The return of classic movement mechanics?

It is very important people listen to what Stardriver has to say. I just went thru his posts in this thread and he’s hitting often ignored, perhaps uncomfortable points that the Halo community is gonna need to grapple with if they a) want an idealistic Halo and b) want a successful Halo.

These are not the same thing.

I just told my buddy yesterday during some Blackout shenanigans that Halo 2A is, idealistically, how a classical designed Halo should play. But I know he doesn’t enjoy it, and much rather prefers Halo 4 (which we both contend is much more functional and stimulating than people protest). We have no issue with Armor Abilities or Sprint. Still, his fave Halo is Reach, which came off functionally odd to me. It was the first Halo he took seriously tho. We both dislike Halo 5’s core gameplay. And I personally think Halo CE while culturally important is the worst MP Halo has had. I will debate anybody on earth that one.

I’m mentioning the seemingly inconsistent whims of our preferences because the fact is Halo Infinite will likely not be akin Halo 2A, but also not like Halo 5 likely. I don’t care anyway; I want Haloi to be ‘functional’. I want it to reward good decisions in offense and defense, I don’t care if it becomes a game of X-Men again. And I want it to be successful.

This means I’m going to have to accept a silly mechanic here and there, but so long as it generally feels like Halo I’m good to go.

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> Mainly because they are in the current game, and the next game is supposed to take place fairly soon after this one. I don’t see a logical way to explain either the absence of Abilities that existed just months earlier, or the presence of new Abilities so quickly given what has to be higher priorities due to the events of the current game. Even though “lore doesn’t matter” in matchmaking, it does.

I mean, you’re going to have to do a lot of explaining about how we suddenly can’t hold two weapons at the same time (Dual Wielding). Or how we functionally regressed backwards in technology when it comes to ADS. And don’t get me started on Armor Abilities, how they existed before and after the original trilogy, but somehow not during, and then stopped existing again for the foreseeable future.

Things can, have, and are being removed simply due to gameplay reasons and nothing else (we just removed Ground Pound and Spartan Charge for HCS). No matter how much anyone, including 343i themselves, try to paint matchmaking as faithful to the lore or determined by the lore, there is still a very clear divider between the two.

This is the same franchise that brought Johnson back to life temporarily in Halo Wars II, and then explicitly said that it’s not based on current events.

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> > > > This is what I have been saying all along, and if you interpreted anything I wrote differently, that was a misconception on your part.
> > >
> > > Okay, so you can agree that the classic mechanics are gone from Halo 5, have been gone since Reach? That is, that they went away with Reach?
> >
> > I would agree with that. That’s what he’s been saying, that the only thing any one ever seems to want in Halo is a clone of the trilogy games, specifically Halo 3.
> >
> > The issue I personally take with this is that it is naive to the utmost to think this will somehow save Halo, as most people within the community seem to think.
>
> In my 10+ years on Halo forums, I’ve seen 2 or 3 people who said they want Halo CE, 2 or 3 copies.
>
> Want to hear a recurring scenario?
> If not I suggest you stop reading.
>
> Usually there’s someone who advlcates the removal of something(s), upon another person assumes that the first person only want a carbon copy of Halo X. Why? Because there’s no talk about other abilities, or changes to put in, as if starting a thread about a specific mechanic had to include other mechanics wanted by the OP.
>
> “I want sprint removed”
> yeah you just want a copy of Halo X
>
> Quite a large assumption based on the opinion of one out of several new mechanics.
>
> Of course the person wanting thing removed has to not look bad and says “no, I do not want a copy of Halo X”.
> Three things can happen, the first person pulls out their GDD, game design document, the first person is asked what kind of Halo he/she wants, and a GDD is pulled out or things are just left at that.
>
> When a GDD is pulled out and the person defending themselves spend time on elaborating what kind of Halo they want, it’s either not enough or it just gets ignored.
> Usually when it’s not enough it’s refered to as Halo X.5, no matter what kind of things are suggested because it’s not what the reciever want to hear. Though I have yet to see anyone elaborate on what kind of changes are needed to make the full increment of 1, instead of just 0.5 from a game moving forward to a sequel. Just as no one has been able to supply me with a list of these “standard / staple” mechanics for FPS games despite confidentely proclaiming that mechanic Y is a thing every fps needs as it’s a standard / staple.
>
> If it gets ignored, it is because no one cares, the one asking doesn’t care, and those participating in the thread doesn’t care for one person’s off-topic GDD as they are interested in the topic they clicked on.
>
> “You just want a Carbon Copy of Halo X” is just a method of making the opposition look bad and thus undermine their arguments / preferences.
> I mean, I could easily claim anyone who wants sprint to stay just want a carbon copy of Halo 4 / 5, and that any addition on top of that is just Halo 4.5, or Halo 5.5.

The reason we say people want a clone of Halo 3 is because just about every single thing that has changed about the games since that time has been criticized to hell and back, and 9 times out of 10 these changes are labeled as the reason for Halo falling from the top spot. Now, I’ll be right alongside you in saying that some of those changes were terrible–Halo Reach’s reticule bloom was a decision that only made sense on opposite day, and Halo 4’s loadout system was the most egregious attempt at trying to cash in on Call of Duty’s popularity the franchise has ever made. May Halo never make mistakes like them again. But acting like this community doesn’t perceive change as being generally detrimental to the overall Halo “feel” is being ignorant; no doubt you may not feel that way, but that attitude is one I run into frequently as someone who defends the new mechanics… Indeed, entire video essays have been made proclaiming that Halo taking on more “modern” mechanics like thruster pack is the reason for the game’s loss of popularity. Any argument made in favor of shifting market priority (also known as the “Halo hasn’t faced this much competition before” argument) is summarily ignored and argued against, so that the discussion can circle back around to Halo being unpopular because of the new mechanics–in a consumer market that follows trends and not mechanics. Everyone says Halo is failing because it’s trying to be Titantfall with mechanics like thruster pack, but no one seems to mention that Black Ops III, a Titanfall clone equally as old as Halo 5, is also the most successful post-MW Call of Duty game in the franchise, and is only just trailing CoD WWII in cocurrent players. Somehow, Titanfall clones have saturated the industry and this explains Halo 5’s low popularity, but at the same time Halo is also the only franchise jumping on this trend that is having any problems. Which begs the question, is there a problem at all, and if there is, can it really be pinned on the mechanics, or something larger in the overall gaming market?

I have personally been having that argument for the last 3 years so you can’t tell me this isn’t true. Indeed, if there was not some kind communal desire for Halo to mechanically go back to the way it was around the time of Halo 3, there would not be a 59 page thread dominating the Halo Infinite forum since E3 about literally exactly that. The only other topics that get as much attention as the classic mechanics argument is America’s election season. The attitude that Halo’s current lower position in popularity can be pinned largely around its changing mechanics is real. Very little attention is granted to what works in the new games, or rather why some people like it.

Personally, I like where Halo 5 is at gameplay wise. As a Quake vet, it reminds me of Quake; it’s an equal starts arena shooter with movement mechanics that everyone can use, but are difficult to master. It’s not as skillful as Quake (sprint-slide-jump-boost is a lot easier than strafe jumping, input-wise), but utilizing all of the traversal options to your fullest advantage is something I can appreciate. It feels more satisfying than the very simple “walk forward until you see an enemy” kind of movement the previous games had. Halo 5 maintains the gunplay of Halo while adding in new options in the form of movement. I like button inputs that can influence my speed and hitbox, because it allows me to overcome situations where I simply would have died in previous games. You get into a 2+v1 in Halo 3, your only option is to run away if you want to survive, assuming the other two players are at least half as good as you are at putting the reticule on target. You get into a 2+v1 in Halo 5, you have options that increase your survivability and you can pull out some clutch plays. It makes mind games infinitely more intense, and adds layers to engagements the prior games didn’t have. That’s what I feel works in Halo 5. We can go back and forth about where it can be improved, what it does well, etc. But in my experience, I am not used to having that kind of discourse with this community; indeed, I stopped coming to this site because it was becoming toxic with all the divisiveness.

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> > > This is what I have been saying all along, and if you interpreted anything I wrote differently, that was a misconception on your part.
> >
> > Okay, so you can agree that the classic mechanics are gone from Halo 5, have been gone since Reach? That is, that they went away with Reach?
>
> No

But didn’t we just agree that no original Halo game made since Reach has classic mechanics?

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> > > I’m in this thread to debunk the notion that “classic movement mechanics” went away, and some sort of “return” needs to happen.
> >
> > But they did. We haven’t had a new game with classic mechanics since Reach.
>
> I don’t agree with that assessment. However, @Darth Cedious cleared this up for me in a nice, concise manner. It’s not the mechanics, it’s the philosophy behind the mechanics that went away. I get it now.

But didn’t you just agree with me what classic mechanics means here? Now you’re saying something that’s in conflict with what you said earlier.

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> Might be some miscommunication here. I was referring to the effort required to get your character out of danger in a Halo match. Any Halo match. Regardless of how you got in the match, once you’re there and your character is one-shot and there’s a grenade incoming, the effort required to get out of the way with a one-button push is only slightly less than the effort to get out of the way with any other button or button combination (except when people using Boxer have to do that “claw” thing. Boxer gets no love). It’s like choosing between taking the elevator or the escalator because stairs mean actually climbing with your own muscles.

This neglects the mechanic by which you’re dodging the grenade. If you have a dodge mechanic that allows you to cover a great distance in a very short period, then using it is much less time sensitive than using a mechanic that covers less distance in the same amount of time. This means that in the latter case you need to be able to react and make the decision faster, which is the effort I’m talking about here.

But since you misunderstood what I meant by effort initially, let me rephrase my original statement in a way that’s hopefully clearer: the issue has never been that players can get away at all, but that the amount of skill needed to have a successful getaway from a given situation is lower. Alternatively, the game has become significantly more lenient with respect to how badly you need to screw up to end up in a situation where you can’t escape.

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> It is very important people listen to what Stardriver has to say. I just went thru his posts in this thread and he’s hitting often ignored, perhaps uncomfortable points that the Halo community is gonna need to grapple with if they a) want an idealistic Halo and b) want a successful Halo.

Such as?

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>

> It is very important people listen to what Stardriver has to say. I just went thru his posts in this thread and he’s hitting often ignored, perhaps uncomfortable points that the Halo community is gonna need to grapple with if they a) want an idealistic Halo and b) want a successful Halo.
> These are not the same thing.

There is no such thing as an idealistic halo, if you read the often ignored, perhaps uncomfortable points that the ‘classic’ community argue is that there are certain game mechanics and design decisions which have not changed in any of the games, but that many of the design decisions in reach/post-reach games undermine some of these fundamental decisions (which i’ll elaborate on later)

> that Halo 2A is, idealistically, how a classical designed Halo should play. But I know he doesn’t enjoy it, and much rather prefers Halo 4 (which we both contend is much more functional and stimulating than people protest).

No H2a is just H2 with refinements hence H2 in the name, it also has a limited map pool and like 1 playlist, the MCC is not a good indicator when everything is bundled up and split apart. It’s like wanting a 3 course meal and getting a sampler.

Halo 4 wasn’t a very functional game for the first year (most crucial year) of its lifespan and died due to being both a glitchy mess and not knowing what it wanted to be. Stimulating is in the eye of the beholder, a game aims to be stimulating, a poor VR game or indie game is stimulating it’s not hard.

> We have no issue with Armor Abilities or Sprint. Still, his fave Halo is Reach, which came off functionally odd to me. It was the first Halo he took seriously tho.

So because you and your friend don’t mind it negates anyones concerns? Reach is nearly my favourite, however like all games had holes, reach is only armour abilities away from being a classic Halo game, it largely functions the same otherwise. Bloom and a large chunk of the maps being forge are negatives though.

> I personally think Halo CE while culturally important is the worst MP Halo has had. I will debate anybody on earth that one.

If we’re only talking about game mechanics not online presence or anything like that, and mainly talking small team (4v4 or less) then H4 infinity settings (the default game), default reach, H5 and H3 have weaker mechanics.

Infinity settings H4 was a random and chaotic mess with global, personal ordnance, AAs and loadouts throwing away the game aspect of the videogame, it cheated you or turned against you as much as the yugioh tv series. It’s map lineup bar Haven was weak.

H5 has atrocious lookturn mechanics (still even post patch) a movement system very detached from the franchise (chasing trends), poor weapon balancing in relation to the movement and map design. All maps are forgettable and only seem there to get the job done, as lifeless as a doll.

H3 BR had bullet spread that made longer engagements a nightmare, everyhting that wasn’t the sniper was terribly weak, the game had poor netcode and was very sluggish.

Default reach bloom is worse than H3 spread, had a poor map roster, sprint and jetpack (and evade rip) were the only worthwhile AAs, jetpack was far more rewarding on many maps and the defacto AA on maps where it could gain an unfair advantage by abusing map design that didn’t fully account for its inclusion, otherwise it was only by the openness of maps and the sluggishness of sprint that a bloom DMR could kill, otherwise the game would be hair-pullingly frustrating.

I’d say the visuals, jump and general delay, less variety, the expansions further games did and comparison to the less aggressive h2-reach style either ages it or makes it feel less recent/modern. Good roster of weapons, all useful, solid map lineup, crisp gameplay bar any delay. Purely from a mechanics / fundamentals perspective and not the full package CE got far more right than wrong than most other games, including future titles.

> I’m mentioning the seemingly inconsistent whims of our preferences because the fact is Halo Infinite will likely not be akin Halo 2A, but also not like Halo 5 likely. I don’t care anyway; I want Haloi to be ‘functional’. I want it to reward good decisions in offense and defense, I don’t care if it becomes a game of X-Men again. And I want it to be successful.

It isn’t inconsistent, we have addressed what we see as classic Halo, it becomes less consistent at the ‘what to do next’ chapter, though that isn’t the fan responsibility, though i’d argue the classic community knows what it doesn’t want, as someone who has been arguing the case for 8 years, the identification of the things that make classic Halo is pretty bare bones and unanimous, the fervor comes from the minimal requirement to make it a ‘classic’ experience for people who want it, isn’t being met.

  • ability to move and shoot at all times, only time you cant shoot is to reload / switch / nade, key momentary actions which offer a pause and point of temporary weakness for the player

  • mechanics which work well with the (rather) established Halo map design, despite 2 different devs and wildly diferent mechanics the only major shift in design has been less asyms post-CE, the general size and style of the design is not shared by any other game, the only difference is the attempt to warp the design to fit new movement mechanics, the advanced-movement trend breaks the map design and structure of Halo combat found in any other game (including 4)

  • no randomness or design decisions which make the game chaotic

  • the power is on the map not off spawn

  • make sure the staple playlists / gametypes are in the game…not soon or a halfbaked version

  • all weapons serve a unique / distinct purpose, Halo has always kept to the essentials, not a cod clone with 5 shades of the same thing.

Some people might offer adjustments to those but every person who is pro-classic believes in all of those.

Much like ‘stimulating’ functional is an exceptionally low bar. Many arguements against 4 and 5 is that is has a skewed and unfair reward for defensive play due to H4 additions and H5 movement, i don’t feel those games proportionally reward good decision making. Those that are pro-classic dont want it to be X-men again because we want it to be Halo, that in turn will find some level of success, more than we currently have…eg game that is #1 and face of xbox vs a game that despite all the marketing and funding struggles to get inside the top 20 at times. The raving and speculation at the thought of a more classic game by reviewers and other external non-diehard fan sources should at least make those pro-343 less confident in their assumptions.

> This means I’m going to have to accept a silly mechanic here and there, but so long as it generally feels like Halo I’m good to go.

If a Super Mario focused less on the thing that made it a staple (jumping and platforming) would it still be a Super Mario game? Mario went through a rough period after the galaxy games, were those wanting the fundamentals to be front and center wearing nostalgia googles and should go back to Galaxy/Sunshine/64/World etc? What if you feel that silly mechanic cheapens or alters the game so majorly that it doesn’t feel like Halo…or at least not one worth playing?

I liked Spyro for its platforming, i don’t care about the brand or the franchise, i liked the experience and would like to play more of that experience. When the legend of spyro games released i had no interest, was it due to the nostalgia or the lack of something i enjoyed?

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> > > I’m in this thread to debunk the notion that “classic movement mechanics” went away, and some sort of “return” needs to happen.
> >
> > But they did. We haven’t had a new game with classic mechanics since Reach.
>
> I don’t agree with that assessment. However, @Darth Cedious cleared this up for me in a nice, concise manner. It’s not the mechanics, it’s the philosophy behind the mechanics that went away. I get it now.
>
> I still disagree, but for different reasons.

Darth’s post alludes to the ‘Golden Triangle’ as a ‘philosophy’ I believe. Grenades, weapons, melee and if memory serves, Bungies’ philosophy was that you should always have access to any one of those mechanics at any particular time, with the exception of when in a vehicle. This concept, IMO, is “classic mechanics” at its core and I support it 100%.

Sprint takes away the ability to do anything but run, for the entire duration of its use. Can’t be offensive, can’t defend yourself… and to make matters worse, you can’t recharge shields. It goes against the classic mechanics philosophy. Clamber does as well. Until the animation is over, you can’t press offensively and you can’t defend yourself. Spartan Charge… been awhile, but I don’t think you’re able to do anything but charge when using it. Ground Pound. You’re stuck, hovering in the air and can’t do anything but move a silly targeting circle around. I’m a bit on the fence about assassinations… the animation itself takes up time, for little more than gratuity’s sake, but at least it isn’t time completely wasted as you get the kill, so at least you accomplish the offensive task it’s designed for.

Wonder if anyone has ever gotten any stats on how much all of those mechanics have been/are being used and the amount of combined time that has been wasted using mechanics that deny the ability to shoot, grenade, or melee? Would be interesting to see I bet. I mean for all of these “abilities” we’ve been inundated with, it seems they can’t do anything that doesn’t take away a small-to-large part of, or slice of time from the classic mechanics philosophy. You can do all these cool new things, but you can’t shoot/melee/nade while doing them. JMPO, but any “ability” that has to remove another ability just so it can exist in the game and remain in balance, isn’t an ability. It’s a trade off. Just me, but I don’t want a First Person Button-masher… I want a FPS.

>> TheCelticDragon

> There is no such thing as an idealistic halo, if you read the often ignored, perhaps uncomfortable points that the ‘classic’ community argue is that there are certain game mechanics and design decisions which have not changed in any of the games, but that many of the design decisions in reach/post-reach games undermine some of these fundamental decisions (which i’ll elaborate on later)

Obviously there is but I suppose I’ll address that when you do in your post.

> No H2a is just H2 with refinements hence H2 in the name, it also has a limited map pool and like 1 playlist, the MCC is not a good indicator when everything is bundled up and split apart. It’s like wanting a 3 course meal and getting a sampler.

Then Halo 2 with refinements would fit my criteria for a classically idea Halo. And since we’re talking about gameplay, I don’t know why map pool and playlist even factors here. But that’s neither here nor there, since that point was merely a set-up for what I know now was an ignored or too abstract a metaphor when I wrote it. So going forward I’ll spell it out; me and my bud were metaphors for the distinction between two generations of Halo players.

> Halo 4 wasn’t a very functional game for the first year (most crucial year) of its lifespan and died due to being both a glitchy mess and not knowing what it wanted to be. Stimulating is in the eye of the beholder, a game aims to be stimulating, a poor VR game or indie game is stimulating it’s not hard.

This is one of the uncomfortable things I was talking about that you guys take issue with.

Halo 4, again, was far more functional and fun than what a great deal of you are willing to accept. It was not a “glitchy mess”, and its gameplay identity wasn’t quite as ambiguous as you’d want to believe. Now I’m not gonna sit here and pretend it was some definitive Halo title or even that I liked every decision made in the game (many decisions that undermined its own potential, 343 mishandled their own Ordinance and scoring system), but Halo 4 had a healthy enough population right up until X1 dropped. I’m sure that’s an affront to the “Millions need to be online for a game to be considered alive” mantra, but in the modern age of much larger selection pool of games each vying for maximum player attention, it was well enough.

> So because you and your friend don’t mind it negates anyones concerns? Reach is nearly my favourite, however like all games had holes, reach is only armour abilities away from being a classic Halo game, it largely functions the same otherwise. Bloom and a large chunk of the maps being forge are negatives though.

Yes. After all somebody is going to have to eat dirt when Haloi launches, and all this ballyhoo on the forums are people desperately trying to not be that player as another gets exactly what he wants. I can finally accept that I’ll be dealing with things I don’t like. I’m not gonna do the thing where I pretend my concerns are “good for everybody”. We’re all trying to get exactly what we want.

> If we’re only talking about game mechanics not online presence or anything like that, and mainly talking small team (4v4 or less) then H4 infinity settings (the default game), default reach, H5 and H3 have weaker mechanics.

This ‘default settings’ pre-empt you’re doing is a cop out. I can’t think of too many games that were fine in its vanilla settings. I believe H4 sans personal ordinance, with an improved scoring system, and re-balanced/regulated pre-set loadouts is a better game than both H3 and H5.

> Good roster of weapons, all useful, solid map lineup, crisp gameplay bar any delay. Purely from a mechanics / fundamentals perspective and not the full package CE got far more right than wrong than most other games, including future titles.

  • Halo CE is 3-Tap and it’s absurd to even joke that it’s weapon sandbox is anything near balanced. If you’re not running pistols you better be sniping. Any modern game with that state of weapon balance would be ripped apart.
  • CE’s arena maps only barely worked for the game’s core mechanics. The BTB maps couldn’t even allow for tanks to be allowed seriously (the effect of which greatly influenced BTB map design in H2 and H3 to value segmented regions in the first place). So if we’re talking H1 MP, we’re really talking arena maps and nothing more.

> the fervor comes from the minimal requirement to make it a ‘classic’ experience for people who want it, isn’t being met.

Other people want something else. You’re going to have to square with that.

> - ability to move and shoot at all times, only time you cant shoot is to reload / switch / nade, key momentary actions which offer a pause and point of temporary weakness for the player

I’m not so sure this has been too subverted in any Halo title, actually

> - mechanics which work well with the (rather) established Halo map design,

See now you’re running into the dissonance that I often see from this kind of argument. First you started this post off by saying there isn’t an idealistic Halo, then you literally list out your idealist Halo. Second you speak of mechanics that work with established (ideal) Halo map design, but rather than consider updated map design that fits the evolving mechanics, you rather the mechanics be stripped to serve not even the current map philosophy, but a past game’s philosophy.

> - the power is on the map not off spawn

Pre-set loadouts in Halo 4 never had power weapons, and even if they did it’s as simple as removing it.

> - all weapons serve a unique / distinct purpose, Halo has always kept to the essentials, not a cod clone with 5 shades of the same thing.

Agreed, though I don’t know why any little convention Halo adds is attributed to CoD. The ‘just like CoD’ thing is a dismissive tactic that also displays the Halo community’s arrogance ignoring how much crossover there actually is between Halo players and other FPS communities. CoD has arguably a larger player base than Halo, and a far more consistent population within past titles. Who exactly is the joke on by dismissing certain mechanics as CoD in the negative?

> Much like ‘stimulating’ functional is an exceptionally low bar. Many arguements against 4 and 5 is that is has a skewed and unfair reward for defensive play due to H4 additions and H5 movement, i don’t feel those games proportionally reward good decision making.

The ability to finish encounters is not important.

> Those that are pro-classic dont want it to be X-men again because we want it to be Halo, that in turn will find some level of success,

You mean pleasing those particular fans? Sure, they’d be happy. But as I said in the thread; pleasing you and being a successful game are two different things.

> What if you feel that silly mechanic cheapens or alters the game so majorly that it doesn’t feel like Halo…or at least not one worth playing?

I play another game.

> I liked Spyro for its platforming, i don’t care about the brand or the franchise, i liked the experience and would like to play more of that experience. When the legend of spyro games released i had no interest, was it due to the nostalgia or the lack of something i enjoyed?

Probably both but you need to remember you live in a world where people love those games.

The moral of the story: the Halo fan base makes the Dead Sea look like a refreshing beverage.

I’m sorry, but ive played Halo since CE and i really think Sprint,Smart link,Clamber, thrusters really enhance the game play for the better.

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> Quoting from both of your posts but I’m too lazy to pick them apart properly but this should do just fine:
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> > I don’t believe I said anything like that. What I have been saying is that “classic mechanics” seems to mean only mechanics that were in the game before Reach. Actually, if I get specific I characterize “classic mechanics” as those present in Halo 3, which many classic fans will tell you was the most popular Halo release, because of the mechanics. As you say:
>
> In addition to what tsassi said and to clarify what I’ve been saying:
> To me: “classic mechanics” (or to be more accurate: the classic movement philosophy)= having one universal combat&traversal movement speed (excluding the highly situational crouch and vehicles, teleporters, man cannons, etc…) and beeing able to perform any kind of movement (move, crouch, jump, and whatever 343 can think of) without having to lower your weapon and having to do some sort of additional animation that takes away control from the player.
>
> So to make some examples.
> Things that could potentially work within a classic movement philosophy:
> - Double Jump (beeing able to press jump while in the air to get a seccond boost) → could work as within a classic movement philosophy (if it actually is fun is a different story that would have to be tasted) - Wall kick (beeing able to get a seccond boost when pressing jump while hitting a wall)-> could work as within a classic movement philosophy (if it actually is fun is a different story that would have to be tasted) - Thrust that allows you to keep your weapon up → could work as within a classic movement philosophy (if it actually is fun is a different story that would have to be tasted)Things that do not work within a classic movement philosophy:
> - Sprint - Clamber - Thrust with an animation that takes away control from the player and forces him to lower the weapon - laying down-mechanic that uses a animation that takes away control from the player and forces him to lower the weaponStuff like a Jetpack would technically work within that classic movement philosophy if it would restrict your ability to fire your weapon while using it but ultimatly it wouldn’t work well for balancing and would break map flow so I didn’t include them in the list.
> I cannot say those mechanics i listed above would be fun in a Halo game but it’s something that would be compatible with my definition of a “classic movement (philosophy)” so no it’s not restricted to what has been there in H3 for me.

I really think this part of this post by DARTH CEDIOUS sums up things really well. The whole “having one universal combat & traversal movement speed” part. I know a lot of people who definitely want this. All my friends save maybe one, really want this to be a thing again in Halo.

Also, I must say that when I first heard people suggest that a form of double jump could potentially work pretty well in Halo, I never gave it much thought. After giving it more thought, I’m actually really starting to think it would and work much better then any sort of clamber too. Gameplay wise it would because your gun is always up, which is a good thing. You would obviously give it some sort of cool down like thrusters have in Halo 5. I’m guessing you’d tie it into them or something otherwise a person could just abuse it.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to point out the fundamental difference between Halo and Call of Duty (CoD being the game that really went head-to-head with Halo and they were often compared to each other by both communities) is that Halo has shields. That’s an Armor Ability, and a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Halo CE’s movement philosophy was not the result of years of research by Bungie’s Game Mechanics Institute. The simplicity so many are enamored with was the result of employing existing practices and having the advantage of working with a character that is super human (not to mention it made it easier to meet Micro$ofts ridiculous launch expectations). If you toned down Master Chief’s movements to reflect a standard human, you would have had a game that played very much like GoldenEye, which featured similar weapons and equipment, but no super strength or high, floaty jumps. In GoldenEye, Abilities could be either pickups or part of your loadout. Loadout items were agreed upon by the contestants before the match begins. You could choose no loadout items if you wanted.

The other thing is that there was no thought given to multiplayer during the development of Halo CE. Therefore, there was no effort to have the game perform magnificently in a multiplayer setting.By that I mean things like weapon balance, equal starts, golden triangle, BMS, or whatever else you’re supposed to mix together to get classic movement mechanics. A lot of what is attributed to Halo’s unique multiplayer experience has more to do with the character meeting the criteria of an augmented human wearing fusion-powered intelligent armor with built-in shields. Halo CE’s multiplayer was simply the campaign settings in a multiplayer environment.

Bungie always wanted Master Chief to be able to do more than what was possible for them in CE. Each new game they made him more capable in one way or another. His armor improves. He gets access to more weapons. He gains an ability like hijacking or dual-wielding. Not for multiplayer, but for the campaign. For the story. What he gets in the campaign went into multiplayer, if possible. They never cared what that did to the mechanics philosophy. People complained. Bungie ignored the complaints. Yet, each game they made outdid every previous game they made. The only time Bungie ever made a claim that they were going back to the roots was when they made Reach. Even then they weren’t talking about multiplayer. They were talking about playing the game. Remember, Reach was a spinoff prequel that did not have to meet the playstyle standards of the main trilogy I’m not saying Bungie didn’t have a movement mechanics philosophy. I’m saying if they did, it was a vague one. Their emphasis was campaign.

343i’s emphasis has been multiplayer (and esports). They have been willing to do just about anything to get online multiplayer numbers like Halo 3 appeared to have. If you were around when 343i took over the reins, you know that there were a lot of simple solutions flying around out there that were guaranteed to “bring the community back”. However, the population numbers in FireFight Arcade were hard to ignore. Halo 4 was the first game that had different mechanics between campaign and multiplayer. For a lot of people this meant choosing. If you went with multiplayer, you probably liked Halo 4 a lot less than if you went campaign/SpOps. It’s true that by this time Halo was no longer meeting any classic movement philosophy criteria that existed back with Halo 3, but it’s also true that no Halo game ever played precisely like any previous Halo game, movement-wise. The only real difference between 343i and Bungie, with respect to multiplayer, is the level of change between games. 343i went overboard.

It’s understandable, then, for the fans that feel they were hurt the most to want 343i to go overboard the other way. Problem is, overboard is overboard. There are no simple solutions. “Just” do this or “just” get rid of that is not how it works. “Just” doing stuff got us here. Short-sighted simple solutions that were supposed to turn things around after a single release. Halo 4 was supposed to bury Reach. I remember new copies of Halo 4 at GameStop selling for less than used copies of Reach. This tells me that there still remained something fundamentally different between Bungie-produced Reach and 343i-produced Halo 4.

It appears to me that the “philosophy” that worked from Halo CE thru 3 had more to do with the developer’s perception of the game. For Bungie, Halo was one game. For 343i, Halo is two games, campaign and multiplayer. This represents the famous “Rift in the Community”. If you like campaign, you probably like Abilities and what they do for the way you play. If you like multiplayer, you don’t see any point for Abilities and you believe they detract from a true Halo experience. The vast majority is in the middle and sees some benefit for some Abilities.

So, if we were able to identify everything that compelled people to go online and play Halo 3 eleven years ago and faithfully reproduced that for Halo: Infinite, there is no guarantee that the results today would be the same, or even similar. Nothing else is similar, especially the market. It’s just unlikely. What if, though, 343i wrote a great campaign for Halo: Infinite, and in that campaign you were able to move and perform as one would reasonably expect a Spartan would, and you had equipment available that made good military sense, and then in multiplayer, in a standard game, everything worked the same way?

After all, isn’t this thread ultimately about going back to what worked (based on sales and popularity)?

The only way to truly address the issue is to adopt a conscientious game philosophy.

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> > 2533274795123910;1172:
> > Wanting a deep yet non-complex game with as little hand holding as possible, is a bad reason to want to remove abilities
>
> Sarcasm: >>detected<<.

I wasn’t being sarcastic, what I wrote is how I interpreted what was written.

Unless of course it was you initially being sarcastic which I didn’t pick up.

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> > -What are the good reasons for wanting the abilities in?
>
> Mainly because they are in the current game, and the next game is supposed to take place fairly soon after this one. I don’t see a logical way to explain either the absence of Abilities that existed just months earlier, or the presence of new Abilities so quickly given what has to be higher priorities due to the events of the current game. Even though “lore doesn’t matter” in matchmaking, it does.

Out of all three answered, two were expected and this one stuck out the most.

Why should there have to be a logical explanation for the removal or addition of mechanics and features based on the time frame between one game and its sequel?

That is just a non-sensical restriction. I’m sure you’ve raised concern on the forums regarding the “illogicalities” between different games?

That is just “lore >> gameplay”.

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> > 2533274795123910;1180:
> > “You just want a Carbon Copy of Halo X” is just a method of making the opposition look bad and thus undermine their arguments / preferences.
> > I mean, I could easily claim anyone who wants sprint to stay just want a carbon copy of Halo 4 / 5, and that any addition on top of that is just Halo 4.5, or Halo 5.5.
>
> Indeed, I started my end of this discussion by declaring that using the Halo 3 engine would solve the problem.

What does the engine of a specific have to do with anything?

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> It was a preposterous notion meant to spur discussion about the definition of “classic mechanics”. I think this discussion may have just become different because it may become about the philosophy behind the mechanics, and not the mechanics themselves.

Yet the notion was used.

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> Just saying that there was only so much you could do on a console in 2001, and Bungie did not stick with any philosophy that involved not adding any new mechanics when it came to Halo 2 or Halo 3.

So, what couldn’t you do on a console in 2001?

> 2533274798957786;1192:
> The other thing is that there was no thought given to multiplayer during the development of Halo CE. Therefore, there was no effort to have the game perform magnificently in a multiplayer setting.By that I mean things like weapon balance, equal starts, golden triangle, BMS, or whatever else you’re supposed to mix together to get classic movement mechanics. A lot of what is attributed to Halo’s unique multiplayer experience has more to do with the character meeting the criteria of an augmented human wearing fusion-powered intelligent armor with built-in shields. Halo CE’s multiplayer was simply the campaign settings in a multiplayer environment.

Well, this is just false. First of all, I really recommend listening to this interview with the Halo CE multiplayer Lead Designer Hardy LeBel who was basically the guy responsible for the Halo CE multiplayer. Not just because it clarifies some of the aspects of how the Halo CE multiplayer came about, but also just because it’s a really fun and interesting interview.

Anyway, he was brought in one and a half years before the game launched when the multiplayer was about to be scrapped, and he really thought mutliplayer was important, took it over, and made it what it is today. If you listen through the interview, it should become immediately clear that he deeply cared about the multiplayer, had a pretty clear vision and concrete principles, and that the whole multiplayer team put a lot of thought into it.

It’s also worth mentioning that even before LeBel was brought in, Bungie had a clear vision for multiplayer, though it was very different from LeBel’s vision. In any case, saying that “there was no thought given to multiplayer during the development of Halo CE” is just blatantly false. Of course, a lot of the game’s design naturally came from the single player, but to suggest that the multiplayer was nothing but an afterthought is a bit disrespectful to these people who put their heart and soul into it.

> 2533274798957786;1192:
> Bungie always wanted Master Chief to be able to do more than what was possible for them in CE. Each new game they made him more capable in one way or another. His armor improves. He gets access to more weapons. He gains an ability like hijacking or dual-wielding. Not for multiplayer, but for the campaign. For the story. What he gets in the campaign went into multiplayer, if possible. They never cared what that did to the mechanics philosophy.

Again, this is just false. Want to hazard a guess why the SMG was a starting weapon in Halo 2, but not Halo 3, or why dual wielding was ultimately completely removed? How about why sprint got scrapped from Halo 2?

The assertion that Bungie never cared what their design choices meant for their design philosophy is just silly. Obviously, you wouldn’t have a design a philosophy if you don’t use it. There’s probably a bunch of stuff we’ve never even heard about that was scrapped in pre-planning stages because it didn’t mesh with the design philosophy. That doesn’t mean Bungie didn’t keep on evolving the gameplay of CE, they obviously did. But, you know, having a design philosophy, and evolving your game are not mutually exclusive, neither is having a design philosophy, and every now and then making decisions that violate that philosophy.

> 2533274798957786;1192:
> I suppose this is as good a time as any to point out the fundamental difference between Halo and Call of Duty (CoD being the game that really went head-to-head with Halo and they were often compared to each other by both communities) is that Halo has shields. That’s an Armor Ability, and a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Oh come one, you can do better then that…

> Halo CE’s movement philosophy was not the result of years of research by Bungie’s Game Mechanics Institute

Sometimes, you just have to be lucky…

> The other thing is that there was no thought given to multiplayer during the development of Halo CE. Therefore, there was no effort to have the game perform magnificently in a multiplayer setting.By that I mean things like weapon balance, equal starts, golden triangle, BMS, or whatever else you’re supposed to mix together to get classic movement mechanics. A lot of what is attributed to Halo’s unique multiplayer experience has more to do with the character meeting the criteria of an augmented human wearing fusion-powered intelligent armor with built-in shields. Halo CE’s multiplayer was simply the campaign settings in a multiplayer environment.

Again: it doesn’t matter, if it’s the result of years of planning or just luck: CE worked and it established the foundation of a great franchise setting expectations for many fans. Ironically, Bungie never fully undersood the brilliance of their “accident” and kept trying to have the utility weapon not the main starting weapon at launch of each game but would correct that mistage later on. Sadly this led to many players having a misconception about haw Halo’s sandbox works…

> Reach was a spinoff prequel that did not have to meet the playstyle standards of the main trilogy I’m not saying Bungie didn’t have a movement mechanics philosophy. I’m saying if they did, it was a vague one. Their emphasis was campaign.

About Bungie philosophy, well they never talked about it in public but most devs wouldn’t do such a thing but I think they had a rathe clear picture of how Halo should play up until Reach. A few months ago, some modder found hidden coding in H2 that revealed that sprint was at one point in the game, he made a video about it and eventually a former (?) Bungie dev commented on this matter saying that they did try it but it was cut rather early due to not fitting into Halos gameplay pacing.

> This tells me that there still remained something fundamentally different between Bungie-produced Reach and 343i-produced Halo 4.

Personal speculation coming up: Reach was the follow up to Halo 3, a game that was a huge phenomenon! I think a lot of players joined sometime during it’s success, for those Reach was the first Halo that those people would experience beeing developed and marketed from ground up, younger kids who were too young to play H3 were finally old enough to preasure their parentes into buying this game for them, and so on. So Reach has a lot of emotional value for many players that are still around today (keep in mind that people like me haven’t had a proper Halo experience in jsut about ten years, many have left…)

> So, if we were able to identify everything that compelled people to go online and play Halo 3 eleven years ago and faithfully reproduced that for Halo: Infinite, there is no guarantee that the results today would be the same, or even similar. Nothing else is similar, especially the market. It’s just unlikely. What if, though, 343i wrote a great campaign for Halo: Infinite, and in that campaign you were able to move and perform as one would reasonably expect a Spartan would, and you had equipment available that made good military sense, and then in multiplayer, in a standard game, everything worked the same way?

I don’t quite understand? So you are talking about bringing back H3-style equipment and removing Sprint/Thrust/etc, or keeping Sprint/Thrust/etc?! Again, definitions of what a spartan is and could do differ from person to person.

You will not make Halo successfull again by just bringing back classic movement, you still need a good game overall and Halo still wouldn’t be where it used to be simply due having more competition but what a classic movement could do (and I think I tried to say it already) is create a community that is not as “toxic” as the one now. Would you, as a new player, rather invest into.a game where it’s youtubers have to complain 24/7 about gameplay and art design because they feel disconected from the game they once loved or would you prefer a more “harmonic” situation?

> After all, isn’t this thread ultimately about going back to what worked (based on sales and popularity)?

People try to justify changes by what worked in the past, in reality, this thread is about going back to what was fun to play (in the eye of those argueing in favor of it)…

> 2533274797640604;1188:
> - Halo CE is 3-Tap and it’s absurd to even joke that it’s weapon sandbox is anything near balanced. If you’re not running pistols you better be sniping. Any modern game with that state of weapon balance would be ripped apart.
> - CE’s arena maps only barely worked for the game’s core mechanics. The BTB maps couldn’t even allow for tanks to be allowed seriously (the effect of which greatly influenced BTB map design in H2 and H3 to value segmented regions in the first place). So if we’re talking H1 MP, we’re really talking arena maps and nothing more.

I don’t really have time to get into the other stuff but I find this constant bashing of HCE rather annoying…

  • How is the sandbox not balanced? You got a good utility weapon, that functions well in it’s role, an usefull short range AR, your regular snipe/rockets, PP/PR that do actually bring a new layer to the sandbox rather then beeing reskined version of their UNSC counterparts and, well the needler…
    The only really unique thing that is missing from HCE but is there in other Halos is the sword.
    All the other weapons are rather redundant, you really don’t need 5 weapons to fill the same role… (That does not mean I don’t want new weapons! But I don’t need to have pistol, BR, DMR, LR, CC to play moslty the same)
    I know that the psitol has a stigma of beeing “OP” among newer player but if you ask experienced players that have actually invested time into all Halo games (especially hardcore and competitive modes), many would say that the HCE psitol does the best job at beeing a well balanced utility starting weapon. Low optimal TTK, high avarage TTK.
    Keep in mind that “modern” games follow a vastly different style of gameplay…Halo’s sandbox wouldn’t work in Battlefield but neither would BF’s sandbox in Halo.
    -What do you mean by “couldn’t even allow for tanks”? And what do you mean by “maps only barely worked for the game’s core mechanics”? That’s highly subjective but to me, HCE had the best 2v2 maps and some of the bast 4v4 maps of all.

> 2594261035368257;1187:
> I’m a bit on the fence about assassinations… the animation itself takes up time, for little more than gratuity’s sake, but at least it isn’t time completely wasted as you get the kill, so at least you accomplish the offensive task it’s designed for.

I see no problem with assassinations, they are optional, you can still do the same thing without the animation.

> 2533274798957786;1192:
> I suppose this is as good a time as any to point out the fundamental difference between Halo and Call of Duty (CoD being the game that really went head-to-head with Halo and they were often compared to each other by both communities) is that Halo has shields. That’s an Armor Ability, and a get-out-of-jail-free card.
>
>
>
> The other thing is that there was no thought given to multiplayer during the development of Halo CE. Therefore, there was no effort to have the game perform magnificently in a multiplayer setting.By that I mean things like weapon balance, equal starts, golden triangle, BMS, or whatever else you’re supposed to mix together to get classic movement mechanics. A lot of what is attributed to Halo’s unique multiplayer experience has more to do with the character meeting the criteria of an augmented human wearing fusion-powered intelligent armor with built-in shields. Halo CE’s multiplayer was simply the campaign settings in a multiplayer environment.

Shields armor ability: First off there’s just that little catch of “definition”. I’d argue the general concensus on what an Armor Ability is, is the latch on items which allow a Player to do different actions based on which item is latched on to the player. Something the player manually activate, nothing which is automatic like shields. Pretty much everything that has been added which are player activated, have been called “Ability”, Armor Ability and Spartan Ability.

Shields are a mechanic, a player trait. Their two functionalities in the games are. Recharge if low, and disable headshots as long as not all remaining energy of the shields are taken down with a high enough damage which bleeds through and damages the head.

Then you may want to actually explain why they are get-out-of-jail-cards, I have my inclings but you do the talking. And how it is an “ability” fitting in with the general definition of how Halo has handled “abilities”.

No thought to multiplayer: Tsassi already commented on this, but I have to ask. If there was no thought to multiplayer, why are there a plethora of different maps and quite a few game modes all compatible with the maps themselves? Not only that, but each game mode had a range of options to alter, even weapon type spawns on map if I’m not mistaken. And adjustable player traits, a lot of them, if I recll, even vampiric abilities were present as an option in Halp CE Multiplayer.

For a mode with no thought behind it, the mode sure had a lot of content and options available. Far more so than many other games pre-dating Halo CE, and coming after it.

> - How is the sandbox not balanced? You got a good utility weapon, that functions well in it’s role, an usefull short range AR, your regular snipe/rockets, PP/PR that do actually bring a new layer to the sandbox rather then beeing reskined version of their UNSC counterparts and, well the needler…
> The only really unique thing that is missing from HCE but is there in other Halos is the sword.

It’s not balanced because there’s no tactical reason not to use pistol in every conceivable situation other than no ammo or boredom. You can talk up the utility of AR or Plasma whatevers all you want; then and now if you’re playing H1 seriously, you’re running pistols and holding down rocks, snipes, and whichever power up. It’s competitively irresponsible not to.

> All the other weapons are rather redundant, you really don’t need 5 weapons to fill the same role… (That does not mean I don’t want new weapons! But I don’t need to have pistol, BR, DMR, LR, CC to play moslty the same)

The rifles didn’t play the same.

  • BR is the most flexible at range and also close quarters.
  • DMR was most lethal with patient firing at a longer range.
  • LR had high impact zoomed and BR like utility from the hip (ruined in H5).
  • CC was the highest single shot RoF, a DMR for the impatient.

While they all are meant to function at range, diversion of the archetype offered players options that expressed their playstyle. Meanwhile in H1, you have this one crazy pistol.

> I know that the psitol has a stigma of beeing “OP” among newer player but if you ask experienced players that have actually invested time into all Halo games (especially hardcore and competitive modes), many would say that the HCE psitol does the best job at beeing a well balanced utility starting weapon. Low optimal TTK, high avarage TTK.

I am an experienced player that invested time in every Halo competitively. The pistol ruled H1. The long rifle weapons did not play the same.

It’s actually kind of absurd that you would dismiss those rifles as homogenous while defending the sole work horse of H1.

> -What do you mean by “couldn’t even allow for tanks”?

Tanks dominated in H1 BTB maps because back then they were geographically linear, with insane sight lines perfect for a machine that deletes you when it sees you. In Halo 2 steps were taken to diversify BTB layout to segment the map using more differing heights and cover. Go in MCC and look at the difference between Blood Gulch and its sequel, Coagulation for exactly this distinction. The changes culminated in the zenith of classic Halo BTB map design, Valhalla/Ragnarok. Especially built to segment areas of the map for unique encounters that couldn’t bleed into each other unless you controlled the center hill - which rewards you with control of most of the map. Bungie was very clear about this exact intention in a few blog entries before and after H3 launched.

Remember when Forge World launched and it had Bloid Gulch tucked in? Everybody was fan-girling while I was like the only dude who remembered exactly why they stopped making maps like Blood Gulch. Know what happened? Tank was removed because it was OP on that H1 remake map, and DMRs and snipes dominated - just as I warned players right after RvB did that promo reveal.

That’s what I mean by the design not allowing for tanks.

> And what do you mean by “maps only barely worked for the game’s core mechanics”?

Due to the game not being online it took a while for awareness to spread that the pistol was absolutely required to remain competitive. Over time my weekly LAN parties would slowly but surely get people hip to the game, with no patches in sight. So places like Hang Em High or Damnation was utterly dwindled into hallway firefights, due to power weapons and power ups often placed out in the open. Bungie simply wasn’t prepared for this design wise and it’s no coincidence they buried the pistol since then.

> That’s highly subjective but to me, HCE had the best 2v2 maps and some of the bast 4v4 maps of all.

Removing the pistol, yes they are otherwise really good arena maps.

> 2533274797640604;1197:
> > - How is the sandbox not balanced? You got a good utility weapon, that functions well in it’s role, an usefull short range AR, your regular snipe/rockets, PP/PR that do actually bring a new layer to the sandbox rather then beeing reskined version of their UNSC counterparts and, well the needler…
> > The only really unique thing that is missing from HCE but is there in other Halos is the sword.
>
> It’s not balanced because there’s no tactical reason not to use pistol in every conceivable situation other than no ammo or boredom. You can talk up the utility of AR or Plasma whatevers all you want; then and now if you’re playing H1 seriously, you’re running pistols and holding down rocks, snipes, and whichever power up. It’s competitively irresponsible not to.

How does that differ from any other Halo? You’re running BR (H2/H3), DMR (Reach), BR or DMR (H4) or Pistol/BR/DMR/LR or CC (5) and try to control rockets, snipes, and power ups? H5 kinda broke with this formula by heavily buffing automatics though and yes, there have been other (semi-)power weapons been added to the mix of rockets/snipe but the principle is still the same.

> The rifles didn’t play the same.
> - BR is the most flexible at range and also close quarters.
> - DMR was most lethal with patient firing at a longer range.
> - LR had high impact zoomed and BR like utility from the hip (ruined in H5).
> - CC was the highest single shot RoF, a DMR for the impatient.
> While they all are meant to function at range, diversion of the archetype offered players options that expressed their playstyle. Meanwhile in H1, you have this one crazy pistol.

Yes, they do feature minor changes in their stats but does that really impact how you play the game in any meaningfull way?
Did anyone actually run past an BR without picking it up because the DMR fits your playstyle better? Or would you pick it up knowing it an upgrade to your pistol and not much different to any other rifle? To use your own words: it would be competitively irresponsible not to…
Though I have to admit, the high ROF of the CC makes it the most distict version of a semi automatic weapon, I could see justification to keep this around
Maybe things look different in WZ, but not in 2v2/4v4…

> I am an experienced player that invested time in every Halo competitively. The pistol ruled H1. The long rifle weapons did not play the same.It’s actually kind of absurd that you would dismiss those rifles as homogenous while defending the sole work horse of H1.

As in any other Halo the utility precision is “king” but I find myself using AR and PR a lot more in HCE then I’m using anyother non-precision weapon in any other Halo.

> Tanks dominated in H1 BTB maps because back then they were geographically linear

Thanks for the clarification

> Due to the game not being online it took a while for awareness to spread that the pistol was absolutely required to remain competitive

Again, it’s the same with any other Halo and, to me, the staple of what Halos core gameplay is all about. After all, MLG kinda tried to replicate the HCE style of gameplay with both H2 and H3 (and Reach as well, as far as I know?!)

If the game needs to be faster just increase base movement speed. I’d heard somewhere that H2’s base movement speed is actually close to H5’s sprint speed, so go figure.
Clamber: nah.
Hover: Interesting mechanic and adds to the movement complexity so I’m cool with it.
ADS: HERESY! Keep the animations for weapons with zoom. But don’t change the performance for the automatic weapons and why did the AR ever have ADS when it doesn’t have a scope and it links to your helmet display.
Ground pound: is an interesting tack-on to hover
Booster Jets: Its ability to instantly change your velocity mixes up fights but just not so powerful this time.

Bring back BTB for real this time with proper maps, more open areas in maps and make the sandbox work for extended range this time.

> 2533274798957786;1181:
> Indeed, I started my end of this discussion by declaring that using the Halo 3 engine would solve the problem.

…you mean how Halo 4 and H5G did?

> 2533274937464985;1199:
> I’d heard somewhere that H2’s base movement speed is actually close to H5’s sprint speed, so go figure.

I think I might know where you heard that from, but it’s not really correct. Sprint speed (in all of the games) is 1.5 times the speed of Halo CE through 3’s BMS. What you might have heard was that the maps have grown in size so that you still need the same time from one end to the other with sprint as you did in earlier games with BMS (on remake maps at least).