The return of classic movement mechanics?

[ADE_MacBamboo01]

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.

It wouldn’t be enough, not as long we still have AMM as a base.

If Hi is just H5 2.0 you can’t just switch sprint off and forge some classic maps together around it. You still have to work with the strafe speed, magnetism, aimining system, areas of effect (rocket impact area f.e.) and weapon balancing that were build with those AA in mind.

> 2533274874453277;1516:
> Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past.
>
> [CUT]As in the past, on H3 and H Reach, there were the MLG and Harcore playlists that were different form the others (in H Reach they were very different) in the same way you could keep unchanged many of the current playlists except the competitive area.

MLG and Hardcore playlists ultimately only changed a few stats like base speed in H2/3, and in Reach the same happened plus loadouts got (rightfully) deactivated. Evade became a really useful pick-up too, but all this **was still part of the main sandbox.**Reach was modular by nature and still got the Halo base movement mechanics instead of the advanced ones. Every Spartan Ability worked like a power-up and stacked upon the base abilities when you really think about it. This is why most sections of all maps were build without sprint in mind for instance and why the old aiming system still worked like a charm in Reach even without SA. This also means the abilities couldn’t be too aggressive though: sprint must be limited, jet-packs are slow, evade forces you into an animation etc…

This is the main reason why it baffles me when people suggest to divide the playlists, but ultimately want H5G as the main mold for every game type. Once you balanced the game for it you can’t just cut the content the game was balanced for and hope it will work. It won’t! If we go for this route the should be build like Reach again and be a modular kind of game and sandbox. All base mechanics in that case need to be as simple as possible so that the grade of complexity of all mechanics can be modified based on necessity.

Forget H5 levels of AMM than though, because again: strafe speed, magnetism, aimining system, areas of effect and weapon balancing are not just things you can that easily switch on and off. However, this is the only way I can see modern mechanics be implemented in the arena sandbox of a real Halo game without ruining the classic play-style.

> 2533274874453277;1516:
> Which style would appear in the campaign? One group is going to be disappointed. Imho, campaign must be modern. The classic area would be just multiplayer.

Why not classic though? Pretty much everyone agrees that Bungie’s campaigns had more pathos, better enemy AI, level design and variety, so why sticking to the H5 formula that didn’t worked in first place?

Also you want two play styles to gather as many players as possible. Well, SP is still a huge reason for getting a Halo game in first place.

If Hi is another boring CoD like shooter gallery like H4 was I’m certainly not going to buy it. Same if it’s another game like H5, with ballet sponges standing still in the battlefield shooting gravity denying bullets due to movement mechanics being too fast. Same goes for the majority of the player base I would say.

However vice-versa is true as well for AMM fans. They won’t get Hi if there isn’t at least sprint in campaign. But what are you going to do? Develope two single players as well? You see how many problems are stacking up already?

> 2533274874453277;1516:
> **How do you balance the weapons? Both styles are going to have different movement characteristics, so if you want to make both work adequately, you will need to balance separately.**Separately balance, obviously. I think it would not be a problem.
>
> [CUT]I do not want to presume to say that this would work better, it’s just my idea about it.

That’s a joke, right? Mate! My dear friend! You’re truly, HEAVILY underestimating the work Devs are putting into balancing and map-design!!!

What you’re asking for is not to tweak a few minor stat like the MLG playlists of old school Halo, you’re asking for two completely separate games with their very own set of coding and mods put into the same disc! I beg you realize this little fact.

People are not against the idea of two separate playlists because they are mean or something… It’s just that it ain’t nearly as easy as you make it sound.

[JB_Linken]

> 2533274825830455;1518:
> > 2533274874453277;1516:
> > It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
> >
> > Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past. Is it better to have a single gameplay and 10,000 online players, or two gameplays and 100,000 online players? we would stop discussing the same things because everyone would have the gameplay they prefer.
>
> And what if you end up with two gameplays and 10,000 players online? Trying to give something for both groups means inevitably compromising on either one, or both styles of gameplay. Which style would appear in the campaign? One group is going to be disappointed. How do you balance the weapons? Both styles are going to have different movement characteristics, so if you want to make both work adequately, you will need to balance separately. When it comes to your suggestion of Forge maps, that’s not going to cut it. As great as the modern Forge is, Forge maps are still no substitute for developer made maps. Finally, more playlists will necessarily lead to either either split populations between duplicate playlists, or playlists that are barely populated. Neither is ideal, because you’d want players to have the best matchmaking experience possible.
>
> A compromise helps no one, because rather than providing the best experience you can for some people, you’re providing a mediocre experience for everyone. As far as I’m concerned, a mediocre experience is worse than no experience at all.

Rather than playlists do you think the Match Composer returning could help allieviate this concern? You would get a larger pool of players rather than those specifically queuing for say Oddball, unless you yourself only queue for Oddball. Same with Classic/Advanced/Both.

I do agree with your concerns about how map design would be impacted by a compromise, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Classic maps got the short end or just ended up forged.

[tsassi]

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> Imho, campaign must be modern. The classic area would be just multiplayer.

So people who don’t like advanced movement get the short end of the stick? That doesn’t seem like it would help them not feel neglected.

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> Separately balance, obviously. I think it would not be a problem.

You just gave the developers quite a bit more work. It’s unlikely the weapon design in both modes will feel as polished as it would’ve if there as only one type of gameplay.

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> I think all classic fans would be happy to play on forge maps, rather than nothing.

That’s a bold claim, which is wrong, because I wouldn’t. I have better things to do than play games that only attempt to keep me around without commiting to giving me the best possible experience. I don’t want mediocre experiences.

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> Imho this thing can only work if we consider the classic mechanics as competitive and the modern ones as normal experience (but equally ranked, not social). As in the past, on H3 and H Reach, there were the MLG and Harcore playlists that were different form the others (in H Reach they were very different) in the same way you could keep unchanged many of the current playlists except the competitive area.

And the fact that MLG in Reach was so different from the base game was a pretty big problem for the competitive community, because the discrepancy made it harder for new players to get into MLG: If you have two styles of gameplay, you’ll create divide into the community.

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> For example:
>
> HCS (classic gameplay, competitive)
> Team Arena
> Team Slayer
> Team Double
> Head to Head
>
> INFINITE (modern gameplay, ranked but no competitive):
> Elimination
> Team Slayer
> Team Swat
> FFA

Classic fans would probably want FFA and SWAT, and I can’t speak what the advanced movement fans would want from the other side. Although I’m not sure what your difference between competitive and no competitive is, since all these playlists seem quite competitive to me, and there are some more casual playlists missing.

[LUKM1K]

> 2533274795098161;1522:
> > 2533274874453277;1519:
> > It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
>
> It wouldn’t be enough, not as long we still have AMM as a base.
>
> If Hi is just H5 2.0 you can’t just switch sprint off and forge some classic maps together around it. You still have to work with the strafe speed, magnetism, aimining system, areas of effect (rocket impact area f.e.) and weapon balancing that were build with those AA in mind.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;1516:
> > Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past.
> >
> > [CUT]As in the past, on H3 and H Reach, there were the MLG and Harcore playlists that were different form the others (in H Reach they were very different) in the same way you could keep unchanged many of the current playlists except the competitive area.
>
> MLG and Hardcore playlists ultimately only changed a few stats like base speed in H2/3, and in Reach the same happened plus loadouts got (rightfully) deactivated. Evade became a really useful pick-up too, but all this **was still part of the main sandbox.**Reach was modular by nature and still got the Halo base movement mechanics instead of the advanced ones. Every Spartan Ability worked like a power-up and stacked upon the base abilities when you really think about it. This is why most sections of all maps were build without sprint in mind for instance and why the old aiming system still worked like a charm in Reach even without SA. This also means the abilities couldn’t be too aggressive though: sprint must be limited, jet-packs are slow, evade forces you into an animation etc…
>
> This is the main reason why it baffles me when people suggest to divide the playlists, but ultimately want H5G as the main mold for every game type. Once you balanced the game for it you can’t just cut the content the game was balanced for and hope it will work. It won’t! If we go for this route the should be build like Reach again and be a modular kind of game and sandbox. All base mechanics in that case need to be as simple as possible so that the grade of complexity of all mechanics can be modified based on necessity.
>
> Forget H5 levels of AMM than though, because again: strafe speed, magnetism, aimining system, areas of effect and weapon balancing are not just things you can that easily switch on and off. However, this is the only way I can see modern mechanics be implemented in the arena sandbox of a real Halo game without ruining the classic play-style.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;1516:
> > Which style would appear in the campaign? One group is going to be disappointed. Imho, campaign must be modern. The classic area would be just multiplayer.
>
> Why not classic though? Pretty much everyone agrees that Bungie’s campaigns had more pathos, better enemy AI, level design and variety, so why sticking to the H5 formula that didn’t worked in first place?
>
> Also you want two play styles to gather as many players as possible. Well, SP is still a huge reason for getting a Halo game in first place.
>
> If Hi is another boring CoD like shooter gallery like H4 was I’m certainly not going to buy it. Same if it’s another game like H5, with ballet sponges standing still in the battlefield shooting gravity denying bullets due to movement mechanics being too fast. Same goes for the majority of the player base I would say.
>
> However vice-versa is true as well for AMM fans. They won’t get Hi if there isn’t at least sprint in campaign. But what are you going to do? Develope two single players as well? You see how many problems are stacking up already?
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;1516:
> > **How do you balance the weapons? Both styles are going to have different movement characteristics, so if you want to make both work adequately, you will need to balance separately.**Separately balance, obviously. I think it would not be a problem.
> >
> > [CUT]I do not want to presume to say that this would work better, it’s just my idea about it.
>
> That’s a joke, right? Mate! My dear friend! You’re truly, HEAVILY underestimating the work Devs are putting into balancing and map-design!!!
>
> What you’re asking for is not to tweak a few minor stat like the MLG playlists of old school Halo, you’re asking for two completely separate games with their very own set of coding and mods put into the same disc! I beg you realize this little fact.
>
> People are not against the idea of two separate playlists because they are mean or something… It’s just that it ain’t nearly as easy as you make it sound.

ok, i’m not a developer and I thought it was easier. Thank you for your answer. Really I thought it was simpler.

I will have to resign myself to the fact that Halo will never be like in the past.

[baaask]

> 2533274874453277;1525:
> ok, i’m not a developer and I thought it was easier. Thank you for your answer. Really I thought it was simpler.
>
> I will have to resign myself to the fact that Halo will never be like in the past.

Luckily we’ll have some options coming in the near future for us that prefer the pure Halo formula.

[LUKM1K]

> 2779900484279609;1526:
> > 2533274874453277;1525:
> > ok, i’m not a developer and I thought it was easier. Thank you for your answer. Really I thought it was simpler.
> >
> > I will have to resign myself to the fact that Halo will never be like in the past.
>
> Luckily we’ll have some options coming in the near future for us that prefer the pure Halo formula.

i hope…

[DARTH_CEDIOUS]

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> I think all classic fans would be happy to play on forge maps, rather than nothing.

No…being a classic fans does not mean having no self respect.
I’ve been not given a Halo that meets my expectations with Reach, 4 and 5. I’m a fan, still being here after almost 10 years of not getting a decent sequel should be proof but there is a point where I should stop wasting my money on something that is going to be disappointing

> 2533274874453277;1521:
> I prefer H2 to HCE because as much as I love CE, I do not like the idea of a gameplay where the magnum is more effective than any other power weapon. H2 BR was the best experience, imho.

That’s not really the case…
What’s the big difference between the HCE psitol and the H2 BR? The pistol is harder to use and you have a more intersting sandbox in CE.
In my experience, power weapons play a much bigger role in CE than in any other Halo.

> 2533274874453277;1519:
> Separately balance, obviously. I think it would not be a problem.

ignoring the amount of exra work, this will lead to lots of bad blood. Gears4 tried to do it on a small scale with only minor differences and people still were upset.

[LUKM1K]

> 2533274801973487;1528:
> > 2533274874453277;1519:
> >
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;1521:
> > I prefer H2 to HCE because as much as I love CE, I do not like the idea of a gameplay where the magnum is more effective than any other power weapon. H2 BR was the best experience, imho.
>
> That’s not really the case…
> What’s the big difference between the HCE psitol and the H2 BR? The pistol is harder to use and you have a more intersting sandbox in CE.
> In my experience, power weapons play a much bigger role in CE than in any other Halo.
>
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274874453277;1519:
> >

H CE pistol was too OP. 3 shot to kill, very low time to kill and extreme range: you could kill an enemy on the other side of the map. Sometimes I preferred to use magnum rather than sniper or rocket, and I do not find it “right”.

More generally, I am against the low time to kill because it reduces the skill gap between the players. It means more importance to those who fired first, and less chances to subvert the duel. In H2/3 it could happen that a skilled player was surprised behind and, thanks to the skill gap and the long time to kill, sometimes he could turn around and kill the enemy even though he was initially at a disadvantage.

It is no coincidence that Halo has always been known as skill based game thanks to things like these also, compared to games like call of duty where instead the ttk has always been low.

Another thing that I do not like single-shot weapons is that the shot enters or does not enter, making the recording of the shot very susceptible to micro-lag and any micro-bugs. With the old three burst with hitscan, you can shot partially the enemy in the head and have fewer episodes of unregistered hit.This is the reason because i don’t like H5 BR. It’s a three shot fire but they appears like single shots, like a DMR.

[Celestis]

> 2533274874453277;1529:
> More generally, I am against the low time to kill because it reduces the skill gap between the players. It means more importance to those who fired first, and less chances to subvert the duel. In H2/3 it could happen that a skilled player was surprised behind and, thanks to the skill gap and the long time to kill, sometimes he could turn around and kill the enemy even though he was initially at a disadvantage.

Huh? Sorry, but you got that backwards… that’s an larger skill gap in CE, not a smaller one. Situational awareness, map knowledge, etc. is a skill. One that has been downplayed in later titles, to various degrees (slightly in 2/3, significantly in 4/5). So are reaction time, aiming precision, evasion capabilities. If you’re having an easier time to come back from getting shot at, that means that it takes less skill to do that. You were still able to counter-kill an enemy that had already shot you in CE, it just was a lot harder.

> 2533274874453277;1529:
> It is no coincidence that Halo has always been known as skill based game thanks to things like these also, compared to games like call of duty where instead the ttk has always been low.

TTK has nothing to do with skill. Arena shooters (the genre that Halo initially took heavy inspiration from) are some of the highest skill-dependent games in existence and the TTK is ridiculously low. (Sometimes even zero in the case of Instagib.)

[TECH_PON3]

Halo Infinite so far is looking like it going to be a classic halo games in terms of story and art style. But movement and gameplay we still don’t know, but if I had to assume what it would be I would say classic. Why? From a community stand point it would make more people enjoy the game if it played like classic halo and brings old fans who left back, from a business standpoint it would make them more money (probably). While yes the people who don’t like how classic halo plays won’t be happy, it would make more sense to make the classic halo fans happy since at this point it is the majority.

343i would probably use halo 3 as a base, since it is the most popular out of the classic MPs. Or they could use H2A as a base but that is unlikely. H:I will be pushing away fans that like modern halo gameplay/movement if the game plays like classic halo, but it would push more fans away that enjoy classic halo more if the game plays like modern halo. So H:I would most likely push away the fans who like modern halo gameplay and movement.

[DARTH_CEDIOUS]

> 2533274874453277;1529:
> H CE pistol was too OP. 3 shot to kill, very low time to kill and extreme range: you could kill an enemy on the other side of the map. Sometimes I preferred to use magnum rather than sniper or rocket, and I do not find it “right”.
>
> More generally, I am against the low time to kill because it reduces the skill gap between the players. It means more importance to those who fired first, and less chances to subvert the duel. In H2/3 it could happen that a skilled player was surprised behind and, thanks to the skill gap and the long time to kill, sometimes he could turn around and kill the enemy even though he was initially at a disadvantage.
>
> It is no coincidence that Halo has always been known as skill based game thanks to things like these also, compared to games like call of duty where instead the ttk has always been low.
>
> Another thing that I do not like single-shot weapons is that the shot enters or does not enter, making the recording of the shot very susceptible to micro-lag and any micro-bugs. With the old three burst with hitscan, you can shot partially the enemy in the head and have fewer episodes of unregistered hit.This is the reason because i don’t like H5 BR. It’s a three shot fire but they appears like single shots, like a DMR.

Sticking to the pistol might work if you’re playing lower end players.
But generally the HCE pistol is the more “skill demanding” starting weapon. A high perfect TTK is not everything, the differance between perfect and average TTK is much more imoportant and this is where HCE excels. HCE has a fast perfect TTK but a rather long average TTK. This difference is it, what allows for “comebacks”. It was way too easy to pull of perfects in H2 (so medium perfect TTK but only slightly longer average TTK), H3 had it’s problems with lag and shots not registering. I’m not saying those game did not require gun skill, they are still more demanding than, lets say, CoD but HCE was just better, at least on mid and high level play…
Projectile has had it’s tech limitations but one should hope that 343 has the skill to make it more reliable by now…

[HyperPhobos]

> 2535449076192416;1:
> In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
>
> EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343
>
> EDIT: 1100 comments. __What have I done?__FINAL EDIT: I’m just going to stop counting at this point. The level of which this thread has grown is simply ridiculous.

Is it even possible to please the majority of Halo fans. If half the fan base wants classic movement mechanics and the other half want AMM. What can 343 Industries do about that?

[baaask]

> 2533274869172866;1533:
> > 2535449076192416;1:
> > In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
> >
> > EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343
> >
> > EDIT: 1100 comments. __What have I done?__FINAL EDIT: I’m just going to stop counting at this point. The level of which this thread has grown is simply ridiculous.
>
> Is it even possible to please the majority of Halo fans. If half the fan base wants classic movement mechanics and the other half want AMM. What can 343 Industries do about that?

They should probably pick the one that brought Halo to prominence in the first place.

[WGU_Wolfette]

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/29568daf8cd14083bd1b70a810bf3581/topics/halo-infinite-should-go-back-to-classic-movement/c1dbc93e-63df-421a-9c1d-94d6b0902fa6/posts?page=1

[Jynx_Fatal]

I’m not from the good old days of Halo since I’m still somewhat new to the franchise. I’m glad we got The Master Chief Collection since I never had the chance to play classic Halo games back then. I really like all the campaigns but never played the classic multiplayer. I started with Halo 5’s multiplayer and I will admit it was very difficult. Overtime I improved a lot and got used to the mechanics. Then I decided to give the MCC multiplayer a try but immediately noticed I was playing worse than Halo 5. Since I got used to Halo 5’s mechanics I was struggling to learn classic Halo movement, even my aiming was pretty bad. Now I know my opinion doesn’t compare to others and I understand that sharing my opinion would bring criticism but I’m just saying it from a “new” player’s view. I will say I like the current mechanics without ground pound and spartan charge but that’s just me. I’m not against classic movement or anything but I’m sure 343 will find a way to support both classic and modern Halo movement mechanics in Halo Infinite.

[didiaskforfries]

I’d like to see it like h3 or reach

[system]

[deleted]

[Dead_End_24]

> 2533274869172866;1533:
> > 2535449076192416;1:
> > In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
> >
> > EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343
> >
> > EDIT: 1100 comments. __What have I done?__FINAL EDIT: I’m just going to stop counting at this point. The level of which this thread has grown is simply ridiculous.
>
> Is it even possible to please the majority of Halo fans. If half the fan base wants classic movement mechanics and the other half want AMM. What can 343 Industries do about that?

You will never please everyone. You just can’t. The best thing to do is try and please the majority and I think that is possible.

In my mind, 343I\Microsoft have three options.

• They pick a style and stick to it. Either use advanced movement or don’t. Something like Thrusters or a Double Jump to me doesn’t have to be advanced movement either. I feel advanced movement is mainly (key word there) the sprint mechanic animation. - They make two completely different Halo games\series. One series uses advanced movement and one doesn’t. - They just keep rotating game styles every other game. So for example. If Halo 6 uses advance movement, then Halo 7 would not.If it were up to me, I would make a Halo game that doesn’t use a sprint mechanic animation or a ADS style zooming animation and see how it is received\does. I have a VERY hard time in believing that it would do worst then Halo 4 or 5, but we won’t know unless it happens. 343I has made a few advanced movement Halo games, Halo 5 being the pinnacle of there advance movement style halo games. Halo 4 and 5 has done decently in terms on sales, but popularity and staying power wise, halo 5 was ok but Halo 4…well, we all know it did absolutely terrible in these areas. So to me, it’s a no brainer to try a non sprint mechanic animation\ADS style zooming animation Halo game and see what happens. If it does worst or better then you have your answer in which direction to take the series.

As myself and many others have said many times now, one can easily make the case that Halo isn’t the face of Xbox anymore and it certainly isn’t the system seller that it used to be. Something needs to change IMO if they want Halo to be the face of there console once again.

[Spartan_A498]

> 2535437031951215;1538:
> I’m hoping that with the new looking classic art style that means the return of classic movement too.

Frome what I have gathered is that the new old look is the unsc learning from new and old the armor chief is waring is a gen 3 armor system not gen 1 or gen2 but it will have the movement of gen 2 (halo4 and 5) and the style of gen 1 (halo ce 2 3 and reach) and that is probably the same mentality for the changes in alot of the other things in halo infinite

[JenguBlocku]

The way I see it, 343 have 3 options when it comes to the gameplay;

1. They go full “Advanced” mobility or full classic gameplay. But this would alienate a significant portion of the community.

2. They go full “Advanced” mobility and have a set of classic playlists. While not a terrible idea on paper, the amount of work that would be needed for this would be quite the under taking for 343.

3. They have a newish style of gameplay that retains some of H5s mechanics and gut the rest to fit a more ‘classic’ feel. (I.E; keep thrusters, clamber, stabilizers and ditch Sprint, charge and slide. Faster BMS w/ wider FoV.)

Realistically, all these options will have negative effects on somebody, but I think it is safe to say 343 know full well that there are two main vocal groups when it comes to gameplay; those who want classic and those who want advanced mobility. To be honest, they would have to be absolutely blind not to at least try option 2.

Personally, while I would love Halo Infinite to be a ‘classic’ Halo, I also know 343 won’t do that. Ultimately I think 343 should go with option 3. But that’s just my opinion.