The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> 2533274825830455;1420:
> Too late, that’s already part of established canon.

Where?

> So, it’s canon that’s given to us, but when given apparently conflicting canon,

What, the off-shoot issue of sprinting from Legends? I’m refuting examples given with evidence, that’s far from dismissing stuff because I don’t like it.

> The important question I guess is: do you denounce Spartan Abilities on the same basis you denounce wall running?

Some of them? Yes, I’m not particularly crazy about the DFA attack. Of all the things that thrusters can do, that one stretches believability even in the Halo Universe just a touch too far for me. Spartan Charge as well, while possible for a Spartan to do - like wall running - has such a small scope of applicability that it should have just been left out. For the same reason I have said - repeatedly - that while Spartans might be able to wall run, with all the tools at their disposal, the regions they typically fight in, and the method in which they typically fight in, wall running has such a small - if not non-existent - presence in that combat that it’s inclusion as a game mecahnic becomes gimmick.

> 2533274801176260;1421:
> Yes, it is a personal view because you pick and choose what you consider canon and what not for the purpose of this discussion.

  1. Legends has many visual inconsistencies that pander to anime-style action. It also had a few non-canonical plot points, so much so that 343i had to step in and create a clan name for “The Major” and make him an entirely different Sangheili - he was intended, in The Package to be the same Thel as the Arbiter. Spartan Lasers also do not cause huge fiery explosions, or have enough firepower to blow open Covenant ship doors. None of the various Covenant races - especially the Jiralhanae - have green blood, nor are there any circumstances in which blood would appear green. Kelly canonically has brown hair, not red. Halsey is also not a 20-something blonde waife.

But over-the-top combat visuals in an entire piece meant to “wow” the audience are supposed to represent absolute canon? Canon that - in terms of physical ability - is exceptionally difficult to do, much less replicate with any regularity?

  1. Watching it frame-by-frame, there is a body shot (blood out the left shoulder), an unclear shot (the camera moves too quickly), and another body shot (blood out the back). Also in that shot, we don’t see the Chief moving until those Jackals drop, so it’s unknown for a fact whether he was sprinting at that moment or not. From those three kills, there’s not another kill to be made from the Chief, and he continues to take fire while running, getting off only a few unaimed shots. I refute that example, because it doesn’t show much of anything as to what you’re getting at.

  2. These are not the first or only times that visual mediums (especially in the case of Legends) have presented visuals that do not line up with canon. Notable other examples would be the Fall of Reach comics, The Fall of Reach animated short, and the Halo Graphic Novel. Hell, Josh Holmes has even stated that the Spartans’ armor in the Halo 4 intro cinematic isn’t canonical, and Jeff Easterling has stated that the weapon strength evidently seen in Spartan Ops cutscenes is not canonical either. Here, hunt through this for visual inconsistencies.So, yes. I am arguing from a lore point of view. Especially when I’ve said repeatedly that while Spartans can physically do some of these things it makes very little sense for them to do so with any regularity.

> So what you’re saying is that is basically is possible using Mjolnir technology. Which we already know to have a gyroscope included and be able to armor lock specific parts into place…

I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying there. Have you ever seen those spoons for people with tremors or Parkinson’s? The ones that stay steady no matter how much they’re shaking? That’s what would be needed to counter the natural sway and bounce from rapid forward movement. A Spartan could mitigate that with acute timing, but they would not be able to control the spread of an Assault Rifle firing full auto while doing so, or fire a precision weapon rapidly.

Also while Mjolnir armor systems do have the ability to lock the armor in place to prevent damage, I cannot find any source that states anything about having a gyroscope. However, locking anything in place would not solve the issue, but rather make it worse.

> Correct. And one of the things that happened in The Package is–

No. That is a visual. The event is Blue Team infiltrating a Covenant super carrier. And as above, it’s not the only one that’s wrong, especially with that scene. Not from my point of view, not from my “personal take”, but from everything else. What happened is that somehow (and for some reason) the Covenant captured Dr. Halsey. A team of Spartan II’s - including Fred, Kelly and John, of Blue Team - deployed from an ONI Prowler via OF92 Booster Frames, intercepted the Covenant fleet, and rescued Dr. Halsey. Arthur-079 and Solomon-069 were lost in the operation.

> You mean this?

No, I mean actual dinosaurs.

> Wrong. Your definition of redundancy perfectly fits clamber, which makes it one ability without purpose. It was given (artificial) purpose by forcefully raising ledges so they can no longer be reached with jump. In the same way, chasms can be forcefully elongated so they can no longer be crossed with jumps to (equally artificially) giving it purpose.

Or clamber can be used if you just miss a jump. It allows a player to reach areas previously only gotten to by either standing on someone’s head or grenade jumping. Places that have always been in Halo, but were - for one reason or another - inaccessible. Which makes it not redundant, as it’s a better alternative to shoulder hopping or grenade jumping.

Widening a chasm, on the other hand, would require making it longer than - according to tsassi’s estimate - fourteen times a Spartan’s height. That’s longer than 84 feet. If we’re already able to scale distances that far, maps would have to be enormously long to accommodate what would essentially become a platforming game. Why? We can assumedly cover 80 feet in a single jump, and not even that occurs with regularity. And if you’re wanting to wall run eighty-four feet, you might as well just be able to walk on walls. Even in games that include wall running, that’s an insanely unrealistic distance to defy gravity for that long. “Oh, but what about using thrusters to–” if we’re already using thrusters, we might as well just jump it. Making wall running… redundant.

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> 2533274804813082;1422:
> > 2533274825830455;1420:
> > Too late, that’s already part of established canon.
>
> Where?

The completely over the top introductory cutscene of Osiris at the start of the first mission of Halo 5 was what I meant. Of course, now I realize that Master Chief “giving the Covenant back their bomb” in Halo 2 is also an example of an unnecessary reckless action, so it’s not like Spartans doing reckless things for sake of entertainment is a new thing.

> So, it’s canon that’s given to us, but when given apparently conflicting canon,

What, the off-shoot issue of sprinting from Legends? I’m refuting examples given with evidence, that’s far from dismissing stuff because I don’t like it.It was just a general remark on the “some things […] don’t fit […] because they deviate from the majority of the canon”.

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> 2533274804813082;1419:
> > 2533274795123910;1418:
> > Also, as far as the terrains and environments that they primarily fight in, here’s a quote from earlier which slightly touches that subject:
>
> So again, how does a map necessitate wall-running, when we already possess ample mobility abilities, without introducing redundancy? And without making wall-running just some gimmick to look cool? All the abilities that we currently have possess a purpose, so on top of needing to fit within the canon as established, wall running would need an equal sense of purpose.

Seeing as your own quote, showcasing knowledge of how player abilities affect map design, I’m surprised your own quote wasn’t understood.

The maps are designed around the abilities as to create a certain flow the map designer has in mind.
i343 game designers thinking whatever ability need to be implemented because it “enriches and deepens the gameplay” as seen with sprint ( PLAYER EXPECTATIONS ), I’m also sure they want to showcase the abilities and have them be useful within the game they’re present.

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> > That reason has changed, from it being implausable as walls could collapse,
>
> Gods, not that -BLAM-ing point that, oh yes, I bloody well conceded. Are we not allowed to have multiple issues with something?

I’m aware you conceded it, does it look like I’m still arguing you over it?

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> > to not being something a spartan would do, to now having more “practical” ways of doing the same thing.
>
> This is my issue. Focus on this, instead of dragging in for the millionth time something I’ve said “Oh, yeah, I guess they aren’t as heavy as I thought. Never mind on that.” Show me a reason why a Spartan would suddenly decide to act like an Assassin. Give me an example of why they would resort to going parkour instead of just jumping over a gap. Give anything beyond “Well, there’s nothing that says they can’t.”

How can it be the issue when it wasn’t the first one?

-More mobility
-Even longer reach than before
-More elusive as a target

Wall jumping even isn’t far off with this even.

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> > Me talking about wall running augmenting a Spartan’s “natural abilities”, is the same thing as me earlier explaining how a wall wouldn’t collapse due to a Spartan wall running on it.
>
> You were right about the wall because I mis-remembered a Spartan’s weight. That doesn’t mean you’re automatically right about Spartans’ natural abilities augmenting wall running. Especially since I’ve said - repeatedly - that while a Spartan could wall-run, within the Halo canon it just does not make sense for them to.

So being augmented, encased in an exoskeleton suit which further enhance your abilities, along with having thrusters, their “natural abilities”, are not augmenting wall running? How?

I’m sure any rational person possessing a certain skill, are not going to utilise that skill, because “it doesn’t make sense for them to utilise it”, despite them having it.

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> With a Spartan’s natural abilities we should also be able to wield Mongeese as blunt weapons (and there’s even lore on that); should that be added into the game too? What about kicking? Halo could become a regular ol’ Street Fighter throwdown, with loadouts allowing for CQC tactics. There’s nothing that says a Spartan can’t do all those things, and it could be balanced, right?

Yes I’m sure they could add all these things in, and keep them balanced if they put their focus on it.
There’d be uses for picking up heavy items, use them as heavy melee weapons, albeit slow, throw them or put them down.
Kicking would certainly be usefull for sending weapons to team mates, pushing back enemies who are too close, or doing a fun assassination.
A more advanced melee system could enhance the somewhat lacklustre melee we have now.

Question is if I’d like it.

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> But it won’t, because that’s not Halo’s style. Spartans in the lore might resort to those things in extreme cases, but it’s not a norm. And just because a Spartan can physically wall-run, there are so few instances where it’s going to be needed that it becomes an impractical, flashy gimmick, rather than a tactical move.

Myes, “lore”.
I think I’ve pointed out twice in the recent past, that i343 writes the lore.
Going with how you percieve spartans, all of the above mentioned things, would be a-ok, if some / all of it landed in a game, because then it’d become the norm.
Other media depicting spartans doing these things, more frequently, too would make it ok for it to be in the games.
It’d become “Halo’s style”.

Impractical flashy gimmick?
Clamber?
Sprint?

> 2533274804813082;1419:
> > Because you can’t explain it?
> > Because there’s no actual explanation to this?
> > Because?
>
> As continued on in the same sentence, because it is irrelevant to the topic of wall running. Parallel to you, red herring to me.

So no, there’s no explanation as to why we’d need these “balances” for top speed, you just threw it out.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> No. That is a visual. The event is Blue Team infiltrating a Covenant super carrier. And as above, it’s not the only one that’s wrong, especially with that scene. Not from my point of view, not from my “personal take”, but from everything else. What happened is that somehow (and for some reason) the Covenant captured Dr. Halsey. A team of Spartan II’s - including Fred, Kelly and John, of Blue Team - deployed from an ONI Prowler via OF92 Booster Frames, intercepted the Covenant fleet, and rescued Dr. Halsey. Arthur-079 and Solomon-069 were lost in the operation.

I too could summarise the events of a few games, and dismiss anything that’s actually done in them as “visuals”, and insert my own Spartan Interpretation.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Or clamber can be used if you just miss a jump. It allows a player to reach areas previously only gotten to by either standing on someone’s head or grenade jumping. Places that have always been in Halo, but were - for one reason or another - inaccessible. Which makes it not redundant, as it’s a better alternative to shoulder hopping or grenade jumping.

Because missing a jump, and making it, is good game design…

So… Which places have “always been in Halo”, but were inaccessible?
I mean, if you design an area to be inaccessible, why would you suddenly decide to make it accessible when the game suddenly features a specific mechanic?
Is it going to be accessible or not?

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Widening a chasm, on the other hand, would require making it longer than - according to tsassi’s estimate - fourteen times a Spartan’s height. That’s longer than 84 feet. If we’re already able to scale distances that far, maps would have to be enormously long to accommodate what would essentially become a platforming game. Why? We can assumedly cover 80 feet in a single jump, and not even that occurs with regularity. And if you’re wanting to wall run eighty-four feet, you might as well just be able to walk on walls. Even in games that include wall running, that’s an insanely unrealistic distance to defy gravity for that long. “Oh, but what about using thrusters to–” if we’re already using thrusters, we might as well just jump it. Making wall running… redundant.

Why would the game have you wall run for 84 feet?
That’s absurd.
10 feet perhaps, 20?
You’d jump, engage wall run, jump off the wall, and thrust,
You’d do the same combo as you do to go over 84 feet, or whatever number you want to throw out, but add wall run to add some more length in on the distance travelled.

The bolded part:
Fun fact, double jump / boost jump was considered for Halo 5, but was cut because clamber was present.
I mean, we’re already using thrusters, we might as well just jump it. Making clamber… redundant.

GDC Halo 5

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> 2533274889489936;2:
> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?

Or increase base movement speed and such

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> 2533274804813082;1422:
> > So, it’s canon that’s given to us, but when given apparently conflicting canon,
>
> What, the off-shoot issue of sprinting from Legends? I’m refuting examples given with evidence, that’s far from dismissing stuff because I don’t like it.

I have yet to see actual evience from you regarding Legends or Forward Unto Dawn. You just perpetuate “doesn’t fit a Spartan’s fighting style”, then when giving proof to the contrary, you discount it as noncanon on no grounds whatsoever except your own distaste for anime (when FUD isn’t even anime at all).

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> 1. Legends has many visual inconsistencies that pander to anime-style action.

“Anime” is just an abbreviation of “animation”. It literally refers to any type of cartoon (drawn or CGI) that comes from Japan, exaggerated or not. So do you discount anything as noncanon that isn’t live action (or from a western studio)? (All the while discounting FUD, which is live action and not from Japan…)
This isn’t even touching on the fact that the entire Halo series is based on over-the-top 80’s sci-fi action movies that were equally “pandering”, just to a different type of audience, with different types of action and different power fantasies. Exaggeration is a core element of the franchise.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> It also had a few non-canonical plot points, so much so that 343i had to step in and create a clan name for “The Major” and make him an entirely different Sangheili - he was intended, in The Package to be the same Thel as the Arbiter.

He’s never actually refered to as Thel 'Vadamee in the film, so that’s still no contradiction, not even a retcon.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Spartan Lasers also do not cause huge fiery explosions, or have enough firepower to blow open Covenant ship doors.

“The M6 is a solid-state laser which produces a powerful microsecond-long pulse of energy capable of burning through thick plates of metallic laminates, nanocomposites, or hardened steel.”

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> None of the various Covenant races - especially the Jiralhanae - have green blood, nor are there any circumstances in which blood would appear green.

Actually, the drones have green blood, so yeah, great research you did there. But yes, that is one of the “visual inconsistencies” in Legends you referred to. Which I never denied existing.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Kelly canonically has brown hair, not red. Halsey is also not a 20-something blonde waife.

You know there is such a thing as hair coloring lotions, right?

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> But over-the-top combat visuals in an entire piece meant to “wow” the audience are supposed to represent absolute canon?

Yes. As long as that piece of media is acknowledged as canon.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Canon that - in terms of physical ability - is exceptionally difficult to do, much less replicate with any regularity?

I have no idea what you mean by “replicate”. As already mentioned, Spartans shooting while sprinting is consistent with canon all over the expanded media, except in the games where it was modified for balance, alongside dozens of other abilities that Spartans can and can’t do ingame.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Also in that shot, we don’t see the Chief moving until those Jackals drop, so it’s unknown for a fact whether he was sprinting at that moment or not.

So, you’re discounting that evidence because we never see chief shooting and an enemy falling over in the same camera angle? So you just assume that he stopped running at every single point in time when he’s not on screen? Do you even realize how absurd that sounds? You’re so hard in denial, I seriously think even if we had such a video proof, you would still claim that it was another bullet at the exact same second that killed the enemy.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> I refute that example, because it doesn’t show much of anything as to what you’re getting at.

Yes, it does. It shows that Spartans can shoot while sprinting. Even if he hadn’t headshotted those jackals or if those were just lucky shots… all of this pertains to accuracy, not to the general Spartan capabilities as a whole. I don’t give two flying -Yoinks!- whatever nonsense made-up fan-fiction you pull out of your -Yoink- next in order to reconcile this with your own prersonal preference of how Spartans should act… The fact of the matter is that we have several direct accounts of spartans shooting while sprinting in the expanded universe, proving that the games directly contradict canon, presumably for the sake of balance. So the entire point of dismissing any gameplay mechanic (such as wall running) based on lore is moot because the games don’t follow lore in the first place.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> 3. These are not the first or only times that visual mediums (especially in the case of Legends) have presented visuals that do not line up with canon. Notable other examples would be the Fall of Reach comics, The Fall of Reach animated short, and the Halo Graphic Novel. Hell, Josh Holmes has even stated that the Spartans’ armor in the Halo 4 intro cinematic isn’t canonical, and Jeff Easterling has stated that the weapon strength evidently seen in Spartan Ops cutscenes is not canonical either. Here, hunt through this for visual inconsistencies.So, yes. I am arguing from a lore point of view. Especially when I’ve said repeatedly that while Spartans can physically do some of these things it makes very little sense for them to do so with any regularity.

I have yet to see any quote from 343 Industries (or Bungie for that matter, since Legends was released while they were still in control of the franchise) that claims any part of Legends except Odd One Out as noncancon. Even the contradictory Halo Origins was delegated to an unreliable narrator (since Cortana is undergoing rampancy) which is not the same thing as noncanon. In this case it wouldn’t even apply, since none of the other stories except Prototype are retellings. If you have any proof to the contrary (and just as a reminder: disagreeing does not count as proof) then please enlighten me.
(And trust me, there is plenty of stuff in Legends that I would like to see retconned. But unlike you, I don’t pick and choose canon but take what’s “given to us” and try to make sense of that…)
Oh, also, the link to Halopedia you provided doesn’t even list The Package on its own and the only other mentions of the short are with regards to clothes in cryo tubes as well as Kelly’s accent, the latter of which is actually the only actual contradition that is mentioned. The only other mentions of Legens at all are the Prophets from Babysitter and Halsey’s glasses in Homecoming. So I have no idea what that was supposed to (dis)prove…

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying there. Have you ever seen those spoons for people with tremors or Parkinson’s? The ones that stay steady no matter how much they’re shaking? That’s what would be needed to counter the natural sway and bounce from rapid forward movement.

That is contemporary technology. I’m talking about technology from 500+ years in the future.
EDIT: Besides, auto-stabilizers for cameras are already of the size of a selfie-stick. (And even Parkinson spoons are ridiculously small.)
So why again could such a technology not exist within a Spartan’s armor?

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> However, locking anything in place would not solve the issue, but rather make it worse.

I have no idea how “steadying one’s aim” would make it worse…

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> A Spartan could mitigate that with acute timing, but they would not be able to control the spread of an Assault Rifle firing full auto while doing so, or fire a precision weapon rapidly.

Okay, so now you’re conceding that it is possible given enough training or using the correct weapon. We’re making progress here…

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> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Also while Mjolnir armor systems do have the ability to lock the armor in place to prevent damage, I cannot find any source that states anything about having a gyroscope.

The binoculars have a built-in gyroscope, able to project altitude and inclination onto the Spartan’s HUD. So do several of the weapons, such as Reach’s grenade launcher, which can bee seen on its reticule.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> No. That is a visual.

No it’s not. Running is an action. Shooting is an action. Shooting while running therefore is still an action. I can’t believe I have to explain this kindergarden level of logic.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Widening a chasm, on the other hand, would require making it longer than - according to tsassi’s estimate - fourteen times a Spartan’s height. That’s longer than 84 feet. If we’re already able to scale distances that far, maps would have to be enormously long to accommodate what would essentially become a platforming game. Why? We can assumedly cover 80 feet in a single jump, and not even that occurs with regularity.

I’m replying to the next few quotes out of order, because of the structure of the rebuttal.
First of all: No we can’t. The farthest a player in H5G can jump without the aid of any other mechanic is 40 feet, 50 with a sprinting headstart. In order to get further, you need a combination of sprint, jump, stabilize, thrust and ground pound… and clamber. In other words, you need additional mechanics in order to reach distances that cannot be covered with regular jumps. Sort-of like using something that explodes in order to reach increased height…
Will be continued after the next quote…

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Or clamber can be used if you just miss a jump. It allows a player to reach areas previously only gotten to by either standing on someone’s head or grenade jumping. Places that have always been in Halo, but were - for one reason or another - inaccessible. Which makes it not redundant, as it’s a better alternative to shoulder hopping or grenade jumping.

Exactly. It allows players to get to areas that they were still able to get before, using additional techniques. In the same sense, a wall run would allow players to get to areas the were still able to reach before, but just with a more streamlined mechanic. There is literally no difference between both mechanics in terms of design. I could just as easily say “Which makes it not redundant, as it’s a better alternative to [thrust-stabilize-clamber-jumping].” In terms of balance, I’d actually argue that wall running might be even more balanced than clamber, because it doesn’t allow you to recover from a messed-up jump but actually requires preparation by approaching a wall at an angle ahead of time. Regardless, if one of them is redundant, both are.

> 2533274804813082;1422:
> Even in games that include wall running, that’s an insanely unrealistic distance to defy gravity for that long.

You do know that Titanfall lets you wallrun indefinitely, right?

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> 2533274801176260;1426:
> “Anime” is just an abbreviation of “animation”. So do you discount anything as noncanon that isn’t live action?

The word “anime” refers exclusively to Japanese style of animation. Literally none of the reputed online dictionaries (Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc.) even lists any other definition, and even Wiktionary carefully gives the alternative definition with the warning label “proscribed”. Now, I’m sure someone somewhere has used the word in a nonstandard way to describe an animation that is neither Japanese, nor in the Japanese style, exceptions always exist. But there’s really no room for honest misinterpretation here. It’s clear that The Ragin Pagan was referring to Japanese style of animation, because that’s what the word anime primarily, and almost exclusively, means, and this is while ignoring all context of the discussion.

Did you genuinely not know that anime means Japanese style of animation, or were you just being needlessly and unreasonably pedantic?

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> 2533274825830455;1428:
> > 2533274801176260;1426:
> > “Anime” is just an abbreviation of “animation”. So do you discount anything as noncanon that isn’t live action?
>
> The word “anime” refers exclusively to Japanese style of animation. Literally none of the reputed online dictionaries (Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc.) even lists any other definition, and even Wiktionary carefully gives the alternative definition with the warning label “proscribed”.

Since the term “anime” is of japanese origin as the short form of “animēshon” and in the japanese language refers to all types of animation, I consider this the primary definition of the word, with the other being a connotation. However, the point I was trying to make is not affected by the difference in the meaning between the two definitions, because even japanese anime is not required to feature over-the-top action. Therefore I had already edited the post prior to your quote, to avoid such misunderstandings…

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> 2533274801176260;1429:
> > 2533274825830455;1428:
> > > 2533274801176260;1426:
> > > “Anime” is just an abbreviation of “animation”. So do you discount anything as noncanon that isn’t live action?
> >
> > The word “anime” refers exclusively to Japanese style of animation. Literally none of the reputed online dictionaries (Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc.) even lists any other definition, and even Wiktionary carefully gives the alternative definition with the warning label “proscribed”.
>
> Since the term “anime” is of japanese origin as the short form of “animēshon” and in the japanese language refers to all types of animation, I consider this the primary definition of the word, with the other being a connotation. Howver, the point I was trying to make is not affected by the difference in the meaning between the two definitions, because even japanese anime is not required to feature over-the-top action. Therefore I had already edited the post prior to your quote, to avoid such misunderstandings…

I think the particular style of Halo Legends is actually very relevant, because the series did take some artistic liberties with its visuals that I, too, think can not (and should not) seriously be considered canonical. The appearance of Halsey in The Pacakge, and the appearance of female Sangheili in The Duel come to mind. I’m sure the studios were given a ton more creative freedom than would normally be given to media. Heck, they even put in a shamelessly noncanon episode. From a canon point of view, I honestly think that Halo Legends needs to be considered with much greater care than other media.

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> 2533274825830455;1430:
> > 2533274801176260;1429:
> > > 2533274825830455;1428:
> > > > 2533274801176260;1426:
> > > > “Anime” is just an abbreviation of “animation”. So do you discount anything as noncanon that isn’t live action?
> > >
> > > The word “anime” refers exclusively to Japanese style of animation. Literally none of the reputed online dictionaries (Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc.) even lists any other definition, and even Wiktionary carefully gives the alternative definition with the warning label “proscribed”.
> >
> > Since the term “anime” is of japanese origin as the short form of “animēshon” and in the japanese language refers to all types of animation, I consider this the primary definition of the word, with the other being a connotation. Howver, the point I was trying to make is not affected by the difference in the meaning between the two definitions, because even japanese anime is not required to feature over-the-top action. Therefore I had already edited the post prior to your quote, to avoid such misunderstandings…
>
> I think the particular style of Halo Legends is actually very relevant, because the series did take some artistic liberties with its visuals that I, too, think can not (and should not) seriously be considered canonical. The appearance of Halsey in The Pacakge, and the appearance of female Sangheili in The Duel come to mind. I’m sure the studios were given a ton more creative freedom than would normally be given to media. Heck, they even put in a shamelessly noncanon episode. From a canon point of view, I honestly think that Halo Legends needs to be considered with much greater care than other media.

Maybe, but considering and dismissing are two different things. Especially with respect to realism, The Package is even one of the more tame installments of the collection, compared to the Arbiter’s last stand in the Duel or a similar scene in the Prototype. (The latter of which can be attributed to an unreliable narrator, as already mentioned. And yes, the former is one of the things I was referring to that I would gladly see retconned.) It’s certainly not more over-the-top than the H5G intro sequence. And as previously stated, I have yet to see any quote pertaining to larger parts of the episodes removed from canon by Word of God.

1432

Respect each others opinions and more importantly make sure to acknowledge each other, because I sure am seeing a lot of (not all of us):
“Classic movement”
“Too slow, new movement”
“I like classic movement”
“I agree enhanced mobility”

It’s like we are talking to ourselves. We are all Halo fans and more importantly humans, we should love each other. If some comments are just extreme ignore them.
:slight_smile:

1433

Hi, first post.

What I don’t understand is fans’ (I understand why this would not be the case from Microsoft, with halo being their star franchise) wishes for Halo to “keep up-to-date” and “modernise”.

Halo is a 20 year old franchise. For new experiences, players will go to new games - some of which provide that intrinsically in a way Halo cannot (example the actual format of the game), and some who do it through features example movement mechanics (which the games and universe were designed from the beginning to incorporate), and new players will not go to a 20 year old franchise that has incorporated new* (though, objectively unoriginal) features; see spartan abilities.

Thus, its place in 2018 and beyond is to occupy a niche by being classic Halo and nothing else - both accepting the inevitability of the game never achieving again its peak, and also being very daring in doing so. Accepting this, and moving forward with this in mind in my opinion has the greatest chance for success; it HOLDS its fan base rather than (safely) attempting to appeal to a new audience which isn’t there.

To say that sprint vs no sprint, or micro transactions, or story inconsistencies, are the issue here is also only a macrocosm of the destruction the franchise has endured. Remove all abilities from Halo 5 and the game is no better (probably even worse); it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire universe, spanning environments and sound design (ambient/environmental sounds in maps sound so cold and sterile, Halo has never been a true Sci-Fi with hyper-futuristic technology and sterility, there was always a great sense of groundedness and warmth from everything from colour palette to multiplayer map sound effects and lighting) and everything else I care not to list.

…

Hardy Lebel, one of only 4 creators of the original CE multiplayer, described he wanted Halo to be Quake meets Mario Party (he emphasises the party aspect).
everyone who commented here should think about that, I think.
The fact they’ve shared an emphasis on E-sports again makes me assume they’ve entirely missed this point yet again (and I am someone who is definitely into competitive play)

It is absolutely baffling that the heads of videogames at MS are allowing its flagship franchise to sink by totally incompetency. I can only hope the same suit who made 343 revert their art style also gave them a very stern talking to with a real threat of redundancy. To defend or dismiss decline of interest in the series as “the game is old”, or cite lore for nonsense multiplayer mechanics (seriously?) is just defending total mediocrity and is lazy on the part of fans. 343 still show a complete disregard and even arrogance towards the classic fans even in posts like the most recent Bulliten

1434

> 2533274795123910;1424:
> Seeing as your own quote, showcasing knowledge of how player abilities affect map design, I’m surprised your own quote wasn’t understood.

You’re assuming a great deal, and this exact issue is touched upon further on in my post, as well as further down here where it’s more relevant.

> I’m aware you conceded it, does it look like I’m still arguing you over it?

It’s sure getting brought up a whole lot for a point that was admittedly wrong. See, generally, when someone in a discussion says “Oh, yeah, I was wrong. My bad” the topic moves on. Here, it’s being dragged in repeatedly in a “remember when you said…?” manner. It’s very vexing, I’m sure you can understand. So let’s let this be the last of it, eh?

> How can it be the issue when it wasn’t the first one?

Well, maybe because I didn’t say it is the issue. I said it’s my issue, as in an issue with this notion of Spartans wall-running as a regular game mechanic. (Under full understanding that this is not, in any way shape or form a mechanic or inclusion up for addition to the Halo sandbox at this time.)

> -More mobility
> -Even longer reach than before
> -More elusive as a target

Points 1 & 2 - Not really. You’re not any more mobile that Spartans already are, and with a standing jump of 16.5 feet, a standard jump distance of 33 feet, a sprinting distance of 37 feet, an augmented (thruster) jump distance of 49.5 feet (all playtested against 3 lined up Scorpion tanks - each 33 ft long {source}), a Spartan can already clear most jumps encountered. Again, that’s:
Standing: 16.5 ft
Running: 33 ft
Sprinting: 37 ft
Sprint + Thruster: 49.5 ft

To make wall running effective, relevant, and useful, gaps would need to be - generously - longer than 33 feet. With thrusters and sprinting taken into account, they would need to be longer than 50 feet. Which is utterly preposterous for someone to be running along side a wall. So you are neither more mobile nor would you have even longer reach than already possessed.

Third point (3), you would not be more elusive as a target. It would be about the same as sprint, and I imagine you would also lose the use of your weapon while wall running. This would, in fact, make you more of a target on an equal level as sprinting, however sprinting does have the benefit of raising your movement speed above the standard maximum. In contrast, mechanics like clamber take literally less than a second, offering no hindrance to players, or presenting them as a greater target than they would already be (for example, if you’re being attacked from behind, the result would be the same as though you had not gone to clamber.) So in regards for hypothetically presenting a player as less of a target, wall running would not do so any more effectively than other existing mobility means, and would actually present several downsides to a player’s vulnerability.

> Wall jumping even isn’t far off with this even.

Yes it is. By quite a bit. In that scene John jumps off the Brute’s knee to deliver a back flip kick. Wall running is using momentum and typically the grip of rubber soled shoes - as well as steadying oneself against the wall with a hand - to travel in a sloping forward arc alongside a vertical wall. I have also noted that it’s physically possible for Spartans to do this, as well as saying the closest we’ve gotten thus far is when Osiris was running vertically down the body of a Guardian. I haven’t said that it’s impossible.

> I’m sure any rational person possessing a certain skill, are not going to utilise that skill, because “it doesn’t make sense for them to utilise it”, despite them having it.

If I can jump a maximum of 50 feet, and I’m a soldier fighting for my life and for others and presented with a moderate gap that - assumedly - I can clear with speed and ease by simply jumping, I’m not going to pause and think “I could wall run this. That’d be really cool!” No, such a thought would likely be automatically dismissed as “Who am I trying to impress, putting myself at greater risk like that?”

> Impractical flashy gimmick?
> Clamber?
> Sprint?

Clambering takes literally less than a second. Sprint has you doing just that - sprinting - and does functionally increase your speed. Both are functional so neither are a “gimmick” or impractical, and neither are flashy.

> So no, there’s no explanation as to why we’d need these “balances” for top speed, you just threw it out.

Boy, for days where people just took an explanation as what someone meant? Well, since we can’t seem to get away from it, might as well. And also, for clarification, it was a point that you brought up unrelated to wall running.

You asked a page back or so what would be unbalanced about sprinting and firing? Obviously that someone is being met with a faster moving target that is also able to damage them. If someone’s trying to get away, moving at a standard rate to allow their shields to recharge, having someone rapidly closing that gap to follow them into their cover, while also dealing damage to any recharging shields, is patently unbalanced. It allows for no retreat and recovery save for extreme distances between combatants. Having a person that can also rapidly close a distance while dealing damage to finish it off quickly with a melee is also an unbalanced situation, as it puts the aggressor at a significant advantage over an enemy on level ground. It would be as cheap at tactic as the “BXR” exploit that allowed players to rapidly melee twice, almost always instantly killing an opponent.

And in a similar regard, you don’t regain shields while sprinting because you’re already moving at an accelerated rate. You’re being given the opportunity to find cover quicker than someone moving normally, so being able to regain shields while moving out of range or behind cover would be overpowered. Removing shield recharge while sprinting balances the benefits and the drawbacks.

1435

> I too could summarise the events of a few games, and dismiss anything that’s actually done in them as “visuals”, and insert my own Spartan Interpretation.

Then account for green blood. Blonde and youthful Halsey. Redhead Kelly. Evil bug-eyed Sangheili. You get a pass on Thel “'Lodamee” because that flubb-up was already retconned. If everything seen in Legends is canon-as-gospel, you don’t get to pick and choose "oh, well that’s clearly not canon, but this one instance of them sprinting like bada***s totally is".

Visual canon would fall in line with what are the Spartan wearing; does the Mjolnir suit fit with the time and generation? Are the Spartans depicted biologically as they are described in the majority of existing canonical lore, or given ample example as to a change? Are the alien races depicted properly, following canonical biological structure? (e.g. Sangheili not having human-like mouths and noses) Do the weapons look true to canon, and behave as established? Etc. Etc.

Even 343i can’t just write the Spartans doing anything, and we have to take it as canon. That’s precisely why Glasslands presents such a canonical issue if one instance is taken as 100% canonical truth; namely, Lucy - in armor - punching Halsey in the face so hard that it numbed her arm to the shoulder, and Halsey standing up with nothing but a bloody nose. Canonically, Halsey’s face would have been a pulp, even had Lucy punched her that hard without armor. What we can take from that instance as canonically true (even allowing for the uncharacteristic behavior of Halsey) is that Lucy attacked Halsey in some degree - which must be minor such as a shove. Why? Because canonically a Spartan can punch so hard it can stop a heart and shatter ribs and internal organs. John did this as a child, and didn’t so much as break a sweat. And he wasn’t in armor. Lucy was, and she punched Halsey so hard that, again, Lucy felt the impact up to her shoulder. That’s a damn hard punch. With a metal fist. To the face of a sixty-one year old woman, who lived to gripe about it. Canonically, that cannot be.

In a similar fashion, the visual events of animes like The Package are meant to wow the viewer. They’re primarily entertainment, and are presented as such. As evident with the general lack of concern for canon (green blood, Halsey, Spartan Lasers causing gigantic fiery explosions, etc). Taking a single segment of Spartans sprinting down a hallway firing automatic weapons from a short that already plays loosely with canonical representation and trying to apply that as evidence for Spartans’ ability to fire weapons with repeated precision (that italicized word is important here and where I’ve said it before), is not as strong an argument as could be made for it.

> Because missing a jump, and making it, is good game design…

Were it so easy. It can just as well fall on human error, and misjudging the time in which one needs to jump to clear the gap. Be that as it may, if a combination of skillful jumping, thrusting, and clambering is what it takes to get to intentionally difficult to reach places (akin to grenade jumping in previous games), then that’s the method currently available to us. Assuming that both are made available, wall running would need to be more effective to retain any sort of usefulness.

> So… Which places have “always been in Halo”, but were inaccessible?

Ledges in Halo: Combat Evolved, particularly where the Fog skull is located in Halo: CEA. Several areas of geometry in The Library. The little crook up one of the hillsides in Blood Gulch, gotten to through grenade jumps or Banshee drop-off. Unofficial sniper nests in Halo 2 that require super bounces or using vehicles. Play through and hop around; if there’s a ledge just high enough that you can’t get up there with a basic jump, there you go.

> Why would the game have you wall run for 84 feet? That’s absurd.

Yes, it is absurd. But that was the going estimation for a Spartan’s maximum jump distance - not a number I just “threw out” and I’ve since playtested it up above at around 50 ft maximum in Halo 5 - so for wall running to maintain any semblance of usefulness, it would need to outperform that.

> The bolded part:
> Fun fact, double jump / boost jump was considered for Halo 5, but was cut because clamber was present.
> I mean, we’re already using thrusters, we might as well just jump it. Making clamber… redundant.

Well funner fact, it didn’t make it into the game, which makes this point irrelevant.

1436

> 2533274801176260;1426:
> I have yet to see actual evience from you regarding Legends or Forward Unto Dawn. You just perpetuate “doesn’t fit a Spartan’s fighting style”, then when giving proof to the contrary, you discount it as noncanon on no grounds whatsoever except your own distaste for anime (when FUD isn’t even anime at all).

Okay, first off, this is a quote-reply between me and tsassi. If we want to cut down on the “I didn’t say that” and retain proper replies to who said what, don’t but in to a conversation like this as though I owe you some manner of evidence for a point that’s not addressed to you.

Secondly, I’ve given quite a bit of evidence against Legends and even arguments trying to use Forward Unto Dawn. Noteworthy: various visual inconsistencies within The Package (Covenant having green blood, Halsey appearing to be 20-something and blonde, Spartan Lasers causing explosions from Covenant doors, etc). For FUD, I made mention how frame by frame, the Jackals are shot through their chests - evident through blood spatter locations. I can’t view the video that you linked because it’s not available in my country, so if you want to review that you’ll have to do that on your own, but I have noted what occurs for you, so you know what to look for. I’ve also noted that, in that scene, when we see the Chief actually running, we don’t see his shots landing, nor are his shots being clearly aimed (evident from his behavior–throwing the gun out and squeezing off shots). We don’t see kills being made, we do see him taking fire, so to try and use that scene as supporting evidence for Spartans sprinting and firing with accuracy is fallacious at best.

Thirdly, I never said that Forward Unto Dawn was an anime. This’ll go a lot better for everyone if my arguments aren’t misrepresented.

> He’s never actually refered to as Thel 'Vadamee in the film, so that’s still no contradiction, not even a retcon.

If memory serves, he is named as “Thel” in subtitles and in the credits. The name “Thel” wasn’t just pulled from thin air. That coupled with Luro 'Taralumee’s foreshadowing of “His only path now is death, or Arbiter” is clearly meant to indicated the Arbiter Thel 'Vadamee.

> “The M6 is a solid-state laser which produces a powerful microsecond-long pulse of energy capable of burning through thick plates of metallic laminates, nanocomposites, or hardened steel.”

Burning through is not “causes the door to explode in a fireball”. It would also burn through the door at the point projected, not blow the entire thing in. It’s a laser, not a rocket.

> Actually, the drones have green blood, so yeah, great research you did there.

Nice snark. Firstly, Yanme’e blood is white, with a green tint. Play any game with them and shoot them to observe this. Secondly, Yanme’e aren’t present in The Package, so they are completely irrelevant to my point of The Package’s visual inconsistency, regardless of wording in the quoted section. It’s clear what I’m talking about, what I’m referencing, so even while you acknowledge that it is correctly identified as a visual inconsistency, this whole bit of your post was completely unnecessary and uncalled for.

> You know there is such a thing as hair coloring lotions, right?

No, that’s completely new information to me. (That’s sarcasm.) And why, pray tell, would a Spartan care about something like that? Even allowing it, why would she dye her hair so briefly?

> Yes. As long as that piece of media is acknowledged as canon.

Problematic as noted above and throughout.

> So, you’re discounting that evidence because we never see chief shooting and an enemy falling over in the same camera angle? So you just assume that he stopped running at every single point in time when he’s not on screen?

I’m disputing that scene as evidence because it cannot be told - for a fact - that John was sprinting while shooting those three Jackals. He very well could have killed them, drawn attention to himself, and then began to run. You cannot tell me for a fact that he was sprinting while he killed them - with center-mass shots, mind you - because we plain do not see that.

> It shows that Spartans can shoot while sprinting.

Mind you, I’ve never said that they can’t.

> I don’t give two flying -Yoinks!- whatever nonsense made-up fan-fiction you pull out of your -Yoink- next in order to reconcile this with your own prersonal preference of how Spartans should act…

Okay seriously. If you want to continue this little back-and-forth, this needs to come full stop. I’m not going to try and discuss with childish outbursts and smears of opinion like this. I have not brought in nonsense fan fiction, or even personal preference (despite attempts to paint otherwise.) What I have brought to this is from lore and canon coupled with common sense and practicality in fitting with the norms of the Halo Universe. If you can’t go about this civilly, then I’ve very little interest in continued discussion with you. Call it a cop out if you want, but I’ve no time to have my points, arguments, and time relegated to whimsy pulled out my rear.

> The fact of the matter is that we have several direct accounts of spartans shooting while sprinting

You have two. One from an over-the-top anime short and the other from an unclear situation. Reach further before you claim several direct.

> I have yet to see any quote from 343 Industries (or Bungie for that matter, since Legends was released while they were still in control of the franchise) that claims any part of Legends except Odd One Out as noncancon.

What I’ve presented doesn’t require a quote. Brutes didn’t suddenly start having green blood for one encounter.

> Oh, also, the link to Halopedia you provided doesn’t even list The Package on its own and the only other mentions of the short are with regards to clothes in cryo tubes as well as Kelly’s accent, the latter of which is actually the only actual contradition that is mentioned. The only other mentions of Legens at all are the Prophets from Babysitter and Halsey’s glasses in Homecoming. So I have no idea what that was supposed to (dis)prove…

I already told you; rife through there and find inconsistencies that are visual in nature. I never specified The Package itself.

> So why again could such a technology not exist within a Spartan’s armor?

Maintaining a level for their weapon would require immobilization of their hand while allowing compensating movement to counter their body’s sway and bounce from their arms. It would render them unable to aim but for straight forward. But accuracy, right?

> I have no idea how “steadying one’s aim” would make it worse…

Try to lock your arms, run forward as fast as you can, and maintain pinpoint accuracy. Hold a laser pointer just so you can see how all-over-the-place your aim is.

> Okay, so now you’re conceding that it is possible given enough training or using the correct weapon. We’re making progress here…

Again, I’ve never said that it’s impossible. I’ve said that they would not be able to maintain accuracy while sprinting. Compare it to a marksman walking and firing at a target, and then another marksman running full-tilt at a target and trying to keep the same spread.

1437

> 2533274801176260;1427:
> The binoculars have a built-in gyroscope, able to project altitude and inclination onto the Spartan’s HUD. So do several of the weapons, such as Reach’s grenade launcher, which can bee seen on its reticule.

Given the electronic nature of those HUD elements, I would assume that’s a microelectromechanical system (MEMS gyroscope) being used to provide that. Not exactly what I’m talking about; think a vehicles shocks compared to (as given by you) their compass.

> I can’t believe I have to explain this kindergarden level of logic.

I can’t believe you’re being so abrasive and unnecessary for something that’s given clear indication. When I say what happened - clarified as the events - I’m not talking about the visuals of those events being carried out.

> In the same sense, a wall run would allow players to get to areas the were still able to reach before, but just with a more streamlined mechanic.

Requiring a wall alongside the need for a jump. Grenade jumping takes no small amount of skill; clambering is not redundant because it allows players without that skill - for better or worse - that reach. Jumping 50 feet requires the pressing of two buttons and forward movement. No real skill is involved, so explain how wall running would thus not be a redundant mechanic? Explain how it’s more streamlined, given the prerequisite wall?

> You do know that Titanfall lets you wallrun indefinitely, right?

First off, Titanfall is Titanfall, not Halo. Secondly, it does not, so far as I can find; wall running lasts 1.75 seconds, upped to 3.5 with an add-on kit.

1438

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Points 1 & 2 - Not really. You’re not any more mobile that Spartans already are, and with a standing jump of 16.5 feet, a standard jump distance of 33 feet, a sprinting distance of 37 feet, an augmented (thruster) jump distance of 49.5 feet (all playtested against 3 lined up Scorpion tanks - each 33 ft long {source}), a Spartan can already clear most jumps encountered. Again, that’s:
> Standing: 16.5 ft
> Running: 33 ft
> Sprinting: 37 ft
> Sprint + Thruster: 49.5 ft

This is fun. The maximal horizontal jumps I have tested are

  • running: 37 ft
  • crouch: 39 ft
  • clamber: 46 ft
  • sprint: 47 ft
  • thrust: 43 ft
  • sprint + crouch: 49 ft
  • sprint + clamber: 59 ft
  • sprint + thrust: 59 ft
  • sprint + thrust + crouch: 62 ft
  • sprint + thrust + clamber: 71 ft
  • sprint + thrust + gp + clamber: 79 ft
  • sprint + thrust + stabilize + gp + clamber: 80 ft
  • sprint + thrust + stabilize + gp + thrust + clamber: 100 ft
    Jumps in Halo 5 can get pretty long.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> To make wall running effective, relevant, and useful, gaps would need to be - generously - longer than 33 feet. With thrusters and sprinting taken into account, they would need to be longer than 50 feet. Which is utterly preposterous for someone to be running along side a wall. So you are neither more mobile nor would you have even longer reach than already possessed.

In the past when Spartan Abilities didn’t exist, the largest gaps that were frequently used were no more than 37 feet. Now, in Halo 5 the basic sprint–thrust combo can frequently be useful. If players can regularly cross 60 feet gaps, then 60 feet gaps can be the norm. If wall running was added to the mix, players would be able to cross gaps up to 90 feet at ease. It’s a bit short sighted to say that this wouldn’t be “effective, relevant, and useful” since there will always be gaps that are difficult or impossible with the existing movement mechanics, but would be easy or accessible with the addition of just one more movement mechanic. If you give your players a new movement mechanic, they will find ways to make it useful. Players in Halo 5 have done that with Ground Pound and Stabilizer: mechanics never intended for movement. Wall running is quite more powerful than that. It would certainly be effective, relevant, and highly useful.

You should not be concerned about whether wall running can be effective, relevant, and useful, because it would be. The real thing one should be concerned about when it comes to movement mechanics is how much freedom is too much freedom.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Third point (3), you would not be more elusive as a target. It would be about the same as sprint, and I imagine you would also lose the use of your weapon while wall running. This would, in fact, make you more of a target on an equal level as sprinting, however sprinting does have the benefit of raising your movement speed above the standard maximum. In contrast, mechanics like clamber take literally less than a second, offering no hindrance to players, or presenting them as a greater target than they would already be (for example, if you’re being attacked from behind, the result would be the same as though you had not gone to clamber.) So in regards for hypothetically presenting a player as less of a target, wall running would not do so any more effectively than other existing mobility means, and would actually present several downsides to a player’s vulnerability.

You’re assuming too much. No one but you has said that wall running would require the player lower their weapon, and I have reason to believe that the people you’re discussing with would be very much against that. How I personally envision wall running working is the player jumps diagonally towards the wall, runs along the wall for a short distance, keeping full control of aim and maintaining full accuracy, and then jumps diagonally off the wall. The whole wall run could easily be made to last less than a second (0.7 seconds at Halo 5 BMS would already make for 18 feet, which is well enough), making it a quick move that doesn’t last too long to be too predictable. In addition, the player could of course terminate the wall run at any moment, making it anything from a quick wall jump to running the full length. Furthermore, the player might even have a bit of control when it comes to the direction they jump off the wall.

There are many, many ways of implementing a wall run. Some of them are exactly as you think, but many of them aren’t.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Clambering takes literally less than a second. Sprint has you doing just that - sprinting - and does functionally increase your speed. Both are functional so neither are a “gimmick” or impractical, and neither are flashy.

Function wise, wall running can allow (depending on implementation): further jumps, higher jumps, dodging shots, jumps behind corners. Functionally, it’s far more versatile than Sprint and Clamber combined. If you think wall running is an “impractical, flashy gimmick”, then certainly, so are Sprint and Clamber.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> You asked a page back or so what would be unbalanced about sprinting and firing? Obviously that someone is being met with a faster moving target that is also able to damage them. If someone’s trying to get away, moving at a standard rate to allow their shields to recharge, having someone rapidly closing that gap to follow them into their cover, while also dealing damage to any recharging shields, is patently unbalanced. It allows for no retreat and recovery save for extreme distances between combatants. Having a person that can also rapidly close a distance while dealing damage to finish it off quickly with a melee is also an unbalanced situation, as it puts the aggressor at a significant advantage over an enemy on level ground. It would be as cheap at tactic as the “BXR” exploit that allowed players to rapidly melee twice, almost always instantly killing an opponent.

All of these issues don’t exists if we allow players move at maximum speed in all directions, and allowing shields to recharge while moving at maximum speed, which is of course what opponents of sprint are implying when they talk about shooting at maximum speed.

1439

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> You’re assuming a great deal, and this exact issue is touched upon further on in my post, as well as further down here where it’s more relevant.

Well I’ll take a look.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> It’s sure getting brought up a whole lot for a point that was admittedly wrong. See, generally, when someone in a discussion says “Oh, yeah, I was wrong. My bad” the topic moves on. Here, it’s being dragged in repeatedly in a “remember when you said…?” manner. It’s very vexing, I’m sure you can understand. So let’s let this be the last of it, eh?

Conceded or not, it’s part of history, something that can and is being used.
I can sure take it into consideration, but I can’t promise anything, because the point you made isn’t the relevant thing, it’s the transition from it to another which is important.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Well, maybe because I didn’t say it is the issue. I said it’s my issue, as in an issue with this notion of Spartans wall-running as a regular game mechanic. (Under full understanding that this is not, in any way shape or form a mechanic or inclusion up for addition to the Halo sandbox at this time.)

If I say “the issue”, I am refering to your issue with it.
Second, it is fully possible wall running in any way shape or form is up for addition to the Halo sandbox, unless of course you’re sitting on some insider information.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Points 1 & 2 - Not really. You’re not any more mobile that Spartans already are, and with a standing jump of 16.5 feet, a standard jump distance of 33 feet, a sprinting distance of 37 feet, an augmented (thruster) jump distance of 49.5 feet (all playtested against 3 lined up Scorpion tanks - each 33 ft long {source}), a Spartan can already clear most jumps encountered. Again, that’s:
> Standing: 16.5 ft
> Running: 33 ft
> Sprinting: 37 ft
> Sprint + Thruster: 49.5 ft
>
> To make wall running effective, relevant, and useful, gaps would need to be - generously - longer than 33 feet. With thrusters and sprinting taken into account, they would need to be longer than 50 feet. Which is utterly preposterous for someone to be running along side a wall. So you are neither more mobile nor would you have even longer reach than already possessed.

There are a few things here you’ve missed.
No one here has been asked how wall running would work, and you haven’t asked.
The thing you’ve done is taken how long of a gap a spartan can clear with the current available tools, and then decided an implemented wall run has to be able to clear all of that and some more.
Additionally, as you later down the post cut out, me telling you it’d be 10 feet, perhaps 20 feet, of wall running, and that’d be added onto the length of the gap you can clear as long as there’s a wall present to allow you to do so. Which there probably would be due to map design philosophies.

> 2533274804813082;1434:
> Third point (3), you would not be more elusive as a target. It would be about the same as sprint, and I imagine you would also lose the use of your weapon while wall running. This would, in fact, make you more of a target on an equal level as sprinting, however sprinting does have the benefit of raising your movement speed above the standard maximum. In contrast, mechanics like clamber take literally less than a second, offering no hindrance to players, or presenting them as a greater target than they would already be (for example, if you’re being attacked from behind, the result would be the same as though you had not gone to clamber.) So in regards for hypothetically presenting a player as less of a target, wall running would not do so any more effectively than other existing mobility means, and would actually present several downsides to a player’s vulnerability.

Now you’ve added another trait ontop of how you’ve decided wall running would work, removed combat capabilities. Without ever asking anyone how’d it work. Of course it’d make you more of a target then if we use your version that you’ve from the start been against, probably even before you’ve thought deeper into how it’d actually work.

Running on a wall for a brief period of time would be time you’re not on floor level, which would play in on player readiness for encounters.
Allowing players to cancel wall runs with wall jumps, thrusting and so forth, would add to players evasion capabilities somewhat.

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> Yes it is. By quite a bit. In that scene John jumps off the Brute’s knee to deliver a back flip kick. Wall running is using momentum and typically the grip of rubber soled shoes - as well as steadying oneself against the wall with a hand - to travel in a sloping forward arc alongside a vertical wall. I have also noted that it’s physically possible for Spartans to do this, as well as saying the closest we’ve gotten thus far is when Osiris was running vertically down the body of a Guardian. I haven’t said that it’s impossible.

I said Wall Jump.
The Brute staggers backwards curved spine around the shoulder blades, which is also the part of the brute going backwards first, and most, while the head bobs down and forward. Chief “jumped” off the Brute’s chest, that’s the kick presented to it. Pretty much how pushing kicks work.

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> If I can jump a maximum of 50 feet, and I’m a soldier fighting for my life and for others and presented with a moderate gap that - assumedly - I can clear with speed and ease by simply jumping

What are you going to do when the gap is 60 feet?

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> Clambering takes literally less than a second. Sprint has you doing just that - sprinting - and does functionally increase your speed. Both are functional so neither are a “gimmick” or impractical, and neither are flashy.

Tsassi covered this part better than I could have, even though I’d have tried to say the samish things.

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> You asked a page back or so what would be unbalanced about sprinting and firing? Obviously that someone is being met with a faster moving target that is also able to damage them. If someone’s trying to get away, moving at a standard rate to allow their shields to recharge, having someone rapidly closing that gap to follow them into their cover, while also dealing damage to any recharging shields, is patently unbalanced. It allows for no retreat and recovery save for extreme distances between combatants. Having a person that can also rapidly close a distance while dealing damage to finish it off quickly with a melee is also an unbalanced situation, as it puts the aggressor at a significant advantage over an enemy on level ground. It would be as cheap at tactic as the “BXR” exploit that allowed players to rapidly melee twice, almost always instantly killing an opponent.
>
> And in a similar regard, you don’t regain shields while sprinting because you’re already moving at an accelerated rate. You’re being given the opportunity to find cover quicker than someone moving normally, so being able to regain shields while moving out of range or behind cover would be overpowered. Removing shield recharge while sprinting balances the benefits and the drawbacks.

Why am I as a weakened player looking for an escape, not going to “sprint” away as well, to not allow the gap to close?
If I were to go check my Halo 3 medals, I’d find that I have a lot of beat downs? As that game allows me to move at top speed at all times while maintaining full accuracy ( outside of BR randomness ). Right?
I’d argue my melee kills are only a fraction of all the weapon kills.That is, not counting melee weapons in, even though those are quite low as well.

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> Then account for green blood. Blonde and youthful Halsey. Redhead Kelly. Evil bug-eyed Sangheili. You get a pass on Thel “'Lodamee” because that flubb-up was already retconned. If everything seen in Legends is canon-as-gospel, you don’t get to pick and choose "oh, well that’s clearly not canon, but this one instance of them sprinting like bada***s totally is".
> Visual canon would fall in line with what are the Spartan wearing; does the Mjolnir suit fit with the time and generation? Are the Spartans depicted biologically as they are described in the majority of existing canonical lore, or given ample example as to a change? Are the alien races depicted properly, following canonical biological structure? (e.g. Sangheili not having human-like mouths and noses) Do the weapons look true to canon, and behave as established? Etc. Etc.
> Even 343i can’t just write the Spartans doing anything, and we have to take it as canon. That’s precisely why Glasslands presents such a canonical issue if one instance is taken as 100% canonical truth; namely, Lucy - in armor - punching Halsey in the face so hard that it numbed her arm to the shoulder, and Halsey standing up with nothing but a bloody nose. Canonically, Halsey’s face would have been a pulp, even had Lucy punched her that hard without armor. What we can take from that instance as canonically true (even allowing for the uncharacteristic behavior of Halsey) is that Lucy attacked Halsey in some degree - which must be minor such as a shove. Why? Because canonically a Spartan can punch so hard it can stop a heart and shatter ribs and internal organs. John did this as a child, and didn’t so much as break a sweat. And he wasn’t in armor. Lucy was, and she punched Halsey so hard that, again, Lucy felt the impact up to her shoulder. That’s a damn hard punch. With a metal fist. To the face of a sixty-one year old woman, who lived to gripe about it. Canonically, that cannot be.

Canon are events, reactions to those and the results, in any order or chain. Right?
As such, sprinting spartans not able to fire, are not canon, neither are top speed / pin point accuracy spartans, as those are visuals accounts only for the events that transcribed during these events.

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> In a similar fashion, the visual events of animes like The Package are meant to wow the viewer. They’re primarily entertainment, and are presented as such. As evident with the general lack of concern for canon (green blood, Halsey, Spartan Lasers causing gigantic fiery explosions, etc). Taking a single segment of Spartans sprinting down a hallway firing automatic weapons from a short that already plays loosely with canonical representation and trying to apply that as evidence for Spartans’ ability to fire weapons with repeated precision (that italicized word is important here and where I’ve said it before), is not as strong an argument as could be made for it.

A fiery explosion from a Spartan laser is not that far from reality.
As long as the laser heats the material up fast enough, the vaporisation and sublimation, can cause a shockwave of sorts in the similar fashion of a bomb.

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> Were it so easy. It can just as well fall on human error, and misjudging the time in which one needs to jump to clear the gap.

So?

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> Be that as it may, if a combination of skillful jumping, thrusting, and clambering is what it takes to get to intentionally difficult to reach places (akin to grenade jumping in previous games), then that’s the method currently available to us. Assuming that both are made available, wall running would need to be more effective to retain any sort of usefulness.

I’d argue that going by your long distance wall run version would be more useful, and more simple, than to sprint jump thrust ground pound hover and so forth.
If we already have grenade jumping, and standing on others’ heads, then we wouldn’t need clamber.

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> Ledges in Halo: Combat Evolved, particularly where the Fog skull is located in Halo: CEA. Several areas of geometry in The Library. The little crook up one of the hillsides in Blood Gulch, gotten to through grenade jumps or Banshee drop-off. Unofficial sniper nests in Halo 2 that require super bounces or using vehicles. Play through and hop around; if there’s a ledge just high enough that you can’t get up there with a basic jump, there you go.

So, as I asked, why would these suddenly be made easily accessible to the player just because a new mechanic is added to the game?
Are these places going to be accessible or not?

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> Yes, it is absurd. But that was the going estimation for a Spartan’s maximum jump distance - not a number I just “threw out” and I’ve since playtested it up above at around 50 ft maximum in Halo 5 - so for wall running to maintain any semblance of usefulness, it would need to outperform that.

Because you’ve decided that a wall run has to be able to clear whatever a spartan can jump at their longest, on your own, without asking anyone, for it to be useful.
Then based on your own version, you’ve decided it’s not useful.

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> Well funner fact, it didn’t make it into the game, which makes this point irrelevant.

Actually it doesn’t, if thrusts can’t be used in your version of wall running, as we could just thrust the distance, in your own scenario.
Clamber follows the same principle.

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> 2533274804813082;1434:
> > Wall jumping even isn’t far off with this even.
>
> Yes it is. By quite a bit. In that scene John jumps off the Brute’s knee to deliver a back flip kick. Wall running is using momentum and typically the grip of rubber soled shoes - as well as steadying oneself against the wall with a hand - to travel in a sloping forward arc alongside a vertical wall. I have also noted that it’s physically possible for Spartans to do this, as well as saying the closest we’ve gotten thus far is when Osiris was running vertically down the body of a Guardian. I haven’t said that it’s impossible.
> Impractical flashy gimmick?

This wall running topic is tiring. If they want it in gameplay I’d have to live with it, but its nearly impossible for a Spartan WITH shields in lore. Here’s a quote from the Fall of Reach Book when John first activates the first set of Mjilnor with shields. “The Master Chief slipped off the platform. He skidded–then came to a halt. His Movements felt oiled. His contact with the floor felt tentative.”
So shields reduce friction/traction, a shielded Spartan has slippery boots the rubber is not touching the ground the shields are. So a wall run is too slippery, and wall jump may be possible for a slip second but a slide is totally canon.