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> > > > If Halo stayed classic through all of the titles people would be wining for change and more advanced movement.
> > >
> > > That’s a baseless assumption…
> > > 1) Keeping a cerain formula doesn’t mean no change at all, take a look at the massive change from HCE to H2 and the minor but still important changes from H2 to H3, and still, people refer to all of those games as “classic”
> > > 2) And then there is CS, a game that has barely changed for almost 20 years and still is popular.
> > >
> > > Maybe people would be upset, maybe not, there is no way to find out anymore
>
> We won’t go back. If Infinite will have the run & gun gameplay once again, we will move forward by improving the formular.
They will go back to classic movement because it’s apparent that the formula was perfectly fine how it was. Sprint is one of the most pointless mechanics in shooters, especially Halo where sprint was never even necessary.
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> > >
> >
> > Says who? Who has the future telling powers to say “We needed Sprint and no matter what we can’t ever go back” instead of the many other changes that could have been done?
> >
> > Like clearly people aren’t against every kind of change. I haven’t seen people upset about vehicle seat switching. Clearly the idea of “change” on the surface isn’t the issue.
>
> I’m not saying we can’t go back, it’s just very unlikely
And why is that? More often than not the answer to that becomes something subjective or not gameplay related, while the argument against it generally becomes gameplay related.
What makes this certain change so much more concrete than the hundred other changes this series had?
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> > > 2533275001522797;1493:
> > > > 2533274801973487;1488:
> > > > > 2533275001522797;1486:
> > > > > If Halo stayed classic through all of the titles people would be wining for change and more advanced movement.
> > > >
> > > > That’s a baseless assumption…
> > > > 1) Keeping a cerain formula doesn’t mean no change at all, take a look at the massive change from HCE to H2 and the minor but still important changes from H2 to H3, and still, people refer to all of those games as “classic”
> > > > 2) And then there is CS, a game that has barely changed for almost 20 years and still is popular.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe people would be upset, maybe not, there is no way to find out anymore
> >
> > We won’t go back. If Infinite will have the run & gun gameplay once again, we will move forward by improving the formular.
>
> They will go back to classic movement because it’s apparent that the formula was perfectly fine how it was. Sprint is one of the most pointless mechanics in shooters, especially Halo where sprint was never even necessary.
I think you misunderstood me. We share the same opinion. But I refuse to call it “classic” because I personally think that it brings the formular I believe in a bad spotlight. It’s not a discussion about classic / modern, it should be a discussion about preference.
And I prefer the already etablished run & gun / one movement speed formular.
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> > 2535430289047128;1475:
> >
>
> Halo so I wasn’t talking about the dictionary definition. What do you mean by “Don’t be an idiot, you know what your doing.”? Is that a very constructive post? What I’m saying is Halo, the game will always be Halo, the game until it is renamed or done. Now can we return to the original topic?
Notice how I say that after my constructive disagreements (which, yes, I gave). And I never strayed from the og topic, you did and I explained how you did (by talking about actual halo rings and not the game, and no, definitions should not be treated the same as game mechanics).
> 2535448062173159;1502:
> > 2535473481267884;1501:
> > > 2533275001522797;1493:
> > > > 2533274801973487;1488:
> > > > > 2533275001522797;1486:
> > > > > If Halo stayed classic through all of the titles people would be wining for change and more advanced movement.
> > > >
> > > > That’s a baseless assumption…
> > > > 1) Keeping a cerain formula doesn’t mean no change at all, take a look at the massive change from HCE to H2 and the minor but still important changes from H2 to H3, and still, people refer to all of those games as “classic”
> > > > 2) And then there is CS, a game that has barely changed for almost 20 years and still is popular.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe people would be upset, maybe not, there is no way to find out anymore
> >
> > We won’t go back. If Infinite will have the run & gun gameplay once again, we will move forward by improving the formular.
>
> They will go back to classic movement because it’s apparent that the formula was perfectly fine how it was. Sprint is one of the most pointless mechanics in shooters, especially Halo where sprint was never even necessary.
It is certainly very apparent to us as players/consumers. But I can imagine the perception of it muddies if you’re at 343. I hope they can see how great the formula was now, because they obviously didn’t when they tried their hardest to diminish its importance through their additions in H4 and to a lesser extent H5. The returning art style and split screen are nice, but we will have to hope, wait, and see if they continue that trend with the gameplay.
I hear a large group of people to wanting to keep the “advanced movement” mechanics that were introduced in H5. However, from the way I’ve experienced it, the mechanics do not advance anything. Both sprint and clamber restrict control over your character. While performing these actions, you can’t shoot, throw grenades, or reload. The maps have actually been designed so that you must use these mechanics, but it just doesn’t need to be that way. All the map heights have been adjusted so that you have to clamber instead of just jumping. The corridors and map sizes have been lengthened to accommodate sprint.
You ultimately gain no advantage from these new mechanics while still bearing all of the negatives. In fact, I would argue that these two mechanics actually slow down the game play instead of speeding it up. Every clamber and every start/stop of sprint results in a complete halt of gameplay where you have no control.
Just go back and watch/play some halo 2/3, and you will see how dynamic the gameplay is. It’s full tilt, all action as you always have the ability to shoot and fight back against your opponents. All of this while strategically jumping and timing your movement through the map.
I would concede that the thrust ability has it’s advantages as it is such a short, quick burst of movement, and you have to be strategic about when you use it, as there is a recharge time.
My personal vote would be to abandon sprint and clamber, and in its stead, slightly increase the base movement speed and jump heights, which would truly increase the speed of gameplay.
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> > > > > > > 2533274801973487;1488:
> > > > > > > > 2533275001522797;1486:
> > > > > > > > If Halo stayed classic through all of the titles people would be wining for change and more advanced movement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, some players would be whining (not wining) if Infinite made a return to Halo’s signature style, but we’re at a point where no solution exists that would make everyone happy. All 343i can do is try to appeal to as many Halo fans as possible. If returning to “classic” Halo is how they try to achieve that, I’ll be estatic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Classic movement (not movent) works. Sprint’s inclusion needed many concessions through three games (especially so with H5) and it still doesn’t mitigate all the problems the mechanic brings.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also “Imagine if while you sprinted you could still regain shields and get shot and still be able to sprint… If sprint was that way then I’d have a problem with it”? After saying “I don’t have a problem with sprint in Reach, that’s just my own opinion”?
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, in Reach you run out of breath or whatever and have to wait for it to return. Not to mention that not ALL the players spawn in with sprint in fact no one really used sprint. Anyone else want to take a poke at me?
>
> I thought you were talking about how you’d like Sprint implemented in Infinite or just how you want Sprint in Halo in general. Was I mistaken?
>
> Which way of implementing Sprint do you prefer? Reach, H4, or H5? How would you want it implemented in Infinite?
>
> ”I didn’t experience people who used sprint a lot in Reach because I played this gametype instead of those gametypes” is a very different statement from “In fact no one really used sprint”…
If Infinite does have sprint I’d like it to be the Reach way but, if I had I choice I’d choose no sprint though I don’t mind it.
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> > >
>
> What do you mean classic movement is still in the roots? Strafing has been effected because of the addition of thrusters and weapon magnetism needing to be raised to account for sprint. Clamber makes crouch jumping irrelevant as you get something that saves you from dieing g and it’s required to hit certain parts of a map, crouch jumping really isn’t an option anymore. I’m not seeing any roots 🤷
>
> Sprint punishing you is exactly a negative, there’s no way around that when again, it also irks those who like it and it still doesn’t satisfy those who had a problem with it to begin with, it solves nothing.
>
> “Imagine if while you sprinted you could still regain shields or get shot and still be able to sprint? You could be almost invincible” I mean, reach and H4 did that, hence why people referenced sprint as a get out of jail card cause you could run away from from losing fights, it did nothing but agitate and punished those who were winning their engagements.
>
> “And last time I checked this isn’t feedback straight to 343” last I checked this is their official forums And people post in it for a reason, part of it to do with feedback to the developers as typically that’s why forums were made🤔.
90% of the time when I’m strafing I’m not using thrusters and most people usually don’t until the final shot. Clamber does not make crouch jumping irrelevant because high level players crouch jump all the time so that they won’t clamber. Clamber makes your spartan vulnerable to attacks because your weapon is lowered (just in case you didn’t know) most of the time clamber makes people die. So, sprint shouldn’t punish you? So, I shouldn’t be punished if I miss a shot with a sniper and the enemy kills me? I shouldn’t be punished if I miss a jump and fall off the map? Punishment is in every video game out there. In Reach you ran out of breath or whatever and had to stop so, you couldn’t sprint forever. Halo 4 was a mess imo it’s the easiest Halo multiplayer. You can just sprint away from anything how do you think most players earned perfections so easily? Was this thread posted by an employee of 343?
> 2533274808661744;1507:
> I hear a large group of people to wanting to keep the “advanced movement” mechanics that were introduced in H5. However, from the way I’ve experienced it, the mechanics do not advance anything. Both sprint and clamber restrict control over your character. While performing these actions, you can’t shoot, throw grenades, or reload. The maps have actually been designed so that you must use these mechanics, but it just doesn’t need to be that way. All the map heights have been adjusted so that you have to clamber instead of just jumping. The corridors and map sizes have been lengthened to accommodate sprint.
> You ultimately gain no advantage from these new mechanics while still bearing all of the negatives. In fact, I would argue that these two mechanics actually slow down the game play instead of speeding it up. Every clamber and every start/stop of sprint results in a complete halt of gameplay where you have no control.
> Just go back and watch/play some halo 2/3, and you will see how dynamic the gameplay is. It’s full tilt, all action as you always have the ability to shoot and fight back against your opponents. All of this while strategically jumping and timing your movement through the map.
> I would concede that the thrust ability has it’s advantages as it is such a short, quick burst of movement, and you have to be strategic about when you use it, as there is a recharge time.
> My personal vote would be to abandon sprint and clamber, and in its stead, slightly increase the base movement speed and jump heights, which would truly increase the speed of gameplay.
I agree. Imho all abilities should be removed, especially Thruster pack. I miss the ground gameplay and the classic strafe system.
but it will never happen. Every developer wants to innovate, both for artistic motivation and for commercial issues related to sales of the game. I think the best we can hope for is to have two areas classic & modern.
My problem with the advanced movement mechanics is how they influence map design. In Reach, Sprint wasn’t as big of a deal because the maps were made without Sprint in mind in most cases. I personally used the Jetpack every game and never touched Sprint unless it was the only option.
I have friends who only return to Halo 5 when the Halo 3 playlist is up. If you were to play the Halo 3 settings on a Halo 5 map, you would see that the maps are stretched out or have jumps that are impossible without clamber.
The Halo 3 playlist using forged Halo 3 maps is twofold. One is for the fun of playing on these classic maps again, but the other reason is this is the only place these classic settings can be played.
I think the Match Composer in MCC is great, and hope it returns for Halo Infinite. Having an option for movement like Classic/Advanced/Both in the settings before queuing could alleviate a lot of problems, but then it comes down to map design. The maps have to made without the advance movement mechanics (sprint and clamber primarily) in mind, and I unfortunately don’t see that happening.
A compromise I’m okay with is maps having jumps that do not require clamber, but clamber still exists. This allows the more skillful player to traverse without being vulnerable on a jump, and allows a less skilled player to follow but at the expense of defense. Getting killed while clambering will motivate you to learn how to jump properly, but if you can’t be bothered you can always risk the clamber.
> 2533274815711361;1510:
> My problem with the advanced movement mechanics is how they influence map design. In Reach, Sprint wasn’t as big of a deal because the maps were made without Sprint in mind in most cases. I personally used the Jetpack every game and never touched Sprint unless it was the only option.
Completely agree here. This is probably the most noticeable change to me while playing (talking Halo 4 since I’ve only played a little of 5). Smaller maps are often more memorable and unique (at least to me) and you can probably focus more on how each section of the map plays and works together when the total area you have to work with is smaller. I think my favorite map ever is Lockout. It demonstrates how a simple yet elegant design can provide amazing gameplay.
> 2779900484279609;1511:
> > 2533274815711361;1510:
> > My problem with the advanced movement mechanics is how they influence map design. In Reach, Sprint wasn’t as big of a deal because the maps were made without Sprint in mind in most cases. I personally used the Jetpack every game and never touched Sprint unless it was the only option.
>
> Completely agree here. This is probably the most noticeable change to me while playing (talking Halo 4 since I’ve only played a little of 5). Smaller maps are often more memorable and unique (at least to me) and you can probably focus more on how each section of the map plays and works together when the total area you have to work with is smaller. I think my favorite map ever is Lockout. It demonstrates how a simple yet elegant design can provide amazing gameplay.
Lockout is also my favorite map of all time.
The only Halo 4 map I can remember is Haven. Besides that, I can’t recall the name of a Halo 4 or 5 map. But that could be attributed to my failing memory rather than gameplay :P.
> 2533274874453277;1509:
> I agree. Imho all abilities should be removed, especially Thruster pack. I miss the ground gameplay and the classic strafe system.
>
> but it will never happen. Every developer wants to innovate, both for artistic motivation and for commercial issues related to sales of the game. I think the best we can hope for is to have two areas classic & modern.
I’m starting to think this is probably the most likely outcome, unfortunately. From past actions, it doesn’t seem like a non-spartan ability game is going to come from 343. We can hope, but realistically they are probably just going to make some changes here, some band--Yoink!- there. They like to implement something and then try to patch that thing, instead of just admitting it is a negative mechanic and scrapping it. That’s how we ended up where we are.
The downside to this is we probably won’t get MP maps designed for the classic gameplay. 343’s pride will probably lead to neglecting this side of the game, and my guess is Halo’s popularity will continue its slow and painful decline.
I feel like I’ve never heard a good argument in favour of sprint. Fans that are against sprint can say that it stretches the maps, rewards bad positioning, causes escapability problems because of the ttk, weapons are harder to balance, game modes are harder to balance, you can only move the maximum speed going forwards, movement and combat are separated, it’s part of why we had the double melee problem and now spartan charge etc. And the one thing all of these arguments have in common is that they point out the flaws of sprint as a mechanic, not once did I mention continuity or lore. But the only pro sprint argument I ever hear is “a super soldier should be able to sprint, therefore halo needs to have it” I never hear anybody explain why it’s actually beneficial to Halo as a base mechanic.
> 2779900484279609;1514:
> > 2533274874453277;1509:
> > I agree. Imho all abilities should be removed, especially Thruster pack. I miss the ground gameplay and the classic strafe system.
> >
> > but it will never happen. Every developer wants to innovate, both for artistic motivation and for commercial issues related to sales of the game. I think the best we can hope for is to have two areas classic & modern.
>
> I’m starting to think this is probably the most likely outcome, unfortunately. From past actions, it doesn’t seem like a non-spartan ability game is going to come from 343. We can hope, but realistically they are probably just going to make some changes here, some band--Yoink!- there. They like to implement something and then try to patch that thing, instead of just admitting it is a negative mechanic and scrapping it. That’s how we ended up where we are.
>
> The downside to this is we probably won’t get MP maps designed for the classic gameplay. 343’s pride will probably lead to neglecting this side of the game, and my guess is Halo’s popularity will continue its slow and painful decline.
It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past. Is it better to have a single gameplay and 10,000 online players, or two gameplays and 100,000 online players? we would stop discussing the same things because everyone would have the gameplay they prefer.
> 2533274874453277;1516:
> > 2779900484279609;1514:
> > > 2533274874453277;1509:
> > > I agree. Imho all abilities should be removed, especially Thruster pack. I miss the ground gameplay and the classic strafe system.
> > >
> > > but it will never happen. Every developer wants to innovate, both for artistic motivation and for commercial issues related to sales of the game. I think the best we can hope for is to have two areas classic & modern.
> >
> > I’m starting to think this is probably the most likely outcome, unfortunately. From past actions, it doesn’t seem like a non-spartan ability game is going to come from 343. We can hope, but realistically they are probably just going to make some changes here, some band--Yoink!- there. They like to implement something and then try to patch that thing, instead of just admitting it is a negative mechanic and scrapping it. That’s how we ended up where we are.
> >
> > The downside to this is we probably won’t get MP maps designed for the classic gameplay. 343’s pride will probably lead to neglecting this side of the game, and my guess is Halo’s popularity will continue its slow and painful decline.
>
> It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
>
> Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past. Is it better to have a single gameplay and 10,000 online players, or two gameplays and 100,000 online players? we would stop discussing the same things because everyone would have the gameplay they prefer.
And why exactly should the run & gun (classic) supporters draw the short straw? Why should this huge portion of the community be satisfied with a handful community maps?
What about the campaign (which is also very important to a lot of fans) - the campaign is not just about the story, the campaign is also about gameplay, which leads me to my next point: Gunplay / Weapon Sandbox - which is literally one of the most important aspects (if not the most) of a FPS.
It’s not possible to design a FPS for 2 entirely differently gameplay-styles without sacrificing half of the resources. And this does not just apply to multiplayer, I’m not gonna even dive into the issues with the campaign, because the second most important part of the campaign is the AI. How will it be possible to design a whole campaign around 2 different gameplay styles? It’s really not as simple as “Sprint disabled / enabled for campaign, there you go - problem solved”, as many would like to have it (because of several factors as mentioned above)
> 2533274874453277;1516:
> It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
>
> Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past. Is it better to have a single gameplay and 10,000 online players, or two gameplays and 100,000 online players? we would stop discussing the same things because everyone would have the gameplay they prefer.
And what if you end up with two gameplays and 10,000 players online? Trying to give something for both groups means inevitably compromising on either one, or both styles of gameplay. Which style would appear in the campaign? One group is going to be disappointed. How do you balance the weapons? Both styles are going to have different movement characteristics, so if you want to make both work adequately, you will need to balance separately. When it comes to your suggestion of Forge maps, that’s not going to cut it. As great as the modern Forge is, Forge maps are still no substitute for developer made maps. Finally, more playlists will necessarily lead to either either split populations between duplicate playlists, or playlists that are barely populated. Neither is ideal, because you’d want players to have the best matchmaking experience possible.
A compromise helps no one, because rather than providing the best experience you can for some people, you’re providing a mediocre experience for everyone. As far as I’m concerned, a mediocre experience is worse than no experience at all.
> 2533274825830455;1518:
> > 2533274874453277;1516:
> > It would be enough to create a classic area with forge community maps. Some remakes of the old classics, others new.
> >
> > Some peoples do not want two different gameplay, but i say: even the mlg playlists were different from team slayer, in the past. Is it better to have a single gameplay and 10,000 online players, or two gameplays and 100,000 online players? we would stop discussing the same things because everyone would have the gameplay they prefer.
>
> Which style would appear in the campaign? One group is going to be disappointed. Imho, campaign must be modern. The classic area would be just multiplayer.
>
> **How do you balance the weapons? Both styles are going to have different movement characteristics, so if you want to make both work adequately, you will need to balance separately.**Separately balance, obviously. I think it would not be a problem.
> When it comes to your suggestion of Forge maps, that’s not going to cut it. As great as the modern Forge is, Forge maps are still no substitute for developer made maps. I think all classic fans would be happy to play on forge maps, rather than nothing.
>
> **Finally, more playlists will necessarily lead to either either split populations between duplicate playlists, or playlists that are barely populated. Neither is ideal, because you’d want players to have the best matchmaking experience possible.**Imho this thing can only work if we consider the classic mechanics as competitive and the modern ones as normal experience (but equally ranked, not social). As in the past, on H3 and H Reach, there were the MLG and Harcore playlists that were different form the others (in H Reach they were very different) in the same way you could keep unchanged many of the current playlists except the competitive area. For example:
>
> HCS (classic gameplay, competitive)
> Team Arena
> Team Slayer
> Team Double
> Head to Head
>
> INFINITE (modern gameplay, ranked but no competitive):
> Elimination
> Team Slayer
> Team Swat
> FFA
>
> I do not want to presume to say that this would work better, it’s just my idea about it.
I personally don’t have much of a problem with Halo returning to it’s roots, I feel Reach, H4 and H5 tried something new and it didn’t quite work out as well as it could have. For me H5 has some of the worst abilities ever to grace a Halo game, ground pound, stabilize, spartan charge they all feel cheap and tacked on, I don’t mind Sprint or clamber/mantling (although the crouch jumping separated the Spartans from the boys).
A faster based movement speed and some bloody good multiplayer maps and I’ll be very happy.
> 2812739231567241;1520:
> I feel Reach, H4 and H5 tried something new and it didn’t quite work out as well as it could have.
I feel this since H3. No hitscan, too invasive equips, too open maps except someone as guardian and heretic. Imho the best multiplayer (best sandbox and best maps) were H2 and HCE.
I prefer H2 to HCE because as much as I love CE, I do not like the idea of a gameplay where the magnum is more effective than any other power weapon. H2 BR was the best experience, imho.