The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> > > > . I don’t think Sprint affects game intensity either way, it’s simply something more and more modern games have. Halo is unique enough in many other ways that it doesn’t need to give up sprinting to be successful. Things need to adapt to survive. We live in a society with rapidly developing technology.
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> > > In the same vein, Halo is unique enough to where it doesn’t need Sprint to be successful.
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> > > I mean you just said that Sprint isn’t unique, since more and more modern games have them. So why are we suddenly “compromising” uniqueness in Sprint when you don’t have to?
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> > > You also just admitted that Sprint doesn’t affect the game kuch, good or bad. But you also say that Sprint has to stay, with all the nothing it’s doing, to remain successful. Is Sprint just there to look pretty and nothing else?
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> > A lot to counter here so I’ll break it down by paragraph. This is a little out of order but I feel it is important to say first that you are misquoting me here. I did not, “admit sprint doesn’t effect the game much, good or bad.” I specifically said it did not affect game INTENSITY much. (Or sweatyness for that matter). (Also I am not sure why you said “Compromising” like that, because you are not quoting me here either as I never used that word in this post…) Anyway…
> >
> > Secondly, Let’s talk about how technology is affecting (and will continue to affect) newer generations of players. They are impatient, they are always wanting something to keep their attention held, millennials and future generations will grow up with high speed internet, tablets, computers, laptops, phones, and gaming consoles, and I believe this to be a factor in what keeps the newer generations wanting more. I fear that Halo could lose favor with some generations if it has what they perceive as “slow”, “boring”, or “monotonous” movement speed. They are, afterall, the future of Halo. If they don’t like Halo because it fails to hold their attention then they will stop buying the games and therefore eventually this will hurt the franchise. I am not saying everyone is going to ‘Sprint’ :wink: over to CoD or Destiny because of this but it could definitely be a determining factor for some.
> > Another reason Sprint should be incorporated is because it gives new halo players the ability to stay out of the fire of more experienced players. This is a little tricky to word but lets say for example; you have played Halo (Whether it’s 3, 4, or 5 doesn’t matter ) since it’s release. You know all the best spots to snipe, where all the good vehicles are, and you probably a perfect technique built off your favorite loadout, and because of this, you’re always in the top ten on your team. Okay? Now let’s say I just bought the game and I’ve been playing for like 3 days. You and I are on opposing teams. You’ve decided I’m an easy target and you decided to be “that guy”. You’re looking for new players like me to beat on. If I can sprint, I have the ability to get away and avoid you because you can’t sprint and shoot at the same time. I will know I’m outmatched and I can make an effort not to get in your way. It’s no fun being the person at the bottom. If experienced players are always wanting to gun you down constantly and you don’t really get to play the game and get better, then you’re more inclined to play something else.
> > So to directly answer your question, Vegeto30294, Sprint is not just there to “look pretty”, It’s not a tool of destruction that’s going to end the game we all love. It’s an element of movement that is becoming more popular with younger crowds and becoming a norm in many modern games.
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> Overwatch is one of the biggest FPS shooters right now in everyway (sales, popularity, e-sports, being the “it” game, etc) and it doesn’t have sprint (save one character) and that game is pretty popular with the “younger crowds” I’m not saying that the reason it’s popular is because it has no sprint, I’m merely pointing out here is a FPS that doesn’t have sprint and it’s widely accepted by the younger generation. I play Overwatch and never once have i heard someone say they wish they could sprint. They could care less that it’s not in. Sprint isn’t needed for a game to be successful or popular. If a game is fun people of any age will be playing it regardless if that game has the sprint animation in it or not.

THIS. I can recall some of the vidocs that were on XBL that interviewed Bungie devs. They touched on many different ideas and concepts that were cornerstones of creating Halo and one of those concepts was that they wanted to make the game so much fun that even if you were killed, you likely wouldn’t get upset or frustrated all that much because you were having too much fun to dwell on it.

Of all the concepts that were inherent to earlier Halo games, I think that is the one that got trampled on the hardest with H5. The game is surrounded by words like ‘sweaty’, ‘competitive’ and phrases like ‘geared towards e-sports’. Not that Halo (or any game) doesn’t have both ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ players, but H5 seems to have driven a wedge between the two like few other games I can recall.

If fun is not the determining factor for any individual to be playing a given game, then I question why that person plays games to begin with. Fun is (and should be IMO) the top deciding factor for playing any game. People will be willing to overlook quite a few shortcomings of a game if the game is fun to play. Anything from fairness [to a limited degree] to specific mechanics, to graphics and plenty of other factors can and will take a back seat to the fun factor. A game can have every single mechanic, game type, etc. etc. that an individual could possibly want… but that individual won’t bother if it’s not fun to play. Fun absolutely does not require any one specific mechanic and it certainly knows no age limitations.

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Personally I’d prefer 343 halo 5 hcs setting please bring back thrust 343 but please for the love of god take out spartan charge. Also Please don’t bring classic machanics back the game will be boring imo

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I never really favored one over the other.

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> > > > Things need to adapt to survive. We live in a society with rapidly developing technology.
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> > > Implying that sprint has anything to do with technological development. It doesn’t. GTA 3 had a sprint animation in 2001. CoD: United Offensive had a sprint animation in 2004. Halo 2 had a full sprint animation that never made into the final game in 2004. CoD 4 popularized sprint in 2007. The tools to implement a believable sprint animation were there years before sprint became a trendy mechanic. If sprint had anything to do with technological development, we would’ve seen it take over the industry almost two decades ago.
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> > Super Mario Bros. had sprint in the 80’s.
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> I personally don’t regard speed boosts that increase the player speed without drawbacks as “sprint”, so I was specifically looking at games that implement a running animation, in which case GTA 3 is the earliest one I could find. Of course, it should be obvious to anyone that there has never been any technical limitation on giving the player multiple different movement speeds.

I’m kinda liking this Mario running concept. We had to hold the B button down to run (sprint), then. Now in modern games its a toggle to start it then your off to the races. What if they changed it where to sprint you had to hold the button to keep it active, just like hold to crouch. They would add to the intensity of the game slightly with out changing the mechanics. It would take a little more skill and concentration to maintain. Like hold to crouch vs toggle to crouch.
Maybe have it both and people hold to sprint can reload on the run vs those that toggle to reward the better player the same way hold to crouch give players extra wiggling while jumping to throw off someones aim can? I don’t know of any games that have done this.

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> > > > > Things need to adapt to survive. We live in a society with rapidly developing technology.
> > > >
> > > > Implying that sprint has anything to do with technological development. It doesn’t. GTA 3 had a sprint animation in 2001. CoD: United Offensive had a sprint animation in 2004. Halo 2 had a full sprint animation that never made into the final game in 2004. CoD 4 popularized sprint in 2007. The tools to implement a believable sprint animation were there years before sprint became a trendy mechanic. If sprint had anything to do with technological development, we would’ve seen it take over the industry almost two decades ago.
> > >
> > > Super Mario Bros. had sprint in the 80’s.
> >
> > I personally don’t regard speed boosts that increase the player speed without drawbacks as “sprint”, so I was specifically looking at games that implement a running animation, in which case GTA 3 is the earliest one I could find. Of course, it should be obvious to anyone that there has never been any technical limitation on giving the player multiple different movement speeds.
>
> I’m kinda liking this Mario running concept. We had to hold the B button down to run (sprint), then. Now in modern games its a toggle to start it then your off to the races. What if they changed it where to sprint you had to hold the button to keep it active, just like hold to crouch. They would add to the intensity of the game slightly with out changing the mechanics. It would take a little more skill and concentration to maintain. Like hold to crouch vs toggle to crouch.
> Maybe have it both and people hold to sprint can reload on the run vs those that toggle to reward the better player the same way hold to crouch give players extra wiggling while jumping to throw off someones aim can? I don’t know of any games that have done this.

Am I understanding this properly?
Toggling this version of sprint would disable reloading while sprinting?

The only thing I find comfortable holding in / held pressed are the triggers.
Holding a thumbstick while moving forward is both unfomfortable and awkward, and I imagine it wears on the thumbstick a lot seeing as constant pressure is applied to it as it is pushed in every direction. I really doubt the thumbsticks are designed anything but clicks, and preferably when the stick is in default position.

Also, this is a horrible comparison, but I think it’d be equal to increasing player movement speed if the player lowers their FoV.
I don’t like the idea of options directly interfering with player mechanics in such a way where it’d disable / enable different features the player use. Options are there to allow the player altering the input, sound, video and whatever to their preference, to their own comfort.

Oh, intensity is a new word for me in this discussion. That’d translate into actions per minute? Or?

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> I’m kinda liking this Mario running concept. We had to hold the B button down to run (sprint), then. Now in modern games its a toggle to start it then your off to the races. What if they changed it where to sprint you had to hold the button to keep it active, just like hold to crouch. They would add to the intensity of the game slightly with out changing the mechanics. It would take a little more skill and concentration to maintain. Like hold to crouch vs toggle to crouch.
> Maybe have it both and people hold to sprint can reload on the run vs those that toggle to reward the better player the same way hold to crouch give players extra wiggling while jumping to throw off someones aim can? I don’t know of any games that have done this.

That sounds a lot like making sprinting one thing it has never been this far: a chore. That’s probably the reason we’ve seen no game do this, it’s not a fun experience for the player. Generally speaking, holding down buttons for extended periods is straining. The same actually applies to crouching, but there it’s often necessary that the player should be able to rise up quickly, so hold works better than toggle. For sprint, flicking the stick stops the player, which is fast enough, so there is no point for hold.

However, the most fundamental problem with this suggestion are control schemes. I use Bumper Jumper, a lot of people use Bumper Jumper. We sprint with X, which means that holding would either make us unable to aim, or would force us to use the claw method. Both are extremely undesirable.

When it comes to your suggestions that control options would affect gameplay mechanics: absolutely not. The purpose of options is to allow the player to set up the game to their liking. Options should not have built in artificial advantages and disadvantages. Different options of course have natural advantages and disadvantages, but that’s unavoidable.

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> Your valuation of no-sprint/having the weapon up all the time as beeing “preposterous” from a lore perspective is based on nothing but your own personal feelings and cherrypicking whatever sources support your stance while ignoring sources that support “ours”.

What are you on about? I said that it is preposterous for there to be lore arguments against Spartans sprinting. It doesn’t matter if there’s lore examples of them sprinting and shooting (not running and gunning, mind you,) that is a function of gameplay balance. We’ve also got lore examples of Spartans palming away missiles; should we get a “Press X to Snuff It” when a rocket is launched our way? Plasma Pistols are described as severely damaging armor and personnel; should it become the new Halo: CE Magnum?

> Again, you make it sound like it the one and only truth but it based upon your feelings.

Except I’m very clearly stating my opinions. But please, rather than try to spin it as me “preaching the one and only truth,” maybe give some example as to how Parkour and high-powered guns would work - within the scope and frame of the Halo Universe - in a game centered around First-Person Shooting.

> cough what about the didacts space magic/force choking -Yoink-? cough

It’s lazy to call it “space magic” when it’s established in the lore that Forerunners are highly advanced to the point of building planets, creating species, and even bending time. Slipspace is a simple matter for them, and they manipulate it with ease and frequency. In scenes where the Didact lifts the Chief, you can very clearly see distortion in the air between them of the same sort that surrounds the Didact’s Cryptum, as well as Chief’s armor locking in response. From that, you can quite simply deduce that it is either some manner of electromagnetic tethering, or even acute slipspace anchoring (akin to what anchored the Infinity to Requiem). “Tractor Beams” are a common theme in Sci-Fi, as well as magnetic anchoring. I’m talking magic like chanting and summoning a demon or some -Yoink!-.

> Spartans are already fighting giant chrom ladybugs

Armatures that are really no different than the Sentinels from Halo: CE, or Sentinel Enforcers from Halo 2. Rather than deflecting, do explain how demonic entities slithered from some realm of Hell would be an “upgrade” or even plausible within the scope of the Halo Universe.

> What sprint does is it gives you the illusion of “speed”,

No, it does not. You do move at an accelerated rate. Comparing it to “other games” is irrelevant, as there is a marked difference in speeds within Halo 4 and 5’s movement rates.

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> Doesn’t matter. Either we renounce all laws of physics, or we accept that this imaginary chemical compound isn’t suddenly going to be thrirty times more effective than a standard rocket fuel.

I think it does, honestly. Triamino hydrazine is used in the T-Packs, which were used in Zero-G atmospheres. By 2552 (at the latest), the UNSC had developed jetpacks powerful enough to lift Spartans in full half-ton armor for short but substantial periods of time (as seen in Halo Reach). This is noted as being more powerful than previous models (per the Halo Reach game manual). It’s not told if it’s more stable than T-Packs, but given that we don’t have examples of instability, it can be reasonably assumed to be so.

By 2557 jetpacks had been advanced to Series 12, which augmented thruster packs integrated into Mjolnir [Gen2] suits. it provided lift, whereas the integrated thruster packs provided stability and brief maneuvering. We even see this being the case; in Halo 5 you can’t thruster pack up, and any suspension from the thrusters is very brief. It’s also important to note, I believe, that it’s unknown what fuel type is being used for these thrusters, or even the Series 12 jetpack. At that point in time, the UNSC is dabbling with Forerunner technology integration, and I don’t think they’d be still using a 26 year old fuel source.

Lastly I don’t think the laws of physics are being renounced, or even stretched that far. The worst “culprit” is an infinitely replenishing fuel source. A Spartan still isn’t able to zip around the battle field in the air, thrusters only really provide brief pushes in given areas, augment forward movement, and provide very brief stability in air. And even when you’re “hovering,” you’re still moving forward and down; gravity still has effect.

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I don’t understand those who say that if halo infinite returns to classic gameplay, it will be slow. Go watch halo 3 when it was played on the pro circuit. Gameplay was was very fast paced. Didn’t need sprint or spartan charge.

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> > I’m kinda liking this Mario running concept. We had to hold the B button down to run (sprint), then. Now in modern games its a toggle to start it then your off to the races. What if they changed it where to sprint you had to hold the button to keep it active, just like hold to crouch. They would add to the intensity of the game slightly with out changing the mechanics. It would take a little more skill and concentration to maintain. Like hold to crouch vs toggle to crouch.
> > Maybe have it both and people hold to sprint can reload on the run vs those that toggle to reward the better player the same way hold to crouch give players extra wiggling while jumping to throw off someones aim can? I don’t know of any games that have done this.
>
> That sounds a lot like making sprinting one thing it has never been this far: a chore. That’s probably the reason we’ve seen no game do this, it’s not a fun experience for the player. Generally speaking, holding down buttons for extended periods is straining. The same actually applies to crouching, but there it’s often necessary that the player should be able to rise up quickly, so hold works better than toggle. For sprint, flicking the stick stops the player, which is fast enough, so there is no point for hold.
>
> However, the most fundamental problem with this suggestion are control schemes. I use Bumper Jumper, a lot of people use Bumper Jumper. We sprint with X, which means that holding would either make us unable to aim, or would force us to use the claw method. Both are extremely undesirable.
>
> When it comes to your suggestions that control options would affect gameplay mechanics: absolutely not. The purpose of options is to allow the player to set up the game to their liking. Options should not have built in artificial advantages and disadvantages. Different options of course have natural advantages and disadvantages, but that’s unavoidable.

I play with a modified version of Default with the Xbox Accessories App. I now it would take some adjustment but I’d still like to see it in the custom traits option for custom game, or something we can set in controller settings.

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> > > . I don’t think Sprint affects game intensity either way, it’s simply something more and more modern games have. Halo is unique enough in many other ways that it doesn’t need to give up sprinting to be successful. Things need to adapt to survive. We live in a society with rapidly developing technology.
> >
> > In the same vein, Halo is unique enough to where it doesn’t need Sprint to be successful.
> >
> > I mean you just said that Sprint isn’t unique, since more and more modern games have them. So why are we suddenly “compromising” uniqueness in Sprint when you don’t have to?
> >
> > You also just admitted that Sprint doesn’t affect the game kuch, good or bad. But you also say that Sprint has to stay, with all the nothing it’s doing, to remain successful. Is Sprint just there to look pretty and nothing else?
>
> A lot to counter here so I’ll break it down by paragraph. This is a little out of order but I feel it is important to say first that you are misquoting me here. I did not, “admit sprint doesn’t effect the game much, good or bad.” I specifically said it did not affect game INTENSITY much. (Or sweatyness for that matter). (Also I am not sure why you said “Compromising” like that, because you are not quoting me here either as I never used that word in this post…) Anyway…
>
> Secondly, Let’s talk about how technology is affecting (and will continue to affect) newer generations of players. They are impatient, they are always wanting something to keep their attention held, millennials and future generations will grow up with high speed internet, tablets, computers, laptops, phones, and gaming consoles, and I believe this to be a factor in what keeps the newer generations wanting more. I fear that Halo could lose favor with some generations if it has what they perceive as “slow”, “boring”, or “monotonous” movement speed. They are, afterall, the future of Halo. If they don’t like Halo because it fails to hold their attention then they will stop buying the games and therefore eventually this will hurt the franchise. I am not saying everyone is going to ‘Sprint’ :wink: over to CoD or Destiny because of this but it could definitely be a determining factor for some.
> Another reason Sprint should be incorporated is because it gives new halo players the ability to stay out of the fire of more experienced players. This is a little tricky to word but lets say for example; you have played Halo (Whether it’s 3, 4, or 5 doesn’t matter ) since it’s release. You know all the best spots to snipe, where all the good vehicles are, and you probably a perfect technique built off your favorite loadout, and because of this, you’re always in the top ten on your team. Okay? Now let’s say I just bought the game and I’ve been playing for like 3 days. You and I are on opposing teams. You’ve decided I’m an easy target and you decided to be “that guy”. You’re looking for new players like me to beat on. If I can sprint, I have the ability to get away and avoid you because you can’t sprint and shoot at the same time. I will know I’m outmatched and I can make an effort not to get in your way. It’s no fun being the person at the bottom. If experienced players are always wanting to gun you down constantly and you don’t really get to play the game and get better, then you’re more inclined to play something else.
> So to directly answer your question, Vegeto30294, Sprint is not just there to “look pretty”, It’s not a tool of destruction that’s going to end the game we all love. It’s an element of movement that is becoming more popular with younger crowds and becoming a norm in many modern games.

Ok, I would never contradict a game series’ core mechanics to make it easier for people. If it’s something that if changed wouldn’t change a games mechanical identity then of course, its fine to make it easier for new players to get used to but otherwise no thanks. Otherwise its not the same game anymore… So yeah.
As for your tastes, way earlier in this thread I specified my tastes are actually similar to yours: fast paced sprinty gameplay. I love Halo 5’s gameplay. And I also love DOOM’s. But that doesn’t give anyone the right to change a game series for a bunch of people who loved it one way to fit their taste. If Halo 5 were a spin off (and had a better campaign and no P2W microtransactions) I’d love it a lot more. But instead it takes the place of the gameplay of classic Halo. Sure, the lack of sprint and clamber may very well be unforgiving. If that’s not your taste, then play a game with sprint and clamber, don’t try to turn every other game series into your favorite kind. That’s how we get a terrible entertainment industry: motonony. Its happened somewhat with movies. Most of them are pretty much unoriginal knockoffs of others. So, yes, we need games with sprint. But also, we need games without it. We need fast, free, open games. We also need slow, focused, linear games. No one does it wrong until its boring and repetitive or if its changed to where its no longer what it was. Now, of course technical upgrades (ie dedicated servers, crossplay) are a given. But of course, they don’t take away from the experience. Artistically games like Undertale (I speak for the game not the… PEOPLE) can and should if they so please look old. But technically, games should live up to a technical standard for necessity. But tastes of gameplay are relative and not necessity.
Now, why games like CoD introducing sprint are ok is because sprint was never a contradicting feature to the classic gameplay. In the olden games, plenty of features got in the way of gunplay (ie cooking grenades, health pack usage), so another feature didn’t contradict that. It was supposed to be a semi realistic experience… One that only escaped the realism of combat when it slowed things to the point of boredom or made it too slow for the multiplayer to function (taking away all armor abilities in Halo wouldn’t do that, I mean as in having to wait 2 whole minutes to use a health pack). Which is why people got mad in BO3 and even more so in Infinite Warfare…it deviated so much from the boots on the ground feel. In fact, when I heard that BO4 brought health packs into the game, at first I was mad. It played too much like Overwatch, it wasn’t CoD. But then I remembered… That was what CoD USED to be like. Its just a return to form, and I actually like that a lot. BO4 gameplay wise I think is a great game staying loyal to its predecessors. So how do all these games keep in form without becoming monotonous? Simple: do new things WITH that gameplay. BO4 introduced Blackout. Same gameplay mechanics as good ol CoD. New experience entirely. It works. The same for Halo could work well. If anything, DOOM and BO4’s success tell us that the gaming industry DOESN’T need to have changing gameplay standards. It just needs changing scenarios.
I get that you enjoy modern Halo. I do too. But it shouldn’t replace what 7 million people loved back in Halo 3. How do I propose a compromise? Simple: have one team work on modern games, the other working on classic ones. Halo’s ditched numbers, which is fine by me so long as it remembers to check back in with what made it good in the first place every so often. So yes, share your opinions and your tastes. But also make sure you recognize not everyone is the same way.

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> Lastly I don’t think the laws of physics are being renounced, or even stretched that far. The worst “culprit” is an infinitely replenishing fuel source. A Spartan still isn’t able to zip around the battle field in the air, thrusters only really provide brief pushes in given areas, augment forward movement, and provide very brief stability in air. And even when you’re “hovering,” you’re still moving forward and down; gravity still has effect.

It’s a propulsion system that is far too small taking into account the work it’s doing. If it’s based on rocket technology, it’s not physically plausible as I explained above. If it’s based on Forerunner technology, it’s based on magic. There is no physically pllausible explanation you can give to the Thruster Pack. If you can, please inform NASA. They’ll appreciate this supremely efficient and compact propulsion method.

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> > Lastly I don’t think the laws of physics are being renounced, or even stretched that far. The worst “culprit” is an infinitely replenishing fuel source. A Spartan still isn’t able to zip around the battle field in the air, thrusters only really provide brief pushes in given areas, augment forward movement, and provide very brief stability in air. And even when you’re “hovering,” you’re still moving forward and down; gravity still has effect.
>
> It’s a propulsion system that is far too small taking into account the work it’s doing. If it’s based on rocket technology, it’s not physically plausible as I explained above. If it’s based on Forerunner technology, it’s based on magic. There is no physically pllausible explanation you can give to the Thruster Pack. If you can, please inform NASA. They’ll appreciate this supremely efficient and compact propulsion method.

Not yet there isn’t… That’s my reasoning behind sci fi. Of course, if by sci fi you mean 20 years in the future… Then such advancement is obsurd given humans alone researched and developed it. But 500 should do the trick I think. Given the advancement in rocket tech has actually been decently fast if your talking SpaceX and not NASA. Not as fast as when the government actually CARED about it, but faster than pre 50’s rocketry. Anyways, who knows, some day we may make a fuel source capable of such power in such space being that reusable, we can’t confirm or deny otherwise.

Of course lore should never impact gameplay. But if we’re just talking lore here, then its not IMpossible.

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> > > Lastly I don’t think the laws of physics are being renounced, or even stretched that far. The worst “culprit” is an infinitely replenishing fuel source. A Spartan still isn’t able to zip around the battle field in the air, thrusters only really provide brief pushes in given areas, augment forward movement, and provide very brief stability in air. And even when you’re “hovering,” you’re still moving forward and down; gravity still has effect.
> >
> > It’s a propulsion system that is far too small taking into account the work it’s doing. If it’s based on rocket technology, it’s not physically plausible as I explained above. If it’s based on Forerunner technology, it’s based on magic. There is no physically pllausible explanation you can give to the Thruster Pack. If you can, please inform NASA. They’ll appreciate this supremely efficient and compact propulsion method.
>
> Not yet there isn’t… That’s my reasoning behind sci fi. Of course, if by sci fi you mean 20 years in the future… Then such advancement is obsurd given humans alone researched and developed it. But 500 should do the trick I think. Given the advancement in rocket tech has actually been decently fast if your talking SpaceX and not NASA. Not as fast as when the government actually CARED about it, but faster than pre 50’s rocketry. Anyways, who knows, sone day we may make a fuel source capable of such power in such space being that reusable, we can’t confirm or deny otherwise.
>
> Of course lore should never impact gameplay. But if we’re just talking lore here, then its not IMpossible.

We will not come up with a chemically based fuel that reches that level of efficiency. This is because the exhaust velocity is limited by the the ratio of the reaction energy to the mass of the reactants. if it’s not a chemical engine, one has to look elsewhere. Electric propulsion is the natural alternative, but here too there is a limiting factor, which is the power required to accelerate the exhaust to the sufficient velocity. Assuming ten grams per second of mass exhaust, the power to lift a Spartan is about a gigawatt. In fact, this is a very general limit that applies to all propulsion methods. Now, I can’t say that this is totally impossible, but with a basic understanding of physics, it seems highly implausible to manage such an energy density.

You have to keep in mind that we are working under very stringent standards of plausibility, since this whole discussion started with The Ragin Pagan questioning the plausibility of Spartans wall running without collapsing walls. So, that’s our baseline: an action that’s demonstrably plausible. (Since thick metal plates and concrete, the building materials of choice in a sci-fi game, are easily capable of handling half a ton of weight. Not to mention these are the same materials we already run on in the games.) Anything that’s less plausible than this evidently plausible action is not acceptable by the standards set by The Ragin Pagan. In particular anything that’s even mildly implausible is not acceptable, and the Thruster Pack is a bit more than mildly implausible.

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Y’know, people used to say we’d never fly either. But look at us now, breaking the sound barrier.

Halo has also long since included slipspace and faster than light travel, things that we’re nowhere near able of even conceptualizing too. Should we call up NASA for that as well, or chalk it up to magic too?

It is not implausible for thrusters to move, augment, or even briefly slow the descent of Spartans. Far more “improbable” things are included in Halo, and taken as absolutely normal and fitting.

I also see that yet again it’s being dragged in a point that I conceded - honestly, how many times must I point this out? - and this ridiculous strain of cynicism propping up my clearly stated opinion as though I’m posing as some arbiter of plausibility within the lore. I’ve moved on from that error, and if you can’t then again there’s very little point in discussion. You’ve criticized me before as being hostile or arrogant or some such, yet however I’m read I don’t think that warrants or excuses this manner of tedious harping on a done and dropped point.

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> 2533274804813082;1368:
> What are you on about? I said that it is preposterous for there to be lore arguments against Spartans sprinting. It doesn’t matter if there’s lore examples of them sprinting and shooting (not running and gunning, mind you,) that is a function of gameplay balance.

That is becoming somewhat a semantic grave battle tbh…In the end it comes down how people define sprint. When people talk about video games “sprint” usually refers to a mechanic that seperates top movement speed from “combat” movement speed. From a certain point of view one could argue that spartans did sprint (-> move at top speed) all the time during the OT. And I’d asssume that there a millions of former and active players that would argue that those game were balanced rather decently, despite being able to fire a weapon while moving at top speed…

> 2533274804813082;1368:
> Except I’m very clearly stating my opinions. But please, rather than try to spin it as me “preaching the one and only truth,” maybe give some example as to how Parkour and high-powered guns would work - within the scope and frame of the Halo Universe - in a game centered around First-Person Shooting.

Walk towards a wall, press jump, hold jump while touching the wall to wall-run, release jump to drop from the wall.
In lore, well something about thrusters…if they can propel you left and right or make you hover, it shouldn’t be a problem to stabilize for a short wall run…
Nothing I’d really want in a Halo game but just as much in the realms of possibility in the new Halo universe as many existing features…

> 2533274804813082;1368:
> It’s lazy to call it “space magic” when it’s established in the lore that Forerunners are highly advanced to the point of building planets, creating species, and even bending time. Slipspace is a simple matter for them, and they manipulate it with ease and frequency. In scenes where the Didact lifts the Chief, you can very clearly see distortion in the air between them of the same sort that surrounds the Didact’s Cryptum, as well as Chief’s armor locking in response. From that, you can quite simply deduce that it is either some manner of electromagnetic tethering, or even acute slipspace anchoring (akin to what anchored the Infinity to Requiem). “Tractor Beams” are a common theme in Sci-Fi, as well as magnetic anchoring. I’m talking magic like chanting and summoning a demon or some -Yoink!-.

If I go into the physics department of any real (!) university and ask about “Slipspace”? Will they show me masses of books and publications explaining how it works and what can be done with it or will they look at me slightly disturbed and ask me to leave? Slipspace is a reason Bungie/343 made up, it’s not real, it might be a common thing in Sci-Fi but in the end, it’s an idea that is being tweaked and rebuilt to fit a narrative purpose…If 343 hadn’t had this force choking scene in H4, nobody would think it is something that could be done with slipspace, it’s a (in my eyes cheesy) idea that 343 liked and build a lore around it.

> 2533274804813082;1368:
> Armatures that are really no different than the Sentinels from Halo: CE, or Sentinel Enforcers from Halo 2. Rather than deflecting, do explain how demonic entities slithered from some realm of Hell would be an “upgrade” or even plausible within the scope of the Halo Universe.

Well how do you feel about religion? If you’re a religious person and believe in all of that stuff it shouldn’t be problem for you to assume it’s the same situation in the Halo universe.
If not, what is a demon? Why does a “demon” has to be from the fictional place “hell”? Grunts call the chief “demon”, is he from “hell”?
But since you even brought it up: Slipspace. Some weird accident, boom, “demons” (as whatever you define them…) escape from a portal to another planet/whatever. Cheesy? Sure, but not really worse than this whole composer crap…

> 2533274804813082;1368:
> No, it does not. You do move at an accelerated rate. Comparing it to “other games” is irrelevant, as there is a marked difference in speeds within Halo 4 and 5’s movement rates.

That’s why I said it was true to some extend…
Let’s use a little analogy here: Let’s see you’re looking to buy a new TV.
Store A has the TV you want for a regular price of 899€.
Store B has the same TV for a regular Price of 1000€ but has a big sale so the price will go down 10%.
Is Store B cheaper than A? I mean you’re getting a discount, making it cheaper than it used to be regularly (in B) so it has to be cheaper right?
Comparing relative speed is very relevant considering many people complain about older games beeing/feeling to slow, and use it against sprint…

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> 2533274804813082;1375:
> Y’know, people used to say we’d never fly either. But look at us now, breaking the sound barrier.

Which is not really relevant, since flying has nothing to do with strapping compact 5 kN of thrust to a person’s back.

> 2533274804813082;1375:
> Halo has also long since included slipspace and faster than light travel, things that we’re nowhere near able of even conceptualizing too. Should we call up NASA for that as well, or chalk it up to magic too?

Yes, slipspace travel is absolutely sci-fi magic. It has no actual basis in reality.

> 2533274804813082;1375:
> It is not implausible for thrusters to move, augment, or even briefly slow the descent of Spartans. Far more “improbable” things are included in Halo, and taken as absolutely normal and fitting.

It is implausible that one could fit that amount of thrust into that small a space. You’re correct that there is a lot of stuff in Halo that’s much more implausible. However, the existence of these things doesn’t really change the fact that the Thruster Pack is not very plausible.

> 2533274804813082;1375:
> I also see that yet again it’s being dragged in a point that I conceded - honestly, how many times must I point this out? - and this ridiculous strain of cynicism propping up my clearly stated opinion as though I’m posing as some arbiter of plausibility within the lore. I’ve moved on from that error, and if you can’t then again there’s very little point in discussion. You’ve criticized me before as being hostile or arrogant or some such, yet however I’m read I don’t think that warrants or excuses this manner of tedious harping on a done and dropped point.

All I really wanted to get through is that if Spartans wall running is regarded as implausible, then so should be Thruster Pack. I didn’t know that you had dropped this standard of plausibility and moved on to something else.

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> 2533274825830455;1374:
> > 2535430289047128;1373:
> > > 2533274825830455;1372:
> > > > 2533274804813082;1368:
> > > > Lastly I don’t think the laws of physics are being renounced, or even stretched that far. The worst “culprit” is an infinitely replenishing fuel source. A Spartan still isn’t able to zip around the battle field in the air, thrusters only really provide brief pushes in given areas, augment forward movement, and provide very brief stability in air. And even when you’re “hovering,” you’re still moving forward and down; gravity still has effect.
> > >
> > > It’s a propulsion system that is far too small taking into account the work it’s doing. If it’s based on rocket technology, it’s not physically plausible as I explained above. If it’s based on Forerunner technology, it’s based on magic. There is no physically pllausible explanation you can give to the Thruster Pack. If you can, please inform NASA. They’ll appreciate this supremely efficient and compact propulsion method.
> >
> > Not yet there isn’t… That’s my reasoning behind sci fi. Of course, if by sci fi you mean 20 years in the future… Then such advancement is obsurd given humans alone researched and developed it. But 500 should do the trick I think. Given the advancement in rocket tech has actually been decently fast if your talking SpaceX and not NASA. Not as fast as when the government actually CARED about it, but faster than pre 50’s rocketry. Anyways, who knows, sone day we may make a fuel source capable of such power in such space being that reusable, we can’t confirm or deny otherwise.
> >
> > Of course lore should never impact gameplay. But if we’re just talking lore here, then its not IMpossible.
>
> We will not come up with a chemically based fuel that reches that level of efficiency. This is because the exhaust velocity is limited by the the ratio of the reaction energy to the mass of the reactants. if it’s not a chemical engine, one has to look elsewhere. Electric propulsion is the natural alternative, but here too there is a limiting factor, which is the power required to accelerate the exhaust to the sufficient velocity. Assuming ten grams per second of mass exhaust, the power to lift a Spartan is about a gigawatt. In fact, this is a very general limit that applies to all propulsion methods. Now, I can’t say that this is totally impossible, but with a basic understanding of physics, it seems highly implausible to manage such an energy density.
>
> You have to keep in mind that we are working under very stringent standards of plausibility, since this whole discussion started with The Ragin Pagan questioning the plausibility of Spartans wall running without collapsing walls. So, that’s our baseline: an action that’s demonstrably plausible. (Since thick metal plates and concrete, the building materials of choice in a sci-fi game, are easily capable of handling half a ton of weight. Not to mention these are the same materials we already run on in the games.) Anything that’s less plausible than this evidently plausible action is not acceptable by the standards set by The Ragin Pagan. In particular anything that’s even mildly implausible is not acceptable, and the Thruster Pack is a bit more than mildly implausible.

Ah. Possibility’s still there, but if we find a fuel that powerful it’d.probably melt through the armor.

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> 2533274801973487;1376:
> That is becoming somewhat a semantic grave battle tbh…

No, it’s really not. What you have following this sentence is nothing but your obfuscation of what is a simple and recognized mechanic. “Sprint” is not taken or understood to mean movement at top speed, but the mechanic of “Press __ Button > Move faster than normal”. The Bungie Trilogy did not have this mechanic, so the “certain point of view” that Spartans are sprinting in those games is false. Also considering the lore factor in that Spartans can run 55 kmph, a speed that is nowhere near matched in any game - certainly not the Bungie Trilogy.

> Walk towards a wall, press jump, hold jump while touching the wall to wall-run, release jump to drop from the wall.
> In lore, well something about thrusters…if they can propel you left and right or make you hover, it shouldn’t be a problem to stabilize for a short wall run…
> Nothing I’d really want in a Halo game but just as much in the realms of possibility in the new Halo universe as many existing features…

Given how fast a Spartan can run, and how far they can jump from such a run, that’s going to have to be a ridiculously far distance to where wall running would be necessary without being redundant.

> If I go into the physics department of any real (!) university and ask about “Slipspace”? Will they show me masses of books and publications explaining how it works and what can be done with it or will they look at me slightly disturbed and ask me to leave?

What part of Science Fiction eluded you? You know, the thing that Halo is? This whole vein of "call up NASA! Head to a university!" is just preposterous and completely beside the point. Halo is - and always has been - Science Fiction with a backbone of realism. Within the Halo Universe, and with what we know of the Forerunners, having a magnetic tether or a personal “tractor beam” isn’t off the map. Saying it’s “just some BS” that 343 made up, or relegating it to “Space Magic” completely sidesteps it’s presence with selective dismissal, when there’s so much more in the Halo Universe that’s taken as completely normal. How is what the Didact did any different or “magical” than 343 Guilty Spark grabbing the Icon, or Cortana somehow digitally storing said physical object? How about Tartarus’ “Get Over Here” Gravity Hammer?

Tying it back to mobility in Halo, and Spartan fighting style, not a lot of their combat makes sense for the inclusion of parkour. Gaps are never really far enough to where a Spartan would need to wall run to cross it, as they have a natural ability to leap farther than a standard human can. When you’re wearing a suit of power armor designed to make you a one-man army, you don’t really need to employ athletic movements designed to allow normal humans to reach otherwise out-of-reach places.

> If you’re a religious person and believe in all of that stuff it shouldn’t be problem for you to assume it’s the same situation in the Halo universe.

DOOM managed to include both demons and Hell without getting overly religious about it. Not to mention that there are spiritual and religious people within the Halo Universe who “believe in all that stuff” and yet we don’t have angels swooping down into battle, or demons slithering up from the ground. I’m even writing a Halo series centered around a squad from Sedra who practice a futuristic continuation of Modern Heathenry, and I still don’t have actual Valkyries or the Norse gods coming into play because that’s not Halo. Halo does not include the supernatural, and there would be no way to make it so. So it’s not as simple as just “coming up with a reason” to include a bunch of nonsense.

And yes, this includes the Composer, which is not supernatural but rather an encoding of mental content into electronic data. No different, really, than what the UNSC did to create Smart A.I. The foundation is right there in the Halo Universe. It also wouldn’t include the Forerunner’s geas, as those are genetic codes of instinct - they’ve been in the Halo Universe right from the beginning, as clearly seen when John simply “knew” how to activate Forerunner technology.

> Grunts call the chief “demon”, is he from “hell”?

Relative to the Covenant religion, as well as Sangheili superstitions and belief, the Spartans are called “demons”. Some Sangheili (per Glasslands) believe the Spartans to be re-animated corpses. In any case, it fits within the context of the Halo Universe as a facet of the Covenant religion and it’s after-effects. It does not, of course, mean that Spartans are actually demons.

> That’s why I said it was true to some extend…

You said that it was “true to an extent” (the post, not Sprint itself) because a bigger map makes for “slower movement”. It’s a slower covering of ground, but that’s not movement itself, is it? I’ve pointed out before - I believe in this thread - that the Halo 5 remake of The Pit is the exact same as in Halo 3, and plays the same. I’m certain there’s some difference in movement speed that could be tested using the two games, but in any case Sprint does augment movement. To which, you go on to say that Sprint gives the illusion of speed because you press a button and you’re “rewarded” with wobbling arms and speed sounds. This is not a true statement.

> 2533274825830455;1377:
> Which is not really relevant, since flying has nothing to do with strapping compact 5 kN of thrust to a person’s back.

We don’t know what fuel type is being used for the thrusters in Gen 2 suits, however. The fuel we’ve been discussing is used in the T-Packs; everything after that could very well be different and more advanced/effective. The relevance, though, is a progression of technology, and what was once thought to be impossible being made fact.

> Yes, slipspace travel is absolutely sci-fi magic. It has no actual basis in reality.

It has some. I can’t argue against slipspace travel in Halo being dubbed “sci-fi magic,” but I certainly don’t find it apt. However it’s done - per Ghosts of Onyx, creating a series of black holes and dropping into the dimension beneath the physical universe - in Halo it’s based in science. It might be fictional science that’s glossed over for the sake of being, well, made up, but it’s science. It’s not an NCO on deck chanting from eldritch tomes, pleading with Lovecraftian horrors to transport their ship through space faster. It’s not arcane emissions of power from the ship’s core. That’s what I meant by magic having no place in the Halo Universe.

> All I really wanted to get through is that if Spartans wall running is regarded as implausible, then so should be Thruster Pack. I didn’t know that you had dropped this standard of plausibility and moved on to something else.

My apology then, I thought it had been seen by all currently engaged in discussion.

As mentioned above, I don’t think that wall running is implausible because it’s impossible, but that it’s impractical for a Spartan to utilize when they have far more effective methods of covering distance at their disposal.

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> 2533274804813082;1379:
> We don’t know what fuel type is being used for the thrusters in Gen 2 suits, however. The fuel we’ve been discussing is used in the T-Packs; everything after that could very well be different and more advanced/effective. The relevance, though, is a progression of technology, and what was once thought to be impossible being made fact.

If I tell you that black cats and breaking the second law of thermodynamics are impossible, and you show me a black cat, breaking the second law of thermodynamics doesn’t suddenly become any more possible. The existence of black cats is not relevant when it comes to the possibility of breaking the second law of thermodynamics.

> 2533274804813082;1379:
> > Yes, slipspace travel is absolutely sci-fi magic. It has no actual basis in reality.
>
> It has some. I can’t argue against slipspace travel in Halo being dubbed “sci-fi magic,” but I certainly don’t find it apt. However it’s done - per Ghosts of Onyx, creating a series of black holes and dropping into the dimension beneath the physical universe - in Halo it’s based in science. It might be fictional science that’s glossed over for the sake of being, well, made up, but it’s science. It’s not an NCO on deck chanting from eldritch tomes, pleading with Lovecraftian horrors to transport their ship through space faster. It’s not arcane emissions of power from the ship’s core. That’s what I meant by magic having no place in the Halo Universe.

Not the Alcubierre drive. You know, the Alcubierre drive was the reason I reserved to say “slipspace travel is absolutely sci-fi magic” and not “FTL travel is absolutely sci-fi magic”, because otherwise you could bring up the Alcubierre drive, but you did it anyway. Doesn’t matter, because it has nothing to do with how slipspace travel is supposed to work in Halo.

As for the words “science” and “magic”, the way I mean them differs from you. When I say “sci-fi magic” I mean anything not based on actual established scientific principles. Likewise, by “science” I mean real science, not the “science” of the fictional universe. When I say something is magic, I mean it has no basis in reality, not that there are literally wizards and spells involved.

> 2533274804813082;1379:
> As mentioned above, I don’t think that wall running is implausible because it’s impossible, but that it’s impractical for a Spartan to utilize when they have far more effective methods of covering distance at their disposal.

If we start to police what’s practical, we’re left with very few things that actually are practical. If realism and practicality are your main concerns in gameplay design, I’m not sure how you’ve ended up with Halo to begin with.

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Over-all I don’t see a problem with sprint being in Halo. It adds a new flow of gameplay, makes the game far more competitive, and the skill gap gets even further between good players, and bad players.

Things like Ground pound, and Spartan charge can be argued thick and thin as to whether or not they belong, but sprint? It makes the gameplay flow well, even with tiny small maps that are already available in Halo 5. Take the Breakout game mode for example, it has everything in it already, and I don’t see anyone complaining about “muh sprint” in that section at all, especially considering Breakout has the smallest maps out of any game mode in Halo 5 altogether. Some of the maps are even smaller then the smallest maps ever made in all the other Halo games as well.

As for things like the new zoom animations, again, people can dislike or like them. I quite like them, but is it ADS? No. Not at all. ADS is an entirely different mechanic altogether, it has nothing to deal with “looks/animations” either.