The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
1382

> 2533274887581216;1381:
> Over-all I don’t see a problem with sprint being in Halo. It adds a new flow of gameplay, makes the game far more competitive, and the skill gap gets even further between good players, and bad players.

Can you explain how does sprint make the game more competitive? How does it expand the skill gap? Just claiming that it does is completely meaningless.

> 2533274887581216;1381:
> Things like Ground pound, and Spartan charge can be argued thick and thin as to whether or not they belong, but sprint? It makes the gameplay flow well, even with tiny small maps that are already available in Halo 5.

Without further qualifications, what counts as good gameplay flow is subjective. However, as has been discussed numerous times before, sprint forces the player into an animation in order to move at maximum speed, an animation which prevents them from participating in combat while in transit. This is exemplified well in this video. Now, you’re of course free to like this kind of movement if you so wish, but many people regard the more seamless interplay of movement and combat that classic movement provides as having a more superior flow precisely because of the seamlessness and the more fast paced action it enables.

> 2533274887581216;1381:
> As for things like the new zoom animations, again, people can dislike or like them. I quite like them, but is it ADS? No. Not at all. ADS is an entirely different mechanic altogether, it has nothing to deal with “looks/animations” either.

ADS is literally an acronym of “aim down sights”, which refers to aiming through a physical sight of the weapon. This is in contrast to having a virtual sight that is not connected to the weapon model in any way. When speaking about “ADS”, many people simply mean this animation, and not all the bells and whistles that may or may not come with it. This is just a matter of semantics, and while no one can stop you from supplying your own definitions, it’s useful to keep this often used definition in mind. In particular, when people discuss ADS in the context of Halo 5, it should clear that they mean it in this literal sense, since there are no significant mcehanical differences between the implementation of ADS and classic zoom.

1383

> 2533274825830455;121:
> Can you explain how does sprint make the game more competitive? How does it expand the skill gap? Just claiming that it does is completely meaningless.

I’ve actually already done this with you before in another comment section a few months ago. In the end, it just ended in a constant back and forth, I could probably even copy and paste my exact discussion to you with this and it’ll just end in the same effect.

> 2533274825830455;121:
> However, as has been discussed numerous times before, sprint forces the player into an animation in order to move at maximum speed, an animation which prevents them from participating in combat while in transit. This is exemplified well in this video.

Sprint forces the player to move at maximum speed in order to get to certain parts of the map at a faster rate. All the video did was argue why clamber is “pointless” because it makes the maps larger in size so clamber can actually be used…? I again, don’t see the point of this at all other then the fact that with clamber, you’re actually able to make even more skilled jumps throughout certain parts of the map, combined with the thrusters. The video you showed, clearly didn’t point out the many skill jumps which also exist in Halo 5…Only possible with the usage of Clamber, and Thrusters. Plaza isn’t the only map that contains tons of these jumps either.

> 2533274825830455;121:
> combat that classic movement provides as having a more superior flow precisely because of the seamlessness and the more fast paced action it enables.

Sounds like a opinion to me, superior flow? Not exactly. Seamless? Subjective at best. More fast paced? Definitely not.

Especially when comparing the SWAT matches, in Halo 5 you’ll be lucky to be in a SWAT match last longer then 3-6 minutes with skilled players playing. In my personal experience, I’ve had SWAT games as low as 4 minutes over-all. In Halo 1-4, I’ve never seen games last that short at all. After all, when you say “fast paced” you likely mean SWAT, as that’s the fastest you can get in any Halo game to date. Besides the Breakout game mode in H5, which comes in at a close 2nd for competitive users.

> 2533274825830455;121:
> When speaking about “ADS”, many people simply mean this animation, and not all the bells and whistles that may or may not come with it

I don’t know who, or what people you speak to who exclusively speak about “the animation” as all I’ve heard so far when people complain about Halo 5’s new zoom mechanic, is how it’s ADS with no second though on it just being a animation. You immediately find people comparing it to COD, which COD’s ADS mechanic is 100% different altogether.

1384

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> Sprint forces the player to move at maximum speed in order to get to certain parts of the map at a faster rate.

How is this any better than before when you were always using your maximum speed to get to a certain part of the map, except now you lost the ability to shoot and face other directions in the process?

If I just made your regular movement speed as fast as Halo 5’s Sprint speed (which is really about a 20% difference), where the benefit for Sprint?

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> All the video did was argue why clamber is “pointless” because it makes the maps larger in size so clamber can actually be used…? I again, don’t see the point of this at all other then the fact that with clamber, you’re actually able to make even more skilled jumps throughout certain parts of the map, combined with the thrusters.

I don’t think you actually watched the video, because the first 30 seconds had nothing to do with Clamber.

It also didn’t call Clamber pointless, it called the animation pointless. The video also said nothing about an increase or decrease in skill jumps. If you were capable of making a certain jump without Clamber, would you ever use Clamber on it?

Ledges aren’t higher so Clamber can be used, it was so Clamber has a purpose to be used in the first place. If ledges were lower, you’d rarely use it and you’d just have a fluff mechanic.

I mean you said it yourself: "Only possible through the usage of Clamber." You literally agreed with the video.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> I don’t know who, or what people you speak to who exclusively speak about “the animation” as all I’ve heard so far when people complain about Halo 5’s new zoom mechanic, is how it’s ADS with no second though on it just being a animation. You immediately find people comparing it to COD, which COD’s ADS mechanic is 100% different altogether.

Because for a time, Halo 5’s "Smart-Scope gave a legitimate accuracy bonus to weapons, especially to automatic weapons. I don’t see how it isn’t like traditional ADS at that point. I guess you can say that you don’t flinch when you get shot at like Call of Duty, but that’s a different mechanic altogether - Halo 4 had flinch but no ADS.

in the event that it doesn’t have accuracy bonuses, then it was an unnecessary change for the sake of change, or dare I say “more like Call of Duty.” In terms of gameplay, now you just have a weapon that blocks a portion of your screen. In terms of lore, it’s already established that Spartans don’t have to traditionally aim down the sights in order to be accurate.

The only good thing I got out of “ADS” is the fact that it’s not always a toggle and it’s now mapped to the LT button, but Halo 4 almost got both of those perfected anyway.

1385

> 2533274887581216;1381:
> Over-all I don’t see a problem with sprint being in Halo. It adds a new flow of gameplay, makes the game far more competitive, and the skill gap gets even further between good players, and bad players.
>
> Things like Ground pound, and Spartan charge can be argued thick and thin as to whether or not they belong, but sprint? It makes the gameplay flow well, even with tiny small maps that are already available in Halo 5. Take the Breakout game mode for example, it has everything in it already, and I don’t see anyone complaining about “muh sprint” in that section at all, especially considering Breakout has the smallest maps out of any game mode in Halo 5 altogether. Some of the maps are even smaller then the smallest maps ever made in all the other Halo games as well.
>
> As for things like the new zoom animations, again, people can dislike or like them. I quite like them, but is it ADS? No. Not at all. ADS is an entirely different mechanic altogether, it has nothing to deal with “looks/animations” either.

Just read my last comment on this.

1386

I would only like sprint to remain. I don’t see why others are so much against this because there are so many popular FPS game that use this method and in the forums of these games its never an issue.

1387

Halo shouldn’t go back to its old roots of slow pace gameplay. I feel halo is where it should be some some spartan abilities should be taken out spartan charge. The new abilites give an entire new skill gap you can tell because certain players won’t know how to perform said moves because they haven’t put the time in to learn them

1388

> 2533274882470955;1386:
> I would only like sprint to remain. I don’t see why others are so much against this because there are so many popular FPS game that use this method and in the forums of these games its never an issue.

It’s an issue because the concept of “run and gun” was etched into Halo’s core gameplay for 9 years until sprint was introduced in Reach.

1389

> 2535447612273772;1387:
> The new abilites give an entire new skill gap you can tell because certain players won’t know how to perform said moves because they haven’t put the time in to learn them

You mean pressing a button or two? Wow, we’ll call anything a skill gap these days.

1390

> 2533274882470955;1386:
> I would only like sprint to remain. I don’t see why others are so much against this because there are so many popular FPS game that use this method and in the forums of these games its never an issus
>
>
> > 2533274882470955;1386:
> > I would only like sprint to remain. I don’t see why others are so much against this because there are so many popular FPS game that use this method and in the forums of these games its never an issues.

Sprint works in othe games but that doesn’t mean that it therefore must be in all games. If you think all shooters need mechanical standards within the context of shooting then thank God you’re not in control of that.
And yes this is an issue look at other forums involving sprint and you’ll see its a real debate. The reason why you don’t see it all the time is because this forum is still currently used for the majority of those debates.
Please know what your talking about before talking.

1391

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> > 2533274825830455;121:
> > Can you explain how does sprint make the game more competitive? How does it expand the skill gap? Just claiming that it does is completely meaningless.
>
> I’ve actually already done this with you before in another comment section a few months ago. In the end, it just ended in a constant back and forth, I could probably even copy and paste my exact discussion to you with this and it’ll just end in the same effect.

Still, just claiming things without explaining why is meaningless.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> All the video did was argue why clamber is “pointless” because it makes the maps larger in size so clamber can actually be used…?

Did you watch the first thirty second of the video? Did you listen to what was being said? Because the first thirty seconds of the video showed how sprint doesn’t actually get you anywhere faster (due to the increase in map sizes), but it does force you into an animation for the whole time, in contrast to classic movement where you can be shooting and throwing grenades the whole time.

As for Clamber, did you pay attention to how in Halo 5 Clamber prevented the player from shooting while moving up the ledges, whereas in Halo 2 the player was able to shoot the whole time while jumping up? The point was that Clamber only hinders the player’s ability to use map geometry as part of combat, and forces the player to use Clamber by making ledges too high to be jumped on without it.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> I again, don’t see the point of this at all other then the fact that with clamber, you’re actually able to make even more skilled jumps throughout certain parts of the map, combined with the thrusters. The video you showed, clearly didn’t point out the many skill jumps which also exist in Halo 5…Only possible with the usage of Clamber, and Thrusters. Plaza isn’t the only map that contains tons of these jumps either.

Halo 5 has skill jumps not due to Clamber, but in spite of it. Despite the fact that Clamber is required for the jump, it actually doesn’t contribute any skill to the jump. It just changes the scale of what are considered “skill jumps”. Smalller jumps that would be skill jumps if Clamber wasn’t in the game are made easy with Clamber. If there was no Clamber in the game, there would not be less skill jumps, the skill jumps would just be different. Clamber is completely inconsequential to the existence of skilll jumps, that’s why skill jumps weren’t mentioned in the video: it wasn’t relevant.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> Sounds like a opinion to me, superior flow? Not exactly. Seamless? Subjective at best.

Did you miss the sentence I started the paragraph with: “Without further qualifications, what counts as good gameplay flow is subjective”?

With that said, I can’t fathom how anyone could not see classic movement as more seamless. What is seamless if not being able to participate in combat all the time, no matter how you’re moving. In Halo 5, transitions between the state of being able to shoot, and the state of not being able to shoot are by definition, two very discontinuous states of play, is by definition not so seamless.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> More fast paced? Definitely not.

See this post I made. If measured in terms of how fast kills happen in Slayer (which with given kill limit and player count corresponds to how long matches last), Halo 5 is consistently slower than Halo CE and MLG Halo 3, and I’m sure the same would be true for Halo 2 (I might check that at some point). The reality is that Spartan Abilities don’t make the game faster paced. They make the player faster in terms of distance covered per second, but as is well known, this is compensated for by increase in map size. Therefore the average time between encounters in Halo 5 is not actually any shorter, leading to at best similarly paced, though often slower, gameplay.

> 2533274887581216;1383:
> Especially when comparing the SWAT matches, in Halo 5 you’ll be lucky to be in a SWAT match last longer then 3-6 minutes with skilled players playing. In my personal experience, I’ve had SWAT games as low as 4 minutes over-all. In Halo 1-4, I’ve never seen games last that short at all. After all, when you say “fast paced” you likely mean SWAT, as that’s the fastest you can get in any Halo game to date.

No, I don’t mean SWAT, because SWAT is not reflective of standard Halo gameplay.

1392

> 2533274889489936;2:
> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?

No because your argument that we are walking slowly is bogus considering that halo 2 and 3 base movement speed is infact the same speed as halo 4 and 5 sprint speed so please explain to me why sprint is beneficial when it’s actually detrimental cause ya know dropping your weapon just to move faster you know why not just increase the base movement speed or simply add a speed boost but no you want a cod styled sprint mechanic.

1393

Holy run on sentence, Batman…

Look. The BMS of Halo 5 being slower or whatnot than Halo 2 is a complete non-issue. They’re different games, with different playspaces, and the playspace in Halo 5 works for it’s mechanics. You’re comparing apples to pears.

1394

> 2533274804813082;37:
> > 2535409333290868;35:
> > Go play arma then. Halo is supposed to be a run and gun arcade style shooter not a tactical shooter.
>
> I’d rather play Halo. A franchise which has been so many things that it’s ridiculous and limiting to say that it’s “supposed to be” anything.
>
>
>
>
> > The population has bottomed out since they changed to this odd quasi tactical COD in space gameplay. They tried it twice. It failed twice. Time to move on.
>
> Twice? I think you forgot Reach. Neither has it “failed” twice, as the population has done nothing near “bottoming out.” Stop over-dramatizing things just because you want to stick to the past. It’s still there to play, and is even quite accessable (soon more so) on the Master Chief Collection. You know, while we’re throwing out the dismissive “go play [insert game here]” line.

Reach didn’t have sprint as a base mechanic but rather a pick up can’t be compared at all and btw reach also caught a bit of flak hell even bungie said that that was a mistake

1395

> 2535407747275549;1394:
> Reach didn’t have sprint as a base mechanic but rather a pick up can’t be compared at all

It still has sprint. The maps still compensated for that ability, and allowed for it.

> bungie said that that was a mistake

I’m well aware of the “flak” that Reach caught, but for this you’ll need a quote. If they thought it so much a mistake, I don’t see why they’d add it as a core mechanic to Destiny.

1396

> 2535407747275549;1392:
> > 2533274889489936;2:
> > As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?
>
> No because your argument that we are walking slowly is bogus considering that halo 2 and 3 base movement speed is infact the same speed as halo 4 and 5 sprint speed so please explain to me why sprint is beneficial when it’s actually detrimental cause ya know dropping your weapon just to move faster you know why not just increase the base movement speed or simply add a speed boost but no you want a cod styled sprint mechanic.

No they are not.

Halo CE, 2 and 3 all share the same BMS
Reach’s BMS was slightly lowered
I don’t recall if Halo 4’s BMS was increased from Reach, but it is still in the 3 and Reach area.
Halo 5’s BMS was increased after the beta and is currently the Halo game with the highest default BMS.
Reach, 4 and 5’s sprint speed is in raw speed, faster than previous Halo’s BMS.

> 2533274804813082;1379:
> As mentioned above, I don’t think that wall running is implausible because it’s impossible, but that it’s impractical for a Spartan to utilize when they have far more effective methods of covering distance at their disposal.

Why would it be impractical? And compared to what? Which more effective methods?

It’s impractical to wall run for a spartan and thus the mechanic should not be implemented. But it is practical for a spartan to lower their weapon and move somewhat faster? Especially when we have accounts of them moving fast and firing accurately, and even if we dismiss that, i343 have the full capability of writing them as moving at their pain treshold and firing with pinpoint accuracy.

1397

> 2533274804813082;1395:
> If they thought it so much a mistake, I don’t see why they’d add it as a core mechanic to Destiny.

Because Destiny is a completely different game and even franchise, one that doesn’t necessarily have to play like Halo, even remotely?
That’s like saying that Doom and Quake and Wolfenstein and Rage should play identical just because they’re all made by id Software.
That being said, I haven’t seen this alleged quote by Bungie myself so far…

1398

> 2533274795123910;1396:
> Halo CE, 2 and 3 all share the same BMS
> Reach’s BMS was slightly lowered
> I don’t recall if Halo 4’s BMS was increased from Reach, but it is still in the 3 and Reach area.
> Halo 5’s BMS was increased after the beta and is currently the Halo game with the highest default BMS.
> Reach, 4 and 5’s sprint speed is in raw speed, faster than previous Halo’s BMS.

It wasn’t. Halo 4 was even slower than Reach.

> HALO CE:
> 7m/s
>
> HALO 2:
> 7m/s
>
> HALO 2 ANNIVERSARY:
> 7.6m/s.
>
> HALO 3:
> 7m/s.
>
> ODST:
> 5.5m/s
>
> REACH:
> 6.85m/s (Base)
> 10.75m/s (Sprint)
>
> HALO 4:
> 6.6m/s (Base).
> 10.75m/s (Sprint)
>
> H5G:
> 8.3m/s (Base).
> 10.75m/s (Sprint)

1399

> 2533274801176260;1398:
> > 2533274795123910;1396:
> > Halo CE, 2 and 3 all share the same BMS
> > Reach’s BMS was slightly lowered
> > I don’t recall if Halo 4’s BMS was increased from Reach, but it is still in the 3 and Reach area.
> > Halo 5’s BMS was increased after the beta and is currently the Halo game with the highest default BMS.
> > Reach, 4 and 5’s sprint speed is in raw speed, faster than previous Halo’s BMS.
>
> It wasn’t. Halo 4 was even slower than Reach.
>
>
>
>
> > HALO CE:
> > 7m/s
> >
> > HALO 2:
> > 7m/s
> >
> > HALO 2 ANNIVERSARY:
> > 7.6m/s.
> >
> > HALO 3:
> > 7m/s.
> >
> > ODST:
> > 5.5m/s
> >
> > REACH:
> > 6.85m/s (Base)
> > 10.75m/s (Sprint)
> >
> > HALO 4:
> > 6.6m/s (Base).
> > 10.75m/s (Sprint)
> >
> > H5G:
> > 8.3m/s (Base).
> > 10.75m/s (Sprint)

No, Halo 4 has the exact same movement speed as Reach: 2.20 units per second. Your discrepancy either comes from measurement errors, or at the unit conversion stage when you translate between the length of your line of Warthogs and their canonical sizes.

1400

> 2533274825830455;1399:
> No, Halo 4 has the exact same movement speed as Reach: 2.20 units per second. Your discrepancy either comes from measurement errors, or at the unit conversion stage when you translate between the length of your line of Warthogs and their canonical sizes.

No, that absolutely can’t be. If that were the case, my measurement for the sprint speed would have been off by the same amount (percentage). However, I get the same sprint speed across all three games.
While the units might be hypothetically wrong (which I still disagree on), I can absolutely vouch for BMS in Halo 4 being lower than in Reach compared to their respecitve sprint speeds. That’s a fact and can be easily verified by dividing movement times of sprint and BMS for any fixed distance (so even if my Warthog length rulers were wrong, they’re completely independent of this measurement). I’ve also repeated this measurement multiple times (and also the last time you doubted me, in July 2015), both in Halo 4 on the 360 as well as the MCC and always came to the same result. The ratio of v_BMS/v_Sprint is de facto lower in 4 than in Reach. This discrepancy could only be resolved if either Reach or 4 had a different sprint speed, which as far as I’m aware, they don’t.
Also, do you have a screenshot of Halo 4’s 2.20 WU/s? So far I’ve only ever seen ones from Halo 3 and Reach.

1401

> 2533274801176260;1400:
> > 2533274825830455;1399:
> > No, Halo 4 has the exact same movement speed as Reach: 2.20 units per second. Your discrepancy either comes from measurement errors, or at the unit conversion stage when you translate between the length of your line of Warthogs and their canonical sizes.
>
> No, that absolutely can’t be. If that were the case, my measurement for the sprint speed would have been off by the same amount (percentage). However, I get the same sprint speed across all three games.
> While the units might be hypothetically wrong (which I still disagree on), I can absolutely vouch for BMS in Halo 4 being lower than in Reach compared to their respecitve sprint speeds. That’s a fact and can be easily verified by dividing movement times of sprint and BMS for any fixed distance (so even if my Warthog length rulers were wrong, they’re completely independent of this measurement). I’ve also repeated this measurement multiple times (and also the last time you doubted me, in July 2015), both in Halo 4 on the 360 as well as the MCC and always came to the same result. The ratio of v_BMS/v_Sprint is de facto lower in 4 than in Reach. This discrepancy could only be resolved if either Reach or 4 had a different sprint speed, which as far as I’m aware, they don’t.
> Also, do you have a screenshot of Halo 4’s 2.20 WU/s? So far I’ve only ever seen ones from Halo 3 and Reach.

If I’m not mistaken, it could be possible to.measure distances in Halo Reach and Halo 4 using territory / koth markers instead of warthogs. As you can make the areas in any length you wish, and I believe that the numbers represent the Units used in the engine.
Worth a shot?