Grenades, and get rid of crouch jumping as it rewards bad position by allowing you to scale the map. The coin is twofold. You can dislike something, but use a consistent argument throughout. If you want Halo to be an Arena shooter, those are things that need to change.
> 3. You also are missing the fact that positioning with Thrust gives you huge amount of advantages. May I ask? Do you know how to Thrust Jump, Thrust Slide, Jump Thrust Slide, Knee-Capping, and Slide Thrusting?

I’ve already covered #1 in previous posts. Sprint provides opportunities to escape bad positioning and it makes predicting exact player locations less possible; these factors are why it makes player positioning less significant.

Halo 1/2/3/Reach/5 all are arena FPS, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Making a claim like “Halo isn’t a real arena FPS because it has shield regen” would be equivalent to me saying “Halo 5 isn’t a real arena FPS because it has sprint”… both those statements are highly arbitrary at a game design level. Arena FPS is defined by two simple things: equal player starts for everyone, and pickups on the map are available to give advantages over other players. Rather or not regenerating health/shields/etc is good design or not is a completely different conversation than anything that has been in this thread.

Thrust giving players advantages is simply another way to say “thrust lessens the importance of player positioning”. You don’t need to worry as much about your exact location because of the ability to quickly adjust it with thrust. The fact that you can thrust both offensively and defensively doesn’t affect my point because the overall effect is the same in both cases: the impact of your basic moment to moment movement decisions is lower than in a game without thrust.

1781

> 2533274947298273;1779:
> > 2592250499807011;1776:
> > > 2533274947298273;1775:
> > > > 2592250499807011;1774:
> > > > > 2533274947298273;1773:
> > > > > > 2592250499807011;1772:
> > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1770:
> > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274947298273;1767:
> > > > > > > > > > 2592250499807011;1763:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;1759:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535428779736382;1690:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274794139417;8:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I can’t go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If that’s the case good bye halo I loved u so much
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you actually loved Halo you wouldn’t leave over the possible return of classic movement, quite a childish act if I have to say
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What’s childish is crying about sprint which is a natural movement in modern games and wanting people to pay 60 bucks of their money for a halo3 clone. If you like Halo 3 that much go back and play Master Chief Collection don’t stop the regular evolution of games
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sprint is not a natural movement mechanic for an arena shooter. See my above post. It’s an objectively bad mechanic for Halo, which is the problem. Sprint is a natural movement mechanic for other kinds of shooters, but not arena shooters. It’s an unnatural mechanic for an arena FPS, which is why it harms Halo and makes it worse.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The idea you need sprint to speed up the game is hilariously ignorant. For one thing, it’s been pretty conclusively shown that sprint does NOT speed up the game. For another, there’s this thing called base movement speed and acceleration. It can be increased. And that DOES speed up the game…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The idea that removing sprint would automatically make a halo 3 clone is so stupid that it barely deserves a response. Neither Halo 1 nor Halo 3 have sprint. Would you say Halo 3 is a Halo 1 clone? I doubt it…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With regards to the “speed” of the game, well that definitely needs to be defined. Average rate of kills? Sure sprint may not increase the “speed” of the game, meaning that older Halo titles had more or less the same (or even higher) rate of kills. But there’s no doubt that sprint speeds up player movement and adds a lot of mechanics that can make the game “feel” faster. You can’t deny that sprinting moves your spartan faster, and coupled with spartan abilities like thrust and sliding can allow you to cover distance faster than any other halo game. So yea, it does “speed” up the game in that regards.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You keep trying to classify Halo in terms of what YOU want it to be. It needs to be an arena shooter. It needs to be Halo 1-3. It’s “unnatural” if it does not adhere to what I think it should be. These aren’t objective arguments, they’re all preference.
> > > > >
> > > > > snip
> >
> > snip
>
> An illusion of speed? But didn’t you just type that I like to press a button that makes me go faster? So which is it. An illusion or something that makes me go faster?

Come back when you are capable of demonstrating that you understand my argument.

> 2533274825830455;1778:
> > 2592250499807011;1769:
> > 3) If Halo is to be an arena shooter, which is what Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach, and 5 are, then yes, sprint is “unnatural”, because it takes one of the most fundamental elements of arena FPS, which is map positioning and control, and makes it less significant. There’s a reason that ZERO great arena FPS games have ever included movement abilities. They work in other kinds of shooters - such as loadout-based games like CoD - but not in arena FPS games.
> >
> > […]Nothing I’ve just said is preference. You may have a preference for sprint, but it’s objectively bad in an arena FPS. It doesn’t speed the game up, and it lessens the importance of player positioning on the map IN A GENRE THAT IS ALL ABOUT MAP POSITIONING AND CONTROL. It’s completely awful game design
>
> Your mistake here is the assumption that there’s some strict mold to which an arena shooter fits. You can make the argument that sprint is no good for arena shooters because this and that, but that is still an argument fundamentally founded on preference: preference regarding what an arena shooter should be. Even if we agree that sprint makes it easier to escape a bad position, whether this is enough to make the game a worse arena shooter is a matter of opinion. Even if we value the importance of good positioning, we can easily disagree how far we want to go with that. There exists no official design specification for an arena shooter stating some minimum for how important positioning needs to be.
>
> Regarding sprint, I’d personally say that the ability to move and shoot at the same time is much more important as a defining characteristic than how important positioning is. But again, that’s just my opinion on what arena shooters should be about. There’s nothing objective about it.
>
> Genres in general are not objective. They’re loosely defined boxes born from people’s need to categorize things, not strict scientific definitions that have been scrutinized in various conferences and honed to a mathematical degree of precision. And the further you go into sub-genres, the looser it gets. Some arena shooter purists wouldn’t necessarily even agree with us that Halo is an arena shooter, because it’s always been just a watered down version with slow movement speed and limited weapon carrying capacity.
>
> When you try to claim things to be objective, you open yourself to a lot of easy hits, because the truth is that fewer things are objective than you think you are. The issue which causes your intuition to fail is that objective statements need to be at least in principle unambiquously falsifiable, but most people fail the unambiquity part, because turns out the concepts they use are often far too vague to be of any use.
>
> Also, I’d like to point out that zero great arena shooters have included advanced movement, because arguably zero great arena shooters have been made during this millenium (again, I’m discounting Halo because you’d probably upset a bunch of Quake fans by calling Halo a great arena shooter). The mechanics in question at that time simply weren’t popular, probably because first person shooters were still a fairly new thing, and the developers didn’t really have the resources to make complex games at the time. It’s really pointless speculation whether the designers of those games would’ve been opposed to things like climbing, dodge mechanics, and such unless we go and ask them. (My bet would be that the developers are often more open to experimentation than the players who fall in love with their games.)

It’s not really a stretch to say that an arena FPS is defined by equal player starts and by power positions/weapons/pickups on the map being the key to winning. That’s a pretty clear-cut subset of the FPS genre that would fit into this, and it would catch everything that anyone calls an arena FPS for the past 30 years. Getting narrower than that starts to be a little trickier (as per my response about regenerating health above), but I stand by that definition. It’s also the explanation that 343 uses for Halo 5’s gameplay. And yes, Halo is a great arena FPS. Halo’s success, in large part, is because it adapted the arena FPS genre to the new millennium and the advent of FPS on console. I’ve got a cup for your tears about that right over here, Quake and UT purists.

My argument against sprint and movement abilities stands or falls on a simple criteria: does Halo’s game design revolve around players controlling specific locations on a map, or not. If not, then my arguments are BS. If so, my arguments are valid and far from being one person’s opinion. .
If player location on a map is integral to the fundamental design of the game, then sprint should not be a part of the game because it harms that fundamental design.